Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Goont]

Alright so I've been looking into taking Smash 3DS much more seriously, and have been constantly in training mode, working on preforming combos and techs. However, I want to put this training into use by going against AIs for practice. What's the best level to train with? Or should I just use my amiibo? (I used to go up against level 9s but their AI can be so calculated it's almost making me worse against the actual player. )

 

[Nah]

Alright so I've been looking into taking Smash 3DS much more seriously, and have been constantly in training mode, working on preforming combos and techs. However, I want to put this training into use by going against AIs for practice. What's the best level to train with? Or should I just use my amiibo? (I used to go up against level 9s but their AI can be so calculated it's almost making me worse against the actual player. )

CPUs (including amiibos) are terrible for practice since the mental aspect(s) of the game don't exist when you play against them, nevermind their kind of absurd reaction times/frame perfect inputs.

The best way to practice the stuff you've worked on in training mode on a real opponent is to....well, fight real people.

 

[SkaConut]

So I have a question. I've been trying to reinvent my game from the ground up, so right now I'm working on my neutral game and tootsies.

This is super broad an super general, but the people I've played with just do the same rolling/dash attack patterns, or we'll just camp.

Are there any threads with mixups or different ideas for these situations? I find myself locked into habits and I need some fresh ideas.

 

[nbness]

TLDR: Low-PR ranking player found out he like samus more than marthcina. Wants fo switch mains before EVO (first major)

So EVO sm4sh starts in a few days, wondering if I should switch mains on short notice. Not too sure because its my first major.

Im a low rated player in utah, occasionally take a set here and there but not good in general so probably doesnt matter too much. I do notice inconsistencies in my play across all games however. I play more reaction based games like League, CSGO, COD, and my reactions and prediction/reading is great on those games, but with smash 4 I was noticing I do the right thing (shield, airdodge, tilt, etc) but every time just a little bit late.

I lost my wii u power cord recently so i fired up the good ol gamecube and played me a few days of melee + netplay while my new wii u power cord shipped. After my power cord arrived I noticed my reaction times actually improved and I want to confirm at the weekly before we leave for evo, but I also had some concerns on my character choice.

Ive played marth/lucina/ike almost exclusively since 3ds release and alot of roy/corrin/cloud since theyve been released. I like the swordsman concept (Im guessing because I used to play alot of runescape) but I cant seem to execute it well enough because I got in bad habits (spamming arials on marthcina almost never using jabs or tilts) from cpu and for glory matches and cant seem to get out of them. So I actually tried out a few different characters today (Samus and Ryu stood out most to me) and I feel comfortable and noticed I play alot differently (in a positive way) compared to my disjoint wielding swordsmen fellows.

Since im not too well at smash I dont believe it will affect my ratings (positively) at EVO this year, but if I want to switch mains I might as well do it now, right?

 

[Shinzo9999]

So i just started playing smash for the first time. I've been watching footage and tutorials to have an idea of good/bad habits. And one of the bad habits i heard about is using dodge to move around the stage.

But then i fought a guy who did just that with pikachu and i had NO IDEA how to punish him even though i know what he does shouldnt work.

I'd also like to know how to deal with grabs. They are the main reason i'm taking damage for now.

 

[Count Blumiere]

This has been troubling me for quite some time, now. On For Glory and Tournament Mode, lately, I've been losing to horrible players who lack any sort of skill at all. I always brush it off and think that they're so bad that I get caught off guard, but I just haven't been able to shake it lately...

I assure you, I AM good, or at least decent enough not to lose to such bad players. I need clarification on why this keeps happening, I just can't understand why now...

So I am merely asking for some tips on how to improve my playstyle.

My mains are Ike and Dark Pit, and my Secondary is Bayonetta.

I will also get clips up as soon as possible, as to give you a better idea on my playstyle. Not all of them will be of me losing, however. But most of them will be of me almost losing against spammers and/or overall bad players.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You're losing so much because you keep shielding too much/not enough. You're also edge-guarding too deep/not deep enough, not to mention your playstyle being too offensive/defensive. Also, you might want to use your projectiles more/less.

(You might want to give us some more information to work with, perhaps even a video.)

 

[Ilikebugs]

It's because you don't have the chaos hearts.

 

[Count Blumiere]

You're losing so much because you keep shielding too much/not enough. You're also edge-guarding too deep/not deep enough, not to mention your playstyle being too offensive/defensive. Also, you might want to use your projectiles more/less.

(You might want to give us some more information to work with, perhaps even a video.)

Of course, I should have provided more information. Apologies for not doing so, my friend. I'll edit it and the like to give you more ideas.

 

[Dream Cancel]

So i just started playing smash for the first time. I've been watching footage and tutorials to have an idea of good/bad habits. And one of the bad habits i heard about is using dodge to move around the stage.

But then i fought a guy who did just that with pikachu and i had NO IDEA how to punish him even though i know what he does shouldnt work.

I'd also like to know how to deal with grabs. They are the main reason i'm taking damage for now.

Since no one has replied to you I'll answer.

There are two main ways to punish rolling. Either reading the roll and punishing it hard with a smash or a grab combo, or using safe moves with little ending lag to hit them out of the roll, like a jab, quick F-tilt, or a quick aerial. Generally speaking, until you can predict your opponent's roll habits, you should use a safe option. This way, if you whiff your safe move, you'll have enough time to dodge any sort of punish from your opponent.

For example, if a Mario likes to run up to you, then roll behind you, and then Grab/D-Smash/whatever, then your safest option is throw out a jab. Even if you miss the jab, you'll have enough time to dodge their punish attempt, and you can try again.

