S4C
Smash Rookie
Thanks! I was gonna post this same problem. I want to say I have an issues with rolling, but its also from me shielding so much.
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Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion
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Lavani
Indigo Destiny
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It varies by character, as well as the type of throw.
I assume you're asking regarding Pac-Man specifically, so taken from sixriver:
- Forward: 8F
- Back: 11F
- Up: 12F
- Down: 7F
- Dash: 5F
- Discard (grounded neutral-Z): 6F
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
xxdavis97
Smash Rookie
Nah if they can't do anything about the projectiles it just means they are bad, that said if you play someone who is good your strategy won't work. Bombs are great to put your opponent into hit stun and you can get a good dash attack in as links dash attack is ridiculous in smash 4
Ulevo
Smash Master
If your play style is getting countered 'over time' then it just means you are playing in one dimension, or you are failing to acknowledge the options at your disposal. You are forming patterns. Now, your options will vary from character to character.
Characters with more defensive traits rely on hit confirms in neutral, then committing once they have landed the hit confirm. Then they dial in, get as much confirmed damage as they can via combos and reliable set ups. Then they reset back to a neutral position, albeit with more stage control. Characters with more offensive traits use these traits to pressure their opponent in to committing to something, then following up to confirmed combos or set ups. Defensive characters and offensive characters ultimately have the same destination, it is just that one is more proactive and can invoke the circumstance they want, while the other is reactive and has to wait for opportunity.
In either case, you can be in situations where you are forming patterns. If you are playing offensively, you can be trying to pressure your opponent in the same predictable fashion, ultimately leading to a counter strategy that shuts you out. What makes offensive pressure effective is it is typically on characters with a lot of options and mobility, making the opponent have to guess under split second circumstances. If you default to one type of pressure, this will obviously lose its effectiveness. If you play defensively and try to react, you might not be realizing all of your defensive options. If you constantly defend in the same manner, and react in the same manner, your opponent will have ways to open holes in your strategy.
What it really sounds like you are doing is you get a lead, such as a hit confirm, go for a combo, and then try to go for more than you actually can. Or maybe you are edge guarding, and you go too deep, or use an option that is not suited for that situation. All of this comes down to knowing your character and the opponents character properly. This is especially true against certain characters. Characters like Luigi will keep you honest, since they have a frame 3 neutral air that will break false combos, thus forcing you to adapt and make sure you only use what viably works.
I do not see this as a play style problem so much as character unfamiliarity and match up discrepancy issue, but I do not know what characters you are struggling on.
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Storm Erion
Smash Cadet
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Ness recently had his PSI Magnet (Down B) buffed to where the end lag was reduced, so he could (and did) absorb my bombs easily which made soft thrown and Z-dropped bombs a non-option.
Dash attack is also very laggy and I wouldn't throw that out too often unless I got a read or something. I did what I had to do in the moment, not what I would do against every character.
Nate22Hill
Smash Apprentice
what do you study with frames, and how are they applied when you know them????
Smashladder.com
Trunks159
Smash Journeyman
You're probably holding the shield button too long. Try just tapping it instead of just sitting there.
Try to never hold your shield.
Go for powershields or shield + spot dodge + punish, but avoid ever just holding the shield for attacks that only might happen.. I find myself trying to roll when I'm stuck holding my shield and no attack is incoming to deal with -- popping it up quickly with the plan being to immediately drop it and resume the offensive helps me not just fall into the "Well I'm shielding I better roll so I'm not a sitting duck" mindset.
Go for powershields or shield + spot dodge + punish, but avoid ever just holding the shield for attacks that only might happen.. I find myself trying to roll when I'm stuck holding my shield and no attack is incoming to deal with -- popping it up quickly with the plan being to immediately drop it and resume the offensive helps me not just fall into the "Well I'm shielding I better roll so I'm not a sitting duck" mindset.
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What I found useful was to just dash around and shielding, and dropping it immediately. Just do that for a bit on training mode or whatever.
It'll also help you with perfect shielding sooner or later, which is a super important technique to understand.
