Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[CORY]

there's a bit more to it than that, though.

imo, step 1 is: are they at kill percent? if yes, go for that wizkick (or whatever will get them off the edge the best).

if no, step 2: what's their fall speed? if they're floaty, you'll likely just want to jab-followup to get damage in on them. alternately, you can straight up grab a few characters (charizard and ddd come to mind, but it might be di specific...) and use that to extend a combo and get damage.

if they're not floaty, then you just need to get the best reads you can on them. sometimes, it's just a wizkick. other times, you can do dtilts/dashattacks and sometimes aerials or grabs.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Speaking of flamechoke what do you think is the best option for ganon out of flamechoke cuz i usually use d-tilt or down-b if at kill %. Any thoughts?

Depends on if its grounded or aerial.

Also on the opponent. Its always tempting to go for our nasty Dairs, but never forget a good jab and forward tilt can set you up for an offstage kill B)

 

[teluoborg]

It really depends on what I want to do.
If I'm near the ledge and I want to build percents then I go for the side B tech chase,
if they don't tech (which is what happens after a few rounds of chain side B) I usually go for down B or Utilt,
if I want to kill it's usually Ftilt and down B.

Don't try to tech chase M2's rolls tho, this guy isn't a psychic for nothing.

 

[CORY]

Don't try to tech chase M2's rolls tho, this guy isn't a psychic for nothing.

troof. they're so long ;x the only thing you can do is hope for the best and go for hard reads.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I feel like I should know this since I've been playing Ganon for a long while, but what stages are good/bad for the old stomper?

 

[Prince Longstrok]

I feel like I should know this since I've been playing Ganon for a long while, but what stages are good/bad for the old stomper?

Low ceiling, and personally i like paltforms as it allows you to chase some characters :D


Just today during some friendlies i was on wario ware and comboed a dair onto a high percentage opponent,and was able to waveland the platforms into an up air for a kill c:

 

[ShadowGanon]

Low ceiling, and personally i like paltforms as it allows you to chase some characters :D


Just today during some friendlies i was on wario ware and comboed a dair onto a high percentage opponent,and was able to waveland the platforms into an up air for a kill c:

So, generally try to pick smaller stages that I can kill people on quicker?

Any specific stages other than WarioWare?

 

[teluoborg]

I like low platforms for Dair to go through and hit an unsuspecting opponent. Like if you time it right you can touch someone who's standing beneath a side platform on YS WW and FoD. Also maybe BF but I'm not too sure.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

So, generally try to pick smaller stages that I can kill people on quicker?

Any specific stages other than WarioWare?

For me, it depends on opponent and such.

On spacies and other FF's, I like to go for stages that have a lot of recovery area horizontally, because I know that GANON can make it back, but they will have trouble. For floaties like Mewtwo and Kirby, I take them to somewhere with a low ceiling, as Ganon is heavier and can avoid the upper blast zone, yet a nice dair on a grounded opponent, down tilt, or upsmash can send the enemy up high.

 

[Nguz95]

Yoshi's, FoD, and PK are the melee counterpicks. Battlefield is also very likeable. Any stages similar to those three will be friendly. There was a good set between Arty and Rat where stage strikes were very important. If I find it, I'll post it.

 

[Yanoss1313]

there's a bit more to it than that, though.

imo, step 1 is: are they at kill percent? if yes, go for that wizkick (or whatever will get them off the edge the best).

if no, step 2: what's their fall speed? if they're floaty, you'll likely just want to jab-followup to get damage in on them. alternately, you can straight up grab a few characters (charizard and ddd come to mind, but it might be di specific...) and use that to extend a combo and get damage.

if they're not floaty, then you just need to get the best reads you can on them. sometimes, it's just a wizkick. other times, you can do dtilts/dashattacks and sometimes aerials or grabs.

i've found at mid percents a jab can leave many characters in perfect DACUS range, not to be relied upon, but can be very sexy if they don't expect it.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I feel like I should know this since I've been playing Ganon for a long while, but what stages are good/bad for the old stomper?

for me it's battlefield and it's clones (Yoshi's, kirby's, etc) most of the time, mainly for platform, wave-landing shenanigans.

Edit: oops, double post, my bad

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

Ya most of the time if i can i go to smashville

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ya most of the time if i can i go to smashville

I actually don't like smashville that much. I feel like the platform interrupts my edgeguards more than it helps me get back from my opponent's edgeguards.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

I actually don't like smashville that much. I feel like the platform interrupts my edgeguards more than it helps me get back from my opponent's edgeguards.