Also, concerning rolling across the stage, people can't roll if they are in the air or off-stage. This is my personal favorite way to punish them, because their favorite option is no longer available and they will usually air dodge or double jump pre-emptively to try and escape, which just makes their situation worse. (Because it opens them up to harder punishes)

When dealing with grabs, attacking beats grabs 100% of the time. Shielding loses 100% of the time, and dodging is just a guessing game for you and your opponent. Knowing this, you should:

1) Attack often with safe moves, or if you have a read and want a hard punish, go for a smash.
2) Once you stuff their grab attempt(s), they'll likely approach from the air or try a dash to shield approach. To counter this, you can continue attacking, (which is only one of several options you can use) but you need to space your aerials on their shield or respect the range and speed of their aerials relative to yours. If you don't do either of these things, you're going to get shield-grabbed or your grounded attacks will miss and you'll get hit from the air.

I suggest playing against a friend (or a competitive player if you play a friendly against them) that plays a grappler like DK, Bowser, Ness, Luigi, Mario, etc. and just have them try to grab you in a game while you play normally. This way you can practice your anti-grab game.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[Dream Cancel]

So I have a question. I've been trying to reinvent my game from the ground up, so right now I'm working on my neutral game and tootsies.

I'm assuming you mean footsies lol.

This is super broad an super general, but the people I've played with just do the same rolling/dash attack patterns, or we'll just camp.

Are there any threads with mixups or different ideas for these situations? I find myself locked into habits and I need some fresh ideas.

There are character specific boards if you want to ask about certain scenarios when playing, but asking here is a good start.

Read my previous post about rolling, but dash attacks are pretty simple to counter. Try pivot F-tilts, shield-grabbing, or spacing a falling aerial. Shield-grabbing is the most risky because they can simply dash grab instead and you'll get punished, but it is the simplest counterplay. You could also foxtrot away, then foxtrot back in to punish the lag on their dash attack. (Foxtrotting is dashing in one direction but not running, basically a brief dash)

Camping is annoying and requires a specific mindset to deal with.

If you're in a tournament, you need to get a % lead and time them out. Seriously. It may be lame but it's 100% guaranteed to open them up and force their hand. If you're playing friends or online, you have to get a stock lead instead of a % lead, since the game only counts the # of stocks instead of % to determine who is winning.

Other than that, your character may be ill-suited to fight camping. If your character can't exert good platform pressure or is too slow, then you're going to sturggle to catch campers since they tend to rely on shielding or walls of projectiles to frustrate opponents.

Outside of that, most good projectile walls that characters can put up (Link, Toon Link, Villager, Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, etc.) have holes or weaknesses in their design such as ending lag, poor close range frame data, low damage output, or specific circumstances that they rely on to trap and camp out opponents. Studying them, playing against them for practice (and not to win), knowing your options, and even playing as them will greatly benefit your general and specific (such as item) counterplay against them.

Again, I hope this helps.

 

[re3]

This has been troubling me for quite some time, now. On For Glory and Tournament Mode, lately, I've been losing to horrible players who lack any sort of skill at all. I always brush it off and think that they're so bad that I get caught off guard, but I just haven't been able to shake it lately...

I assure you, I AM good, or at least decent enough not to lose to such bad players. I need clarification on why this keeps happening, I just can't understand why now...

So I am merely asking for some tips on how to improve my playstyle.

My mains are Ike and Dark Pit, and my Secondary is Bayonetta.

I will also get clips up as soon as possible, as to give you a better idea on my playstyle. Not all of them will be of me losing, however. But most of them will be of me almost losing against spammers and/or overall bad players.

Few days late to reply.

To me you just seem really arrogant. "I'm better than everyone on For Glory, I should not be losing to them!" Is what it sounds like you're spewing. You keep losing cause you're under some false facade that you're better than people on For Glory just because you're aware of the competitive scene or maybe did a little studying, or gone to a tournament or two perhaps. Maybe think your hot **** cause you watch a few videos from ZeRo or Jtails. What really defines you as being than your opponent? You don't know the person on the other side of the screen, who is it for you to say that you're better than them?

I'm telling you right now you should drop that attitude if you ever plan on getting better. I can already tell that you losing to spammers is a telltale sign of you not really understanding the game. If you're constantly losing to "bad" players that means you're just worse than them, it's as simple as that.

Every strategy has a weakness. This so-called "spamming" is punishable. If you can't punish "spamming" that means you clearly see there's a pattern and you're not punishing it, maybe because you're frustrated and maybe because you're just not good enough. If you're not punishing it than why does the opposing player have to switch up their playstyle when you clearly can't handle it? If you were able to beat a player by throwing out random smash attacks because they keep running into them, are you telling me you wouldn't keep doing it?

If you post matches, don't post matches of you winning. No one cares about if you beat some ****ter from For Glory. Post matches of your losses so you can very clearly see where your mistakes lie. You learn more from losing than you do winning.

Don't reply to me if you still have that mentality. I'll be kind enough to give you the advice of reading this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/playing-to-learn.176650/

 

[Count Blumiere]

Few days late to reply.

To me you just seem really arrogant. "I'm better than everyone on For Glory, I should not be losing to them!" Is what it sounds like you're spewing. You keep losing cause you're under some false facade that you're better than people on For Glory just because you're aware of the competitive scene or maybe did a little studying, or gone to a tournament or two perhaps. Maybe think your hot **** cause you watch a few videos from ZeRo or Jtails. What really defines you as being than your opponent? You don't know the person on the other side of the screen, who is it for you to say that you're better than them?

I'm telling you right now you should drop that attitude if you ever plan on getting better. I can already tell that you losing to spammers is a telltale sign of you not really understanding the game. If you're constantly losing to "bad" players that means you're just worse than them, it's as simple as that.