It's also rewarding for you to realize you can just shield against people on For Glory while they're spamming dash attacks, and respond with a grab immediately. Doing that often will give you a bigger appreciation for just briefly shielding and reacting.
Just be careful to not get too comfy in a shield. Just like roll spamming is bad, sitting in a shield all day is also bad and makes you really vulnerable to grabs. You need to know when to use each. Learning the timings will be something you gain with practice, but first you need to break the rolling habit.
It'll also help you with perfect shielding sooner or later, which is a super important technique to understand.
It's also rewarding for you to realize you can just shield against people on For Glory while they're spamming dash attacks, and respond with a grab immediately. Doing that often will give you a bigger appreciation for just briefly shielding and reacting.
Just be careful to not get too comfy in a shield. Just like roll spamming is bad, sitting in a shield all day is also bad and makes you really vulnerable to grabs. You need to know when to use each. Learning the timings will be something you gain with practice, but first you need to break the rolling habit.
OtterCups
Local Leader For the scene of Staunton, Virginia
So glad I found this thread, thanks for the info guys!
S4C
Smash Rookie
I find this thread one of the most helpful ones! I really appreciate it!
So I recently joined Smash Ladder. However, I am absolute trash (my record is 1-22). I look up how to become a better player and I have heard that focusing on your opponent helps a ton. I believe this is my problem because I know just about everything about my character and how to use them.
With that said I often find myself not paying attention to my opponent as much as I should be in matches. Is there anyway I can force myself to do this?? I main Sheik who is one of the harder characters to use, could switching to a simpler character allow me to do this more easily? I often find myself worrying about Sheik's various techs and forgetting about my opponent.
Shall I switch my main? Or are there any other ways to pay better attention to my opponent?
With that said I often find myself not paying attention to my opponent as much as I should be in matches. Is there anyway I can force myself to do this?? I main Sheik who is one of the harder characters to use, could switching to a simpler character allow me to do this more easily? I often find myself worrying about Sheik's various techs and forgetting about my opponent.
Shall I switch my main? Or are there any other ways to pay better attention to my opponent?
Nexin
Smash Journeyman
The reason you can't focus on your character exclusively is because it causes you to be unable to pick up your opponents bad habits and weaknesses as well as it making it more likely to be hit by an attack that, for lack of a better term, "came out of nowhere". Often the best way to learn how to watch your opponent more than yourself is to literally force yourself to do so, and eventually it will become second nature.
Play some friendlies dedicated solely to watching your opponent and trying to figure out what they are going to do. Don't be as concerned about winning while you are learning how to do that, because if try to win those, then you will fall back into your old habits if you begin to lose.
I don't think your main is what is causing the issue. I play Palutena who is also a difficult character to play at a high level, but I'm still able to focus more on my opponent than on myself. You just need to make it a habit first.
Play some friendlies dedicated solely to watching your opponent and trying to figure out what they are going to do. Don't be as concerned about winning while you are learning how to do that, because if try to win those, then you will fall back into your old habits if you begin to lose.
I don't think your main is what is causing the issue. I play Palutena who is also a difficult character to play at a high level, but I'm still able to focus more on my opponent than on myself. You just need to make it a habit first.
Playing a lot and making sure you focus on your opponent really does help, don't focus on winning. Only, Learning. If you are still worrying about Sheik's techs though, I think you would greatly benefit from some training room time. Seriously, it's a great tool. Just practice tech until it's second nature, you should never worry about tech in a match. From there I'd recommend practicing said tech on low level CPUs, then FG, the Anther's.
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NotAnAdmin
Smash Journeyman
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Best way is to just play a bunch of games while trying your hardest to keep your eyes off your character except when necessary. (recovering from hitstun, watching your position on stage, etc.) Eventually it becomes second nature.
Practice tech until it becomes really easy. It's all being letting your muscle memory take over while you watch the opponent to see what they will do. Once it's burned into your hands good enough you won't have to worry.
