DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
I can use anything, except the gamestop controllers. I -miraculously- won a Mario Kart DD tournament with them, but it's so awkward and different compared the feel of Nintendo GC controllers. Maybe it's just me...
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Gamestop Tournament Tips and Info!
- Thread starter ThePUNK
- Start date
MetaKevin
Smash Cadet
Considering I started reading this post when it was already 40 pages long, it's been quite the sitting. But I wanted to go ahead and say my hat's off to Mookie. I found your points not only intriguing, but saw really little or no reason a casual should take offense to them. Seemed like common sense to me, too.
Just be careful feeding those trolls, man!
Just be careful feeding those trolls, man!
Idfection
Smash Apprentice
Hey, I visited one of the Gamestops that was listed online, and they said that their store is NO LONGER hosting a brawl tourney. So keep checking in with your own gamestops just to be sure.
NDUDE
Smash Ace
Can you shake smash aerials with the nunchuck as if using a c-stick?
DragoonXD
Smash Cadet
I'll admit I'm a very casual player. Try Super Sudden Death on 99 stock with only bob-ombs. I never even followed the competitive smash scene until I became obsessed with reading about Brawl. I've never even know what wavedashing and similar things are, but I always thought I was good. I can usually destroy my friends. I'm not trying to say I'm better than anybody.
I just wanted to try and make a point. I've skimmed through most of the topic after page 30, and all your aguments about casual and competitive. I interpret that you think the casual players have no chance. Competitive players practice and use advanced technique and whatnot, but why are competitive players necessarily better? I also read the argument about psyching people out and nerves, etc. I believe that casuals would be better at handling those situations. Consider the fact they usually play for fun. If they're just competing for the heck of it, would they really be rattled by a superior player? I have played in a couple of other tournaments before, and not once did I expect to win. The Mario Kart Double Dash tournament I mentioned above, was one I didn't even think I'd get past the first round. Instead I made it to the finals (which were three races in which the 4 finalists got points based on the place they finished), and got 4th in the 1st of 3 races. Based on that experience, I don't think you have any right to say casual players don't know how to handle a tournament environment. I realize it's a far different game, but the mentality is my point. I know I'm going to get an earful for reigniting this argument. I just want to have one question answered, why is there such a huge grudge between these two groups of players?
Seriously, even if you play casually, do you want to lose? I doubt it. Isn't that the same comcept as in tournaments, you don't want to lose? Why can't everybody play in the same community? Anyways...on topic.
---
I want to know why this tourney is one minute matches. It gives people no chance for a comeback -essentially- if they're the first player to fall. Even just 2 stock would be better. I actually played bonus the most in Melee (I like scores), and this is dumb. I agree with the D3 and Ike people. It makes heavier characters a much better character selection. I prefer speed characters, like Pikachu, Marth, and Falco, and I plan to use Pikachu in the tourney. I'm starting to think it'd be a bad idea based on the rules. I think even using Samus and spamming projectiles would work better =/
Ok, I'm done. Let the flaming flood gates open =D That's ironic...flaming...flood gates... 0.o
I just wanted to try and make a point. I've skimmed through most of the topic after page 30, and all your aguments about casual and competitive. I interpret that you think the casual players have no chance. Competitive players practice and use advanced technique and whatnot, but why are competitive players necessarily better? I also read the argument about psyching people out and nerves, etc. I believe that casuals would be better at handling those situations. Consider the fact they usually play for fun. If they're just competing for the heck of it, would they really be rattled by a superior player? I have played in a couple of other tournaments before, and not once did I expect to win. The Mario Kart Double Dash tournament I mentioned above, was one I didn't even think I'd get past the first round. Instead I made it to the finals (which were three races in which the 4 finalists got points based on the place they finished), and got 4th in the 1st of 3 races. Based on that experience, I don't think you have any right to say casual players don't know how to handle a tournament environment. I realize it's a far different game, but the mentality is my point. I know I'm going to get an earful for reigniting this argument. I just want to have one question answered, why is there such a huge grudge between these two groups of players?
