Official Ganon Edgeguarding

[spider_sense]

Next one should be for Luigi, Ice Climbers, and Peach.

 

[-ACE-]

I'll try to quit slacking soon and update this, just depends on how bored I am this week lol

 

[-ACE-]

Update: I lost everything on my comp due to several viruses/spyware (I think spybot found like 47 trojan horses rofl). I had a bunch of rough draft writeups completed too. I'll type up some stuff soon.

Moral of the Story: NEVER, EVER go to thepiratebay.org and type "Southpark Season 2" and click search. EVER. That's all I did lol.

 

[Gardevior]

That sucks Ace. Just get it up before Billfest and you'll be good.

Next time use Sandboxie while browsing on those kind of sites.

 

[spider_sense]

Update: I lost everything on my comp due to several viruses/spyware (I think spybot found like 47 trojan horses rofl). I had a bunch of rough draft writeups completed too. I'll type up some stuff soon.

Moral of the Story: NEVER, EVER go to thepiratebay.org and type "Southpark Season 2" and click search. EVER. That's all I did lol.

We know you were searching porn. It's all good brah. j/k

 

[Gardevior]

Ace, where you at? I'm stuck trying to edgeguard Peach and failing miserably.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Chaddd told me all you need to do to edgeguard Peach is to just hit her and she'll DI super high (if she doesn't she'll just die). So when she does go super high above the stage (stalk around the edge at first if she's offstage and hit her if she drops to go for it) just use your mobility (long wavedashes) to stay underneath her and Uair her over and over and over again until she eventually dies.

 

[Gardevior]

That's basically what I've been doing. I was wondering if there was a more efficient way, though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you're amazing you can probably sneak Fairs or Bairs instead of Uairs sometimes and possibly kill her.

 

[kupo15]

Facing away from her can be good to mindgame a turnaround ftilt if she tries to close the chute early to grab the ledge.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm can we get some mario's of some sort up here? be it doc, normal, or luigi, i kinda wanna see how you deal with each part of the recorvery, and what to think about, when.

 

[Dogysamich]

Edgeguarding a Mario/Doc with Ganon.

Goal: You're pretty much looking for him to do something completely in your range, and then you go in and blast him for it. If you cant get out and hit him, he probably cant make it to the ledge if you're holding it.

Worst case scenario: You want to force them to up+b on the stage. Although they'll have their jumps back, the up+b is horribly punishable, preferably sending them back off to start the whole process again.

-It's not exactly the hardest thing for you to do, as scary as his recovery may look (and to some people, they are somehow terrified of a mario/doc recovery), it's actually just a bunch of lies.
​

1) Projectiles (Fireballs/Pills)

-A vast majority of Mario/Doc players will throw their projectile and come in straight behind it. If it's in your range, you destroy this free. U.air through, b.air through, if you wanna troll you can do a down-b from the stage in a line. Their main objective by throwing projectiles is to either keep you from coming out (in which case they WILL still be going towards the stage), or to make you move*.
​

-*If they're looking to make you move, this is what you have to be careful of. At this point and time, smart mario/docs might pull back so that you CANT go hit them. At this point, all you're looking to do is hold the ground and deal with the projectile. (Hold your ground might be keep your position on stage, or keep yourself on the ledge.

-If you're on the ledge, look for them to throw pills and continue coming in. If you see this, ledgedrop -> dj -> b.air. That's like, the Mario/Doc killer. Or the ****** killed atleast. I think I'ma dub this the Dogy slayer. XD


​

2) Tornado

-If it's in range, destroy it. Mario/Doc has absolutely NO reason to do this if you can come hit them.
​

-If they do it under the stage to make you move from the ledge, all you have to do is move and then go back. As long as you don't roll or do a >100% getup, you can make it back before they do. (Don't quote me on this cause I don't know ganon like the back of my hand, but i'm pretty sure you could just jump from the like (like, your actual ledge jump), and make it back before Mario/Doc can up+b to the ledge)
​

