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I haven't improved at all since 3DS launch. What am I doing wrong?
The same things still get me every single time, but no matter how many tech I learn, no matter how much i watch the opponent, no matter how many replays I save, and no matter how many hours I play, I still never seem to win. People can read me like books, but I watch myself for bad habits and, for example, never roll or do the same tech twice. I can't read them at all, even if I've seen their playstyle hundreds of times before. People can style on me as the lowest tier characters without - they admit - even trying, whereas I put my all in only to lose and get teabagged for it. And all of this on the 3DS, the "easiest" option. Wii U players have actually made me cry.
I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong and the gap just keeps on growing. Am I an awful player if I can't improve in a matter of years? Others can become experts in a day, and brand new players crush me. I just want to be talented at something, and Smash is all I've got due to disability. I try harder than anyone but I still just lose lose lose.
Watching replys may help you learning your mistakes. If you don't learn the basic strategy and tips you might never get good. Keep in mind that not all people are created equal, that's why some people need more practice compare to others.
So here are my tips:
Find a buddy, playing someone who has the same skills as you can help benefiting your skill.
Watch videos, I highly recommend you to watch some Youtube videos, channels like Beefy Smash Doods, My Smash Corner etc.
This you may disagree, stop devoting yourself into the 3DS version. 3DS version is also my most played Smash Bros. But I really never did want to get good on this version. 3DS controller has way too many disadvantage compare to other controllers competitively. So just play the 3DS version for fun, it's a video game afterall.
I have this problem too (autopilot movement), although I've been working on it. It helps me to visualise a zone around the opponent where they are immediately threatening, where you rarely want to be while they are uncommited. Helps with spacing and baiting too.
Also, seems obvious but recognise situations where you essentially should retreat and attempt to reset almost every time instead of going in, eg. you're falling directly towards a grounded Mario. This comes under matchup knowledge though I suppose.
I know we used to have a thread for finding opponents. Maybe I don't see it. Can I get the link to the official thread? I'm looking for some wifi sparring partners. With a decent connection hopefully.
Two questions: How do I fight a Falcon that holds jab constantly and waits around by standing still, idling until you approach him?
Secondly, how do I fight an ultra-mega-super-legendary-hyper aggressive Mario who spot dodges your approaches, goes for jablocks and, most importantly, constantly backwards short hops and does bair, which basically autocancels and also him to put wish you regardless of what you do? It's really infuriating. My character's are Falco, Ryu, Marth, and occasionally Falcon. And Little Mac.
Two questions: How do I fight a Falcon that holds jab constantly and waits around by standing still, idling until you approach him?
Secondly, how do I fight an ultra-mega-super-legendary-hyper aggressive Mario who spot dodges your approaches, goes for jablocks and, most importantly, constantly backwards short hops and does bair, which basically autocancels and also him to put wish you regardless of what you do? It's really infuriating. My character's are Falco, Ryu, Marth, and occasionally Falcon. And Little Mac.
Walk up to him. Then, hit his hand with a disjoint or outrange him entirely (Marth especially), jump and land with an aerial on top or behind him, run in and shield, SH airdodge or roll through him. Make sure you predict what he's going to do to react to the option you choose. You could also force him to clank with a projectile. Ryu's multihit Hadouken should beat it straight up.
"How to fight someone who waits for you to come to them" is something one could write a book on. Simply (but very basically) put, bait out a commitment and punish them for it. What counts as a commitment completely depends on the matchup (including what your character is), but for Falcon common commitments include dash attack/grab, rolls, and Fsmash.
If they're spotdodging most of your approaches, a) you're being too predictable when you approach and b) there are ways to beat it. For example, run through and pivot grab, run up and shield next to them and grab the spotdodge endlag on reaction, and even (if you read it super hard) charge a smash.
You can tech lock setups unless they involve a footstool or pratt fall. But Marios don't usually get them off of those. Make sure you mix up tech options though or you'll get punished.
Yeah, SH Bair is safe and annoying, for tall characters anyway. Mario's short hop is quite high though so you could low-profile Bair with a move which lowers your hurtbox, or crouch/crawl. Marth can simply hit his extended legs. Falcon should be able to dash grab before he lands. It's not safe if you perfect shield it, so if he's being particularly predictable with it run in, Pshield it and then do whatever. Projectiles annoy jump-happy opponents too.