Every strategy has a weakness. This so-called "spamming" is punishable. If you can't punish "spamming" that means you clearly see there's a pattern and you're not punishing it, maybe because you're frustrated and maybe because you're just not good enough. If you're not punishing it than why does the opposing player have to switch up their playstyle when you clearly can't handle it? If you were able to beat a player by throwing out random smash attacks because they keep running into them, are you telling me you wouldn't keep doing it?

If you post matches, don't post matches of you winning. No one cares about if you beat some ****ter from For Glory. Post matches of your losses so you can very clearly see where your mistakes lie. You learn more from losing than you do winning.

Don't reply to me if you still have that mentality. I'll be kind enough to give you the advice of reading this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/playing-to-learn.176650/

My apologies if I came off as arrogant, but I know that I'm nowhere near the best on For Glory. I haven't been playing it lately anyways, I've been caught up with Melee. I didn't realize that I came off as such. Didn't mean to piss you off, my friend.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

i wonder if anyone can help me with this:
punishing, or countering, the spamming of evasive or defensive options.

shield, duh, you grab, or cross-up, or poke, or bait, etc etc .
but what ab ppl who spam spot dodge??
what ab ppl who spam roll?

are there explicit counters to these? or are they always just......interrupters??
it seems like often you can't even solidly punish on wait+reaction...

ppl seem to often ignore them and position around them, try to gain positioning advantage...

but it seems lame that s4 like..... it just has these evasive options that are like more untouchable...so much so that people just ignore punishing them, or only use them when they have to....
avoiding using them too much
so as not to **** up the fun of the meta.

constant FG rolling, yeah, you can punish it because all they're doing is running, so you just throw hitboxes and eventually hit them
but it often kind of takes a bit! no??

but what about the opponent who plays a hot and cold style
abusing roll??
rolling a bunch to frustrate the **** out of you
then hitting you surprisingly..
etc

would that be cheap?
it seems cheap to me.
these options seem OP tbh.

can anyone argue? i'd love for them not to be OP.
i'd love to be able to know how to punish my opponent when i notice that they roll a lot.
and not just avoid it as a taboo
that only noobs do
when it's actually a really effective option
dumbly effective

 

[Dream Cancel]

i wonder if anyone can help me with this:
punishing, or countering, the spamming of evasive or defensive options.

shield, duh, you grab, or cross-up, or poke, or bait, etc etc .
but what ab ppl who spam spot dodge??
what ab ppl who spam roll?

are there explicit counters to these? or are they always just......interrupters??
it seems like often you can't even solidly punish on wait+reaction...

ppl seem to often ignore them and position around them, try to gain positioning advantage...

but it seems lame that s4 like..... it just has these evasive options that are like more untouchable...so much so that people just ignore punishing them, or only use them when they have to....
avoiding using them too much
so as not to **** up the fun of the meta.

constant FG rolling, yeah, you can punish it because all they're doing is running, so you just throw hitboxes and eventually hit them
but it often kind of takes a bit! no??

but what about the opponent who plays a hot and cold style
abusing roll??
rolling a bunch to frustrate the **** out of you
then hitting you surprisingly..
etc

would that be cheap?
it seems cheap to me.
these options seem OP tbh.

can anyone argue? i'd love for them not to be OP.
i'd love to be able to know how to punish my opponent when i notice that they roll a lot.
and not just avoid it as a taboo
that only noobs do
when it's actually a really effective option
dumbly effective

Use multiple moves like Jab 1-2-3's to catch spot dodges. Either that or use a move with higher start-up lag to wait out their spot dodge.

Use moves with little end lag to catch rolling. Either that or anticipate their rolls with a well-timed attack.

Players with a hot and cold playstyle are trying to bait you into an aggressive option so they can punish any whiffed moves. It's important to keep a level-head and advance on them with safe moves like Jabs, tilts, or short hop aerials. They're trying to break your zone.

What rollers look for is to punish whiffs. If they roll behind you, they are hoping you attack where they used to be so they can punish you. There are three basic ways to deal with this:

1) Use a safe move with little end lag so you can dodge their punish attempt.
2) Move or jump away from them to reset the situation.
3) Turn around and punish their roll attempt with a safe move like a jab, or something stronger if you're feeling confident.

To be honest though, the best way to deal with people abusing evasive options is to be mobile yourself. No, don't abuse rolling or whatever they use, SHFF (short-hop fast fall) and foxtrotting can keep you safe from their rolling because they won't know where you'll be all the time. They will have trouble rolling behind you and will make mistakes trying to punish you.

So, long story short, defensive options are good, yes. But, nothing in smash 4 is OP and abusable. Everything has a weakness.

 

[firedude953]

I wasn't able to play Smash for just over 2 weeks, and now I'm doing really bad. Before, I was beating a lot of people on Anther's Ladder, and now I'm sometimes losing stocks from CPUs. How can I get my skill back to normal as fast as possible?

 

[Zerp]

Sorry for the simple answer but, I think the quickest way to get back to your old level and/or improve is to practice as much you can with other humans, if you happen to have the opportunity to play with anyone you should take it since that's nearly always the quickest path to improvement.

 

[Daymaster]

My issue when I play is that I am never able to focus. At all. I don't know what it is about Smash, but whenever I am playing I just go on autopilot by default and thus never learn. Any tips on getting and maintaining focus?

 

[Jamurai]

My issue when I play is that I am never able to focus. At all. I don't know what it is about Smash, but whenever I am playing I just go on autopilot by default and thus never learn. Any tips on getting and maintaining focus?

