Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[Gerald_]

alright so ive been playing smash 4 ever since it came out and i would say that im a decent player. i look at everyone else and i think to myself how do they improve so quickly in such a short amount of time? we have this local player that is really good with sonic. just a week ago he barely picked up mewtwo and is like already way better with him in just a week... whenever i try to improve i never see improvement even if i stick with it for a long time and im always getting passed by everyone and they just have no problems improving. so my question is how do you improve at a greater rate because i am completely clueless it would take me 5 years to get better to werwe some other person it only takes a week?


Update: also what are some tools you use to speed up the improvement.
Thanks in advamce

 

[alexthepony]

alright so ive been playing smash 4 ever since it came out and i would say that im a decent player. i look at everyone else and i think to myself how do they improve so quickly in such a short amount of time? we have this local player that is really good with sonic. just a week ago he barely picked up mewtwo and is like already way better with him in just a week... whenever i try to improve i never see improvement even if i stick with it for a long time and im always getting passed by everyone and they just have no problems improving. so my question is how do you improve at a greater rate because i am completely clueless it would take me 5 years to get better to werwe some other person it only takes a week?


Update: also what are some tools you use to speed up the improvement.
Thanks in advamce

if its going to take 5 years let it. It took zero 10 years to get this far and dabuz over 6 years. Being good at smash bros means how much time you have to put in it to get better. being bad just means longer.

 

[Gerald_]

if its going to take 5 years let it. It took zero 10 years to get this far and dabuz over 6 years. Being good at smash bros means how much time you have to put in it to get better. being bad just means longer.

then how do i deal with being bad because i hate being bad at something?

 

[Megamang]

Work hard to improve, and don't think of yourself as 'bad' but 'improving' at any point.

Its part of maturing to realize you can be below average at something though. It isn't the end of the world.

for what its worth, the average skill level of a smash 4 player is higher than most smash games, historically, due to online 1v1 being available.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is no shortcut to success.
Also, losing doesn't always mean you're bad.
Keep on playing, keep on learning.
Even top players at this point are still learning the game (Pound was won by a character nobody was prepared for).

 

[C0rvus]

Mentality is instrumental to success imo. Your own mind can get in the way of using situations to improve. There's a lot of good reading on the topic, just look it up. But I will say that the biggest thing you can do is to remind yourself of the two goals you should have while playing: to learn, and to have fun. That simple. Anything worth achieving will take time. That's just the way things are.

So recently, I've been sticking to playing Meta Knight, which is great. I don't think I've held a character for this long in months. But I think it's mostly due to peer pressure, for lack of a better word. While I am decently happy with my performance and improvement with the character, I feel like he isn't a permanent solution. I feel the urge to play different characters all the time, but I know they are just fleeting feelings most of the time. (Like today, I wanted to play Roy. Yesterday it was Bowser Jr.) I guess my question is how do you when you've found your main? Because I don't feel that way. I still feel lost.

 

[Otterz]

How do you guys go about changing your playstyle?

I play a very reactive playstyle and I rely on setups. I know this isn't the best option, but I can't seem to change how I play. I understand a lot about the game, but when I get in a match I can't seem to bait, condition, read, mixup etc.

Do you guys have any ideas to develop the mental/psychological part of your play?

 

[teluoborg]

then how do i deal with being bad because i hate being bad at something?

Take solace in the fact that everyone but Zero is bad at the game. Even top players like Nairo have huge **** up moments.

So don't try to get better, try to be less bad. Identify your mistakes and bad habits then get rid of them.
Try to avoid autopilot as it prevents you from thinking during a match.

 

[Megamang]

How do you guys go about changing your playstyle?

I play a very reactive playstyle and I rely on setups. I know this isn't the best option, but I can't seem to change how I play. I understand a lot about the game, but when I get in a match I can't seem to bait, condition, read, mixup etc.

Do you guys have any ideas to develop the mental/psychological part of your play?

This is going to sound really obvious, but you have to practice those things. Hop online, or a local event/person you play with if possible, and just... start learning those styles. You can't suddenly be good at baiting if you haven't even baited before. That sounded odd. Anyways, you can also watch footage, compare it to your play, and see what you can add in from there. As other people have said countless times in this thread, consider yourself a player that must improve, and work on your form consistently.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Beating Yoshi's / Jigg's side B

So It is known that those moves are very bad as they have a lot of counters, but I could not find any topic explaining what those counters are.

