Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[CORY]

so, redid my raw data collection for afc again.

some numbers changed and i haven't compiled it into a useful form yet, but some things of note: you can now grab ganon out of aerial flame choke. the ditto just got even stupider, gg. fox can still tech two frames before you can act. he still can't shine you out of your own aerial flame choke (afaik).

and oddly, it looks like you can't di away from him, nearly as far as you could before? i could've just been doing that part incorrectly, since i was only holding straight away for the last hit's di, which very well may be incorrect di angling, but characters weren't going nearly as far away as i remember them moving during my 3.5 testing. this may actually be a really big buff, since it means almost all of your options are available, regardless of how they di?

and on that note, i was able to get the launch angle to be reversed, i.e. they would launch behind ganon's back, instead of in front of him. i couldn't get it working very consistently, but i wasn't too worried on it at this point. i think you can make things work this way by b-reversing it or something? if anyone has any ideas on this, let me know. i'll post an updated list of properly compiled raw frame data later, probably this weekend.

 

[DMG]

Yeah something seems different, it may be new throw release points or some bug / undocumented change but it appears people can attempt to DI behind Ganon somewhat after Aerial Side B (or more than prior patches). I say attempt, because while they end up behind you, it's such an insignificant amount that often you can just turn around grab or jab without any issue at all. Before, DI inside seemed to place people often in a semi ambigous state of being "inside" Ganon's body, and possible in front or behind depending on character size? Sometimes it was actually tricky: I remember doing Jab and being surprised at which direction they flew afterwards.

Now, DI inside more clearly puts them behind or can put them behind, but not out of follow up reach. That angle change may have nerfed their ability to DI away to avoid follow ups? I don't wanna believe that it's merely placebo, since it seems very legit and not some obscure facet that people mistake to have been changed. Everyone Air Side B's with Ganon, would be hard to think it's super placebo lol

If throw angles are the same, then it may be something related to Ganondorf's positioning being subtly different. Like when you move forward after the grab, it might be possible that when he hits the ground, he "slides" forward more than prior patch and so it appears they end up behind you when in reality the difference was Ganon moving forward more on his own during the maneuver. Magus or someone probably has the secret answers

 

[CORY]

well, what was happening was that i would go into debug, and afc, then frame advance. when you hit the ground, there are 5 hitboxes, each 1frame long, 1frame apart, then a slight delay, and a final hitbox that lasts 2frames and then release. i was holding straight away from ganon at the 2nd frame of that hitbox, and occasionally characters would end up behind ganon, rather than in front. even when i repeated using the same setup.

thinking back, i think some of those i had ganon do a jump over crossup into the afc, so he might've been in the "b-reverse" state or whatever, which means we might be able to control it, which is really kind of awesome. it means we might be able to get anyone who's in the air at least 5 frames to release behind us, so we can first hit of utilt and lead them into the second hit for the money shot, since it seems being slightly above and slightly behind ganon (but not at the furthest rear range of utilt) will pop them into the stomp, rather than safely away from him so they can counter attack easily.

*all of that is in reference to them launching behind, rather than in front of ganon, which the first part of what you were saying seems to be referencing.

as for the general lack of distance on di/drift, yeah, i'm leaning towards the universal grab release point adjustments putting them closer to him or something. there might have been an undocumented change to the angle that someone didn't know happened before the patch notes, but that seems less likely. i'm gonna try to mess with it more in debug today.

 

[CORY]

**** the police, here's the updated raw data:
airtime
-2: Fox
+1: Falco
+2: Wolf
+4: Bowser, Falcon, ZSS, Lucas
+5: Diddy, MK
+6: Wario, Shiek, Tink, Lucario, Roy
+7: DK, Link, Squirtle
+8: Ganon, Pika, Sonic
+9: Yoshi, Zard, DDD, Ike, Olimar, GnW
+10: Mario, Pit, Snake
+11: Ic's, Ness, ROB
+12: Marth
+13: Ivy
+14: Luigi, Samus, Kirby
+15: Peach, Mewtwo
+18: Zelda
+21: Jiggs

