Ganon iz a MYTHBUSTA - Reanalyzing Ganon's Shortcomings

[AgentJGV]

Ok guys I finally have time to post my thoughts on the dreaded U-tilt. Honestly, the only use for this (unless there's a shield break) is for defending a ledge. Its range is so long that the blast can hit out before the enemy can grab the ledge gaining invincibility. If you time it right, the enemy either has to recover into the blast or fall to their death.

I found that the best way to execute this is to F-tilt them since it sends them at a downward angle. If they go to high, its utterly useless.

What do you guys think.

 

[hyperstation]

Ok guys I finally have time to post my thoughts on the dreaded U-tilt. Honestly, the only use for this (unless there's a shield break) is for defending a ledge. Its range is so long that the blast can hit out before the enemy can grab the ledge gaining invincibility. If you time it right, the enemy either has to recover into the blast or fall to their death.

I found that the best way to execute this is to F-tilt them since it sends them at a downward angle. If they go to high, its utterly useless.

What do you guys think.

There are many more "safe" and "useful" modes of using UTilt. I still plan to do a nice write up on how I use it, but here's a quick example:

On Smashville, get on the moving platform when it is far to either side. Face inward and start a UTilt right before the platform moves in towards the stage. You're UTilt surfin'. If your opponent has a projectile, this isn't a very useful tactic, but for characters without projectiles, you can safely UTilt as you move towards the stage. If you bait the character in so they try to hit you before your UTilt goes off, they're putting themselves in great danger because the hitbox extends FAR in front, above, and slightly below the platform. If you miss, as long as you started your UTilt with correct timing, you will be safe as the cool down is not very long. The UTilt can also hit tall characters standing on smashville such as Snake. It's awesome. I have more uses for this tech even just on Smashville, but I'll save some for the write up.

Also, UTilt is disgusting in 2v2s. I like to team with a DK and I'll open up a Utilt, he grabs, tosses in my general direction, and the UTilt can pull the character out of the air and into the hitbox. It's a demoralizing kill, and I get it often with good DKs like Dr. Grampa or Brahma.

 

[Z1GMA]

I still plan to do a nice write up on how I use it

Goodie, goodie!

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Also What is up with Ganon's Nair...? Which leg is the sweetspot? That always confused me...

Its the right leg AKA the first hit of the NAir it has the heaviest knockback.

Fun thing though is I'm pretty sure the highest priority part of the NAir is the crotch...

 

[fromundaman]

Fun fact: If you stomp Waddle Dees that are being thrown at you, they will either fly up in the air or spin in place on the ground, but reguardless, they will count as being stuck in 'throw animation'. During this period of time, if D3 tries to throw another, he will go through the Waddle Dee throw animation, but nothing shall be thrown, which means all he is doing is giving himself an assload of lag to be punished.

 

[@HomE]

You're UTilt surfin'.

HAHA, I don't know why thats so funny to me.

 

[AgentJGV]

@Hyper: Interesting. Have you used the Utilt as an edge guard tech?

 

[PK-ow!]

Fun fact: If you stomp Waddle Dees that are being thrown at you, they will either fly up in the air or spin in place on the ground, but reguardless, they will count as being stuck in 'throw animation'. During this period of time, if D3 tries to throw another, he will go through the Waddle Dee throw animation, but nothing shall be thrown, which means all he is doing is giving himself an assload of lag to be punished.

OMFG

That's awesome. Is it only dair? So it seems the key is to get it before the Waddle Dee goes through its own 'land' animation (easily identifiable as the wobble before walking).

Vids nao pl0x.

 

[hyperstation]

@Hyper: Interesting. Have you used the Utilt as an edge guard tech?

Of course. It's all about recognizing spacing (which differs for ever character) and reconciling that with correct timing. I'll be explaining more soon. Sorry, I know I keep saying I'll do "such-and-such" soon, but I just got back to Brooklyn, and I'm trying to get my ish together. Updates soon enough, though.

 

[Swoops]

I <3 DAD for that f-air picture.

One thing though. Is that line the arch of the sweetspot hitbox only, or does it include just the entirety of the hitbox?

 

[hyperstation]

I <3 DAD for that f-air picture.

One thing though. Is that line the arch of the sweetspot hitbox only, or does it include just the entirety of the hitbox?

That image was actually less about sweetspot or hit box and more just the actual curvature of his arm. Like I said, I want to update the picture, and I think that highlighting the hitbox and the sweetspot separately would obviously be very helpful.

 

[fromundaman]

OMFG

That's awesome. Is it only dair? So it seems the key is to get it before the Waddle Dee goes through its own 'land' animation (easily identifiable as the wobble before walking).

Vids nao pl0x.

I'll try to get one tonight. I was just stomping Waddle Dees the other day for the hell of it and it was happening consistently though. Seems to only work with Dair, though I didn't really do too much testing on it. (It really sucks when a Gordo comes out though... )

EDIT: My roommate's camera isn't working atm, so I can't really record this, but it's really easy to test, so I'm sure you could do it yourselves.

Also, does anyone know if Ganon can Ganoncide cancel? (Like Bowser does with the claw. I heard talk of it at one point but don't know if it's actually possible...)