Could anybody explain what are the properties of the moves and how someone can beat them (general indications) ?

 

[Pazx]

Is there a list of blast line sizes? Curious which stages have the smallest and have heard many conflicting things about dl64, thanks.

Here's the tl;dr as concisely as possible, but if you're interested you can find more indepth data here and here as well as my own research a long time ago.

CEILING HEIGHTS (top blast zone, affects vertical killing moves)

• Battlefield's ceiling is higher than usual.
• Town and City's ceiling is lower than usual.
• FD, Smashville, Dreamland, Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise all have the same ceiling height, somewhere in between Battlefield and Town and City, just slightly closer to Town and City.

SIDE BLAST ZONES - FROM THE EDGE OF THE STAGE

• FD, Smashville, DUCK HUNT, Lylat Cruise and Town and City all have the same distance from the ledge to the side blast zone. These stages are close to the side blast zones.
• Battlefield, Dreamland and Miiverse all have the same distance from the ledge to the side blast zone. These stages are further away from the side blast zones.

SIDE BLAST ZONES - FROM CENTER STAGE

• Battlefield, Dreamland, Duck Hunt, and Miiverse are BIG horizontally.
• Final Destination is the next biggest and still pretty big.
• Town and City and Lylat are tied next in line, but there is a more significant difference between them and FD.
• Smashville is the smallest.

BOTTOM BLAST ZONES

• Lylat is shallow (less space under the ledge)
• Dreamland is deep (lots of space under ledge)

 

[Charey]

Beating Yoshi's / Jigg's side B

So It is known that those moves are very bad as they have a lot of counters, but I could not find any topic explaining what those counters are.

Could anybody explain what are the properties of the moves and how someone can beat them (general indications

Grabs work great because of the limited options (Can't jump like spindash) or any hitbox can beat the move. You can also shield and punish the end lag.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Grabs work great because of the limited options (Can't jump like spindash) or any hitbox can beat the move. You can also shield and punish the end lag.

Can a grab beat out their hitbox or do I need to grab at the cooldown where they are turning around ?

Also is it possible to throw a hitbox by pure reflex ? As they can delay the start up timing.

 

[Charey]

Can a grab beat out their hitbox or do I need to grab at the cooldown where they are turning around ?

Also is it possible to throw a hitbox by pure reflex ? As they can delay the start up timing.

Grab beats the hitbox, depending on grab length it can be tricky. Eggroll can be beat with pure reaction, but maybe not rollout but rollout has enough lag that there isn't any need to challenge it just punish the ending. You can put projectiles in the way so either it hits an arrow or you stop the charge.

 

[ItsASquid]

I joined a Discord smash group today amd surprised myself with a few wins against bouncy opponents! Then I went to FG and began losing to typical Macs and Ikes. Is it normal for some players to struggle on FG but not at other things?

 

[Cool Trainer Ace]

So I've gotten to the intermediate part of my Sm4sh journey, and I'm completely stuck. I'm not getting any better, but thankfully I'm not getting any worse either.

There are a lot of distinct areas I'm lacking in deeply that I just can't seem to work out. The most significant of these problems is the fact that I'm on auto-pilot 90% of the time, meaning I can't pick up any patterns or read people. Which also mean I make my moves based SOLELY on reaction.

Another problem is the fact that I'm an extremely fickle person. I never tend to stay with one character (in any game) for any great length of time. As a matter of fact, I recently just dropped Cloud as my main because of a two-week-straight losing streak online, and I haven't been able to play him at all since then. It's so hard to find a main, because I enjoy using just about every character. All the characters I play are fun, all of them are unique, and I just can't decide between them. My main changes with my mood. Some days I feel like being at close range, so I pull out Dr. Mario or Roy. Some days I feel like spacing, so I pull out Corrin or Ike or Lucina. Other days I feel like keeping my opponent as far away from me as possible, so I pull out Villager or Mega Man. I love these characters (and more), but I want a singular character I can fall back on, a character that pertains to me specifically, so I can proudly announce: "I am a _____ main!" without having to have second thoughts. I don't have a distinct play style, and that hurts me greatly as I'm put into the category of "Jack of All Trades, Master of None," which is not good, and I don't focus down on one character, which severely limits my abilities.

I know I'm not a bad player: I get some pretty good wins sometimes, but I make petty mistakes often because I don't seem to know my character all that well and I don't think. Whenever I enter any sort of match, my brain completely shuts down until something threatening happens. By then it's too late.