Followups:
None: Fox(-2), Falco(1), Wolf(2)
Only Jab: Bowser(4), Falcon(4), ZSS(4), Lucas(4)
Plust Utilt: Diddy(5), MK(5), Wario(6), Shiek(6), Tink(6), Lucario(6), Roy(6)
Plus grab and Dash attack: DK(7), Link(7), Squirtle(7), Ganon(8), Pika(8), Sonic(8)
Plus Ftilt: Yoshi(9), Zard(9), DDD(9), Ike(9), Olimar(9), GnW(9)
Plust Dtilt and Nair: Mario(10), Pit(10), Snake(10)
Plus Dash Grab and Uair: IC's(11), Ness(11), ROB(11), Marth(12), Ivy(13)
Plus Down B: Luigi(14), Samus(14), Kirby(14), Peach(15), Mewtwo(15)
Plus Side B: Zelda(18), Jiggs(21)

Addendums:
-all numbers in parenthesis are the amount of airborne frames the opponent is in before they can tech.
-anything higher than 14 frames of airtime allows the opponent the chance to do something out of it, as AFC only has 14 frames of hitstun.
-any aerials, dash grab, and dash attack assume frame perfection and instant activation of said attacks (on this note, the dash grab may not be accurate for the first possible frames, since i don't know if you have to dash for one frame before you can start the dash grab)
-down b and side b don't account for travel time, just raw start up frames vs. Airborne frames.
-an extension of the above: i haven't properly tested di and drifting, so everything here is just pure numbers. If someone would like to help with testing, go for it.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Yeah idk I feel like the wavebounce grounded flame choke is so good. I stopped using Flame Choke for awhile but like, I may start using it again in my play. It's nifty if you want to punishing shielding but can't get a grab out. Just requires da reads.

But what do I know I hardly play :'(

 

[RelaxAlax]

Oh CORY with that swag! I'll need to check that out right now! I wanna style so hard with Flame Choke >:]

 

[Airrider]

Today I experimented a little with SH bair to perfect waveland and SH upair to perfect waveland. I think it opens up for some cool possibilities. On a CPU Fox set to 25% I landed Dair>SH Upair Perfect Waveland>SH Upair Perfect Waveland>Upair. This seems to work with bad DI (I haven't checked any frames). On Marth managed to do Dair>SH Upair PW>F-tilt and grab.

SH bair>PW is easier than SH Upair>PW. It's kinda like DJ>PW. On certain characters you can do SH bair PW>grab at low percentages (maybe not so legit). Anyhow, you can either chase your opponent or retreat with a PW after a bair if you want to. A swag way to grab ledge is SH bair PW>fastfall to ledge.

Those where just some thoughts on utilisations. I don't if others have already written about this. If there are videos of people flashing these moves I'd love to see em!

 

[DMG]

It may be decent depending on how different (slower/faster) it is vs some of the auto cancel windows on his aerials. On some aerials, gut says you're best off trying to get the auto cancel.

 

[Airrider]

Yeah. A situation I found where you chase your opponent is if you bair a standing marth at 30%. You can SH bair PW>f-tilt before he lands (probably not if they combo DI). The only other punish after bair I found was late L-cancel bair>punish missed tech.

I think it could be neat is such a situation.

 

[CORY]

i like sh-bair-wl to mess up timings on people. space bair the be safe on shield, get them used to you not being close enough to grab, so they respect it by holding shield, then wl behind them and grab. or if they respect it by rolling away, wl into f/dtilt. the wl is long enough that you can punish most oos options, but you have to get them to respect that spacing, by either wling away to make yourself safe, so they try to chase, or by just spacing out so that they get it in their head that it's not worth it to try something immediately.

 

[Taytertot]

i like sh-bair-wl to mess up timings on people. space bair the be safe on shield, get them used to you not being close enough to grab, so they respect it by holding shield, then wl behind them and grab. or if they respect it by rolling away, wl into f/dtilt. the wl is long enough that you can punish most oos options, but you have to get them to respect that spacing, by either wling away to make yourself safe, so they try to chase, or by just spacing out so that they get it in their head that it's not worth it to try something immediately.

that sounds great. maybe if they arent respecting the WL away and trying to approach after then you could bair>WL away>flame choke.