Seriously, even if you play casually, do you want to lose? I doubt it. Isn't that the same comcept as in tournaments, you don't want to lose? Why can't everybody play in the same community? Anyways...on topic.
---
I want to know why this tourney is one minute matches. It gives people no chance for a comeback -essentially- if they're the first player to fall. Even just 2 stock would be better. I actually played bonus the most in Melee (I like scores), and this is dumb. I agree with the D3 and Ike people. It makes heavier characters a much better character selection. I prefer speed characters, like Pikachu, Marth, and Falco, and I plan to use Pikachu in the tourney. I'm starting to think it'd be a bad idea based on the rules. I think even using Samus and spamming projectiles would work better =/
Ok, I'm done. Let the flaming flood gates open =D That's ironic...flaming...flood gates... 0.o
Awesomethreat
Smash Cadet
I'm a semi-casual player but I still think I can do well in the tournament, is there any hope for fox? Or should I just stick with Ike or DDD?
I'm probably going to go with Fox, Zelda, or Ike. Dedede seems like he'd be somewhat tougher to get used to. Ike is strong as hell though so you can just dodge around until you get your chance to strike. Fox is good too and should be considered especially if you've used him extensively in Melee.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
the grudge stems from the fact that the competitive players have sat in this forum for years, trying to needle down a perfect brawl match in their little cave dwelling. Now more people are becoming interested in the game, and when they voice their opinions, the old cave dwellers are getting light shone upon them (yes .. i guess im taking this from aristotles Republic.) And they are freaking out.
They feel that they are the ones who forged the path for what competitive smash is, and they dont want to change it for any of the new players coming in.
That is the melee debate, which is going over into Brawl.
The cave dwellers feel like, since they were self proclaimed experts of melee, they must be experts of Brawl as well, since brawl should have been Melee 2. (of course, not all of them think this way .. but a majority do). Well ... Brawl wasnt melee 2, so why are the self proclaimed expert cave dwellers still talking as if they pathed the way?
The trail is just begginning, and the "Competitive crowd" which DOESNT EVEN EXIST YET for brawl is going off on the same trail they took for melee, while the "casual" crowd are running in totally different directions and bumping heads.
Since were all not on the same path, were fighting. The old competitive crowd figures, "hey, we did it for melee, and we had fun, and it worked, so lets do the SAME EXACT thing for brawl, and stick to the tried and true method" They simply refuse to try anything new.
Casuals on the other hand, arent trapped in the groove beecause they never experienced the initial growth that the competitive players did. So therefor casuals are trying their best try out new things, which competitive players argue, they have already tried, and won't work.
Although, that was Melee, this is Brawl. Old cave dwellers should realize that they cant use melees path, they must start ALL over.
Yes, I believe yuna mentioned in another topic that a lot of things can be rationalized quickly and easily, such as unfair stages. But seriously...i think they are jumping the gun. Just play the game for a month or two, have fun with it, and things will start falling into place.
Anyway .. thats my analysis .. . i didnt reread it, and im not going to, so apoligize if it repeats a few things, or is slightly confusing. I started off in a bad mood, and calmed down as i wrote...So sorry if the top seems harsh.
They feel that they are the ones who forged the path for what competitive smash is, and they dont want to change it for any of the new players coming in.
That is the melee debate, which is going over into Brawl.
The cave dwellers feel like, since they were self proclaimed experts of melee, they must be experts of Brawl as well, since brawl should have been Melee 2. (of course, not all of them think this way .. but a majority do). Well ... Brawl wasnt melee 2, so why are the self proclaimed expert cave dwellers still talking as if they pathed the way?
The trail is just begginning, and the "Competitive crowd" which DOESNT EVEN EXIST YET for brawl is going off on the same trail they took for melee, while the "casual" crowd are running in totally different directions and bumping heads.
Since were all not on the same path, were fighting. The old competitive crowd figures, "hey, we did it for melee, and we had fun, and it worked, so lets do the SAME EXACT thing for brawl, and stick to the tried and true method" They simply refuse to try anything new.
