Ganon Strategies and Gameplay Discussion.

[_Ganondorf_]

I think the hit box on air wiz kick should b adjusted to fit the whole foot, or even extend abit from it. As it is now it's pretty annoying. And it plainly just doesn't make any sense....

And yeah edge guarding Ganon and C. Falcon is super easy mode, I don't think their recovery's should be amazing or guaranteed but I think at least Ganon deserves armor on his Up B almost every other heavy has it. Or maybe have a hitbox around the Up B (darkness?) sorta like Ness, Fox, Lucas just to protect the recovery.

 

[teluoborg]

Meh it's fine as is, I mean you already have the dark shoryu at the end of up B, and both up B and side B give you grab armor. I play some Falcon too and the poor dude has it way harder : no hitbox on his up B, side B isn't a grab, his air down B lasts forever and makes him plunge into the depths of hell..

No really, I think the only things Ganon needs for his recovery are the things I put in the meta discussion : the foot hitbox on his air down B, reduced lag after grabbing with up B and less landing lag on his up B and side B.

To be more clear : I'm fine with Ganon being weak offstage as long as he has his strenghts put up to date.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Meh it's fine as is, I mean you already have the dark shoryu at the end of up B, and both up B and side B give you grab armor. I play some Falcon too and the poor dude has it way harder : no hitbox on his up B, side B isn't a grab, his air down B lasts forever and makes him plunge into the depths of hell..

No really, I think the only things Ganon needs for his recovery are the things I put in the meta discussion : the foot hitbox on his air down B, reduced lag after grabbing with up B and less landing lag on his up B and side B.

To be more clear : I'm fine with Ganon being weak offstage as long as he has his strenghts put up to date.

Id settle for a longer grab honestly xD

 

[Bazkip]

Ledgejump > uair > nair gets you the autocancel seemingly every time as long as you get the moves out as soon as you can.

Might be decently useful, and it's pretty fun, haha

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ledgehop > uair > nair gets you the autocancel seemingly every time as long as you get the moves out as soon as you can.

Might be decently useful, and it's pretty fun, haha

i think you might have to l-cancel the lh uair, but the nair should get auto canceled.

 

[Bazkip]

i think you might have to l-cancel the lh uair, but the nair should get auto canceled.

Oh, whoops, I meant ledgejump, not ledgehop. Derp.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

that seems a lot worse and punishable.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I use ledgejump upairs against people who are really high up near the ledge. Hell, I just realized that I also use ledgejumps to edgeguard opponents that are too high to be reached by a jump and a double jump. Ganon's ledgejump goes really high and makes it way easier to reach people recovering high.

 

[Comprehend13]

Question: I have seen a couple people recently following down throw with Up B. Why?

 

[ShadowGanon]

Question: I have seen a couple people recently following down throw with Up B. Why?

Because, on floaties at higher percents, there are no other guaranteed follow ups from d-throw.

 

[Comprehend13]

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

An 18% follow-up that can kill at a somewhat decent percent is nothing to scoff at.

Plus, I think it has a little more knockback than an uair, so if your opponent is out of combo range and no other follow ups are available, up-B is your best option imo.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Damn, I've just been up-airing floaties this whole time and I totally forgot about up-b. I use up-in weird situations too, like for when I predict someone to start shielding on a platform, I'll up-b into them but I never even thought of using it out of d-throw.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Now I will have to look at the grab box data for up-b, see at exactly what ranges that will work. Is it really DI dependent, or practically guaranteed?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Now I will have to look at the grab box data for up-b, see at exactly what ranges that will work. Is it really DI dependent, or practically guaranteed?

It's kind-of-almost-fairly guaranteed. At a certain percent, characters seem to be able to DI hard in a direction and avoid the grab, but on no DI, or any DI below a certain percent, it's very consistent.

 

[bandi]

SH instant Bair to perfect Waveland to Grab. Leads to a stock if chaingrabbed correctly.
I didn't see any P:M Ganon at all using this tool.
I really think Ganon oughta be played like Luigi - using his superb Wavelands to traverse from one side of the map, up to the face of your opponent.