It's obvious I'm going to need a ton of assistance with some of these, because I haven't been able to work these out myself. I'll keep doing what I can, but if you have any advice for either of these problems, I'm open to it. I need all I can get.
And thanks so much in advance for those of you who are willing to help me out, even if all of this is just whining. I know this is some pretty rookie stuff, but I haven't seemed to outgrow it yet, even at my skill level.

 

[Jamurai]

So I've gotten to the intermediate part of my Sm4sh journey, and I'm completely stuck. I'm not getting any better, but thankfully I'm not getting any worse either.

There are a lot of distinct areas I'm lacking in deeply that I just can't seem to work out. The most significant of these problems is the fact that I'm on auto-pilot 90% of the time, meaning I can't pick up any patterns or read people. Which also mean I make my moves based SOLELY on reaction.

Another problem is the fact that I'm an extremely fickle person. I never tend to stay with one character (in any game) for any great length of time. As a matter of fact, I recently just dropped Cloud as my main because of a two-week-straight losing streak online, and I haven't been able to play him at all since then. It's so hard to find a main, because I enjoy using just about every character. All the characters I play are fun, all of them are unique, and I just can't decide between them. My main changes with my mood. Some days I feel like being at close range, so I pull out Dr. Mario or Roy. Some days I feel like spacing, so I pull out Corrin or Ike or Lucina. Other days I feel like keeping my opponent as far away from me as possible, so I pull out Villager or Mega Man. I love these characters (and more), but I want a singular character I can fall back on, a character that pertains to me specifically, so I can proudly announce: "I am a _____ main!" without having to have second thoughts. I don't have a distinct play style, and that hurts me greatly as I'm put into the category of "Jack of All Trades, Master of None," which is not good, and I don't focus down on one character, which severely limits my abilities.

I know I'm not a bad player: I get some pretty good wins sometimes, but I make petty mistakes often because I don't seem to know my character all that well and I don't think. Whenever I enter any sort of match, my brain completely shuts down until something threatening happens. By then it's too late.

It's obvious I'm going to need a ton of assistance with some of these, because I haven't been able to work these out myself. I'll keep doing what I can, but if you have any advice for either of these problems, I'm open to it. I need all I can get.
And thanks so much in advance for those of you who are willing to help me out, even if all of this is just whining. I know this is some pretty rookie stuff, but I haven't seemed to outgrow it yet, even at my skill level.

If you really can't choose between main characters, just pick the best one. It will let you play to your full potential. In this case, it's Cloud. My advice is, don't practise more than 2-3 characters seriously. Learning loads of characters holds people back from learning the actual game. If you're on a losing streak or getting annoyed, just take a break altogether. Tilt is real, both short-term and long-term, and can spoil your affection for a game.

Autopiloting too often is quite common I believe, I have this problem as well but am improving. There are many little things you can do to help but the most important one is just playing more. Experience will help you a lot.

Focus on what your goal is in a particular game situation, yes it's to end their stocks but how? If they're at low % you need to rack up damage first. How do you rack up damage against this character at this %? By using X, Y or Z combo or string. Do land it you need to start with a confirm or a grab. To land the confirm or grab you need to trick them into letting you land it, by either baiting an approach/dashing in/etc. or conditioning them to shield. Blah blah blah.

Obviously don't focus too hard on landing one thing and end up fishing which is predictable and easy to punish, you need to have it in mind while trying to stay on the move and avoiding their stuff too. If you think this way, autopiloting is difficult because naturally you will be concentrating very hard on balancing landing your optimal combo, string or whatever with staying unpredictable. Also, think about what do THEY want and how can I punish them for wanting it? Are they trying to avoid my confirm and if so how will they do it and can I punish them for doing it predictably? So much to think about at one time. Focus!

Other things you can do include lessening distraction by using headphones, changing your in-game tag to something like "FOCUS!" (Dabuz did this for a while), and literally just recognising whenever your mind isn't racing with predictions and getting back in the game.

I may have just rambled some bull**** but hopefully it's helpful in some way.

 

[Megamang]

Also, I would like to add; know your gameplan before the game, and focus on your opponent during the game. Personally, I believe you should always be looking at either the space between the two characters, or your opponents character. This will make predictions and reads much easier, since you can notice small tendencies much better (when I perfect pivot backwards, you better believe im coming in with a dashgrab!).


You should know what your character is doing, and where, with only an occasional glance. The exception is probably doing something specific based on your spacing, like trying to hit a ledge cancel'd special.