Casuals on the other hand, arent trapped in the groove beecause they never experienced the initial growth that the competitive players did. So therefor casuals are trying their best try out new things, which competitive players argue, they have already tried, and won't work.
Although, that was Melee, this is Brawl. Old cave dwellers should realize that they cant use melees path, they must start ALL over.
Yes, I believe yuna mentioned in another topic that a lot of things can be rationalized quickly and easily, such as unfair stages. But seriously...i think they are jumping the gun. Just play the game for a month or two, have fun with it, and things will start falling into place.
Anyway .. thats my analysis .. . i didnt reread it, and im not going to, so apoligize if it repeats a few things, or is slightly confusing. I started off in a bad mood, and calmed down as i wrote...So sorry if the top seems harsh.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Hey frost, if you're going to come across as a pedantic *******, you might as well get it right,
it's PLATO'S "Allegory of the Cave".
And you are completely abusing and misusing it. All you've done is give Greek philosophers a bad name.
Basically the division boils down to this: Casuals (the whiny ones, NOT all of them) tend to think of the Competitives as elitists who resort to cheap tactics and don't actually play Smash for the fun.
It's as if in the NBA, a fan called the Lakers of yore cheap because Shaq was so much bigger than everyone that passing it to him was an immediate score.
This rubs the Competitives the wrong way, who are absolutely right in stating that on average, a Competitive is a more efficient smash player than a Casual.
This rubs the Casuals the wrong way, who complain that the Compies have no honor, play the game the way it wasn't meant to be played, yada ya.
And frost, the reason why they want to "stick to the tried-and-true method" is because their reasons for using that method haven't changed:
Items haven't magically become de-randomized
Stages with random obstacles haven't been de-randomized.
##Note in passing that I don't mean all Competitives, nor do I mean all Casuals. I have been both and known plenty on both sides who couldn't give two ****s less what the other was doing.##
it's PLATO'S "Allegory of the Cave".
And you are completely abusing and misusing it. All you've done is give Greek philosophers a bad name.
Basically the division boils down to this: Casuals (the whiny ones, NOT all of them) tend to think of the Competitives as elitists who resort to cheap tactics and don't actually play Smash for the fun.
It's as if in the NBA, a fan called the Lakers of yore cheap because Shaq was so much bigger than everyone that passing it to him was an immediate score.
This rubs the Competitives the wrong way, who are absolutely right in stating that on average, a Competitive is a more efficient smash player than a Casual.
This rubs the Casuals the wrong way, who complain that the Compies have no honor, play the game the way it wasn't meant to be played, yada ya.
And frost, the reason why they want to "stick to the tried-and-true method" is because their reasons for using that method haven't changed:
Items haven't magically become de-randomized
Stages with random obstacles haven't been de-randomized.
##Note in passing that I don't mean all Competitives, nor do I mean all Casuals. I have been both and known plenty on both sides who couldn't give two ****s less what the other was doing.##
I'd like to preface this by saying that this does not apply to ALL "casual" players just as just about everything said in this thread does. These statements are based simply on trends among the population. There will always be exceptions.
As Mookie explained, there are two reasons why tourney players are better than home-schooled smashers in general. The first is that home-schooled smashers develop bad habits. Because they play against a limited crowd of people, usually the one to five friends who get together to play video games on the weekends, they develop strategies that work against their friends. Furthermore, they learn what their friends will do in certain situations, so **** comes to his first tournament and uses his anti-Bob strategies on Joe-tourney-goer who plays nothing like Bob, leaving him open, partially ineffective, and likely frustrated.
The second reason is that tourney players learn how to read their opponents. By watching for repetitive actions in their opponent's play-style they can find holes and exploit them. For example, many home-schooled smashers tend to always roll behind their opponent or tech every landing or tech roll in one direction every time or DI in a certain direction against every hit. The tourney player will pick up on this and use it against you.
So continuing our example, **** knows that Bob always falls for Combo A. Bob and Joe play the same character, so there's a chance Combo A will work on Joe. **** tries Combo A once and succeeds, so **** tries Combo A again and maybe succeeds. At this point, Joe knows that **** will probably try Combo A again, dodges the first attack and gets a Smash attack in. This happens again and again and again because **** only knows how to play against Bob and Joe knows what **** is going to do.