3) Floating back

-You have to throw a little (read, a VERY little) caution to a Mario/Doc who's just floating back to the stage. At this point, you'll run into two problems, those being~~
​

a) Mario/Doc hanging out a variety of aerials. The only one that really would cause you any problem is a d.air, as it eats through your moves if you space incorrectly. Spacing correctly leads to, at worst, a trade. Trades are good for you at this point cause you take like, 4% (OMG OW), and they die. High five, go flash tech and get ready for the next stock.
​

b) Cape. Here's the thing about cape, though, it only works if YOU (Ganon) "space correctly". Think about it, it only flips your character around, it doesn't change you momentum, so if you were going to jump through him and he capes, you'll STILL JUMP THROUGH HIM, you'll just be facing backwards.

tl;dr, if you expect him to cape you when you get out there, jump past him and like, b.air or u.air or something like that.

​

4) Up+b

You don't wanna be off the stage trying to stop this, simply because you're liable to get up+b spiked if you're below the stage. Ledge or stage, those are your two options. If you want style points, you can try a d.air (if you're like, tryin to get back), but i mean, he's gunna meteor.

yeah, magnet hands, blah blah, but if you're on stage, try to do a SF f.air (not SHFFL, straight SH f.air). Ya know, the one where the hitbox goes below the stage? That's a real safe honesty check on Mario/Doc's sweetspoting.

If you can't do it, the other fail-safe move is to just hold the **** ledge. Like, holding the ledge slays Doc's recovery, and make Mario beg for walls so he can have false hope and all that. Get the ledge, hold the inv, let em get back, put em back off.

I mean, you can even style on em and do like, waveland -> turnaround down+b and punt 'em back off.

​

That's like, basically what you need to know.

If all else fails, just go with Plan X. Plan X = reverse u.air. You literally could do it for EVERY situation in this, and well, it sends them down, aaaaaaaaaand down sucks for mario/doc. Sooooooo yeah.

___

THERE, YOU HAPPY MR BLACKCHRIS?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

happy as a clam, and now i hope you come to herb 4, whenever that is, so i can use these on you.


especially the dogy slayer

 

[Dogysamich]

*laughs hysterically*

It's really just mario/doc knowledge, but I try to convince myself that it'll work everytime.

"They're on the ledge so I'm going to -> -throw a pill- to make them move. Yeah, they -moved- like I wanted to, but the problem is, they -moved under and b.aired me-. Kool s***, bro."

Im pretty sure I've been hit by some variation of this from EVERY character in the **** game.

 

[VGmasta]

*Reads Dogy long wall of green slime and nods head*

Leave it to Dogy to beat to these Doc/Mario responses.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

any ideas on edgeguarding samus? dealing with her chain, bombs, up B, and crazy air mobility shenanigans is giving me trouble.

 

[Gardevior]

If you can jump into her bombs without double jumping, I sometimes do that so samus has to actually do work to recover. Most samuses sweetspot their up-b, but you can tipman her to infinity if she doesn't.

I have no idea how to deal with the tether, especially if they need to up-b and sweetspot it.

My .02.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i wish jumping into their bombs worked. but if i get close to her bombs, she'll nair me. i try so many uair/bair tricks, but when she's in the ball after a bomb, she just moves so much, that if i try to get inside, the bomb will hit me before my aerial happens, but if i space too much, i won't get the hit. if i come out too strong like with a fair, she'll hold away, then FF under me, and either grapple or up b for the ledge. when she grapples low, i try to catch the ledge, so i can ledgedrop uair her, but sometimes that fails too. i just got finished playing with a samus from like 1-6, so i'm not speaking completely theoretically here...these are the things that i couldn't get around today. we recorded a lot, but idk how much of them he'll put up.

in the end though, he got back to the edge a lot more than i wish he did.

 

[Linguini]

Edgeguarding samus is actually quite a linear ordeal. You can either choose to play it safe and edgeguard from the stage or do it from the ledge/jump off the stage.

Stage: Pretty much, if samus is coming from medium height or from above you can use bairs/uairs to keep her off, if she's coming from below uair is always your best option unless she doesn't sweetspot the up b or the grapple, then you can simply bair her. Higher level samus' usually sweetspot the grapple so this is then off the stage edgeguarding is most beneficial.