 

[LeifEriksson]

I joined a Discord smash group today amd surprised myself with a few wins against bouncy opponents! Then I went to FG and began losing to typical Macs and Ikes. Is it normal for some players to struggle on FG but not at other things?

Yeah, I can't play for glory for **** but I can play almost decent on anthers ladder.

 

[PMMikey]

Does anyone have any kind of links to any programs that could possibly show more into the game like an example being like brawl box but I mean anything like that for sm4sh?

 

[Megamang]

There are hitbox visualizations now, if you're looking for that kind of thing. If you are looking for a program specifically, I believe most of the guts of the game are explored via 3DS.

 

[TAN-MAN]

As someone who is trying to improve their Smash 4 game, there is a term I hear over and over again and a term that is inherently tied to improving not only at this game but at anything in life: The Fundamentals.

In order to become a good player, you obviously need to have a strong grasp of your fundamentals. So, as someone who is very new to competitive smash and competitive gaming in general, I have to ask the question, what are the fundamentals of Smash 4?

What are the best ways to practice these fundamentals?

Of course I have a general idea of what fundamentals are but I would like to see what people view the fundamentals of Smash 4 to be.

Also questions to be considered:
Are there character specific fundamentals?
Match-up specific fundamentals?

I just hear this term tossed around a lot but I haven't truly seen this fleshed out into the specifics of what the fundamentals are considered to be.

If an article, thread, etc. already exists that discusses this topic in detail, please point me in that direction.

TL;DR: What are the fundamentals of Smash 4, and what are the best ways to hone these fundamental skills?

 

[LeifEriksson]

As someone who is trying to improve their Smash 4 game, there is a term I hear over and over again and a term that is inherently tied to improving not only at this game but at anything in life: The Fundamentals.

In order to become a good player, you obviously need to have a strong grasp of your fundamentals. So, as someone who is very new to competitive smash and competitive gaming in general, I have to ask the question, what are the fundamentals of Smash 4?

What are the best ways to practice these fundamentals?

Of course I have a general idea of what fundamentals are but I would like to see what people view the fundamentals of Smash 4 to be.

Also questions to be considered:
Are there character specific fundamentals?
Match-up specific fundamentals?

I just hear this term tossed around a lot but I haven't truly seen this fleshed out into the specifics of what the fundamentals are considered to be.

If an article, thread, etc. already exists that discusses this topic in detail, please point me in that direction.

TL;DR: What are the fundamentals of Smash 4, and what are the best ways to hone these fundamental skills?

Fundamentals are knowing what to do, and how to do it in any random situation.
For example, someone with good fundamentals knows when to throw out a projectile and not be punished in the neutral game. They know when it is 100% safe to throw it out. Another part of good fundamentals is setting up for combos in neutral.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or if you have anything to add.

 

[AFROGOD]

I am new to the smash bros competitive scene, and I was wondering if anyone could gives me some tips for going to a local tournament Thanks

 

[PMMikey]

I am new to the smash bros competitive scene, and I was wondering if anyone could gives me some tips for going to a local tournament Thanks

Don't let losing bring you down, also get to know the community you live around and just keep in mind whats important and that's to have fun and not get too salty. lol

 

[TAN-MAN]

Fundamentals are knowing what to do, and how to do it in any random situation.
For example, someone with good fundamentals knows when to throw out a projectile and not be punished in the neutral game. They know when it is 100% safe to throw it out. Another part of good fundamentals is setting up for combos in neutral.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or if you have anything to add.

Thank you, but I meant more along the lines of what particular techniques or aspects of the game are considered fundamentals?

Like spacing, punishing etc.

 

[Megamang]

Being able to make your character do whatever is within their limits, and knowing those limits, make up a lot of fundamentals. Knowing when you can get an optimal punish, vs just dashgrabbing every time they land, is a fundamentals issue.

Basically... they are fundamentals if they would apply to other characters, and they are basic smash fundamentals if they apply to every game.

 

[epicnights]

I'm going to CEO and am interested in taking notes on any and all matches I play there. What would be the best things to take note of?

 

[LeifEriksson]

I'm going to CEO and am interested in taking notes on any and all matches I play there. What would be the best things to take note of?

Your good and bad habits mainly, and how to optimize your punishes.

 

[Megamang]

Leif is totally right. For better analysis, see if you can record a couple of matches, especially matches where you feel you played your best.