Again, this is not true of all Smashers. Some tourney players aren't as good as others at reading their opponents, they just have better technical skill. Some home-school Smashers are good at reading their opponents despite not having fought a wide variety of people. I know one of each personally.
Edit: Apparently if your nickname happens to be short for Frederick you can't use it on this board.....
Symphony X
Smash Lord
I'm thinking about Kirby - He's who I want to main in Brawl - And I'm already familiar with his moveset.
Bad idea?
600th Post!
Bad idea?
600th Post!
From the videos I've watched, no or at least not for as insanely long as it did in Melee.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Symphony, he's not bad, ESPECIALLY if you are familiar with him already. However, he is very light, and remember that you will be playing with items that can KO you relatively quickly.
go with what will make you confident.
go with what will make you confident.
I'd beg to differ. This divide between the "casual" and "competitive" crowds has existed for much longer than what your post would imply. It's simply become aggravated as a new wash of Smashers comes to this community to gain information about Brawl.
To say exactly why this divide began is difficult and there's certainly blame on both sides. To be as general as possible, it's simply human nature. There exists a group of people who aligns with a certain viewpoint. They do not call this viewpoint into question until a new one is brought up. From simply having lived with their own for so long they immediately cast aside this new viewpoint and steadfastly defend their own. Neither viewpoint is wrong, they're just different.
To apply this to Smash, a competitive crowd began to evolve from the previously homogeneous group of Smash Brothers players. This crowd brought in new ideas including Advanced Techniques, Stage Bans, and turning off items. Certain sects of the now casual community cast this idea aside... loudly. At the same time, certain sects of the new competitive community railed on about casual play-style... loudly. Each side heard only the loudest members of the other and assumed, naively, that those people represented the majority of the other crowd.
This happens in plenty of other places besides the Smash community, there's the Pokemon community, the Mario Kart DS community, bipartisan politics, and plenty of other substantial places.
MetaKevin
Smash Cadet
I do agree that anyone who does not acknowledge by now that Brawl is a completely new game is a fool. But I also don't believe there are too many people left who honestly believe that they can win without trying anything new. Now that (thank goodness) the crying over removed AT's has died down at least a little bit, we're left with something undeniably new, and I get the impression that most anyone realizes this by now whether they've played Brawl or not.
But some things can't and have not changed. As long as there is rolling, there will be those who follow predictable rolling patterns. If you habitually waste your second jump out after being up-thrown, you're still as vulnerable as you ever were. These are the basic mistakes that "cave dwellers" and others can and will capitalize on if you do them, as Mookie eloquently explains throughout this thread.
I would consider myself by definition a casual Melee player, but perhaps a bit more skilled in adapting to various play styles than the average "casual". And I am both willing and anxious to take my metagame to a higher level in Brawl. I believe that people in my category (if you want to call it that) have as much of a shot at going somewhere competitively as those "cave dwellers" or old-timers.
However, I've found their ideas are still quite viable, and usually pretty thorough. And to say that they are elitist is really just an ego-saving technique for those who can't compete at their level. Any one of us is capable of becoming serious competitors and joining this rudely named "cave dweller" niche, if only we put in the effort and thought.
But some things can't and have not changed. As long as there is rolling, there will be those who follow predictable rolling patterns. If you habitually waste your second jump out after being up-thrown, you're still as vulnerable as you ever were. These are the basic mistakes that "cave dwellers" and others can and will capitalize on if you do them, as Mookie eloquently explains throughout this thread.
I would consider myself by definition a casual Melee player, but perhaps a bit more skilled in adapting to various play styles than the average "casual". And I am both willing and anxious to take my metagame to a higher level in Brawl. I believe that people in my category (if you want to call it that) have as much of a shot at going somewhere competitively as those "cave dwellers" or old-timers.
However, I've found their ideas are still quite viable, and usually pretty thorough. And to say that they are elitist is really just an ego-saving technique for those who can't compete at their level. Any one of us is capable of becoming serious competitors and joining this rudely named "cave dweller" niche, if only we put in the effort and thought.
