Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[Nguz95]

I'm glad someone could clarify the whole punish thing. Hearing casters say punish every three seconds made me think it was just some kind of sentence enhancer .


Kind of new to smash in general, was hoping someone could give me the general opinion of ganon's utilt. Is it only good as a finisher? I want to try to use it more outside of following up a flamechoke, but I find the second hit comes out way too slow and the first hit has such a weird hitbox.

Your avatar is amazing. Easily my favorite scooby-doo villain. There are a few uses for it. The most obvious is as a finisher for the aerial flame choke. on floaties and midweights it kills really early if you use it after an aerial side-b. Another use, which a friend of mine discovered, is to use it as a pseudo jab. If you reverse it, the first hit can drag someone who is right in front of you across your body and into the second hit. He used it that way to punish shield grabs and predictable approaches. Aside from that, it's not crazy useful. You can use it to edgeguard annoying recoveries like Ike's, but aside from those uses I can't think of too many.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

PUNCH ALL THE THINGS!!

 

[Nguz95]

Kill em all.

 

[CORY]

PUNCH ALL THE THINGS!!

that's my general plan. with some kicking added in for good measure.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

So, yeah, how great is WarioWare?

I have yet to drop a game in bracket on that stage. Even managed to take a game off of Silent Wolf there.

I'm in love.

 

[teluoborg]

It's very good, I don't like it against Link tho.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

It's very good, I don't like it against Link tho.

Why not? Seems like it would still be pretty good. I don't play a lot of Links though, so I can't really be certain.

 

[Nguz95]

Link has a nasty habit of getting off random hits that kill on Wario's, where they wouldn't kill on larger stages. There's also the usual swords covering platforms problem. It's not that bad imo, since Ganon can really invade on Link's space on Wario's. It also makes Ganon's mediocre recovery not so bad comparatively.

I'm not really sure if it offers an advantage over Yoshi's Story though.

 

[teluoborg]

Well to put it simply as long as Link is on stage there isn't a single part of WW he can't reach. Which means that he gets his combos even more easily on Ganon. Also the size of the stage make his tech chase as obnoxious as ours.

In this matchup I prefer YS or Green Hill, where the top platforms helps a lot more and Ganon's wl game works a lot better on the platforms of YS.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Does anybody know if DI effects the bounce after an aerial flame choke? I think something that would be good for this thread would be a chart of possible guaranteed follow-ups to aerial flame choke on different characters.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Does anybody know if DI effects the bounce after an aerial flame choke? I think something that would be good for this thread would be a chart of possible guaranteed follow-ups to aerial flame choke on different characters.

I'm fairly certain that you can DI the bounce, and I'm pretty sure you can DI the drop after a grounded Flame Choke as well.

There was a chart of Flame Choke follow-ups a while back, but it's not up to date. I might look into making a new one for 3.02 (we should have a comprehensive list somewhere after all), but I'm not going to promise anything.

 

[Spralwers]

You can definitely DI the bounce after aerial flame choke.

 

[teluoborg]

And I confirm that you can also DI the fall on grounded side B, that's what I'm using to tech chase my opponent. Dash in the direction theyDI thethen side B in whatever direction they techroll, and they often techroll the same direction they DI.

And of all the options after air side b, I think jab is always guaranteed on everyone, and can hilariously lead to a free Fair on floaties.

 

[Spralwers]

Follow ups will indeed have to be done on a per character basis for aerial side B. There're two variables - hitstun length and bounce height. Zelda has high floatiness and high hitstun, so you can actually follow aerial side B with wiz kick. But you can't on Samus, because while she has the floatiness, she has such little hitstun.

I think the optimal ways to DI aerial side B are down, and down+away. Maybe up or up+away if you're a super floaty. You want to go downwards so you can tech, you want to go away to avoid being jabbed. So follow ups should keep this in mind.

 

[CORY]

And of all the options after air side b, I think jab is always guaranteed on everyone, and can hilariously lead to a free Fair on floaties.

it's not universal. fast fallers have no guaranteed followups, they hit the ground too fast. if they miss the tech (on purpose or not) you might be able to jab them? but i think it's too high to hit grounded characters...

 

[teluoborg]

Hum I could swear I jabbed a Fox or two out of dunk, not too sure tho I'll have to test it again.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Hum I could swear I jabbed a Fox or two out of dunk, not too sure tho I'll have to test it again.