 

[hyperstation]

I gave this thread an update before I'm leaving for Nicaragua. Many thanks go to Marsulas for his awesome thread full of Sheik tips. The Sheik section in the OP saw the most updates and I think it has some information in there that is valuable to all of us.

While I'm gone, PLEASE submit more myths to be busted. We only have 3 chars listed right now in the OP, and any Ganon who's honest with himself will recognize that there is a whole gamut of characters in Brawl that have specific options against Ganon which cause major problems. These are the things we assess in the MYTHBUSTA thread, but I need your help in identifying them. Please keep this thread alive and healthy while I'm gone and give me tons of new material to work with when I get home.

Thanks.

 

[:034:]

For those who didn't follow it in DSL, pummel has IASA frames, when the knee hits.

This brought up some questions, so I'll answer them...

Nicely done, FD, but as you said, this is a MYTHBUSTA topic. I'm a HUGE purveyor of pummeling and I have it down to a science. That said, I had no idea that Ganon's pummel had IASA frames! Is this kind of like how Samus can do hyper speed b*tch slapping?

Yes, I believe it works under the same 'rule'... It seems that every pummel has IASA frames when the hand/knee/whatever hits. That's where I got the idea from.

Note: when Samus b*tch slaps super fast, she doesn't get a refreshed slot on her stale move list for EACH slap. I'm not sure of the specifics as I am just relaying information from MOM as I can best remember it, but I'd really appreciate it if you could look into this, FD.

Samus' and Wolf's pummel seem to be alike, so I believe I can answer this.

With Wolf, he hits so fast that you just HAVE to slow down. It seems that not every hit registers, it won't do damage. Some effects still have the "hit" registration, and therefore still refresh moves, even though they won't do damage. Example: G&W's uair and Ganon's utilt wind effect.

However, it seems that the pummels do not register whatsoever... Meaning, it won't refresh stale moves.

I do not believe Ganondorf has to worry from this, since his pummel isn't crazy fast like Samus' or Wolf's (those are just unreal when you abuse them at their full speed). Every hit does damage, so they must've registered as a hit and therefore refresh moves. I'll test this a little bit more though, but expect it to refresh your moves.

 

[Z1GMA]

Pummeling is indeed very important for Ganon.
Sometimes I get greedy and they get ground-released.
It's too bad Ganon doesn't have better grab-release-options, than just a
garanteed jab on Ness & Lucas ;/ ... Really... isn't there more?

 

[:034:]

If you buffer them perfectly, ftilt and dtilt SHOULD be able to hit Ness/Lucas out of a ground grab release.

I've been wanting to test air releases on a lot of characters, but all I know is that you have an infinite against Wario... I'll see what I can do about it... Like maybe an aerial release -> dash attack? Could be nice.

Ganondorf's options just aren't fast enough to get to an opponent before they can do anything. It's sad, really.

 

[hyperstation]

Thanks for switching the conversation to this thread, FD.

While I'm gone, try to get some more definitive information regarding the Ganon B*tch Slap and how it effects stale moves. This is very good news indeed. I'll be updating the OP with salient information when I get back, perhaps in the form of a "Regarding Stale Move Negation" section. Keep it up, FD.

Another question...do you input your b*tch slaps with A? IRC, to get maximum slap speed out of Samus you have to use Z or the C-Stick or both or something. I could be totally off base here, but I believe that's how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[:034:]

I just pummel with A. I wouldn't know about using the C-stick and Z to get full speed with Samus...

 

[fromundaman]

Well, we have that Fsmash release on Wario, but that's not new... Can we do that on MK btw?

 

[Finns7]

I dont think, also im sorry Ive been gone guys, ive been playing brawl+ lately trying to persuade people not to **** ganon. (can you believe at some point they said his thunderstomp wasnt needed)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I dont think, also im sorry Ive been gone guys, ive been playing brawl+ lately trying to persuade people not to **** ganon. (can you believe at some point they said his thunderstomp wasnt needed)

Isn't this what you always say, whenever you check these boards?

 

[Z1GMA]

Dsmash isn't that bad... It has its uses.
I'll bust the myth soon!

But now it's bed time... ZZZzzz

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-smash...D-smash is basically a situational damage dealer. Since it's one of Ganon's more situational attacks, you might as well diminish it for dealing damage to opponents if there is an opportunity.

You might as well use it if you see your opponent open enough to be hit by it after they whiffed something moderately laggy close to you. D-smash out of shield is also moderately viable, again if they whiffed something, or if you are good at powershielding. D-smash has good qualities like range, and coming out not so horribly slow (15 frames is almost too slow....but it's better than the >20 frames of Ganon's other Smashes. <_<). It does 19% on both hits, which IS very good (the same damage as Bowser's Klaw).

The Back hit has reasonably low ending lag....but if you whiff the first hit on someone who didn't just roll behind you, you're surely going to be punished. And no, just because the back hit has good knockback and low ending lag, it's not safe on block at all. For the dumbest reason ever, if you land the back hit on someone's shield, it pulls them TOWARDS you. wtf?