 

[teluoborg]

I try, but usually I Bair too early so when I go for the waveland I airdodge instead :/

That's a thing I often do when I Dair from high up, and yes wavelands should be used more often given how good they are.

 

[bandi]

The one Ganondorf I can remember to use wavelands more often than other Ganons here in this Forum was Ace.
Ganon has great a mobility if you know how to (ab)use it .

 

[teluoborg]

Bumping this thread to say that Full Hop Bair can touch tall characters (Marth, Zelda...) with a certain spacing, making FH double Bair a true combo at 0%.

 

[bandi]

Bumping this thread to say that Full Hop Bair can touch tall characters (Marth, Zelda...) with a certain spacing, making FH double Bair a true combo at 0%.

You can also FH/Instant Bair=>DJ+Uair=>Waveland=>Do whatever the hell you like to do.

 

[Spralwers]

So we can see from melee that Ganondorf gets good mileage out of the triangle and double platform layouts.

But what about the singular, moving platforms that stages like Yoshi's Island, GHZ, and Smashville have? And how about the odd platform layouts of lylat and warioware? I've started grinding out my perfect wavelands and platform movement and I'm wondering what other Ganons think about how the new platform layouts affect his overall game.

 

[Scuba Steve]

So we can see from melee that Ganondorf gets good mileage out of the triangle and double platform layouts.

But what about the singular, moving platforms that stages like Yoshi's Island, GHZ, and Smashville have? And how about the odd platform layouts of lylat and warioware? I've started grinding out my perfect wavelands and platform movement and I'm wondering what other Ganons think about how the new platform layouts affect his overall game.

I ****ing love wavelanding everywhere on all the tri-platform stages. I love wavelanding in general. Ganon's sexy wavelands were one of the first things that I liked about this character. I like the tri-platform stages the best, excluding FoD. I like GHZ for how small it is, but the platform is pretty meh in terms of a using it as reliable movement option. Smashville's platform is pretty fun to waveland on because if you waveland in the direction the platform is moving, the distance of your waveland relative to the stage is even longer. I don't really like the platform on Yoshi's Island that much. It's too big to be able to cover all the tech options on it with a single up-air like you normally can lol. I feel the same way about Metal Cavern. I think my favorite non tri-platform stage is Warioware. Warioware is awesome already because of how small it is, but it's even better because the platforms open up a lot of sweet movement options and are really helpful for edgeguarding.

Skyworld is dumb. I hate the ambiguity of the cloud platforms.

 

[teluoborg]

I have no problem with single platform stages personally, but that might or might not be because I'm a Brawl player and I'm used to spend days playing on SV.

I'm personally fine with almost every platform layout, even Green Hill, the ones I really don't like are Lylat (platforms are too short, ledges are scary), FoD and DL64 (platforms too high and spread out).

Other than that I find them pretty cool. The big platform on YI can be covered with and air to ground Flame Choke to make tech chases tastier.

 

[Bazkip]

What can you do to get out of an opponent juggling you above them other than just trying to DI away? All the options to get hitboxes out below you are just too slow to do anything.

 

[Scuba Steve]

What can you do to get out of an opponent juggling you above them other than just trying to DI away? All the options to get hitboxes out below you are just too slow to do anything.

You just have to accept the fact that Ganon is kinda combo food lol. I have used ledge cancelled wizkicks to escape combos but those are situational at best.

 

[Spralwers]

When I actually have the energy to fully engage myself in smash (only happens at weekend tournaments and when I have an extra day off to rest), I go for as many SDI inputs as humanly possible. I did this when I had to fight Armada at sktar (albeit I was using Marth and not Ganondorf) and it negated the vast majority of his combos. You should put as much mental and physical effort into SDI as you do with every other element of competitive smash combined. You'll have to study your opponent's moves and decide what SDI you should use for escaping combos.

Also don't be afraid to throw an airdodge here and there. Lots of aerials are laggy and in some situations, you can reverse someone's advantageous position with it.