Off the Stage: Grabbing the ledge against samus and doing a drop off uair is great for countering a grapple from below, just make sure you don't get to reckless with this because it can easily go wrong and result in an early death. Dropzone fairs are actually really good against samus, as well as normal fairs off the stage. Bairs are usually more safe but a well placed fair is auto-death for samus. The cool thing is that if she's bomb jumping it will hit you and you can automatically up b back regardless if you land the hit on her or not.

Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4G0va5Ntw

That's me vs Hugs, there might be some good stuff in there, I only watched part of it.

 

[spider_sense]

I haven't played any Samus players in awhile, but I remember playing Catrell in friendlies and he got annoyed whenever I hit him with the ledge hop uair, because it covered his up-b options completely. So try that and see how far that takes you.

 

[-ACE-]

Updated with Doc/Mario info from Dogy.

 

[-ACE-]

Posted some info on good ol' Luweeg. Feel free to ask or discuss whatever!

 

[Winston]

Doesn't ledgestalling let Ganon cover all of Luigi's options? To make it back, Luigi has to in some way get close enough to the edge to up B to it, and all of the ways he can get there should make him vulnerable to an invincible ledgedrop uair, bair, or stomp. If he releases his side B high to try to get on the stage you can do a high ledgehop uair/bair and regrab the edge, or you can let him go on, waveland -> punish the landing lag.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

unless they're high enough to do one or two side b's and drift to the stage. And with the way ganon hits, with good DI from luigi, it's higly likely that if they're recovering from anywhere, they're high enough to drift to the stage.

 

[Winston]

What do you mean by drift to the stage? When he comes near the stage you jump and hit him.

 

[-ACE-]

Doesn't ledgestalling let Ganon cover all of Luigi's options? To make it back, Luigi has to in some way get close enough to the edge to up B to it, and all of the ways he can get there should make him vulnerable to an invincible ledgedrop uair, bair, or stomp. If he releases his side B high to try to get on the stage you can do a high ledgehop uair/bair and regrab the edge, or you can let him go on, waveland -> punish the landing lag.

This is fine for the most part, but you'd be passing up possible KO opportunities just by allowing luigi to get that close to you/the stage. If Luigi uses his side-b too close to the stage, you need to be out there punching it, period. There is no single answer to every edgeguarding situation in any matchup, there are (usually) many. Even with this great (yet somewhat risky) overall strat that you proposed, if you get predictable you won't get the KO every time. Don't forget luigi has a great airdodge, and if he's good with his down-B and has his jump, it's never super easy to kill him.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah i was thinking about that airdodge too. if they're high enough to float to platforms, they will airdodge the "jump and hit him" and fastfall to the platform. thats where you have to be off the edge, off the stage, to prevent them from floating back all the way to the stage at that height. can't really cover that off the ledge...

 

[Winston]

Yeah, I was saying you should hit him out of his side b lag from the ledgestall.

I do like just waiting for him to side b and going out to hit him for the most part, but it seems like that would make you vulnerable to a misfire. If you can react to the misfire consistently while still being able to hit him otherwise then that's obviously better. I just don't know if you can.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Please post info on Samus next. She seems like impossible to edgeguard.

 

[-ACE-]

Samus might be next, we'll see. She has a very non-linear recovery so I'm going to expect some discussion after I dish out a rough draft.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if the samus can sweetspot the ledge to the point where her grapple pulls her straight to grabbing the ledge...i don't think its possible to cover her options. whatever we throw at her, she can airdodge and move horizontally before we finish an uair/bair. if we go out farther than her grapple beam, it would take two jumps, which would leave us really open to getting gimped, and limits our options on how to attack and get back.

i played a lot of matches against NC's primary samus (JMH), and i tried tons of tricks, wavedash off reverse uair, double uair, uair to bair, fair, dropzone bair/uair but for the most part, between bomb jumps and that grapple hook...its really hard to keep her off.

sorry if that seemed pessimistic...thats only my outlook from a fairly sour point of view. it felt like more effort than it was worth...