Agreed. Gets in the way of chaingrabs, and only real use for it is wavelanding movement when its in your favor, or the rare edgeguard chase when you can waveland quickly onto the platform while its to the sides of the stage. If the enemy tries to recover via the platform, a spartan kick will almost always kill them

 

[ShadowGanon]

So I was messing around yesterday and I found something odd that might be useful. I found that when crouching (let's say you're facing to the right) you can hit the c-stick down and to the left (down and away from wherever you are facing) to make you jab out of crouch. This could be useful for CCing someones attack and whacking them back with your 3 frame jab. I think this can be done with any character, but I imagine that it would be useful for Ganon because of his super fast jab. I don't know if this has been discovered before or not, but it's kind of cool.

EDIT: When attempting to perform this "crouch jab" thing, make sure not to tap the c-stick down and away from where you are facing. Lightly press it. Otherwise you'll end up performing a smash attack.

 

[teluoborg]

I'm so trying this the next time I plug my Wii.

 

[CORY]

So I was messing around yesterday and I found something odd that might be useful. I found that when crouching (let's say you're facing to the right) you can hit the c-stick down and to the left (down and away from wherever you are facing) to make you jab out of crouch. This could be useful for CCing someones attack and whacking them back with your 3 frame jab. I think this can be done with any character, but I imagine that it would be useful for Ganon because of his super fast jab. I don't know if this has been discovered before or not, but it's kind of cool.

EDIT: When attempting to perform this "crouch jab" thing, make sure not to tap the c-stick down and away from where you are facing. Lightly press it. Otherwise you'll end up performing a smash attack.

related to this: if you're ccing and want another way to jab out of it, hold juuuuuuuuuuust below horizontal, behind the direction you're facing, and you'll also jab.

credit goes to oracle for this one, i believe.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Hey, stupid question, I was working on the arty-vortex and trying to SHFF his n-air, but it always takes longer and doesn't cancel properly. I looked up Arty doing it, and it doesn't even look like he FFs. When I just SH it, it seems to work fine. Is there a specific frame where I want to FF, because it works alright without it, but maybe there's a better way.

 

[Spralwers]

You need to make sure you FF after the first kick comes out. Otherwise you need to l cancel.

SHFFL'd first kick of nair isn't actually a bad situational combo starter and it can be used to extend combos.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

wait the nair auto cancels in pm?

 

[Claire Diviner]

Any chance there'd be a list of characters an aerial Flame Choke couldn't set up for chain grabs? I know space animals and Falcon are a few examples. I think Bowser can't be set up for CGs either for being too much of a fatass.

 

[Scuba Steve]

wait the nair auto cancels in pm?

Nair autocancelled in Melee as well, but the move was really bad in Melee too. Autocancelling a nair is actually pretty easy. I just shffl it, but make sure to land right after the second kick comes out. The timing seems to be pretty lenient.

 

[Spralwers]

The frame data lists the auto cancel window for nair. I believe it's <4, 23> so as long as you land nair within those frames it'll autocancel. The reason why auto canceling nair is actually useful is because the attack has hitframes for almost the entire duration of each kick. The move fuses the melee nair with the brawl lingering sour spot, so it's basically a double sex kick.

Any chance there'd be a list of characters an aerial Flame Choke couldn't set up for chain grabs? I know space animals and Falcon are a few examples. I think Bowser can't be set up for CGs either for being too much of a fatass.

Since lots of people ask about this I might go ahead and work on that this weekend. I already have a pretty good intuition about who this works on - it's generally floaties (Zelda, Samus, Jigglypuff, etc). But for people slightly less floaty like Marth, it's DI dependent.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Since lots of people ask about this I might go ahead and work on that this weekend. I already have a pretty good intuition about who this works on - it's generally floaties (Zelda, Samus, Jigglypuff, etc). But for people slightly less floaty like Marth, it's DI dependent.

I would think the really floaty ones could act before a chain grab can start. I think middleweights, like Mario, could be CG'd effectively though (at least from my experience).

 

[Spralwers]

Oh true, for some reason I misread CGs after aerial flame choke for grab after aerial flame choke. Marth, Ivy, and other characters with similar floatiness/weight would be the only characters, and it would be heavily percent dependent too. Marth can escape chain grabs at around 30-40%.

 

[regiwolfe]

so maybe this is just me being a noob but

I think ganon's aerial wizkick is kind of underrated. I've never seen it used effectively as a gimp low % ko option in pro-level play, but it's actually incredibly useful for mixing up with dair if your opponent isn't used to it since it spikes. Obviously you have to get pretty high up to do it or you'll just sd; stages with platforms at the edge that you can waveland onto (like YS and warioware) are great for this though. I've noticed it works well against tether recoveries. And if you miss, you'll always have another jump that you can use to recover or punish your opponent's ledgegrab.

