Ganondorf's Match-ups discussion. (2nd Page Updated.)

[Clai]

So if a Shiek player locks us from like 0% to 90%, he/she is . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . dumb?

No, Sakurai is dumb for making the mechanics that allow Sheik to lock Ganondorf from 0% to 90%. All the player is doing is taking advantage of Sakurai's dumbness, because honestly, who wouldn't?

This game needs less cheap stuff, not more; even if both end up resulting in Ganondorf having a fairer fight against other characters.

 

[Z1GMA]

No, Sakurai is dumb for making the mechanics that allow Sheik to lock Ganondorf from 0% to 90%

*HighFive*

 

[smashkng]

Ganon has a way to beat Falco, it's put him off stage. There he is extremely easily thunderstomped when using up b because stomp outpriorise it and has a lot of start up so every time Falco gets oftstage kill him because it's the best way to beat Falco. Gimping is where Ganon beat Falco who is perfect candidate for getting gimped by Ganon. Still Falco's favour by much because of laser and chain grab.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon has a way to beat Falco, it's put him off stage. There he is extremely easily thunderstomped when using up b because stomp outpriorise it and has a lot of start up so every time Falco gets oftstage kill him because it's the best way to beat Falco. Gimping is where Ganon beat Falco who is perfect candidate for getting gimped by Ganon. Still Falco's favour by much because of laser and chain grab.

I'm not gonna deny its not that hard to spike falco, but i would much rather try to tipman spike a falco, because his recovery is so bad if he gets below the stage hes pretty much dead, our D-air is like over kill (i suppose it always is). BUT Falco would loooove to get Ganon off the stage also, if we jump off we risk being semi-spiked by his Side-B, and not to mention falco has one of the overall best spikes in the game(fastest, somewhat powerful, easy to use). so going off stage vs a Falco is not an auto-win situation by any means..

I would say a good Ganon could easily spike/gimp a Falco, and a Good Falco could VERY easily spike/gimp a Ganon...

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's Up air can be also used for gimp and it's really quick. Falco beat because he can camp Ganon easily and the chain spike. The dair of Falco needs a not very big sweetspot. Falco's dair hasn't good range either and Ganon's has no sweetspot and Ganon's is the best because it's reliable and often a OHKO (KO even at 0%). Speed rival Marth's dair and Marth's one has more power. Ganon's dair goes through illusion, this is why I say it's dangerous to Falco be offstage.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon's Up air can be also used for gimp and it's really quick. Falco beat because he can camp Ganon easily and the chain spike. The dair of Falco needs a not very big sweetspot. Falco's dair hasn't good range either and Ganon's has no sweetspot and Ganon's is the best because it's reliable and often a OHKO (KO even at 0%). Speed rival Marth's dair and Marth's one has more power. Ganon's dair goes through illusion, this is why I say it's dangerous to Falco be offstage.

Ummm... well those are like 7 unrelated sentences i dont really know what to say...
Ill take it one sentence at a time.


1) U-air can gimp..alright, U-air is quick.... yep

2) Falco can Camp.... i think we can agree on that....

3) Falcos spike is good... yes

4) Ummmmm... sure

5) Thats not true, Ganon has the most poweful spike in the game (ness is second)

6) Falco sucks offstage regardless, spiking him out of illusion is not easy to do, and you risk being semi-spiked...

 

[smashkng]

Ummm... well those are like 7 unrelated sentences i dont really know what to say...
Ill take it one sentence at a time.


1) U-air can gimp..alright, U-air is quick.... yep

2) Falco can Camp.... i think we can agree on that....

3) Falcos spike is good... yes

4) Ummmmm... sure

5) Thats not true, Ganon has the most poweful spike in the game (ness is second)

6) Falco sucks offstage regardless, spiking him out of illusion is not easy to do, and you risk being semi-spiked...

I didn't say it's the strongest, I said it's the best.

At about 25% or more it's already more powerful than Ness' one.
The most powerful at 0% is not Ness' dair, it's Luigi's taunt.
At 38% or more Ganon's dair is stronger than Luigi's taunt.

Though Ganon's dair still has KO power even on someone at 0%. That's why I say the best.

Illusion spike is not much to worry in most cases because most times it's cancelable almost immediately.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Smashkng, what are you arguing about? Ganon is a very bad character, with a couple of impossible match-ups, Falco is one of them. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[smashkng]

Falco is nearly impossible. Ganon at least has good range, ridiculous power, weight and ridiculous spike.

 

[Squirrely]

I only hate Falco because of his grab game.
Same with IC's, Dedede, Olimar and Yoshi.

Although with Falco I can usually space myself long enough to either kill him or get myself in the mid percentages where chain grabbing and junk becomes a non-issue. So it's not a match-up I mind too much.

About those posts above...

90% of the time Falco gets knocked off stage he'll be able to phantasm back. If he mixes up landing on stage and going for the ledge you'll have to play a guessing game on whether to put a boot down his throat (f-tilt) or insta-hog the ledge. If you guess right, he dies. If you guess wrong he makes it back but you're in decent shape as well.

The 10% of the time he can't phantasm back, he's either already exploding off the side or waiting for you to stomp his rediculously slow, short-range predictable up-b.

Down-b for super awesome spikes when he's forced to use up-b.
You won't die since his flame will knock you up after smashing into his head and you can easily recover from there.

Stomping Falco's phantasm is **** hard to pull off since he's only vulnerable I think in the very beginning of it, halfway through it and at the very end. Mucho props if you can stomp spike him when he's getting back via phantasm (his side-b btw)

I've yet to be killed by being phantasm spiked, but I've also had some retardedly close calls.

Also, I think Falco's spike is tricky to use, personally. I can only safely nail someone when I do a rising spike, like after the chain grab shenanigans or otherwise just after a jump in general.


As an addendum, we really need to work on ways around guarding against grabs in general.
Several fights would become so much more bearable if we could find a way around that crap.

 

[PhantomX]

Why do we have a matchup guide and then a matchup discussion? >_>

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why do we have a matchup guide and then a matchup discussion? >_>

I made this thread specifically to discuss Ganon's match-up ratios. The guide is, well, a guide.