And just saying right now. This attack doesn't kill. AT ALL. No seriously. I've had people survive this at like 150% UNDIMINISHED. Actually I lied. It only kills lightweights. Just keep that in mind when you go up against Jigglypuff (G&W will Bucket Brake it and survive. Fox will DI and fastfall to negate the knockback).

Oh yeah, and this attack covers entire platforms. Pretty useful on Norfair if you ask me.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Oh, interesting tidbit! Not really anything important, but still.

If you manage to PS a Wizkick or Falcon Kick, it's perfectly easy to stutter-step Fsmash to punish it right out of shield.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Which reminds me:

Ganon's F-smash does more knockback in close range.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Which reminds me:

Ganon's F-smash does more knockback in close range.

As opposed to its invisible Aura hitbox?

 

[@HomE]

At 7:46 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Q72qUFTy0

the F smash has CRAZY knockback, killing toon link at 31% from more the half way across the smashville

 

[Z1GMA]

There's only one smash in the entire game that can send your opponent the "wrong" direction..
And that would be Ganon's Dsmash.
(Some other smashes can be discussed; like DK's Dsmash)

Its raw power sux. But if you think of it as a bthrow, it's pretty **** cool!
It's like a faster version of Toonlink's Grab, but without the "grab-attributes", of course.

It's Ganon's: "Get your *** over here, so I can edge guard you!"-move
(Assuming Ganon is close to the ledge; facing in towards the stage)

At low to mid %'s.. Dsmash -> Uair-gimp/Dair-spike, is lethal!

Summary : Dsmash, situationaly works like a very quick bthrow with good range; that can quickly put your opponent in a tight recovery-spot.
And it can be very good for punishing, Just like A2ZOMG, said.

 

[Super_Smasher6]

I use the downsmash more often now, its a good damage dealer (19 %), and it has very good range!, but be carefull with it because if you miss the first kick, you will get kicked in return, and its easy to DI

Also, like A2ZOMG said, its nearly impossible to kill someone (especially the heavy weight) with that attack unless they have 150 %...

 

[PK-ow!]

Is there some possible way we can use the fact of Ganon's standing grab being faster than every other character's?

We're one frame faster than the next fastest grabbers, equaled by no one, at 13 frames.

That's on a whiff - from start to shield.


It has ****ty range, but we should be able to use it "safe" like no other character. If we implement a tactic that recognizes this, we could become more threatening at point blank range.

... I'm not sure if this question belongs here. It calls for a longer discussion than the QnA thread.

 

[hyperstation]

Is there some possible way we can use the fact of Ganon's standing grab being faster than every other character's?

We're one frame faster than the next fastest grabbers, equaled by no one, at 13 frames.

That's on a whiff - from start to shield.


It has ****ty range, but we should be able to use it "safe" like no other character. If we implement a tactic that recognizes this, we could become more threatening at point blank range.

... I'm not sure if this question belongs here. It calls for a longer discussion than the QnA thread.

To answer your question...YES.

If you've played a good Ganon, they will often grab on instinct if any attack is shielded, powershielded, or missed for any reason within grab range. They'll then pummel the maximum number of times available before you could grab release and probably Fthrow you for massive damage (unless they choose Dthrow for combos or Bthrow for edge guarding convenience). If you're playing Ganon and you're NOT taking advantage of his grab speed, you're not playing him at full potential. Salty Kracka, for example, is a great grabber. If he shields any of your attacks, you're getting grabbed, no questions asked.

 

[PK-ow!]

Hmm... I haven't seen any vids of Salty. Watching gameplay really helps me (I can go weeks at a time without playing, pick up my controller, and to within a degree of technical fumbling, implement things I've watched to play better than I last did).

Oh and does this mean you're back from wherever you were, hyperstation? <3

 

[fromundaman]

Hehe... Yeah, Ganon's grab (despite the ****ty T-rex arm range), especially the RPG is pretty awesome (is it slower?). The only problem with consistently grabbing OoS is the bad range means that any shield pushback will result in a whiff. Thankfully, the grab is fast enough that I rarely get punished *too* hard.

 

[Z1GMA]

*Bump*
(It almost disapeared)

 

[Squirrely]

There's about twenty more threads to bump while you're at it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's grab is a frame SLOWER than average.

Average standing grab is frame 6.

Ganon's is 7.

I know, it's incredibly lame and stupid. Still, I highly suggest getting as many grabs as possible. Just because you get grab attacks in, and you get to choose where your opponent goes while dealing damage. F-throw is also something you MUST abuse since it does 13% (even better when you consider it gets people offstage).

Also once in a blue moon I'll randomly kill someone with B-throw at 180% and feel very satisfied I saved my B-throw just for that.

 

[:034:]

It comes out a frame slower but ends the fastest of all grabs (I believe at frame 13).

 

[Z1GMA]

There's about twenty more threads to bump while you're at it.

Compared to most of them, this one is somewhat important.

 

[Z1GMA]

DK's cargo throw stage spike, now a busted MYTH!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227161
This can help us a little Vs DK..

 

[:034:]

How will that help you when they're directly by the edge?

Better solution: l2ledgetech.