It's also incredibly intimidating.

so...thoughts? am I on to something, or is this just a bad idea in general?

 

[Scuba Steve]

so maybe this is just me being a noob but

I think ganon's aerial wizkick is kind of underrated. I've never seen it used effectively as a gimp low % ko option in pro-level play, but it's actually incredibly useful for mixing up with dair if your opponent isn't used to it since it spikes. Obviously you have to get pretty high up to do it or you'll just sd; stages with platforms at the edge that you can waveland onto (like YS and warioware) are great for this though. I've noticed it works well against tether recoveries. And if you miss, you'll always have another jump that you can use to recover or punish your opponent's ledgegrab.

It's also incredibly intimidating.

so...thoughts? am I on to something, or is this just a bad idea in general?

I don't like doing it that much because it's pretty unsafe on whiff. This is also coming from a guy who also kills himself like once a set by trying to do a YOLO run-off fair edgeguard. Basically, if you miss, you're having to recover from low enough that they can just hold ledge and you're ****ed. I wouldn't recommend unless you're trying to style on some people. I do use it sometimes when people position themselves poorly when edgeguarding me and it can lead to some pretty hilarious kills.

 

[teluoborg]

Speaking of runoffs, you can runoff Dair and still be able to recover on stage even if people are holding the ledge. I'm trying to implement the Utaunt cancel runoff Dair for the laughing stomp.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Speaking of runoffs, you can runoff Dair and still be able to recover on stage even if people are holding the ledge. I'm trying to implement the Utaunt cancel runoff Dair for the laughing stomp.

That sounds... Devious...

 

[bandi]

Speaking of runoffs, you can runoff Dair and still be able to recover on stage even if people are holding the ledge. I'm trying to implement the Utaunt cancel runoff Dair for the laughing stomp.

Sole reason to main Ganon.
I love you.

 

[Claire Diviner]

so maybe this is just me being a noob but

I think ganon's aerial wizkick is kind of underrated. I've never seen it used effectively as a gimp low % ko option in pro-level play, but it's actually incredibly useful for mixing up with dair if your opponent isn't used to it since it spikes. Obviously you have to get pretty high up to do it or you'll just sd; stages with platforms at the edge that you can waveland onto (like YS and warioware) are great for this though. I've noticed it works well against tether recoveries. And if you miss, you'll always have another jump that you can use to recover or punish your opponent's ledgegrab.

It's also incredibly intimidating.

so...thoughts? am I on to something, or is this just a bad idea in general?

If you time it right, it shouldn't be that bad, though it probably goes without saying you should get a good jumping start before attempting this, so your recovery can reach the ledge, if not the stage's floor.

I'm surprised myself that it's underused, given the entire duration of the move is a spike, unlike in Melee and Brawl, and you can even Down B onto the edge of the stage, landing on the ground, and still spike the opponent if they don't sweetspot the ledge perfectly.

Speaking of runoffs, you can runoff Dair and still be able to recover on stage even if people are holding the ledge. I'm trying to implement the Utaunt cancel runoff Dair for the laughing stomp.

It's made easier if you set the taunt button to one of the shoulder buttons (preferably the one you never use otherwise). It's how I get Falcon to say "YES!" every 3 out of 5 knees.

 

[Spralwers]

The main issue I have with aerial down b spiking is that Ganon's foot is entirely a hurtbox and not even a hitbox at all. I think Ganon's ability to aerial wizkick spike is highly situational and character dependent, since he can easily be hit out of it and the move requires seriously heavy commitment.

I've been working a lot on DDing away and then pivoting into jab, ftilt, and dtilt. When you're a bit too close to the opponent (happens very often for me), DD away into pivoting puts me at the optimal distance for a perfectly spaced unpunishable ftilt/dtilt and I can get the move out quickly. I'm also working on DDing forward into a pivot ftilt, dtilt, and jab, but it's very difficult. There is a very clear, distinct motion to pivoting with forward dashes, so it's definitely possible to get it into muscle memory and be able to perform it frame perfectly with decent consistency. I can see pivots out of forward dashes helping Ganon's approach.

Once I'm totally comfortable with pivots, I don't see myself ever using WDes in neutral. It just takes too long to start, too long to act out of, and you cover such little distance anyway. I'll only waveland.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

The main issue I have with aerial down b spiking is that Ganon's foot is entirely a hurtbox and not even a hitbox at all. I think Ganon's ability to aerial wizkick spike is highly situational and character dependent, since he can easily be hit out of it and the move requires seriously heavy commitment.