I've definitely jabbed Spacies out of a dunk, but I feel like it's inconsistent. Not sure why exactly, definitely something that merits investigation.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I just started doing this one thing out of a grounded flame choke yesterday that I think is one the best options out of it when you're still early into a match and haven't really picked up on your opponents tech habits yet. As soon as I can act out of the flame choke, I'll jump forward and wait in the air to see how they tech (or don't tech). If they tech roll forward, you're perfectly placed to throw out a fair and hit them right out of it. If they miss the tech or tech in place, you're still in range to hit them with a bair. This allows you to cover all the options they have out of the flame choke besides a tech roll away. Obviously, you can't just spam this the whole match, or else it will become obvious what you are doing and they can avoid it everytime. It's just good to mix into your game. Why cover one option when you can cover all but one?

 

[Spralwers]

In a way, that could be a 50/50 mix up, since you can jump forward, or dash dance the other way and then jump forward, so you would cover the option of someone tech rolling behind and still be able to hit with a fair. But in turn you wouldn't cover the option of tech rolling forward.

So basically it's a 50/50 mixup (you jump forward, or turn around then jump forward from there), which then changes into a 75/25 mixup in your favor. And if you get them near the edge with grounded side b, then you're pretty much set lol

 

[ShadowGanon]

Question 1: Is it possible to JC into up-b?

Question 2: If the above thing is possible, would up-b be a good option out of shield?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Question 1: Is it possible to JC into up-b?

Question 2: If the above thing is possible, would up-b be a good option out of shield?

1. Yes
2. Not really. Pretty big commitment, not very quick, extremely punishable. However, it could be situationally useful in instances where an opponent attacks deep into your shield, but is too low to grab, like Mario's dash attack. I haven't tried it out much myself, though.

 

[teluoborg]

2.You can use up B oos to punish things that have lag but are outside your grab range. It means : disjointed stuff like Ivy's Fair, low hitboxes like Scuba Steve said and even stuff that end behind you (because yeah you can B reverse the oos up B).

The main point is : up B is slow compared to grab (frame 16 instead of frame 7), so you need the opponent to use a laggy move. The range on it is formidable though.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Agreed on the oos up-b. Question; what other contributions to the metagame do you guys think a short-hopped, close-quarters u-air can make other than an on stage edgeguard? I've been trying to incorporate more of them in for non-conventional use, haven't come up with many ideas.

 

[Bazkip]

Was messing around on WarioWare and I ledgecancelled Wiz Foot into an autocancelled nair. Might provide some interesting mixups, and should probably work on most stages with platforms (albeit with different timings)

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Was messing around on WarioWare and I ledgecancelled Wiz Foot into an autocancelled nair. Might provide some interesting mixups, and should probably work on most stages with platforms (albeit with different timings)

Dear god in heaven... That sounds cool as ****.

 

[foxygrandpa]

The more I play with ganondorf the more I learn how good ftilt is to space with. Its such a broken move lol, but even with it ganon's not that great.

 

[Bazkip]

Dear god in heaven... That sounds cool as ****.

I was just kinda mashing A so I immediately jabbed upon landing, after a moment I realized what had just happened, and said "Oh damn!" out loud haha.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

The more I play with ganondorf the more I learn how good ftilt is to space with. Its such a broken move lol, but even with it ganon's not that great.

Not that great!?

ledge cancel Wiz Kick >> auto-cancel nair >> ftilt

#BROKEN

 

[ShadowGanon]

Not that great!?

ledge cancel Wiz Kick >> auto-cancel nair >> ftilt

#BROKEN

It's really hard, though. You have to perfectly space the aerial wiz kick. It takes a lot of practice.

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

It's really hard, though. You have to perfectly space the aerial wiz kick. It takes a lot of practice.

well then challenge accepted

 

[Scuba Steve]

well then challenge accepted

It really isn't that difficult.

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

It really isn't that difficult.

.__________. jest tried it out and its pretty easy so ya

 

[Spralwers]

Want to talk about dash attack a little more in depth.

Don't know how well versed you guys are in the brawl mechanics, but the C stick dash attack (which you use to initialize the dacus) is amazing because it allows you to do the dash attack without being in the dash animation, because otherwise you'd fsmash. I do it by smashing the control stick forward/backward and hitting C stick down at the same time.

