fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Or you know, do both?
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Ganon iz a MYTHBUSTA - Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings
- Thread starter hyperstation
- Start date
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Thanks for saving this thread, Z1gma.
In regards to the cargo throw, just play it smart. If your percentage is low, hold up or down like the thread suggests. If your percentage is high, ledge tech. Once you get good at ledge teching, things like this and even falco's spike become less of an issue (on certain stages).
In regards to the cargo throw, just play it smart. If your percentage is low, hold up or down like the thread suggests. If your percentage is high, ledge tech. Once you get good at ledge teching, things like this and even falco's spike become less of an issue (on certain stages).
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
Umm
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7125116
Wtf.
Blizzard possibly doesn't gay Ganondorf out of contention in this matchup?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7125116
Wtf.
Blizzard possibly doesn't gay Ganondorf out of contention in this matchup?
hyperstation
Smash Lord
The potentially bigger story here is that supposedly you can SDI during Shield stun....how the f*ck hasn't that been discovered before (if it's true). I don't have my wii, but someone needs to test this.
Thanks, PK-ow. And obviously, yes...if this is true, we will gain a bit of ground in the IC's match-up.
I'm pretty sure this is very old. I think it was first found out when people moved out of halberd's laser while still blocking which was like may 08. It's pretty hard to do though since you roll more often than you would like to.
AgentJGV
Smash Journeyman
Ok guys so I haven't been on in a while but i've read up to this point and have some info for you. I went to FD as Ganon and tested this SDI during shield stun and yes it works. I had wolf shoot his laser at me. not SDIed, Ganon moved back a little bit. With SDI (forward), Ganon moved forward and then was pushed back so he essentially didn't go anywhere.
Also one more thing, When I SDIed it seemed like I had to input the command right before the attack hit. Is that normal for SDI or am I just a noob when it comes to that matter? =P
Also one more thing, When I SDIed it seemed like I had to input the command right before the attack hit. Is that normal for SDI or am I just a noob when it comes to that matter? =P
hyperstation
Smash Lord
If you input it right before the attack hit you might have just started the rolling animation then gotten hit back. A cstick in shield will input a roll. I believe to SSDI you have to just slightly push the cstick in the direction you want to DI while in shield stun. I haven't tested this myself, however.
AgentJGV
Smash Journeyman
But if you roll aren't you vulnerable right before the roll starts? Thats why you can't roll out of attacks like MK jab or the laser on Halberd. So if i simply just rolled into it it seems like I would've gotten hit rather than pushed back.
C-sticking on defualt buffers shieldgrabs during hitlag when blocking. If you miss the timing you do roll though.
Yup! [space filler]
:034:
Smash Hero
Okay, I have some questions.
1: How do you DI against Lucario's Force Palm Chaingrab?
2: What's the best DI to use against MK's attacks?
3: How do I get out of Mach Tornado?
I find myself always DI'ing away from MK's attacks (not necessarily up), but in the end, that gets me killed when I get near the edge... I seem to always become easy edgeguard food. Any help on this?
1: How do you DI against Lucario's Force Palm Chaingrab?
2: What's the best DI to use against MK's attacks?
3: How do I get out of Mach Tornado?
I find myself always DI'ing away from MK's attacks (not necessarily up), but in the end, that gets me killed when I get near the edge... I seem to always become easy edgeguard food. Any help on this?
You don't DI Luc's forcepalm CG, you mash out of it, like a grab, and then get away. Against MK it's generally favorable to hold up at all times if you're being hit. This'll make you susceptible only to up b off the ground, and give you longevity against all his other kill moves.
You can't really get out of nado with Ganon, b/c he ate too many Octoroks. Just tilt your shield up and try not to get caught by it in the air. I'm sure if you're coming from above you can tipman MK or dair him if you can peg the middle.
You can't really get out of nado with Ganon, b/c he ate too many Octoroks. Just tilt your shield up and try not to get caught by it in the air. I'm sure if you're coming from above you can tipman MK or dair him if you can peg the middle.
:034:
Smash Hero
Thanks, helps me out. :D
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
I'd be quite surprised if you could tipman MK out of the tornado if you're above him; that just seems wicked hard to pull off in general. I've never landed a d-air and very rarely can I even land a down-b on him when from above, which also surprises me. Sadly the move that works the most often when there's a tornado below me is airdodge through it and that's also very tricky to pull off and probably impossible against a competent MK.