I've been working a lot on DDing away and then pivoting into jab, ftilt, and dtilt. When you're a bit too close to the opponent (happens very often for me), DD away into pivoting puts me at the optimal distance for a perfectly spaced unpunishable ftilt/dtilt and I can get the move out quickly. I'm also working on DDing forward into a pivot ftilt, dtilt, and jab, but it's very difficult. There is a very clear, distinct motion to pivoting with forward dashes, so it's definitely possible to get it into muscle memory and be able to perform it frame perfectly with decent consistency. I can see pivots out of forward dashes helping Ganon's approach.

Once I'm totally comfortable with pivots, I don't see myself ever using WDes in neutral. It just takes too long to start, too long to act out of, and you cover such little distance anyway. I'll only waveland.

Flamechoke, wavedash away so you dont get hit by wakeup, and can dtill tech chase with another flamechoke.

Rinse and repeat until the salt flows B)


His WD isnt big, but its enough to make a difference. WD back and ftilt is a blasty blast c:

 

[Scuba Steve]

The main issue I have with aerial down b spiking is that Ganon's foot is entirely a hurtbox and not even a hitbox at all. I think Ganon's ability to aerial wizkick spike is highly situational and character dependent, since he can easily be hit out of it and the move requires seriously heavy commitment.

THIS is one of the big things that I forgot to mention in my other post on why I don't like using wizard foots to edgeguard. Look at how garbage this hitbox is
http://taerk.net/sartron/Ganondorf/Aerial Down Special_0.5x.gif

Once I'm totally comfortable with pivots, I don't see myself ever using WDes in neutral. It just takes too long to start, too long to act out of, and you cover such little distance anyway. I'll only waveland.

Eh, I would still use wavedashes in neutral because Ganon doesn't have a terrible one, they allow much greater control of your character, and make your dashdance more unpredictable.

Flamechoke, wavedash away so you dont get hit by wakeup, and can dtill tech chase with another flamechoke.

Rinse and repeat until the salt flows B)

Did somebody say flamechoke tech chases? I do basically the same thing all the time, but I usually just dash away instead of wavedash.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, Ganon's aerial Wizkick's hitboxes are pretty bad, but given the speed of the move, it isn't exactly terrible. Sure, we're probably better off with either Dair, Fair, or Bair... hell, even Uair, but there are moments, though situational, where a Wizkick can be a better (if not flashier) option. Given it can be ledge-cancelled, it does make a good edge guard tool regardless, especially against those with predictable recoveries.

 

[teluoborg]

The only thing you're right about is the fact that wizkick is the flashiest edgeguard tool Ganon has (save for Ganoncide but that's another story).
Wizkick isn't fast, the startup is horrendous and as said above the lack of hitbox on the foot means it's gonna be stuffed by anyone with a remotely lingering hitbox, which most up Bs have.

So yeah, it's situational at most, and Dair is better in almost every way, the hitbox is so ridiculously big you will at least trade with the recoveries.

Also the more I practice wavedash the better it gets. It's frustrating to see how unforgiving Ganon's WD is compared to the likes of Mario and Marth with whom I can simply spam the inputs and slide across the stage, but when done right Ganon actually slides quite far. But yeah, slower startup because of the slower jumpsquat and if you misstime it you don't go anywhere.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Also the more I practice wavedash the better it gets. It's frustrating to see how unforgiving Ganon's WD is compared to the likes of Mario and Marth with whom I can simply spam the inputs and slide across the stage, but when done right Ganon actually slides quite far. But yeah, slower startup because of the slower jumpsquat and if you misstime it you don't go anywhere.

At least the super long jumpsquat makes it easier to wavedash OoS

 

[Prince Longstrok]

I actually landed a Wiz foot spike against a really good Falcon player at a meet up not long ago.

Personally, I feel its something you should only do once in a match, because its too punishible on whiff (And unless you jump high enough first, you simply wont make it back on your own)

Its a fun way to say "Take me seriously" though :D

 

[Scuba Steve]

I actually landed a Wiz foot spike against a really good Falcon player at a meet up not long ago.

Personally, I feel its something you should only do once in a match, because its too punishible on whiff (And unless you jump high enough first, you simply wont make it back on your own)

Its a fun way to say "Take me seriously" though :D

Okay, but edgeguarding Falcon is different story, though. Edgeguarding Falcon and Ganon is EZ mode and you can basically do whatever you want to kill them lol.