Until high %s, Mario wants a grab at the end of the day, so bear that in mind. Don't let him condition you to shield too hard, that's why he's aerialing you all the time, to get a grab. Also watch out for his dash > shield grab, Marios love it. Grab him or simply walk/foxtrot away if you see him dashing towards you, his dash attack is poor and grab is a commitment too. But don't forget about that Usmash.
This is why losses are important, for learning. Take the time to just think about what options you have and how you can utilise them to prevail in different situations.
The timing to punish rolls and spot dodges online is too specific and because of online lag, changes from moment to moment. Further most rollers are sporadic with no pattern. Left? Right? Spot dodge? Attack? Delay? There are too many options. I can stand toe to toe wth decent players but if they begin roll spamming I lose on the spot. What can I do?
For awhile now, I've been trying to up my smash game, but I've recently noticed a gaping flaw in my play. I don't defend well.
I can shield, shield grab, and roll as well as the next pleb, but I don't know when to do it in general, outside of some obvious circumstances (dash attacks for instance). Also, I tend to get punished very easily when getting up from the ledge or from a lying down state.
So basically, I need a comprehensive guide on the defensive game, if there are any (I couldn't find any. Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be for SSB4, the mechanics are similar enough in Brawl and Melee).
In addition, I'd love your guys' input on the matter, for some more personalized advice.
Just in case it's useful, I play in the games I play (mostly just SSB4 with some Melee)
(Put in spoilers to avoid a massive wall of text)
I seem to have an incredibly awful knowledge of when to use basic dodging techniques. I'm decent with my shield, but beyond that, I don't roll well (usually I roll towards my opponent, which means a punish) and I NEVER airdodge or spot-dodge, which is clearly... just awful.
When is it appropriate to shield? Not doing it enough can lead to missing fantastic opportunities to punish. Also, relying on it too much just leads to being grabbed.
But then again, I tend to see pros dash + shielding or otherwise shielding a ton more than I would think they should (but they're pros, so what can I say?)
Also, can anyone explain what's going on in this clip? It seems like there were a lot of times where either player could have shield grabbed, but instead Peach does a jab OOS and then rolls. Was she afraid of getting sidestepped?
When do you even spot-dodge? For instance, if you are shielding and someone comes up to grab you, is the proper response to spot-dodge and then follow up?
Does the spot-dodge have significant ending lag?
Is it possible to punish out of a successful spot-dodge?
Overall though, it does seem like it's quite inferior to shielding as a general defensive option, but with some 100% necessary niche uses.
Rolling seems not quite as useful in general.
Then again, you always hear about how difficult it can be, for an unprepared player, to deal with someone who rolls too much.
So what are some general guidelines on when/how to roll? Is rolling towards your opponent a good idea? (It seems like it could be easily punished) Or should you use it to simultaneously dodge an attack and reset to neutral?
Airdodging is something I barely do at all, which is clearly a gaping flaw in play.
I think it's a holdover from playing Melee as a kid, when airdodging was basically one of the worst things you could do in the air.
Now that it's actually very viable, I don't use it at all, and get hit by way too many attacks when falling.
So when is it appropriate to airdodge? (I'm basically a blank slate here)
I am awful at recovering from combos, being launched, getting down from the air, and getting up from the ground/ledge. This is more about the defensive game and mixups than the basic mechanics.
Firstly, I only have a weak grasp on the DI system in general (I know theoretically how it works, but not well how to use it in practice). I also have the incredibly awful habit of always holding the control stick against the direction I'm being sent (towards the opponent in most cases). While this is decent (though not perfect) for surviving kill attacks, it leads to me being combo'd to an unnecessary extent at lower percents. Also, I never try to SDI, which is clearly just a missed opportunity for improvement.
When it comes to combos, I never seem to DI (or SDI) correctly.
For instance, when someone does a jab combo (like Bayonetta's jab, a series of weak hits leading to a final strong hit), which way do I try to (S)DI?
For instance, do I SDI (repeatedly tap the stick) in the direction that gets me out of the hitbox as soon as possible? If it's not a matter of (S)DI, how do you try to get out of them?