Have no clue if this just Canada...
So... Does this rule vary among other stores? Or will this be pretty consistent for all Canadian events? Gawd I hope not...
Source: http://nintendo.ca/cgi-bin/usersite/display_info.cgi?id=23801&lang=en&pageNum=7
So... Does this rule vary among other stores? Or will this be pretty consistent for all Canadian events? Gawd I hope not...
There's nothing like that in the American rules, but I just gotta say, that really blows.....
NDUDE
Smash Ace
I take it that's only in Canada since it's on the Canadian Nintendo site, and there's no mention of the GS tourney on the U.S. Nintendo site (just the official Nintendo one). There's also no mention of that in the GS tourney rules, so I guess we're fine.Have no clue if this just Canada...
Source: http://nintendo.ca/cgi-bin/usersite/display_info.cgi?id=23801&lang=en&pageNum=7
So... Does this rule vary among other stores? Or will this be pretty consistent for all Canadian events? Gawd I hope not...
Good luck, Canada...
So, to pose an on-topic line of questioning, for those who have played Brawl, I'm curious if anyone can give me some suggestions on how to prepare for using the new characters. Now, I've seen that the top recommendations for the first round of the tournament are Ike, Dedede, and Lucas, which is all well and good, since I'm very interested in all three and would likely use one of them anyway; but since they're all new, starting to play them when I've never played Brawl before obviously won't be easy. This is complicated by the fact that in Melee, I'm a Marth player, and none of them play like Marth - Ike and Dedede are essentially his polar opposites, even.
So I'm curious how I might prepare myself for playing them. Would learning to play better as Ness in Melee or the original help with picking up Lucas in Brawl? Would learning Link (without using projectiles, obviously) or Ganondorf in Melee or the original help with picking up Ike in Brawl? Is there anyone at all in the past two games who could possibly prepare me to use Dedede? Or is all I can do just watch the videos and memorize each character's movesets and pick up a few tips from importers on their subforums? (Note: I don't and never have used wavedashing/l-canceling/etc in the past games, so falling into such habits as a result of playing them is not an issue with me.)
Zevox
So I'm curious how I might prepare myself for playing them. Would learning to play better as Ness in Melee or the original help with picking up Lucas in Brawl? Would learning Link (without using projectiles, obviously) or Ganondorf in Melee or the original help with picking up Ike in Brawl? Is there anyone at all in the past two games who could possibly prepare me to use Dedede? Or is all I can do just watch the videos and memorize each character's movesets and pick up a few tips from importers on their subforums? (Note: I don't and never have used wavedashing/l-canceling/etc in the past games, so falling into such habits as a result of playing them is not an issue with me.)
Zevox
Holy **** does that suck.Have no clue if this just Canada...
Source: http://nintendo.ca/cgi-bin/usersite/display_info.cgi?id=23801&lang=en&pageNum=7
So... Does this rule vary among other stores? Or will this be pretty consistent for all Canadian events? Gawd I hope not...
Wow. What a stupid rule. Go Nintendo!
Can't really answer your question too well Xevox, as I haven't touched Brawl myself. However, should you find that there's no character that can help you prepare, I highly recommend watching these videos if you want to use Ike:
http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1C5DD279A3CCDFF3
To see them in action, the playlist+video creator has lots and lots of matches to watch. It's certainly been helpful to me.
http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1C5DD279A3CCDFF3
To see them in action, the playlist+video creator has lots and lots of matches to watch. It's certainly been helpful to me.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
oh yeah .. my bad .. i was thinking of socrates when i said aristotle. . both ways i was way off lol. Its bee n4 years since i read it, my bad. And yeah, i know it had nothing to do with the topic, the only similarity was the fact that they never saw light. it really has nothing to do with my point
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
This just isnt true though. Its not home schooled smashers. .. its NON GAMERS that cant do this.