Constantly be consciously thinking, things like: what does my opponent want to do at this stage and how can I cover it? Have we been in this situation before and what did they/I do last time? If it went badly for me, what will I do differently? What habits of theirs have I recognised? What habits of mine are they catching on to? What options haven't I used much/at all which they won't expect?

Playing a lot helps because at some point of experience you won't have to think about controlling your character, your brain is taken 90% by player-player interactions. Concentrating full-on on this is a mental workout, if you autopilot it takes less effort. If you do a grind session on FG or with friends for a few hours, or you enter a tournament and get reasonably far, and you concentrate properly the whole time, you should be somewhat mentally fatigued. Or very fatigued, depending on what character and player matchups you encountered.

 

[PrincessCatherine]

Hello. I am really trying to identify major flaws in my gameplay right now. I am not new to the smash scene, but I've only recently started attending tournaments. I went to one Wednesday Night Fights (SoCal weekly), then Evo as my first "real" tournament where I participated in Project: M, Melee, and Smash 4, and then I've gone to WNF the past two weeks.

I played a bunch of games with a friend, and recorded replays of five of them. I am currently uploading to a Youtube playlist. If anyone is really interested in helping or going in-depth, pm me, and we can use Skype chat or something similar to have more of a conversation on it. Otherwise, I am very grateful for any constructive criticism posted in this thread.

I have my own commentary on each game, and I'd like to post, but only if this gains any attention, otherwise, I won't bother.

Thank you!

Match Playlist: (The video isn't formatted perfectly, but I was lazy and didn't fix it)

Also, I just realized we did 5 stock matches out of laziness (not wanting to go back into lobby every time, as we did it through WiFi)

In addition... (I find I'm adding a lot of footnotes)
- I am most comfortable on Sheik here, but I do not actively practice her
- My friend and I play together a lot, and so I do a lot of questionable decisions and actions out of habit
- My friend is objectively a "worse" player (knows less tech, less about the game and characters, optimal punishes, etc.), and so the way he plays should be seen more as "rinse and repeat" rather than calculated decision making. Obviously what he is doing works against me though, so I need to change my style
- My Peach is horrid

 

[Shaya]

You could, and you may get some incidental advice that would help you, but this tends to not be a video critiquing thread.
However, usually every character board has a video/critique thread you can post videos to and obtain some advice from fellow players of your character.

Usually reviewing your videos yourself can give you insight, you can see an instance where something went wrong and wonder what I should've done or what you were thinking at the time. If it occurs frequently and your response is generally the same, it's something you need to put serious thought into to overcome.
When you do get a successful hit, you' d also question whether you could've gotten more than what you did get, was there a better position, a better attack, what if I waited for the air dodge or baited an attack and punished that instead?

Advice from others can help to supplement that but also give you further perspectives or frames of view necessary to better understand your own play as well.

Always do whatever study you can do yourself. If you have your own specific questions and your own notes on your play that will help whoever does critique you further as well.

 

[mario123007]

Hm…so since you are a Ganondorf main, who are your secondaries?

And if possible, you can just post the videos here and I can do analysis. I won't mind with Skype chat, but Skype can be a bit glitchy and I would rather use Discord, have you ever heard of it?
And since you are a newbie, why not go to the greeting thread and give yourself a shoutout? There will be more people who are willing to help you.
And last but not least, welcome to Smashboards!

 

[PrincessCatherine]

Hm…so since you are a Ganondorf main, who are your secondaries?

And if possible, you can just post the videos here and I can do analysis. I won't mind with Skype chat, but Skype can be a bit glitchy and I would rather use Discord, have you ever heard of it?
And since you are a newbie, why not go to the greeting thread and give yourself a shoutout? There will be more people who are willing to help you.
And last but not least, welcome to Smashboards!

I'm almost done uploading the videos, so I will be posting in a moment. Also, I am not quite sure on Ganon atm. I did not play him in any of the games tonight because I am trying out other characters (for like 5th time). I would say I feel most comfortable on him, but I wanted to start getting comfortable on other characters.

Also, I will take a look at that forum, thank you!

EDIT: And yes, I have Discord. I never use it, so I forget, but I like it better than Skype.

 

[mario123007]

I'm almost done uploading the videos, so I will be posting in a moment. Also, I am not quite sure on Ganon atm. I did not play him in any of the games tonight because I am trying out other characters (for like 5th time). I would say I feel most comfortable on him, but I wanted to start getting comfortable on other characters.

Also, I will take a look at that forum, thank you!

Okay, be sure to post the videos here when you are done.

So which other characters have you tried? Ganondorf is not like the best character but can sure be a pain if you got the fundamentals.

I also saw you post in the Game Play Advice thread( Yes, it's verya useful thread to post if you have problems), and just like what Shaya had told you, every character board has a video/critique thread as well. Be sure sure to post your videos there too.

If you have any problems, feel free to ask. Furthermore, I am fine with Skype chat, but honestly I'm only like a semi-pro, I am not that knowledgeable to analyze your videos, so it would be better if there's more people can help you do some in-depth review.

EDIT: And yes, I have Discord. I never use it, so I forget, but I like it better than Skype.

Yeah, me too. Skype had became pretty slow on my laptop and phone (I eventually delete the app). Discord on the other hand is smooth and rarely lags.

 

[PrincessCatherine]

Okay, be sure to post the videos here when you are done.

So which other characters have you tried? Ganondorf is not like the best character but can sure be a pain if you got the fundamentals.

I also saw you post in the Game Play Advice thread( Yes, it's verya useful thread to post if you have problems), and just like what Shaya had told you, every character board has a video/critique thread as well. Be sure sure to post your videos there too.

If you have any problems, feel free to ask. Furthermore, I am fine with Skype chat, but honestly I'm only like a semi-pro, I am not that knowledgeable to analyze your videos, so it would be better if there's more people can help you do some in-depth review.