Practice tech until it becomes really easy. It's all being letting your muscle memory take over while you watch the opponent to see what they will do. Once it's burned into your hands good enough you won't have to worry.
I'd recommend C stick for tilts over smash attacks. From release until about a month ago my C stick was on smash, it only took me like a week to get fully used to. Also, if you tilt the stick top left, top right, bottom left and bottom right, it'll use a jab instead of tilt (or neutral air).
NotAnAdmin
Smash Journeyman
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It's sort of up to your preference and practicing your technical skill.
If your character relies on tilts, you may need to make the switch.
The sensitivity on the c-stick when changed to attack is annoying though.
If your character relies on tilts, you may need to make the switch.
The sensitivity on the c-stick when changed to attack is annoying though.
S4C
Smash Rookie
Thanks Coach. This is helping me, its tough at first but Im starting to see more options now rather than roll or shield.
Dark Dire Wolf
Smash Journeyman
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Any tips on dealing with Luigi and Roy's grab combos? I can't seem to get out of them.
S4C
Smash Rookie
Honestly, dont give them the opportunity to get grabbed. For example, are you getting grabbed during the lag of your attacks or while shielding? Im asking because im slowly learning methods to avoid getting grabbed.
Ghidorah14
Smash Ace
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How do I avoid/stop grab happy players? This is my primary reason for despising certain characters like captain falcon, luigi, and mario, and to an extent, roy.
It's all they ever ****ing do. It's the only thing they know how to do.
-Dash, grab
-Shield, grab
-Spot dodge, grab
-Roll, grab
Etc.
I've been playing on anther's ladder lately, and it seems like FG was where all the spammers hang on and anther's is where all the grab whores go. Played a luigi and a falcon who did this, and it's how they got a vast majority of their damage on me. No matter how hard I try to avoid it, they get me every time. Oh, but when I go for grab, suddenly it's the easiest thing in the world to avoid and has like 30+ frames of lag.
Something you need to know about me is that I'm on the 3DS, and my shield button is mapped to L. I've been playing like this since launch. Thing is, pressing L and down on the pad is really awkward and uncomfortable for me, to the point that I cant spotdodge, almost at all. I'd need like 3 secs to prepare to do it. My hands just arent wired to work that way.
So what do I do? I'm sick of these flowchart players getting away with goddamn murder.
It's all they ever ****ing do. It's the only thing they know how to do.
-Dash, grab
-Shield, grab
-Spot dodge, grab
-Roll, grab
Etc.
I've been playing on anther's ladder lately, and it seems like FG was where all the spammers hang on and anther's is where all the grab whores go. Played a luigi and a falcon who did this, and it's how they got a vast majority of their damage on me. No matter how hard I try to avoid it, they get me every time. Oh, but when I go for grab, suddenly it's the easiest thing in the world to avoid and has like 30+ frames of lag.
Something you need to know about me is that I'm on the 3DS, and my shield button is mapped to L. I've been playing like this since launch. Thing is, pressing L and down on the pad is really awkward and uncomfortable for me, to the point that I cant spotdodge, almost at all. I'd need like 3 secs to prepare to do it. My hands just arent wired to work that way.
So what do I do? I'm sick of these flowchart players getting away with goddamn murder.
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Know the range of those dash grabs. Play/space around that maximum range.
Marios tend to like to roll grab (as do other characters), know the range of their forward roll.
D3 isn't really in a good spot to avoid these things as his tools are slow, so lag on wifi would make this even worse.
But if you aren't comfortable with using an important defensive mechanic, you need to learn.
Marios tend to like to roll grab (as do other characters), know the range of their forward roll.
D3 isn't really in a good spot to avoid these things as his tools are slow, so lag on wifi would make this even worse.
But if you aren't comfortable with using an important defensive mechanic, you need to learn.
xxdavis97
Smash Rookie
That's true, My advice is limited as I am mostly a melee player and do not main link so that was all I had for ya hope you get some answers from someone more knowledgable than I
Speed Boost
Smash Apprentice
It really depends on the MU and your characters tools, but an attack will beat a grab every time. Jab, (Pivot)FTilt, DTilt, SH Retreating Aerial.