If i found a counter-striek buddy who was simply awesome at CS, and gave him Smash, his very first time every playing, im SURE, he would pick it up extremely fast, AND he would understand that he should switch up his moves and do mindgames. Mindgames are instinctive for a "gamer"
I tried making a thread about this a WHILE ago, and it was met with flaming, for god knows why.
you need a gamer mentality to succeed at games. And, just like learning a new language, its much harder to pick it up later on in your life.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
double .... sorry...time to upgrade servers smashboards!
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
frost, you're missing his point. YES, successful gamers need to be able to out think their opponents. However, successful out thinking of only average players isn't that difficult. They may only have to be out thinking people who play once a month, or twice a year. Regardless they only have to out think the few people they (on average) play against.
Tourney-goers, however, need to out think other players who (likely) play smash daily. This means that not only will they on average be playing against better competitors, but they will have to constantly be seeing patterns from new players.
Both of those factors lead up to the fact that successful out thinking of tournament players is USUALLY significantly harder.
Tourney-goers, however, need to out think other players who (likely) play smash daily. This means that not only will they on average be playing against better competitors, but they will have to constantly be seeing patterns from new players.
Both of those factors lead up to the fact that successful out thinking of tournament players is USUALLY significantly harder.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I like how I was crucified by casuals by talking about scrubs (there is a difference, scrubs are idiots, casuals simply don't play at tournaments) and then Frost, one of my critics, post something blatantly ignorant and full of spite towards pretty much the entirety of the competitive scene.
The competitive smashers started as casuals and worked their way up as they learned more about the game. Now a whole new batch of new players with new ideals question the long running and well documented standards that the competitive scene has set up. The thing is... we've been through this before and things really haven't changed that much. I personally have debated against both scrubs, and very smart well-minded casual players and seriously, they haven't been able to counter the vast wealth of knowledge that we base our rules off of.
The competitive scene isn't some kind of club of people who are wanting to remove all the aspects of smash that make it unique, we simply want a level playing field for competitive events.
The competitive smashers started as casuals and worked their way up as they learned more about the game. Now a whole new batch of new players with new ideals question the long running and well documented standards that the competitive scene has set up. The thing is... we've been through this before and things really haven't changed that much. I personally have debated against both scrubs, and very smart well-minded casual players and seriously, they haven't been able to counter the vast wealth of knowledge that we base our rules off of.
The competitive scene isn't some kind of club of people who are wanting to remove all the aspects of smash that make it unique, we simply want a level playing field for competitive events.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
mookie .. can you not read? what you said is EXACTLY what i said.
I dont like writing in absolutes, its boring, so i like making analogies. Im on this site for entertainment.
If i was going to write normally, without the need to debate for a few pages, here is what id say.....
The old crowd of smashers, the original founders of this site, grew up with melee and paved a way to the present day competitive scene. Through toil and strife, they figured out what works best for the current metagame for melee and 64.
These years of effort creates a sort of satisfaction, which can sometimes be seen as a sense of superiority when viewed by outsiders.
These outsiders, who are labeled casuals and scrubs, did not have the same experience growing up with this boards competitive scene.
Now that brawl is out, and melee is gone, The old crowd believes that they can skip ahead and go straight into a similiar comp. scene using the experiences they got from melee. The new players, want to start from the beginning.
When you get people who "seem" to act superior (not saying you really think you are), people get upset, and thus, fighting ensues.
Im with you mookie, as i stated in my previous post. Yes, we can avoid many things that are obvious. Once again ... i stated that in my original post. But I still believe, if you want to run a respectable site, you shouldn't just Yell to the majority of people , "WE KNOW THIS BETTER, WEVE DONE THIS, BELIEVE US" because, whether or not its actually true, it doesnt come across well to casuals.
Brawl is a new game. This comes up in almost every debate topic. A lot of "competitives" were hoping for melee 2, and even now that brawl is out, they are still looking for it within brawl.
Why cant we just make peace with everyone and leave melee, and all our experiences with it, OUT OF BRAWL. Doing so would ensure the most unique and fun, and the least imitative form of competitive brawling.
When you try and infuse Brawl with your melee experiences, you are detracting from Brawls own uniqueness and potential. I think that is the major gripe that casuals are saying.