Yeah, me too. Skype had became pretty slow on my laptop and phone (I eventually delete the app). Discord on the other hand is smooth and rarely lags.

Okay, playlist is up, I posted at the top.

As you can see, I play Shiek, Peach, and Kirby in the videos. I have recently been practicing on Kirby, felt comfortable, but just recently kind of lost that comfort. I've also played Shiek on and off since I first started on 3DS (around a year and a half ago), but never seriously. Not sure how I feel about playing high tiers (even though I play Fox in Melee), even though I do enjoy her movement and fluidity. And then Peach I don't feel comfortable on, not sure why I played her. I still felt the replay was valuable because it shows the same bad habits.

 

[mario123007]

Okay, playlist is up, I posted at the top.

As you can see, I play Shiek, Peach, and Kirby in the videos. I have recently been practicing on Kirby, felt comfortable, but just recently kind of lost that comfort. I've also played Shiek on and off since I first started on 3DS (around a year and a half ago), but never seriously. Not sure how I feel about playing high tiers (even though I play Fox in Melee), even though I do enjoy her movement and fluidity. And then Peach I don't feel comfortable on, not sure why I played her. I still felt the replay was valuable because it shows the same bad habits.

I see...
Okay I only watch your first video for now.

Edit: Whoa, someone moved our posts?

 

[RudyTutti]

I need help seeing and picking up on my opponents habits. Reading them basically. While I'm playing I always feel like they make no mistakes (which is not true obviously but it's just how I feel lol) and I'm making all of them. Part of the problem is because I auto pilot a lot and I've partially solved it by using other characters and forcing myself to watch my opponent. But even when I'm doing that, I don't feel like I'm gathering the necessary information all the time.

 

[SnackBox]

If anyone has some advice on helping me choose a secondary to use in an upcoming tourney that would be great.
I currently main Fox but I have trouble with sword characters and approaching. The tourney is coming up next week but I can't decide on who to use if I'm having trouble as Fox.
Out of my possible options I feel fairly confident with;
Falcon, Link, Mewtwo, Ness, Marth or Roy but not sure who to really devote some time improving on before said tourney.

Also was this the right place to post this?

 

[Dream Cancel]

If anyone has some advice on helping me choose a secondary to use in an upcoming tourney that would be great.
I currently main Fox but I have trouble with sword characters and approaching. The tourney is coming up next week but I can't decide on who to use if I'm having trouble as Fox.
Out of my possible options I feel fairly confident with;
Falcon, Link, Mewtwo, Ness, Marth or Roy but not sure who to really devote some time improving on before said tourney.

Also was this the right place to post this?

Yes, you're in the right place.

Swordies generally are quick in Smash 4. They rely on their range and have decent power. That said, they all have a common weakness to edgeguarding and against characters that can get in their face or are too far away.

Approaching as Fox can consist of Foxtrotting, Extended Dash Dancing, Perfect Pivot Up-tilts, short hopping, auto-cancellled Bair, or laser camping. You have a lot of options and Fox is really good at baiting an opponent and overwhelming them with his movement. I suggest stepping up your movement game to take advantage of what Fox has to offer.

As for a secondary against swordies, I would choose Falcon, Mewtwo, Ness, or Marth.

Falcon has the same advantages as Fox, just a bit easier to play. Mewtwo has a great defensive game and has great range with Fair and D tilt. Ness can sit outside of sword range and bother them with projectiles and safe aerial pressure. Marth has a simple gameplan that works great against other swordies.

Tbh I would pick Falcon. He plays similarly to Fox and has the speed to break the zone of swordies. He also has good edgegiarding and ledge pressure.

 

[Ze Diglett]

So I actually have a lot of problems that affect my gameplay in this game. I've been trying to overcome them for about the past year and a half and have made virtually no progress, and as such, I've basically accepted that I'm no good at this game and given up on trying to improve. I'm considering this thread as a last resort of sorts, though I don't expect it to accomplish much. So, here's a list of my problems:
1. I'm too salty. This is a bit of an embarrassing one that isn't exactly a problem with my gameplay, but it definitely does affect it when it gets out of hand. Just losing one match can cause me to become super demoralized and auto-pilot hard, or even quit the match if I lose enough or get taunted. If you've seen any Bloodcross salt compilation, that's basically me. It's gotten so bad, I'm actually mentally scared of playing the game with other people. In my case, it basically comes from FG salt montages and the low-level Sm4sh community being less about playing the game and more about humiliating the other player as hard as you possibly can, which makes me super insecure and assume that every stranger I play with is out to get me. I wish it was as simple as "lighten up, it's just a game," but try as I may, I can't get out of the slump once I'm in it. Believe me, I don't at all enjoy being salty. Thankfully, these next two are concrete problems with my gameplay rather than complex mental blocks.
2. I have no fundamentals. From what I understand, fundamentals are basically stuff like reading, baiting, and conditioning your opponent - simple mindgames, if you will. Well, I can't do that. No way. When my opponent has so many options at their disposal, I'm just too scared to commit to a hard read or try and bait out a certain option. The worst part is that because of this, I always end up getting baited and I feel like every option I choose is somehow the wrong one and I get punished for it. This really sucks considering I really like, but he basically can't function without proper fundamentals, so I rarely win with him, which brings me back to problem #1.
3. I misinput all the time and it costs me tons of potential punishes. For instance, if I shield a move with a decent amount of shieldstun, I'll immediately input either left or right to dash out of shield and try to gain the advantage, but instead, I'll just end up rolling behind the opponent due to being stuck in shield and missing the punish. I also have a problem with consistently inputting tilts VS. smash attacks, or even just using the right aerial. It's all basic stuff like that, and that doesn't even go into advanced techs like foxtrotting. I know that I'm rushing too much and end up misinputting because of it, but I feel like if I give my opponent just a few frames, they'll be able to block or dodge or whatever because that's how this game works.
The absolute worst thing about all of these issues is that if I focus on fixing one of them, then the others just get worse. If I focus on slowing down my inputs, then my fundamentals and general punish game get worse, and if I try to focus on fundamentals, then I misinput more and can't respond properly, and so on. I want to become better than the hyper-casual Brawl player that I was years ago. I want to be able to beat FG roll-n-smash Links and Little Macs. But I can't. I just suck.
I guess what I'm basically trying to ask is, (TL;DR)is there a way to improve on each of these problems at once, and if not, what are some good ways to improve on each of them individually? Particularly, the salt one is what I'd like to improve the most, since it'll really help me to obtain a better mindset and just have fun with the game like I used to.
Also sorry for the wall of text