That said, if you just throw out attacks and miss you are gonna get grabbed or punished. Typically a more defensive option like a retreating aerial or a pivot FTilt will help prevent this if you miss. Your also gonna have to learn what the good setups and baits are for your character, so you can start to dictate the match more.
You might also want to consider changing your control scheme. I still play a lot on the 3ds and I use the following controls:
L=Jump, R=Attack, X=Special, Y=Block, B=Grab
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NotAnAdmin
Smash Journeyman
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It looks like you need to look at some tapes and find out when you are leaving yourself open and how to reduce these windows.
Dedede is big and his moves aren't the fastest but he has so great zoning/spacing moves.
Also do what was stated above and learn the MU, grabs are strong but constantly moving and baiting along with punishing baited grabs will shut them down.
Dedede is big and his moves aren't the fastest but he has so great zoning/spacing moves.
Also do what was stated above and learn the MU, grabs are strong but constantly moving and baiting along with punishing baited grabs will shut them down.
BradLeeTee
Smash Cadet
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Sry for the wall of text, I had to be really specific when I was explaining this. So anyways most of u probably already know this but for those who dont, ever since the patch came out where pressing the A and B button at the same time causes a Smash Atk to come out we have been able to perfect pivot by holding the attack button and special button at the same time by flicking both the control stick and C stick in opposite directions. So I came up with a crazy idea of constantly holding down both buttons while I'm not attacking to always have access to easy perfect pivots which could really benefit my playstyle and open up more approach options since Fox's perfect pivot is one of the best out there. My control setup on my pro controller right now has special and attack on ZL and ZR (the buttons I have held down), X is jump, Y is grab and A is for shielding. To input my aerials I let go of ZR and press it again while having ZL held down and same inputs for smash atks on the ground, as for the normal attacks or special attacks I've gotta let go of both buttons, press ZL/ZR then start holding them down before the animation ends and to grab I'll even have to let go of ZR and press Y to grab since pressing Y with ZR and ZL held down pulls out the shield. This just make's the game practically 10x harder since timing and thinking about which buttons I have to be holding and let go of mid match is a massive bich. Aside from that there is another downside, if I try to run and press the shield button while both buttons are held down Fox will do a running grab instead of a running shield which is a pretty big deal since perfect pivoting is really useful to punish moves with shield pushback and if I press both buttons while shield is out a grab will come out... So finally the question is shud I spend the time practicing and perfecting this playstyle or shud I just drop the idea due to it being almost or just plain impossible to bring into a competitive 1 on 1 match
Edit: forgot to say I can't perfect pivot the original way for the life of me so that's out of the question
Edit: forgot to say I can't perfect pivot the original way for the life of me so that's out of the question
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DukeofShorts
Smash Journeyman
Anyone have any advice on how to cut the bad habit of rolling towards the opponent? I've been watching my replays lately and it seems like most of my deaths were from rolling toward someone and they down smash or f-smash me. I seriously don't know why I can't stop. Help?
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
I really don't think anyone has the authority to tell you that a control scheme is objectively bad.
Historically speaking, 95% of the top players use GC controllers with default configuration or tap jump set to off. In Smash 4, I don't see much of a reason to have tap jump on, because its biggest advantage in previous iterations was easier/faster meteor cancelling. Most of the advanced techs, both in general and that might be discovered for your character of choice, will be described to you through the lens of a GC controller.
That said, if you find something you're comfortable with and that lets you get the results you want, then don't let somebody tell you that you can't do it.
Historically speaking, 95% of the top players use GC controllers with default configuration or tap jump set to off. In Smash 4, I don't see much of a reason to have tap jump on, because its biggest advantage in previous iterations was easier/faster meteor cancelling. Most of the advanced techs, both in general and that might be discovered for your character of choice, will be described to you through the lens of a GC controller.