On the flip side, What casuals arent picking up is that there are certianly some experiences that melee can teach us with brawl, such as random items. This didnt change from melee to brawl, so its the same.
Now ... to my own humble opinion. Anything that isnt identicle to melee should not be voiced out. Just play the game for a few months, have fun with it, enjoy it. Like i said earlier, our competitive natures will naturally figure things out.
The problem is, everyone is trying so hard, and as fast as they possibly can, to turn brawl into the same experience they had with melee, that like i said, it will never reach its full potential.
And thats that.
*edit
PS. I used casual and competitive the way this board uses it
I still dont think theyre the correct words to be used for the given situations though. HEHE ^_^Frost, you're contradicting yourself simply by acknowledging the existence of mindgames. As I'm sure you're aware, they're a technique based entirely on reading your opponent and predicting what he/she is going to do. Reading your opponent can only occur one of two ways, either you're aware of all the different ways your opponent can act in a given situation and react to the one that would be most advantageous to your opponent or you know that your opponent has a high tendency to do X so you react to X.
Yes, the examples I gave were extreme. Only the worst of players would approach with the same attacks every single time. But the thing is, after watching your opponent enough you can establish a percent chance of what he/she is going to do in many situations. In a more realistic example, many casual Smashers approach their opponents in one of two ways, a dash attack or a falling aerial. Knowing this and having watched my opponent play for a little while, if I see him/her running at me, I know the best thing to do is either shield grab or spot dodge and counter with a smash. It works. A lot. Plenty of people will attest to this.
Furthermore, changing your defense is something that does not occur to many people. It's not as intuitive. There are many people out there who choose one method of avoiding an attack and abuse it to all hell.
And finally, you can't deny that players develop habits. It's human nature. If you find something that works, you stick with it. The problem casual Smashers often come across is that they only fight a select number of people and thus only come up with strategies against those people. However, because the habit is ingrained in their play-style, it's difficult to change it. Often, the division between casual Smasher and competitive Smasher is recognizing and adjusting for your habits.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
i agree with you completely. Except for 1 thing.
The argument is that unless you compete in tournaments, you are unable to gain the experience needed to predict your opponent.
This is what youre saying right? I believe this is what behemoth was saying. let me repeat...
"Tourney-goers, however, need to out think other players who (likely) play smash daily. This means that not only will they on average be playing against better competitors, but they will have to constantly be seeing patterns from new players."
Yes ok.
So you mean to tell me, a group of smash players, who follow the metagame, and read up on strategies, even develop their own strategies, and who share gaming mindsets ... and who play all the different characters, would be unable to gain enough experience about each and every character that they wouldnt be able to formulate all the different outcomes for each situation, and then use it to their own advantage?
So youre[@behemoth mainly) saying .. the only way that people can do that , is by attending tournaments?
NO! not at all. I am living proof of this. I've played the game so much, i know every characters ability, i know ever frame, i know all the priorities, I know every move someone can make in the air, or on the ground, or right after an attack, and i adjust my strategy accordingly. In fact, i know all this simply by playing the game a lot and being receptive to the games mechanics. This is part of being a gamer, as i do it with every game i play, and im sure a lot of other smashers do as well.
Going to tournaments doesn't make you a better player. It simply gives you a place to learn. Its like taking piano lessons vs teaching yourself. It might be faster, or maybe more efficient, but it certainly isnt the only way.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
fr0st2k
Can YOU not read?! It's already been stated that smart casuals can beat scrubs and even dumb competitive players. What you said isn't new and been stated my others already such as Mookie, Yuna, and myself even before you posted about your CS friend.
Can YOU not read?! It's already been stated that smart casuals can beat scrubs and even dumb competitive players. What you said isn't new and been stated my others already such as Mookie, Yuna, and myself even before you posted about your CS friend.
ImpactAR
Smash Ace
Also it's clear that a player become better if you get more and more experience. Tournaments provide that opportunity, yes. Can you get experience else where? Yes, but tournaments are going to have the extremes which you can learn more. How good a player become is up to him/her and how smart he/she is. That what "competitive" players were trying to say to begin with.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
you got here late, so im not going to hold it against you.