 

[SnackBox]

Excellent thanks you so much for your help that was greatly informative.

 

[mario123007]

Match Playlist: (The video isn't formatted perfectly, but I was lazy and didn't fix it)


Also, I just realized we did 5 stock matches out of laziness (not wanting to go back into lobby every time, as we did it through WiFi)

In addition... (I find I'm adding a lot of footnotes)
- I am most comfortable on Sheik here, but I do not actively practice her
- My friend and I play together a lot, and so I do a lot of questionable decisions and actions out of habit
- My friend is objectively a "worse" player (knows less tech, less about the game and characters, optimal punishes, etc.), and so the way he plays should be seen more as "rinse and repeat" rather than calculated decision making. Obviously what he is doing works against me though, so I need to change my style
- My Peach is horrid

I know I already told you in our Discord chat, but I have say it here again.

First off, 5 stock match is pretty long for Smash4 matches. 2 or 3 stocks are pretty much fine. It's not like a big deal, but I still have to say it here.

This video with give you sort of that knowledge. And I'm pretty sure you had watch this video, cuz this video is not only useful but also hilarious.

This is the reason why I never want to main Shiek, well I already main Rosalina (Despite I didn't main her just "tier wise"). So there's no point me to main Shiek.
It's pretty obvious that you will be comfortable on Sheik, if you know tier list, she's on the top tiers. But you still need to practice since she's not an easy character to use. Her biggest advantage is that she has many combos, impressive speed and approaching ability, safe recoveries etc...

In the video I saw some minor flaws and errors.
- You need to try to utilize your needles more often.
- Remember most of her easy combos.
- Don't try to run of ledge that often.
- Learn the match ups.

I hope you can pick some characters as your true main. It can be hard sometimes and your mains can change because of new characters, and patches. I used to use Mario a lot. Even I still use him and consider as my main. I use Cloud more often than Mario recently. Because he's a character that fits my play style, and I'am also comfortable using him and love to use him.

 

[anas abou]

i have a question, how do knockback angles affect shield knock back ?? for example if a moves sends the foe towards the player will it have shield knockback towards the player ? also do moves that send at a 90 or 270 degrees angle (straight up or straight down) have no shield knockback ?

any response is greatly appreciated.

 

[Cyrus Ember]

So i just started playing smash for the first time. I've been watching footage and tutorials to have an idea of good/bad habits. And one of the bad habits i heard about is using dodge to move around the stage.

But then i fought a guy who did just that with pikachu and i had NO IDEA how to punish him even though i know what he does shouldnt work.

I'd also like to know how to deal with grabs. They are the main reason i'm taking damage for now.

The main reason people go for grabs is if they notice that you stay in shield a lot.

Soooo you can either try to not shield as often or bait the grab, and punish it accordingly. Good luck!

So I actually have a lot of problems that affect my gameplay in this game. I've been trying to overcome them for about the past year and a half and have made virtually no progress, and as such, I've basically accepted that I'm no good at this game and given up on trying to improve. I'm considering this thread as a last resort of sorts, though I don't expect it to accomplish much. So, here's a list of my problems:
1. I'm too salty. This is a bit of an embarrassing one that isn't exactly a problem with my gameplay, but it definitely does affect it when it gets out of hand. Just losing one match can cause me to become super demoralized and auto-pilot hard, or even quit the match if I lose enough or get taunted. If you've seen any Bloodcross salt compilation, that's basically me. It's gotten so bad, I'm actually mentally scared of playing the game with other people. In my case, it basically comes from FG salt montages and the low-level Sm4sh community being less about playing the game and more about humiliating the other player as hard as you possibly can, which makes me super insecure and assume that every stranger I play with is out to get me. I wish it was as simple as "lighten up, it's just a game," but try as I may, I can't get out of the slump once I'm in it. Believe me, I don't at all enjoy being salty. Thankfully, these next two are concrete problems with my gameplay rather than complex mental blocks.
2. I have no fundamentals. From what I understand, fundamentals are basically stuff like reading, baiting, and conditioning your opponent - simple mindgames, if you will. Well, I can't do that. No way. When my opponent has so many options at their disposal, I'm just too scared to commit to a hard read or try and bait out a certain option. The worst part is that because of this, I always end up getting baited and I feel like every option I choose is somehow the wrong one and I get punished for it. This really sucks considering I really like, but he basically can't function without proper fundamentals, so I rarely win with him, which brings me back to problem #1.
3. I misinput all the time and it costs me tons of potential punishes. For instance, if I shield a move with a decent amount of shieldstun, I'll immediately input either left or right to dash out of shield and try to gain the advantage, but instead, I'll just end up rolling behind the opponent due to being stuck in shield and missing the punish. I also have a problem with consistently inputting tilts VS. smash attacks, or even just using the right aerial. It's all basic stuff like that, and that doesn't even go into advanced techs like foxtrotting. I know that I'm rushing too much and end up misinputting because of it, but I feel like if I give my opponent just a few frames, they'll be able to block or dodge or whatever because that's how this game works.
The absolute worst thing about all of these issues is that if I focus on fixing one of them, then the others just get worse. If I focus on slowing down my inputs, then my fundamentals and general punish game get worse, and if I try to focus on fundamentals, then I misinput more and can't respond properly, and so on. I want to become better than the hyper-casual Brawl player that I was years ago. I want to be able to beat FG roll-n-smash Links and Little Macs. But I can't. I just suck.
I guess what I'm basically trying to ask is, (TL;DR)is there a way to improve on each of these problems at once, and if not, what are some good ways to improve on each of them individually? Particularly, the salt one is what I'd like to improve the most, since it'll really help me to obtain a better mindset and just have fun with the game like I used to.
Also sorry for the wall of text