Also, I've sometimes had luck with DI'ing up I think then quickly jump to airdodge off to the side.
But for the most part, you're pretty screwed when caught by a tornado. Up is the best choice, as been said.
D-tilt, f-tilt and f-smash all work pretty well for dismantling the tornado before you're caught in it on the ground. Never tried u-smash, I should give that a shot next time. And I don't remember how a grounded down-b works on it; I've tried it before but it was a while ago and it goes against all my instincts to get away from the tornado. Maybe I'll do a quick test.
And as PhantomX said, keep your shield tilted up whenever possible.
Oh yeah, don't try to u-air MK out of a tornado if he's above you. It always seems like it should work when I go to try it and I'm always pissed when it doesn't even clank and I get sucked up.
Also, I've sometimes had luck with DI'ing up I think then quickly jump to airdodge off to the side.
But for the most part, you're pretty screwed when caught by a tornado. Up is the best choice, as been said.
D-tilt, f-tilt and f-smash all work pretty well for dismantling the tornado before you're caught in it on the ground. Never tried u-smash, I should give that a shot next time. And I don't remember how a grounded down-b works on it; I've tried it before but it was a while ago and it goes against all my instincts to get away from the tornado. Maybe I'll do a quick test.
And as PhantomX said, keep your shield tilted up whenever possible.
Oh yeah, don't try to u-air MK out of a tornado if he's above you. It always seems like it should work when I go to try it and I'm always pissed when it doesn't even clank and I get sucked up.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
I propose a new myth to bust:
That Ganon doesn't like Lylat.
When the stage tilts, dtilt becomes **** from higher ground. You can still uair around a lot, and the whole thing is great for Murder Choke.
Is it so bad you can't thunderstomp toward high ground?
That Ganon doesn't like Lylat.
When the stage tilts, dtilt becomes **** from higher ground. You can still uair around a lot, and the whole thing is great for Murder Choke.
Is it so bad you can't thunderstomp toward high ground?
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
I don't mind Lylat. I figure it's just as useful to me as Yoshi's Island. You just have to pay attention to when you can and can't AC your aerials.
Recovery isn't that big of an issue on Lylat for me either. As long as you're aware that the stage constantly tilts, you shouldn't kill yourself recovering with side-b or stall your up-b to the last minute only to have it tilt out of your reach.
I suppose it really just boils down to paying attention to the constant stage tilting.
Love those platforms.
raperaperaperaperape
Recovery isn't that big of an issue on Lylat for me either. As long as you're aware that the stage constantly tilts, you shouldn't kill yourself recovering with side-b or stall your up-b to the last minute only to have it tilt out of your reach.
I suppose it really just boils down to paying attention to the constant stage tilting.
Love those platforms.
raperaperaperaperape
ONLY tilt your shield up against MK if he's already nadoing. If you tilt your shield up when you're next to him, expect to eat a shieldpoke dsmash, which sucks.
I also like Lylat, helps me gimp.
I also like Lylat, helps me gimp.
Noobicidal
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,551
Koskinator
Smash Lord
Oh, for all of you who don't know, baiting nado against MK ***** him. Ftilt is the bane of nado. It ***** it so hard.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Along with a direct aerial warlord kick towards the center of the nado. It'll even kill at around 90%.
:034:
Smash Hero
I hate Lylat because of recovery gimps, I always seem to fail there. I don't usually ban it though - since nobody actually ever CP's me on that stage (heck, people ban it most of the time).
Noobicidal
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,551
I usually get screwed over more from being gimped and trying to recover on FD more than on Lylat. Lylat's ledges have more room for error thanks to the tilt.
:034:
Smash Hero
Which is why I ban Final Destinaton all the time. (: It's not even that good of a stage for Ganondorf (and in general).
:034:
Smash Hero
Okay, back for more, this time for some confirmation. You can attack Falcon when he hits you with his raptor boost midair spike, presumably with an uair.
Check the thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7313846
Check the thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7313846
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
I don't think so. Ganon's UAir isn't as fast as Falcon's, and no other attack of his has such a hitbox that'll hit upwards.