 

[bubbaking]

I just noticed on the frame data thread that apparently bair and nair have the same frame advantage on shield when AC'd (although I'm still a little confused about the math). This sounds really good, but I don't see people abusing this, even though it has a better htibox than, like, everything. Any thoughts on using RAR/reverse float AC bair as an approach or pressure tool?

 

[Taytertot]

I just noticed on the frame data thread that apparently bair and nair have the same frame advantage on shield when AC'd (although I'm still a little confused about the math). This sounds really good, but I don't see people abusing this, even though it has a better htibox than, like, everything. Any thoughts on using RAR/reverse float AC bair as an approach or pressure tool?

that sounds pretty awesome. the only issue i see in the frame advantage is that while they have the same frame advantage, nair hits from farther away which makes it safer whereas bair forces ganon to be closer before being able to hit the shield which would give the opponent less space to cover in order to punish ganon for the hit on shield. unless its positive on shield or only -3 or so which would give ganon enough time to avoid shield grab afterward.

Edit: holy crap its +1 on shield?! nevermind what i said above, we should be using this!

 

[CORY]

It also puts your back to the opponent, limiting quick options (rip reverse first hit of utilt tossing everyone in the game under the stomp...).

There's also the bit about timing. Ac Nair is easy to land because you kinda just mash it out and it works, delaying just a bit to get it perfect. Bair would have a longer delay, likely, so you'd have to use a stricter timing to hit it. (This is assumption stemming from being able to wl bair from a short hop. The ac window might very well be in a different spot than the iasa frames...)

 

[Bazkip]

Is backthrow useful at all? Doesn't seem like there's ever any reason to use it.

 

[bubbaking]

To get the opponent offstage? I sometimes use it against FFers at high %'s, since they're easier to edgeguard. The real question for me is what is the point of using fthrow?

It also puts your back to the opponent, limiting quick options (rip reverse first hit of utilt tossing everyone in the game under the stomp...).

There's also the bit about timing. Ac Nair is easy to land because you kinda just mash it out and it works, delaying just a bit to get it perfect. Bair would have a longer delay, likely, so you'd have to use a stricter timing to hit it. (This is assumption stemming from being able to wl bair from a short hop. The ac window might very well be in a different spot than the iasa frames...)

Alright, hear me out on this one because it's mostly theorycraft. Pressing the float early in your jump stops your ascent, right (floatdash comes to mind)? What if we simply pressed float at the right height so that we didn't have to wait to get an AC bair? Btw, isn't turnaround only one frame?

 

[CORY]

fthrow is good for di mixups if people are trying to di straight away to get out of dthrow chains to send them out at a nasty angle, since i'm pretty sure it's also actually unreactable. i'm not sure if you can use a b/fthrow mixup setup to get a really good angle to setup for aerials, i think you're better off just dthrowing in that case.

pressing float also incurs a 14 frame commitment before you can do anything other than dj or reflect out of : / it can work as part of a general mixup (fast/delayed aerial type of stuff) but if you do it a lot, you'll likely get hit out of the float, especially since you're low to the ground in that setup.

not that i think it's a terrible idea! it's good for mixing stuff up, like i said, just has to be used as such!

i don't now the physics of turnaround, tbh... i'll have to test that in frame advance (one day... i haven't played any 3.6 since i went and did my frame data collecting, tbh. partly why i don't want to critique anyone's stuff, since i'm not sure how general character changes have affected the meta overall...). i was honestly mostly thinking about it in terms of input difficulty. to be safest, you'd have to turn and jab, which could easily become and ftilt (not terribly unsafe, spacing dependent) or fsmash (really not that safe...). if you're setting them up for gfc, using the pullback to dodge the grab attempt, it'll probably not be an issue.