For more general combos of course, you just have to know where to DI to get out of them. But what's a good general guideline? Away from the opponent, so that you get out of reach?
In terms of being launched, if I'm right, it's all about how you (S)DI. To best reduce the amount you're sent flying, I assume that you need to SDI as much as possible away from the KO-line, and then DI in the direction that's best suited to surviving.
If I remember correctly, DI in SSB4 is split into two parts, horizontal vectoring, and vertical trajectory modification.
So my assumption (please correct if wrong) is to hold the stick horizontally towards the stage, and vertically towards the diagonal that best guarantees survival, which is usually up (maybe sometimes down if you will survive and want to recover low).
Next, for getting back to the ground and stopping juggling, what are some general guidelines?
Sometimes it's better to just fall to the side and use the ledge to help you get up, but when you are just falling straight down to the stage, what do you do?
Do you use high priority aerials to try to beat out your opponent's attack? Airdodge to dodge your opponent's attacks?
Is landing on a platform good or not? (It seems to not be good, since you can be sharked from under the platform and you have to deal with landing lag)
As I understand it, get-up-attacks can be shielded and then punished from their lag, and rolling can be predicted and punished.
In competitive play, I often see people do neutral get-ups, but it's never worked for me (I always just get punished more easily than if I just get-up attacked). So I have two questions:
For the in-place get-ups, is there any merit at all to the neutral get-up? Or should you always substitute a get-up attack? When should you get-up in place versus rolling?
Rolling is more complicated. If your opponent is close enough to punish you, clearly you should try to predict their punish and not do that direction.
But say you're knocked far enough away from your opponent that they can't punish you immediately. Is there ever any reason to roll towards your opponent? (It seems like it would just lead to being punished) Or should you just roll away and reset to the neutral game?
As a side question, when should you tech or not? It seems like teching when you get launched far away is good, but teching when you're closer to your opponent just leads to punishes, whereas falling on the ground, you can dodge an attack and the proceed.
Finally, the ledge. Mostly my question here is similar to getting up from the ground: is there any merit to the neutral ledge get-up? Or can you always just substitute a ledge attack?
Other than that, it seems like the various options for getting up from the ledge (get-up in place, get-up attack, roll, jump, drop off ledge -> jump) are just used to mix-up and avoid getting punished by your opponent while getting on stage, with the side effect of jumping being that it places you airborne which has its own benefits/drawbacks.
For awhile now, I've been trying to up my smash game, but I've recently noticed a gaping flaw in my play. I don't defend well.
I can shield, shield grab, and roll as well as the next pleb, but I don't know when to do it in general, outside of some obvious circumstances (dash attacks for instance). Also, I tend to get punished very easily when getting up from the ledge or from a lying down state.
So basically, I need a comprehensive guide on the defensive game, if there are any (I couldn't find any. Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be for SSB4, the mechanics are similar enough in Brawl and Melee).
In addition, I'd love your guys' input on the matter, for some more personalized advice.
Just in case it's useful, I play in the games I play (mostly just SSB4 with some Melee)
(Put in spoilers to avoid a massive wall of text)
I seem to have an incredibly awful knowledge of when to use basic dodging techniques. I'm decent with my shield, but beyond that, I don't roll well (usually I roll towards my opponent, which means a punish) and I NEVER airdodge or spot-dodge, which is clearly... just awful.
When is it appropriate to shield? Not doing it enough can lead to missing fantastic opportunities to punish. Also, relying on it too much just leads to being grabbed.
But then again, I tend to see pros dash + shielding or otherwise shielding a ton more than I would think they should (but they're pros, so what can I say?)
Also, can anyone explain what's going on in this clip? It seems like there were a lot of times where either player could have shield grabbed, but instead Peach does a jab OOS and then rolls. Was she afraid of getting sidestepped?
When do you even spot-dodge? For instance, if you are shielding and someone comes up to grab you, is the proper response to spot-dodge and then follow up?
Does the spot-dodge have significant ending lag?
Is it possible to punish out of a successful spot-dodge?
Overall though, it does seem like it's quite inferior to shielding as a general defensive option, but with some 100% necessary niche uses.