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
What I am wondering is, if the utilt can be used like how other characters use a jab lock. Or if it's just too slow, or if it doesn't have those properties--but if someone doesn't tech their fall could the utilt wind actually keep them stuck on the ground like a jab lock since its knockback is nill? I haven't tested this myself, but I've been wondering. Because if that were possible a tipman combo might be able to lead into an easy kill at low percents, but I am doubting this is possible at all.
Nope. Sadly, Utilt doesn't have jab lock capabilities ;\
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
****. If it did, utilt would have a great use. Imagine someone laying there slowly getting dragged into it only to find themselves incapable of escaping the ultimate axe kick in the universe? I am hard just thinking about it.
hyperstation
Smash Lord
I like this guy
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
There are some uses for UTilt, though. Such as early KOs against Marths and Ikes who love that Down + B. The wind effect triggers their down + B, giving them lag, leads to a extremely early KO.
If you have good reactions or if you're good at predicting, Utilt can **** so, so many laggy attacks.
When you see/predict a laggy Fsmash, you can answer with an Utilt EVEN OUT OF RANGE, cause their Fsmash will put them that tiny bit needed to get in the range of the Utilt, causing them to get sucked in a few milliseconds
- And then it's adios ~
In fact, it might even be better to use it just out of range, even though it won't sweetspot.
When you see/predict a laggy Fsmash, you can answer with an Utilt EVEN OUT OF RANGE, cause their Fsmash will put them that tiny bit needed to get in the range of the Utilt, causing them to get sucked in a few milliseconds
- And then it's adios ~
In fact, it might even be better to use it just out of range, even though it won't sweetspot.
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
I love using the utilt as an edgeguard occasionally. I just wish the hitbox would be more like snake's c4 and it would extend lower. But the hitbox is still pretty amazing. Like, if they miss the ledge sweetspot they are going to eat it.
But predominately I use it as a mixup [maybe once a round]. After thunderstomping a lot I'll drop one in after I see how my opponent reacts to it.
[EDIT] The falcons came up with an interesting and I believe true combo involving an AC'd dair into footstool, then dair then epic knee I believe. It works at pretty low percents, and our dair at 0% knocks people up slightly [depending on weights], could we take advantage of something like this? Or am I just a rambling madman?
But predominately I use it as a mixup [maybe once a round]. After thunderstomping a lot I'll drop one in after I see how my opponent reacts to it.
[EDIT] The falcons came up with an interesting and I believe true combo involving an AC'd dair into footstool, then dair then epic knee I believe. It works at pretty low percents, and our dair at 0% knocks people up slightly [depending on weights], could we take advantage of something like this? Or am I just a rambling madman?
:034:
Smash Hero
I saw that and thought about it. It'd be great but... Why wouldn't we just do 2 dairs after the first one (if it's at 0% anyway)? >_>
- Ganon's Dair -> footstool is pretty hard to nail.
But it can be pretty cool Vs some chars.
[Dair -> FS -> FF Dair] is cool, but it's not very much more rewarding than Dair -> Dair / Dair -> Usmash.
One very cool thing though, is [Dair -> FS -> FF Tipman (forced rising) -> Dair -> Uair]
- But it's pretty hard to perform x\
EDIT: Flying dutchman, you posted right before me.
But it can be pretty cool Vs some chars.
[Dair -> FS -> FF Dair] is cool, but it's not very much more rewarding than Dair -> Dair / Dair -> Usmash.
One very cool thing though, is [Dair -> FS -> FF Tipman (forced rising) -> Dair -> Uair]
- But it's pretty hard to perform x\
EDIT: Flying dutchman, you posted right before me.
:034:
Smash Hero
True, but mine was sexier :sexy:
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Timer > two thunderstomps > Axe kick is the most epic thing. Ever. Go try it.
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
Because the footstool forces a getup if I am not mistaken. But, it also is pretty sexy, and it could lead to other follow ups. But if they are bounced high enough they may be able to escape the second dair but a footstool will insure their getup and thus another dair.
This may be viable at low percents, but maybe not 0%.
Also, if we want people to take Ganon more seriously then we need to be able to perform these kind of things. Other characters can make mistakes and not get punished for it, whereas Ganon has almost no room for mistakes at all. Plus, other characters don't even need advanced techniques to really beat us, just good spacing. So adding anything to our arsenal is better than just leaving it as too difficult to perform.