 

[-ACE-]

I know what you mean Chris. Sometimes it takes a lot of good reads just to keep her offstage/take the stock. Being unpredictable in edgeguarding is truly an art with Ganon, it's not easy to keep someone constantly guessing if they are familiar with Ganon's options.

And btw, you can still reverse uair the grapple sweetspot. It's just hard and you have to essentially read the samus like a pop-up book. I did that years ago to Vilt's samus in tourney to end the set and he was in shock haha (drop reverse uair from lower platform on BF).

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh really? thats interesting information.

if i ever see a fox going straight up on battlefield or dreamland, i will runoff and tipman them so that they end up under the stage. its really effective, and if you do it right, they can't tech. its like a shine. i do it a lot, and the only danger is that if you try to do it when you cant runoff in time, the up B will hit you.

 

[-ACE-]

I've done that a bit myself. The goal of course is to intercept Fox before his up-B goes into motion, but if you can't, that isn't bad. Just a tad risky like you mentioned. I'd probably bair him offstage and be ready to tilt any illusion attempt afterward... or if he's low enough to sweetspot, reverse uair and follow up accordingly.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

true. Once spoon uploads the vids, you can see where I apply it. It's best on dreamland and battlefield cause after you push them under, you don't have to contest for the ledge. It works on the other stages, but after the uair, they can come back, so you just have to make sure you get to the edge first, which can get tricky.

aaaah I want those vids to get upppp

 

[-ACE-]

Oh I definitely see what you mean. I just prefer to contest the up-B with something disjointed and easy to space like bair. I hate trading hits, and typically I don't like to go offstage unless there's something guaranteed.

 

[DippnDots]

And btw, you can still reverse uair the grapple sweetspot. It's just hard and you have to essentially read the samus like a pop-up book. I did that years ago to Vilt's samus in tourney to end the set and he was in shock haha (drop reverse uair from lower platform on BF).

You gotta jump off the stage for this but bair works wonders if they do that air dodge into the grapple thing, you can be over the grapple and have the hitbox hit her helmet, basically sets you up for reverse uairs against samus' up-b if it doesn't kill them. I really love it when samus' like to wait till the very end of their air dodge to use the grapple because they practically give it to you.

1. Pick up on habits
2. Punish habits
0. Don't get hit

Something i've been meaning to try is wavedashing off the stage as she gets the grapple and then bair/reverse uair, i'd like to see if you can DI in a way that either attack will either hit samus when she pulls herself in or as she's falling (to go dangle) after getting the grapple. I think you'd need impeccable timing if it's even possible.

 

[-ACE-]

You gotta jump off the stage for this but bair works wonders if they do that air dodge into the grapple thing, you can be over the grapple and have the hitbox hit her helmet, basically sets you up for reverse uairs against samus' up-b if it doesn't kill them. I really love it when samus' like to wait till the very end of their air dodge to use the grapple because they practically give it to you.

Nah, I meant an onstage Tipman spike. Like I said you have to have one hell of a read on samus so it's not always practical but it can hit her out of the grapple sweetspot every time. And what you said about bair is true, that works quite well.

Something i've been meaning to try is wavedashing off the stage as she gets the grapple and then bair/reverse uair, i'd like to see if you can DI in a way that either attack will either hit samus when she pulls herself in or as she's falling (to go dangle) after getting the grapple. I think you'd need impeccable timing if it's even possible.

If you can predict it, yeah this is great. Wavedashing off the stage into bair (or reverse uair) usually surprises them, you just can't get predictable with it. If you're going offstage you'd want to hit her before the airdodge/grapple (often requires a read). If they airdodge or grapple early I'd stay on stage and reverse uair or bair like you mentioned earlier.

 

[-ACE-]

Bump since edgeguarding is so important and I've been seeing some new people around the G boards.

 

[Jim & Watch]

i learned a lot, definetly using a lot of this. i hardly knew how to gimp marth, now i do.