Rolling seems not quite as useful in general.
Then again, you always hear about how difficult it can be, for an unprepared player, to deal with someone who rolls too much.
So what are some general guidelines on when/how to roll? Is rolling towards your opponent a good idea? (It seems like it could be easily punished) Or should you use it to simultaneously dodge an attack and reset to neutral?
Airdodging is something I barely do at all, which is clearly a gaping flaw in play.
I think it's a holdover from playing Melee as a kid, when airdodging was basically one of the worst things you could do in the air.
Now that it's actually very viable, I don't use it at all, and get hit by way too many attacks when falling.
So when is it appropriate to airdodge? (I'm basically a blank slate here)
I am awful at recovering from combos, being launched, getting down from the air, and getting up from the ground/ledge. This is more about the defensive game and mixups than the basic mechanics.
Firstly, I only have a weak grasp on the DI system in general (I know theoretically how it works, but not well how to use it in practice). I also have the incredibly awful habit of always holding the control stick against the direction I'm being sent (towards the opponent in most cases). While this is decent (though not perfect) for surviving kill attacks, it leads to me being combo'd to an unnecessary extent at lower percents. Also, I never try to SDI, which is clearly just a missed opportunity for improvement.
When it comes to combos, I never seem to DI (or SDI) correctly.
For instance, when someone does a jab combo (like Bayonetta's jab, a series of weak hits leading to a final strong hit), which way do I try to (S)DI?
For instance, do I SDI (repeatedly tap the stick) in the direction that gets me out of the hitbox as soon as possible? If it's not a matter of (S)DI, how do you try to get out of them?
For more general combos of course, you just have to know where to DI to get out of them. But what's a good general guideline? Away from the opponent, so that you get out of reach?
In terms of being launched, if I'm right, it's all about how you (S)DI. To best reduce the amount you're sent flying, I assume that you need to SDI as much as possible away from the KO-line, and then DI in the direction that's best suited to surviving.
If I remember correctly, DI in SSB4 is split into two parts, horizontal vectoring, and vertical trajectory modification.
So my assumption (please correct if wrong) is to hold the stick horizontally towards the stage, and vertically towards the diagonal that best guarantees survival, which is usually up (maybe sometimes down if you will survive and want to recover low).
Next, for getting back to the ground and stopping juggling, what are some general guidelines?
Sometimes it's better to just fall to the side and use the ledge to help you get up, but when you are just falling straight down to the stage, what do you do?
Do you use high priority aerials to try to beat out your opponent's attack? Airdodge to dodge your opponent's attacks?
Is landing on a platform good or not? (It seems to not be good, since you can be sharked from under the platform and you have to deal with landing lag)
As I understand it, get-up-attacks can be shielded and then punished from their lag, and rolling can be predicted and punished.
In competitive play, I often see people do neutral get-ups, but it's never worked for me (I always just get punished more easily than if I just get-up attacked). So I have two questions:
For the in-place get-ups, is there any merit at all to the neutral get-up? Or should you always substitute a get-up attack? When should you get-up in place versus rolling?
Rolling is more complicated. If your opponent is close enough to punish you, clearly you should try to predict their punish and not do that direction.
But say you're knocked far enough away from your opponent that they can't punish you immediately. Is there ever any reason to roll towards your opponent? (It seems like it would just lead to being punished) Or should you just roll away and reset to the neutral game?
As a side question, when should you tech or not? It seems like teching when you get launched far away is good, but teching when you're closer to your opponent just leads to punishes, whereas falling on the ground, you can dodge an attack and the proceed.
Finally, the ledge. Mostly my question here is similar to getting up from the ground: is there any merit to the neutral ledge get-up? Or can you always just substitute a ledge attack?
Other than that, it seems like the various options for getting up from the ledge (get-up in place, get-up attack, roll, jump, drop off ledge -> jump) are just used to mix-up and avoid getting punished by your opponent while getting on stage, with the side effect of jumping being that it places you airborne which has its own benefits/drawbacks.
In general, it appears you play using floating tech correct?
Peach is difficult to play defense in general. She's based off of hit and run and being on the offensive.