So you get a 7 frame attack that covers decent range and does nice damage. Not bad at canceling out some projectiles (like Link's boomerang) and catching people who are DDing near you, or in the air. Also a nice follow up to the grounded side B tech chase. The strong part is fairly decent at killing floaties past 100% (not a bad idea to pick a stage with low ceilings).

The weak part at higher damages has nice hitstun and can get you decent follow ups (I've gotten fair before). It also does 10% damage.

In a combo, I find dash attack to be good during grounded side B tech chase, and immediately after a jab, especially if the opponent will still be in the air by the time the dash attack hits. At higher percents, I've done jab -> weak part of dash attack -> bair/fair.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Huh, I was aware that you could use the c-stick to dash attack in this game, but I never really thought to use it to ensure that I don't fsmash. I actually even tried to actively avoid using it because it's a bad habit for Melee where c-stick doesn't do anything in a dash. I pretty much hardly ever touch Melee anymore so I guess I'll start trying to use this again. All those times I've fsmashed instead of dash attacked... Anyways, good stuff, Sprawlers.

 

[bandi]

Sup Guys!?

So... I don't really know if this technique known, if not, naming rights belong solely to me - I call it the "StompStomp". It's probably a surefire stock, if you ask me.

How it's done :
1.)Adhere the footstole function to a button of your choice.
2.)Condition your enemy to shield your attacks. Spam Bairs/Nairs/the Foot.
3.)If your enemy shields, do a short footstool - the opponent can't shield for a few seconds and is probably caught offguard
4.)STOMP!
5.)???????
6.)profit!

Caught the best P:M player in Austria with this technique offguard, disrespected him and got a boner at the same time. It's just so much win!

After that I pretty much lost.

Thoughts?

 

[Spralwers]

Also to add onto the dash attack, there's a disjoint, at the very least on the weak part. Was doing some testing in the lab and it clashed with Ivy's vines o_o I'm guessing the strong part has a disjoint too.

I'll experiment with the footstooling. The conditioning is definitely important haha

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sup Guys!?

So... I don't really know if this technique known, if not, naming rights belong solely to me - I call it the "StompStomp". It's probably a surefire stock, if you ask me.

How it's done :
1.)Adhere the footstole function to a button of your choice.
2.)Condition your enemy to shield your attacks. Spam Bairs/Nairs/the Foot.
3.)If your enemy shields, do a short footstool - the opponent can't shield for a few seconds and is probably caught offguard
4.)STOMP!
5.)???????
6.)profit!

Caught the best P:M player in Austria with this technique offguard, disrespected him and got a boner at the same time. It's just so much win!

After that I pretty much lost.

Thoughts?

I really want to see more footstools, but I feel ike Ganon's poor aerial mobility makes it much harder for him to use them than a character like Wario. Most of the times when I start recognizing when a person likes to try and shield, I'll usually just go for aerial flame chokes. That said, I REALLY want to start using footstools more. I always map my X button to it, but I've still yet to use it, just because I'm unaccustomed to using it. The benefits for landing footstools with Ganon seem like they would be huge considering that he has a near guaranteed dair on somebody on the ground, and dairs on grounded opponents lead to huge punishes on a lot of the cast at a pretty wide range of percents. I'll have to start using this more.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Now I've got to try that. The only footstools I've ever used were to gimp CPU's off-stage; but, unless I'm wrong, that has no competitive merit.

 

[bandi]

I really want to see more footstools, but I feel ike Ganon's poor aerial mobility makes it much harder for him to use them than a character like Wario. Most of the times when I start recognizing when a person likes to try and shield, I'll usually just go for aerial flame chokes. That said, I REALLY want to start using footstools more. I always map my X button to it, but I've still yet to use it, just because I'm unaccustomed to using it. The benefits for landing footstools with Ganon seem like they would be huge considering that he has a near guaranteed dair on somebody on the ground, and dairs on grounded opponents lead to huge punishes on a lot of the cast at a pretty wide range of percents. I'll have to start using this more.

Every Ganon should use footstool - a dair can easily lead to a kill if executed well enough. Isn't that reason enough to remap your controls? Start using it and go practice some dair to death combos !

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

The disrespectful off stage footstool when you are ahead, now that is jest fun