This discussion is about where the beef between casuals and competitives surfaced.
Then it went into people saying the homeschool smashers dont get the experience that tournament players do.
perhaps you misread what i wrote, perhaps you misinterpreted, I recommend rereading it.
My comments had nothing to do with whether or not smart casuals can beat scrubs and even dumb competitive players. Please.... try and read the whole conversation [omitted].
Anyway. Each of my responses are directed at the quoted text. Try reading it in that form, and maybe itll make more sense to you.
NES n00b
Smash Master
Knowing and applying are two different things. I can tell you that I can knee spot dodgers if they spam it too much and sometimes I am actually successful at predicting their spotdodges, but it doesn't mean I am that good of manipulating or predicting my opponent to a super high degree to where it is not a problem yet. You have to attend tournies to make all stuff second nature. No johns. At least one of your friends have to go to tournies.
You can't be living proff until you show a time where you beat a well known tourney goer.
I believe that the only way to better read opponents and counter them is to play many, many different people, yes. Tournaments are not the only way to do this, no, but anyone who participates in a Smash Brothers club or attends Smashfests likely go to tournaments and will play competitively.
No, you and a bunch of pals sitting around playing this game for days upon weeks upon months upon years will NOT formulate every strategy possible. You criticize SWF for bringing an old view to an old view to a new game, but that same problem plagues the situation you've brought up. You'll cycle through the same possibilities over and over because you will keep looking at it the same way. Furthermore, at that point you're not really a casual Smasher, are you? While I may have only discussed casual Smashers and competitive players, there surely exists are crowd between the two of intermediate ability.
If you really believe that playing with the same group of people over and over allowed you to reach the level of play you claim to have reached, I'm sorry.
I agree that there are multiple ways to learn and tournaments are not the only way. Tournaments are simply a means of finding opponents. Fighting other people is the only way to learn past the basics and intermediate portions of the game.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
i have no proof .. The only tidbit i could even say is when i went to otacon. I was obviously playing some sort of skilled falcon and ganondorf, as they were constantly shffling, as well as wavedashing.
They fell like a rock in water. Could they have just been those dumb competitive players? possibly. probably. But yet. .. when i write about those types of players...the ones that memorize only advanced techniques, and never bother learning how to play the game (aka mindgames), i get flamed royally.
[off-topic] I am really starting to think no one knows what the **** they are talking about. They just want to complain.
fr0st2k
Smash Journeyman
ok...true?
What youre failing to realize the the amount of information available on the web. Video upon video. If i see a awesome combo in a video, im going to learn it and use it. And thus, a competitive technique appears within my pals game, and they overcome, and a new strategy emerges. We don't need to go to a tournament to learn how to beat it.
We are not cycling through the same possibilities. Not if we adpat to different playstyles. If you have even just 2 competant people ... they could play each other over and over again and get better and better. This is because they adapt their playstyle, JUST like you say competitive players do at tournaments.
Once again, im not debating you that playing at a tourney wont give you more players, and hence more things to adapt to in a more condensed atmosphere and time. But saying that even as little as 2 players cant advance is completely ludicrous. Especially if they are watching the tournament scene on a consistent basis..
what are you sorry for? And what lvl of play did i claim to reach?
and finally .. you forgot to put the quote marker up with my name there.. oh wait.. (im just saying, i said this same exact thing)
slikvik
Smash Master
i went to otakon too and made it to the finals...with another competitive player. In friendlies, I remember ****** everyone who I didn't already know from tournaments. You may beat some random competitive player that has never placed well ever, but I guarantee that you will not take out a veteran.
frost...well known does not equal random ganon/falcon who wavedashes
Once again though, at that point can you call yourself a casual Smasher? While you may not go to tourneys, by following the metagame, watching combo videos, and fervently trying to improve your game, you are a competitive player. All arguments made regarding the predictability of casual Smashers are made about casual Smashers. The people in the scenario you've described are not casual Smashers. I still hold that they will not have advanced their game sufficiently to do well at any proper tournament should they ever attend.