Hey dude, I hope everything is going alright. I recommenced joining a discord server for your specific characters and meeting/playing with the people there. The folks there are pretty nice and are always willing to help out with anything.

P.S. I'm glad there's some else that enjoys G&W and ROB as much as i do!

 

[Jamurai]

So I actually have a lot of problems that affect my gameplay in this game. I've been trying to overcome them for about the past year and a half and have made virtually no progress, and as such, I've basically accepted that I'm no good at this game and given up on trying to improve. I'm considering this thread as a last resort of sorts, though I don't expect it to accomplish much. So, here's a list of my problems:
1. I'm too salty. This is a bit of an embarrassing one that isn't exactly a problem with my gameplay, but it definitely does affect it when it gets out of hand. Just losing one match can cause me to become super demoralized and auto-pilot hard, or even quit the match if I lose enough or get taunted. If you've seen any Bloodcross salt compilation, that's basically me. It's gotten so bad, I'm actually mentally scared of playing the game with other people. In my case, it basically comes from FG salt montages and the low-level Sm4sh community being less about playing the game and more about humiliating the other player as hard as you possibly can, which makes me super insecure and assume that every stranger I play with is out to get me. I wish it was as simple as "lighten up, it's just a game," but try as I may, I can't get out of the slump once I'm in it. Believe me, I don't at all enjoy being salty. Thankfully, these next two are concrete problems with my gameplay rather than complex mental blocks.
2. I have no fundamentals. From what I understand, fundamentals are basically stuff like reading, baiting, and conditioning your opponent - simple mindgames, if you will. Well, I can't do that. No way. When my opponent has so many options at their disposal, I'm just too scared to commit to a hard read or try and bait out a certain option. The worst part is that because of this, I always end up getting baited and I feel like every option I choose is somehow the wrong one and I get punished for it. This really sucks considering I really like, but he basically can't function without proper fundamentals, so I rarely win with him, which brings me back to problem #1.
3. I misinput all the time and it costs me tons of potential punishes. For instance, if I shield a move with a decent amount of shieldstun, I'll immediately input either left or right to dash out of shield and try to gain the advantage, but instead, I'll just end up rolling behind the opponent due to being stuck in shield and missing the punish. I also have a problem with consistently inputting tilts VS. smash attacks, or even just using the right aerial. It's all basic stuff like that, and that doesn't even go into advanced techs like foxtrotting. I know that I'm rushing too much and end up misinputting because of it, but I feel like if I give my opponent just a few frames, they'll be able to block or dodge or whatever because that's how this game works.
The absolute worst thing about all of these issues is that if I focus on fixing one of them, then the others just get worse. If I focus on slowing down my inputs, then my fundamentals and general punish game get worse, and if I try to focus on fundamentals, then I misinput more and can't respond properly, and so on. I want to become better than the hyper-casual Brawl player that I was years ago. I want to be able to beat FG roll-n-smash Links and Little Macs. But I can't. I just suck.
I guess what I'm basically trying to ask is, (TL;DR)is there a way to improve on each of these problems at once, and if not, what are some good ways to improve on each of them individually? Particularly, the salt one is what I'd like to improve the most, since it'll really help me to obtain a better mindset and just have fun with the game like I used to.
Also sorry for the wall of text

Bit late but w/e.

For number 1, just have a think about what is actually bad about losing. The opponent played better than you did overall. So what? You haven't lost any ranking or possession (unless it's a big money match or something). Losing is only a bad thing in your head. It's all in the mind (pride).
In reality, you only gain things from a loss. Knowledge that you have stuff to work on. Information about your weaknesses, and thought-provoking situations about how you can deal with things in-game. Motivation to improve. Grab losses by the lapels and shake everything out of them that you can. While trying to improve, losing is arguably better than winning.

For numbers 2 and 3, sounds like a cop-out but the best thing is basically just play more. Grinding is hard work but it is kinda the best way to get good. For misinputs specifically, write down a good 20-30 min warm-up routine to do in training before each online session, involving things you want to be more consistent at. Mine involves ledge trumping, doing actions out of shield, and even just walking around and trying not to dash by accident.
Also, save replays you think would be useful to look at again and study them yourself. Research matchups and characters. Look at what mid-, high- and top-level players do in certain situations. Think hard about why what they do works. Incorporate simple things into your game slowly, eg. trapping landings, covering ledge options. If you recognise a habit which is getting you in trouble, concentrate hard on toning it down.

 

[Illusions]

I kind of need help with how to avoid using the wrong moves, as in, I want to use a tilt but end up using a smash attack. This happens to me a lot when I need to make a move quickly (I hope this makes sense). I play with the gamepad, by the way.