 

[Taytertot]

turnaround has got to be 1 to 2 frames (pretty sure). fthrow has a lot more knockback. so if for some reason dthrow isnt a good option and youve grabbed them while facing the ledge fthrow will send them pretty far out. (if you grab roy or marth out of the air after they dj, fthrow could be a solid kill near the ledge).

mixing up ac bair and bair wl on shield would have some nice punishes i imagine. especially if they have crappy OoS options (like ike does). since its +1 on shield we wouldnt need to make it frame perfect in order to be safe because most grabs are frame 5 or later and even the shortest jump kneebend animation is 3 frames idk what the shortest upB OoS option is but we'd probably have enough time to shield. granted if youre off by a few frames you might have to just shield/spotdodge which isnt great.

 

[Magus420]

I think you could probably use b-throw in a situation where they're going to be DIing d-throw away to land on a platform. B-throw them instead and they'll miss the platform, be DIing it in, and you can f-air/u-smash or something. B-throw at the ledge at low damage should be sometimes useful since it has a lot of frame advantage and they stay close enough at that percent for run off aerial/dj aerial out of it. Even if it wouldn't combo on DI behind I think they'd be in a tight spot to avoid being hit while offstage and dying, especially if it catches them DJing out of it.

 

[Bazkip]

Based Magus

Though actually I'm surprised he didn't correct some of the things you said @ T Taytertot . Getting grabbed refreshes your double jump, and most grabs are frame 7 (none are faster).

 

[DMG]

I didn't think Bthrow would have that much advantage, even with a favorable DI angle. Although run off Uair would be exceptionally fast.

 

[Taytertot]

Based Magus

Though actually I'm surprised he didn't correct some of the things you said @ T Taytertot . Getting grabbed refreshes your double jump, and most grabs are frame 7 (none are faster).

oh i didnt know that. ok well i guess that wouldnt work for fthrow then though fthrow can kill at higher percents near the ledge so i guess that could be useful. i was kinda guessing when i said grabs were frame 5 or slower buts its good to know that 7 is the faster time.

 

[CORY]

7 is the standard. afaik, unless you're zelda, nontether grabs are all 7 frames. tethers vary, but they're all slower to activate than standard grabs.

 

[Taytertot]

i guess some of my frame data knowledge from brawl i assumed would be similar in PM like grab speed and i believe grabbing doesnt refresh dj in brawl (or at least it doesnt if the character is short enough that you can get an aerial grab release on them). i could be wrong though.

 

[CORY]

i've had weird experiences with grabs and stuff like that, so i couldn't comment. i know in melee, all grabs would refresh your jumps, so i'm assuming that would be the way pm works.

i do know all standard grabs, sans zelda bcuz malay (?), are active frame 7, though.

 

[Bazkip]

i guess some of my frame data knowledge from brawl i assumed would be similar in PM like grab speed and i believe grabbing doesnt refresh dj in brawl (or at least it doesnt if the character is short enough that you can get an aerial grab release on them). i could be wrong though.

Yeah in Brawl it wouldn't refresh your double jump, I also don't remember if it was all grabs or just aerial grab release but it definitely didn't occur in some situations. As @ CORY said though PM matches Melee in that it'll always refresh double jump.

Most grabs in Brawl were frame 6.

 

[DMG]

Brawl broke the rules. Frame 6 grabs, but 0-2 frames variable input lag? Soccer Guy are you listening

 

[Taytertot]

Yeah in Brawl it wouldn't refresh your double jump, I also don't remember if it was all grabs or just aerial grab release but it definitely didn't occur in some situations. As @ CORY said though PM matches Melee in that it'll always refresh double jump.

Most grabs in Brawl were frame 6.

yeah i remember losing stocks from that in brawl.

ok i guess i was off a frame. either that or marth happened to have a faster then average grab in brawl.

 

[Yallo42]

i do know all standard grabs, sans zelda bcuz malay (?), are active frame 7, though.

Bowser's standing grab is active frame 9-10

 

[CORY]

The hell pmdt/sakurai?

 

[Taytertot]

out of curiosity, what do you all think are the parts of the top ganon players gameplay (melee or pm since melee ganon has a very similar meta) could be compiled into the "ideal" ganon strategy? I feel that each of the most well known ganon's has an area that they excel at and could be melded to others'.

 

[Bazkip]

out of curiosity, what do you all think are the parts of the top ganon players gameplay (melee or pm since melee ganon has a very similar meta) could be compiled into the "ideal" ganon strategy? I feel that each of the most well known ganon's has an area that they excel at and could be melded to others'.