That said, if you find something you're comfortable with and that lets you get the results you want, then don't let somebody tell you that you can't do it.
CrazyPerson
Smash Journeyman
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Looking for tournaments to watch/study on youtube. Any good ones post most recent patch?
I hope this is the right place for a question like that.
I hope this is the right place for a question like that.
ぱみゅ
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This is a good start, imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9JB81jxLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9JB81jxLw
KittyKyat
Smash Journeyman
I've been trying to practice to get back into playing Smash competitively, but I find FG and Smashladder to be pretty depressing for me to lay on, I really hate going on a losing streak after about an hour in the lab trying to improve. What should I do when I want to practice without a local scene, but don't want to be frustrated?
Speed Boost
Smash Apprentice
Practice tech and mixups in training mode and against the CPU when you get tired of loosing and then go back to FG or friendlies. Switch it up when things get stale, but keep working on improving your game.
Save replays of your matches against real opponents and watch them to see what patterns you have, especially in loses. Watch pros on YouTube that play your main to see their mixups, etc.
Keep grinding and you will make slow and steady progress.
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Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
practice movement options specifically, as this will make you instantly better with whoever. here is the link
cot(θ)
Smash Journeyman
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Before the Mewtwo patch, I had ZR set to attack so I could always hold it down while I had a Metal Blade in hand. This allowed me to use an F-smash while holding an item. It's not as extreme as what you're suggesting, but it's a similar idea, and was definitely doable.
TobiasXK
Smash Ace
best thing about pivoting is that it's a quick non-committal movement option that keeps all of your options open; you can pivot into anything.
if you're making just pivoting easier while making every other input more difficult, i don't think it makes sense from an economy of execution standpoint. are empty pivots that much more useful than everything else that you're complicating? if you're a Fox main like your account seems to strongly indicate, what about pivot jab, pivot u-tilt, pivot u-smash, pivot d-smash—can you do any of those things as quickly and consistently as your empty pivots? if not, you're not even just sacrificing inputs in general but you're also dramatically reducing the usefulness of the pivots that you're so desperate to implement.
imo you should just learn to pivot the classic way. it'll come with time and practice; it's literally just a fine muscle control thing, which is something that can be trivially developed just through repetition. and you'll learn alot of use cases along the way—since you'll be playing "normally" without so much brainpower relegated to complex controls—and capable of analyzing matches for the specific moments where you really want to pivot for a good reason.
cos keep in mind that everyone's techskill peaks way higher than their constant/average level (and way higher than they'd expect). so if you only need to pivot a handful of times per stock, it's very attainable to do that despite the difficult execution. now, pivoting hundreds of times per match will be a lot harder, but it'll still come with training.
but as is, you're describing a system in which a whole bunch of things that you'll need to do more often than pivoting are voluntarily much more difficult. it doesn't really make sense.
if you're making just pivoting easier while making every other input more difficult, i don't think it makes sense from an economy of execution standpoint. are empty pivots that much more useful than everything else that you're complicating? if you're a Fox main like your account seems to strongly indicate, what about pivot jab, pivot u-tilt, pivot u-smash, pivot d-smash—can you do any of those things as quickly and consistently as your empty pivots? if not, you're not even just sacrificing inputs in general but you're also dramatically reducing the usefulness of the pivots that you're so desperate to implement.
imo you should just learn to pivot the classic way. it'll come with time and practice; it's literally just a fine muscle control thing, which is something that can be trivially developed just through repetition. and you'll learn alot of use cases along the way—since you'll be playing "normally" without so much brainpower relegated to complex controls—and capable of analyzing matches for the specific moments where you really want to pivot for a good reason.
cos keep in mind that everyone's techskill peaks way higher than their constant/average level (and way higher than they'd expect). so if you only need to pivot a handful of times per stock, it's very attainable to do that despite the difficult execution. now, pivoting hundreds of times per match will be a lot harder, but it'll still come with training.
but as is, you're describing a system in which a whole bunch of things that you'll need to do more often than pivoting are voluntarily much more difficult. it doesn't really make sense.
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