Vectoring has been removed from Smash 4 for a few patches now. DI is back to the basic vertical trajectories similar to Melee and Brawl.
For shielding, you generally want to walk and cancel your movement with shielding. Dashing also works, better even.
Spot dodging is still a pretty bad option in terms of coverage. Sure, grabs and general attacks miss, but it can be read very easily and result in an semi charged smash attack that ends the stock early.
Shield grabbing in this game sucks, because of the shield push back from heavy attacks. You're better off pivoting your grab or preforming it after a fast attack.
Perfect shielding is vital. You can practice using a Samus lvl 3 CPU if you're having trouble with the new window.
Peach is pretty floaty, so combo escaping is generally easy. You just gotta take each situation and learn from a move by move basis.
In general, it appears you play using floating tech correct?
Peach is difficult to play defense in general. She's based off of hit and run and being on the offensive.
Vectoring has been removed from Smash 4 for a few patches now. DI is back to the basic vertical trajectories similar to Melee and Brawl.
For shielding, you generally want to walk and cancel your movement with shielding. Dashing also works, better even.
Spot dodging is still a pretty bad option in terms of coverage. Sure, grabs and general attacks miss, but it can be read very easily and result in an semi charged smash attack that ends the stock early.
Shield grabbing in this game sucks, because of the shield push back from heavy attacks. You're better off pivoting your grab or preforming it after a fast attack.
Perfect shielding is vital. You can practice using a Samus lvl 3 CPU if you're having trouble with the new window.
Peach is pretty floaty, so combo escaping is generally easy. You just gotta take each situation and learn from a move by move basis.
It's safe to say that I don't play Peach correctly, but that doesn't really matter. I can learn the intricacies of the Peach game from her character boards, but right now I'm just trying to figure out the basics of the immediate-defense game.
Thanks for your clarification on vectoring! Wasn't quite sure what information was up to date (wiki was saying contradictory things).
So spot-dodging is pretty bad overall. I guess I should have framed my question like this: "what do I do if I'm about to be grabbed out of my shield?" Should I try to put out a fast hitbox if they're melee grabbers? What if they have a tether grab?
My guess is that if you can get an active hitbox that hits their character, then that's ideal. If not, spot-dodging is probably (?) the best bet? Since they probably won't be close enough to follow up.
So let me just make sure I get what you're saying about shield grabbing. Say I want to shield grab an FSmash. Usually that won't work, because of the pushback. So instead, I should run (?) through them, and then pivot grab them to punish?
Also, what about airdodging? I'm most likely over-complicating it - I should probably just get used to airdodging when I'm about to get hit by an attack, and then learn the drawbacks from there.
Finally, what about neutral get-ups from the ledge and ground? To me they seem pretty inferior unless your opponent is pretty far away and you just need to get up without too much lag.
It's safe to say that I don't play Peach correctly, but that doesn't really matter. I can learn the intricacies of the Peach game from her character boards, but right now I'm just trying to figure out the basics of the immediate-defense game.
Thanks for your clarification on vectoring! Wasn't quite sure what information was up to date (wiki was saying contradictory things).
So spot-dodging is pretty bad overall. I guess I should have framed my question like this: "what do I do if I'm about to be grabbed out of my shield?" Should I try to put out a fast hitbox if they're melee grabbers? What if they have a tether grab?
My guess is that if you can get an active hitbox that hits their character, then that's ideal. If not, spot-dodging is probably (?) the best bet? Since they probably won't be close enough to follow up.
So let me just make sure I get what you're saying about shield grabbing. Say I want to shield grab an FSmash. Usually that won't work, because of the pushback. So instead, I should run (?) through them, and then pivot grab them to punish?
Also, what about airdodging? I'm most likely over-complicating it - I should probably just get used to airdodging when I'm about to get hit by an attack, and then learn the drawbacks from there.
Finally, what about neutral get-ups from the ledge and ground? To me they seem pretty inferior unless your opponent is pretty far away and you just need to get up without too much lag.
Although ledge get-ups are better now, it's still one of 6-7 different options, and it's hardly that great. It isn't useless though, it does come with long lasting intangibility.
Airdodging is great in this game. Most air dodges are impossible to reply on reaction, but are very easy to read if you spam it. Mix it up, jump out of attacks, try to hand back and reset neutral.