Another thing is facing the wrong way. Sometimes my character will face the other way on their own (at least I don't think I have turned around intentionally) and usually I don't even notice it before it's too late.

I don't know if these are things that have happened to anyone else and can be helped with... Could be that I'm just too bad at playing, which I am. But if someone has any kind of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Dream Cancel]

I kind of need help with how to avoid using the wrong moves, as in, I want to use a tilt but end up using a smash attack. This happens to me a lot when I need to make a move quickly (I hope this makes sense). I play with the gamepad, by the way.

Another thing is facing the wrong way. Sometimes my character will face the other way on their own (at least I don't think I have turned around intentionally) and usually I don't even notice it before it's too late.

I don't know if these are things that have happened to anyone else and can be helped with... Could be that I'm just too bad at playing, which I am. But if someone has any kind of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

You need to practice. More specifically, be aware of what correct inputs feel like. For example, a common problem with pivot grabs is that people find themselves pivot F-tilting a lot. They think they're doing the right inputs, but they're not. (because a slow pivot grab results in a pivot F-tilt)

With Smashes and tilts, you literally need to Smash your Analog stick. Practice this. If you have sloppy smashes with the Analog, tilts will come out instead. Use this as a queue to try it again. Just make sure to be precise.

-----

As for facing the wrong way, you need to practice this as well. Well, not really practice, but learn and recognize which situations change the orientation of your character. This is important for RAR Bairs and any tech/moves that quickly turn your character around. Also just play around with your character so you can be familiar with how they feel while moving.

Think of it as a being familiar with writing. You can write without looking because you're know how to do it so well to the point where you don't have to think about it. (You might not write perfectly, but that's not the point xD) It's the same with character movement. You want to focus on other things like your opponent, but if you're tripping over yourself then how can you expect to fight your opponent?

-----

I don't think you're bad. You're just not 100% used to the game. Give it some time and don't beat yourself up for mistakes. Iron them out and, when you're comfortable, start to push yourself to learn new things.

As for the game pad... playing with it isn't bad. It's fine but there's only one of them per console which is an issue in tournament play and might be outside of that.

It would be in your best interest to switch to a Gamecube or Pro Controller though. Should you ever decide to go to a tournament, you may be able to use the game pad if it's a small one. But it's better to be comfortable on a controller that will never be an issue in the future. To be honest though, you can use anything up until the largest of tournaments, which most of us will never really get to. So it's up to you.

Hope this helps!

 

[AAA Battery]

I need help with making a tier list based on character difficulty. I'm trying to categorize characters based on techniques, learning curve, neutral game, frame data, combo potential, etc. I'm just one person and while I have strong knowledge on fundamentals, I feel it would be unwise to work on this alone. So any input from others to make this would be appreciated.

 

[Dream Cancel]

I need help with making a tier list based on character difficulty. I'm trying to categorize characters based on techniques, learning curve, neutral game, frame data, combo potential, etc. I'm just one person and while I have strong knowledge on fundamentals, I feel it would be unwise to work on this alone. So any input from others to make this would be appreciated.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion:

I agree with Beginner.
Fox has a weird gap between the Novice players and the ones that know what they're doing.
Link is borderline for me, similar to Fox.
Samus may be easier, might not be.
Toon Link is pretty straightforward as well. Just learn glide tossing and you're good.
Charizard doesn't seem all that difficult to me, nothing that would separate him from the characters in Novice.
Pikachu is fairly advanced, not intermediate.
Dr. Mario is not that difficult, just learn a few basic techs (RAR Bair, Bair OoS, Up B OoS) and learn his combos and you're fine.
Falco is in the same boat as Doc.
Meta Knight is easy to pick up, but hard to be proficient with. He's advanced imo. (except against floaties lol)
Lucas is borderline advanced imo but intermediate is reasonable.
Rosalina is very intricate. Expert all the way, has the "player skill gap" effect as well. Seems easy but Luma management is a huge deal. - Expert all the way.
Idk what your reasoning is for Ganon, novice imo.
DK is not that tough, intermediate or novice.
You can argue for Greninja being Expert. Very technical and doesn't have any easy win strategies.
Bayo is debatable too, but advanced is reasonable.
Mewtwo is really not that hard. He has very safe and easy to use options. Intermediate or easier.
Palutena and Ike, advanced? They're literally all fundamentals. Intermediate or easier.
I agree with all of expert except Robin and Olimar. Having a lot to micromanage and memorize is hard yes, but once you learn situational awareness and properties of moves they are not particularly demanding. Advanced but not Expert.
And Jiggs is fairly easy to play but fairly hard to stay safe and evasive. Intermediate. Not sure about Miis.

The main thing with lists in general is how things compare relative to other things. For example, ZSS and Bayo seem relatively the same difficulty, but ZSS and Ganondorf do not. <--- My thought process in a nutshell.

Of course, you should really ask specific character mains about how hard a character is. Like I spent a lot of time with Robin, Fox, Rosalina, Lucina, and a few others and those are the characters I can give the most details about.

Overall your list is reasonably good.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I need help with making a tier list based on character difficulty. I'm trying to categorize characters based on techniques, learning curve, neutral game, frame data, combo potential, etc. I'm just one person and while I have strong knowledge on fundamentals, I feel it would be unwise to work on this alone. So any input from others to make this would be appreciated.

It might just be my personal experience, but I have a way harder time playing G&W than I do playing R.O.B. Not to mention G&W's neutral is just terrible, which you said was one of your main factors in making this list. I'd bump him up to Intermediate, maybe even Advanced if I'm feeling it. But it's your call.
I can't really speak for the other characters from experience, so that's all I'll say.