Kage's everything
Bizz's wavelands
Bidooof's float usage

That's about it, really.

 

[Taytertot]

Kage's everything
Bizz's wavelands
Bidooof's float usage

That's about it, really.

as someone who has gotten into competitive melee pretty late, i havent seen a lot of kage. and since youre more or less saying that kage does just about everything right, how does he play?

i definitely agree with you about bizz's wavelands and i might add his platform cancels as well.

havent seen much of bidooof so i'll have to check out his float usage.

what about junebug's ganon? i know he doesnt bust it out much but the few matches ive seen were pretty solid. he seems like hes good at playing it safe as ganon which i all too often dont see from pm ganon players of the youtube matches ive watched.

ive also seen maybe 2 games of hungry headcrab's and they were good but ive yet to watch them with the intent to analysis his strategy.

 

[Bazkip]

as someone who has gotten into competitive melee pretty late, i havent seen a lot of kage. and since youre more or less saying that kage does just about everything right, how does he play?

i definitely agree with you about bizz's wavelands and i might add his platform cancels as well.

havent seen much of bidooof so i'll have to check out his float usage.

what about junebug's ganon? i know he doesnt bust it out much but the few matches ive seen were pretty solid. he seems like hes good at playing it safe as ganon which i all too often dont see from pm ganon players of the youtube matches ive watched.

ive also seen maybe 2 games of hungry headcrab's and they were good but ive yet to watch them with the intent to analysis his strategy.

You can find a bunch of vids of Kage from Montreal weeklies and other tournaments on this youtube account. Most of the vids of him are Melee but there's also some PM sets as well.

He's also been to a lot of tournaments in Ontario so you can look up vids from Get On My Level 2014/2015, The Come Up, McSmashter 4, No Man's LAN 10 and Enthusiast Gaming Live.
American tournaments to look for would be Apex 2014, SWEET XIX and BUST 2.
And of course there's the recent Salty Suite moneymatch where he utterly destroyed Bizzarro Flame.

Bidooof is a fleeting creature, he rarely shows up to tournaments and plays a myriad of characters, so it's hard to see a lot of any one character. We were however fortunate enough to get a Ganon ditto set between him and Kage recently, so you should definitely watch that. You can also check his youtube where he's got plenty of matches/clips from Netplay.

Headcrab and June's Ganon are definitely solid but I don't really think they're pushing the envelope much, but I also haven't seen much of them lately so I could be wrong.

 

[Taytertot]

You can find a bunch of vids of Kage from Montreal weeklies and other tournaments on this youtube account. Most of the vids of him are Melee but there's also some PM sets as well.

He's also been to a lot of tournaments in Ontario so you can look up vids from Get On My Level 2014/2015, The Come Up, McSmashter 4, No Man's LAN 10 and Enthusiast Gaming Live.
American tournaments to look for would be Apex 2014, SWEET XIX and BUST 2.
And of course there's the recent Salty Suite moneymatch where he utterly destroyed Bizzarro Flame.

Bidooof is a fleeting creature, he rarely shows up to tournaments and plays a myriad of characters, so it's hard to see a lot of any one character. We were however fortunate enough to get a Ganon ditto set between him and Kage recently, so you should definitely watch that. You can also check his youtube where he's got plenty of matches/clips from Netplay.

Headcrab and June's Ganon are definitely solid but I don't really think they're pushing the envelope much, but I also haven't seen much of them lately so I could be wrong.

thanks i'll check it out!

 

[CORY]

something i've been thinking about:

so, you can only pivot grab out of a dash, but not your full on run, right? (if wrong, the rest of this post is much less consequential...) since ganon's dash is rather short, you can't always get a lot out of baiting someone into overcommitting, then pivot grabbing them as they come in with the dash attack/grab or aerial or whatever. this can be alleviated a bit more via wd back or dash back-rar-wd back, but only to a certain extent.

but what about b-reverse gfc? you can initiate gfc out of a run in the direction you're moving, but not the other way. however, you can also just b-reverse and not get any extra startup time on it, then go back where you came from with the flame choke.

it's not a cure all, due to the 16 frames of startup, and you do lose the utility of the lunge back, since he's lunging in the direction you're wanting to go in the end, but that swapped lunge direction also gets you to where you want to go faster. it lets you do a bit more spacing in neutral, and also allows you another option for when you're tech chasing someone (say you hit them at mid percents and they landed across the stage and you run up to them), so if you read a get up roll behind you as you run up, you can do wd back [thing], jump back [thing], jump and float backwards[thing], or this (and whatever other options you can come up with since i'm just sorta throwing this out off the top of my head...)