 

[Scuba Steve]

SH instant Bair to perfect Waveland to Grab. Leads to a stock if chaingrabbed correctly.
I didn't see any P:M Ganon at all using this tool.
I really think Ganon oughta be played like Luigi - using his superb Wavelands to traverse from one side of the map, up to the face of your opponent.

Yo, I just started using wavelands out of aerials pretty recently and it's pretty sweet. Started doing them after seeing Brandondorf doing them and you can go really far with the wavelands. Started wavelanding off of platforms into aerials a lot more as well.

Also, was messing around with wavelands and figured out that if you waveland off of most platforms and immediately do a bair without fastfalling it will auto-cancel. So waveland -> bair -> f-tilt/pivot jab is a thing now lol. This works on pretty much all the side platforms on stages like Battlefield, Dreamland, and PS2. All platforms around that height work fine. You can do it on the ones that are lower, like Yoshi's Story, but the execution window is tighter.

As for playing like Luigi, I can see where you're coming from with that. I finally got a CRT at home, so I can actually just sort of mess around with wavelanding and you can do some cool stuff with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOKcIzSlYAM&feature=youtu.be

Edit: Could Ganon waveland after short hopped aerials in Melee?

 

[Spralwers]

Good finds. You're on your way to making the PM counterpart to Ganon on ice. Ganon could only waveland after SH uair. SH fair didn't auto cancel, no wavelanding after bair. The more proficient I get with PM Ganon, the harder it is for me to play melee Ganon ):

 

[teluoborg]

One of the problems I have with wavelanded aerials is that I often do it too early and end up airdodging right before I touch the ground :/

Also one of the things I learnt from the video tutorial someone had posted and that changes everything is that you can waveland on platforms sooner if you do a backjump. Like, really sooner.

 

[CORY]

hrmmm... interesting... so it's not entirely that i'm bad at the timing...

i'm guessing it's because of the flip, putting his feet (and thus, the part of his model he lands on) higher up?

 

[ShadowGanon]

Lol. Just found that I can repeatedly Wiz Kick between twin platforms without lag.

EDIT: I'm at 700 posts! It is fitting that my 700th post be about #DasBoot.

 

[Cuban Pete]

Is ganon Dacus useful?

Is it bad to follow up Flame Choke with a jab (if they bounce/are big enough) and then wizard's foot?

Why is it so fun to flame choke people into the blast zone?

 

[CORY]

kind of? it's really easy to do, as far as dacus's go and it gives a really big burst of mobility, but the hitboxes on it are really narrow and specific. it's probably best to catch someone out of a jump by surprise or as a quick tech chase.

it's also rather safe on whiff (and i think shield?), so doing it isn't too bad, as long as it's not too obvious what you're trying to pull off.

the real payouts would be catching a double hit (41 damage! rekt!) or the flub hitbox in front of ganon (really low horizontal knockback angle, with good strength on it).

 

[GeZ]

My favorite combo, and I think one of Ganon's most satisfying is at low percents, Dair to put them into the air > Dair to put them on the ground > SH Flame Choke to tech chase > jab > DACUS Usmash. It only requires one read for the tech chase and can be tough to escape by some weightier characters. Plus it does what Ganon does best, that being hitting like a truck made of smaller trucks.

Edit: I was wondering, do you guys know about/ use Ganon's extended side smash? I find it can be tacked on to the end of some combos and be used as a surprise power poke.

 

[Spralwers]

I've messed around with the extended side smash a little bit after doing perfect wavelands. It's really trippy for the opponent especially if they're conditioned to expect anything else.

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, the extra step forward of distance can really wig people out.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Yeah, the extra step forward of distance can really wig people out.

How do you do that?

 

[GeZ]

How do you do that?

You flick the control stick in the opposite direction of your opponent right before you press side on the C-stick. It doesn't have super utility but it's easy and relatively neat.

 

[ShadowGanon]

You flick the control stick in the opposite direction of your opponent right before you press side on the C-stick. It doesn't have super utility but it's easy and relatively neat.

Just tried it with both Falcon and Ganon. The guy I was playing online didn't know what hit him.

 

[GeZ]

Good **** man! Make them fear Ganon's wily facewrecking.