Yes, pivot grabbing and dash grabbing are the much better options now, unless you want to pressure their shield and poke it.
Tether grabs are very situational, but Samus is the only tether you should really worry about, as it can snatch you out of the air. Tethers are best to jump over.
Spot dodging is very situational. It's something best used for mind games rather than actual defense. Perfect shielding is in every way superior, as it has no lag in comparison, and perfect shields suffer no push back. Spot dodges would he best for reading a very specific option like a fast single hit smash attack or a grab of any nature. Some characters also boast better spotdodges than others. For instance, is almost as fast as the shield! I don’t know about Peach's, but it would be a stretch to see her have the greatest defensive tools.
Rolling is the slowest defensive option, but it can help you escape long lasting attacks or and incoming dash if you space it well.
In the end, you have to read their options. If they see you like grabs, start mixing it up to throw them off.
Basically try to not do the same thing in the same situation every single time. That's the essence of baits and mix-ups really.
To do this you need to be a aware of what you've been doing the whole time, as well as how your opponent reacts to certain things.
at least that's what I think anyway
edit: Or another, probably simpler, and probably better way to think about it is this:
it's mainly about taking a specific spot in a pattern you've been doing, taking the action you've been doing there...and swapping it out for something that uses a different part of the triangle!
I found another problem q couple of my friends watched me play and said im too aggresive and reckless anything to fix that my best main is cloud and they are suprised that i dont charge my limit right away but rush in for attacks (i do this with virtually ever character i use) my normal approach is a dash attack or a dash grab and occasionally the nair. I love a good offence and they say my Roy is the best in the school and everyone calls cloud top tier trash should i change my playstyle i main and (my ike is also the best in the school yet again there are only two ikes including me)
I found another problem q couple of my friends watched me play and said im too aggresive and reckless anything to fix that my best main is cloud and they are suprised that i dont charge my limit right away but rush in for attacks (i do this with virtually ever character i use) my normal approach is a dash attack or a dash grab and occasionally the nair. I love a good offence and they say my Roy is the best in the school and everyone calls cloud top tier trash should i change my playstyle i main and (my ike is also the best in the school yet again there are only two ikes including me)
Aggression and a good offense is fine, but as soon as you play anyone with a decent bait and punish game you're going to struggle. You need to focus your offense around your opponent's shield (to avoid Out of Shield options like grabs and Nairs) and defensive options. Lastly, when you find your opponent to hard to break with your usual offense, that's when you charge limit, to draw them out of their defensive shell.
I think you would enjoy watching good Falcon players, they are excellent at avoiding OoS options. Also, your three mains all lend themselves to an aggressive playstyle, Cloud has the most flexibility though.
TL;DR If you can get shield-grabbed or baited into using a laggy attack, then you're doing offense wrong.
Aggression and a good offense is fine, but as soon as you play anyone with a decent bait and punish game you're going to struggle. You need to focus your offense around your opponent's shield (to avoid Out of Shield options like grabs and Nairs) and defensive options. Lastly, when you find your opponent to hard to break with your usual offense, that's when you charge limit, to draw them out of their defensive shell.
I think you would enjoy watching good Falcon players, they are excellent at avoiding OoS options. Also, your three mains all lend themselves to an aggressive playstyle, Cloud has the most flexibility though.
TL;DR If you can get shield-grabbed or baited into using a laggy attack, then you're doing offense wrong.
I often do go into a defensive play with cloud and ike to try to avoid punish but he camps out firing any projectile he has at me of course once i am able to start a punish i go right back to my aggressive playstyle to keep him from getting a good hold of the game it does work sometimes but not enough because i still lose with cloud my most used moves are cross slash climbhazzard (out of shield or edgegaurd/getting him away ftom me while im on the ledge) nair uair and stupidly dair when hetting back to the ground uands tilts dthrow f and d smash (d smash is suprisingly effective)
What is up with teams with two times the same characters ?
Pink fresh and Salem. You could say they trained together so they end up teaming up with the same character.
But kameme and Abadango , Aba secondaries Megaman simply for double MM.
in the games I play (mostly just SSB4 with some Melee)