 

[Bazkip]

something i've been thinking about:

so, you can only pivot grab out of a dash, but not your full on run, right? (if wrong, the rest of this post is much less consequential...) since ganon's dash is rather short, you can't always get a lot out of baiting someone into overcommitting, then pivot grabbing them as they come in with the dash attack/grab or aerial or whatever. this can be alleviated a bit more via wd back or dash back-rar-wd back, but only to a certain extent.

but what about b-reverse gfc? you can initiate gfc out of a run in the direction you're moving, but not the other way. however, you can also just b-reverse and not get any extra startup time on it, then go back where you came from with the flame choke.

it's not a cure all, due to the 16 frames of startup, and you do lose the utility of the lunge back, since he's lunging in the direction you're wanting to go in the end, but that swapped lunge direction also gets you to where you want to go faster. it lets you do a bit more spacing in neutral, and also allows you another option for when you're tech chasing someone (say you hit them at mid percents and they landed across the stage and you run up to them), so if you read a get up roll behind you as you run up, you can do wd back [thing], jump back [thing], jump and float backwards[thing], or this (and whatever other options you can come up with since i'm just sorta throwing this out off the top of my head...)

You're talking about the Brawl pivot grab with the different animation? You can do it out of both. Though it's hard to get out it out of dash since, depending on timing, you can also end up Melee pivot standing grab, or simply turning around and dash grabbing. Though all would kinda accomplish the same thing.

Also you kinda lost me on your second part. Do you mean dash forwards > initiate a Flame Choke backwards > B-reverse to ultimately go forwards (the initial direction you were going)? I mean I guess but the extra distance from the lunge isn't that much.

 

[CORY]

yeah, i was talking about the brawl pivot grab that has the different animation.

and that's what i was going for. dash right, go into full run, start gfc right, then reverse it to the left. so, you'll lunge to the left, then go that way as well. the lunge adds about a ganon's worth of distance to the length you go, which can be useful if people are trying to space you out perfectly, and (in this case) it gets you to where you're going a little faster (since you got a head start on the distance, technically).

edit: realized i misread what you were saying, so we're talking about different things, but i also did explain what i was talking about in the previous section anyway, so...

 

[Bazkip]

yeah, i was talking about the brawl pivot grab that has the different animation.

and that's what i was going for. dash right, go into full run, start gfc right, then reverse it to the left. so, you'll lunge to the left, then go that way as well. the lunge adds about a ganon's worth of distance to the length you go, which can be useful if people are trying to space you out perfectly, and (in this case) it gets you to where you're going a little faster (since you got a head start on the distance, technically).

edit: realized i misread what you were saying, so we're talking about different things, but i also did explain what i was talking about in the previous section anyway, so...

We were talking about starting/ending up in different directions but both were on the same page as adding the lunge to the direction you're gonna go, so just two different examples of it really.

Wait except that yours can do done out of run oh **** that's rad.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Some of the information in this thread regarding grabs/refreshing DJ is incorrect as I understand it. In Melee, being thrown refreshes your double jump, but if you are grab released, it only refreshes if you hold up. In Project M, simply being grabbed refreshes your jump. This is why Falcon and Ganon's up-b gives opponents their jumps back.

I posted this in the matchup discussion thread but suppose it would work better here- Is platform camping (specifically top platform camping) a useful tool for Ganon? So far I have had success with it against a number of skilled players. If so, what tools would Ganon use? I imagine dair could be used to challenge people sharking from under the platform, and float could be used as a mixup to bait and punish attacks. Haven't really explored/theorycrafted this too much but would love to hear some discussion.