Enjoy yourself! Also, try and friendly high level players as much as you can. They should like playing with fans, and you'll see what really works and what really doesn't.

don't put a lot of pressure on yourself. Not only is it unnecessary, it will hurt your performance.

 

[PMMikey]

I want to practice more but I feel like I reached my high point, you know? Like I don't know what to even do in the lab anymore. What skills should I learn if you have any to offer plus what do you do in the lab like how do you spend say an hour in there?

 

[Genghis_Khan]

Hi

I just signed up to these forums! Hello all. I am a casual player from Finland, but recently I've taken interest in the competitive side of the game. I've played only Brawl previously, and because of my fondness of the Fire Emblem series, especially the game Path of Radiance, my main in smash is Ike. I dare say I'm pretty badass with Ike already, but I tend to have tough time against all speedy characters whenever a skilled player using such characters comes up against me. Or in actuality, it's not always just the speed, but spammable projectiles tend to disturb my game a lot and it gives me much trouble, resulting in reckless and hasty attacks from my part, which are easily punished. Against some very skilled players that I've faced online, my hit percentage tends to drop a lot. When playing with Ike against really good players, it usually is around 20%. A lot of that consists of decoys and false attacks; Ike's game tends to be rather predictable, my favourite move is to attack with neutral air, because it's a very versatile move. Sometimes I deliberately leave it short, expecting the enemy to hit the shield button automatically, so I can follow up with a grap or the jab. Quick Draw is also extremely useful in closing down opponents, but deliberately leaving it short gives you options from there on.

My question is do I have any real chance entering a tournament playing with Ike? My normal playingstyle is very aggressive, I want to attack as much as I can. Often my attacks get pretty predictable, and even if I do my best to add a lot variety to my game, the sheer speed and agility of other characters make it hard with Ike to keep up. When I'm struggling and slashing with my sword about, my hit percentage tends to be about 20%, as I mentioned earlier. Is this not good enough? I discovered if I adopted more defensive stance, like I waited for the enemy to come to me, instead of attacking him or her head-on like a berserker, I usually did a bit better. But I dislike waiting/camping/negative playingstyle. I need to attack. In short, is there much point pursuing any glory in the competitive business, or should I just remain a casual Ike player? :D

A long text, my forgiveness. TL;DR, In order to become a very competitive player, is it mandatory to learn to play well with top tier characters?

For the record, my role model is San. You can search San Ike from youtube, and you should get plenty of results. His fluent movement with Ike is quite extraordinary, and his level is something I've aspired to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3-u3Ku1V0Y

Here is a very recent video of his game. San is quite an unique talent.

 

[Megamang]

I'd say most smashers are weak on their ledge coverage. Most characters have identical or extremely similar frame data on the ledge, so learn to trap characters there. Learn what is the best punish for each ledge option.

 

[Tankendog]

You dont have to play a top tier to be a competitive player, but a better character is a heck of a lot more likely to win that a pre dispositioned character.

As for hit percentage, this is not the best metric for calculating what you are searching for. Also, I hate to say it, but smash is way more defensive than it looks. There sadly is very few, if any, melee falcos in this game, so going agro all game is a tough way to win.

 

[Genghis_Khan]

What's your view on proactive and reactive playingstyles? Proactive meaning in this case that you play the game on your terms; you seek out the opponent and try to combine with combos you practice every time you play. With Ike for example I use to down tilt enemies, follow up with forward aerial and sometimes even use Aether to top it off. If the enemy is at low percentages, grap, up-throw and aether works too. There are a few other tools too, for example Eruption has multiple niche moves, as well as jab cancel and quick draw. If you play with Ike, you really have to pursue these opportunities, so you have to attack.

Reactive playingstyle fits well with characters like Link, Villager, Mewtwo, Megaman and many more. Link especially, if your enemy is defensive and reluctant to engage you directly, you can make his or her life hell with those bombs, arrows and boomerang spams. You can essentially keep spamming the entire game, use sword only when you need to, for example when going for the kill.

What's your view on this matter? Do you prefer to be more proactive, aggressive, offensive, whatever. Or is it simply a matter of character choice. With Link and others it makes sense to adopt a more defensive stance and spam all that stuff. In competitive sense I guess there cannot be right or wrong playingstyle, but do you respect more players who rely more on attacking instincts and reflexes and all that, instead of avoiding direct combat and playing careful, methodical game at all times?

 

[Jamurai]

As someone who is trying to improve their Smash 4 game, there is a term I hear over and over again and a term that is inherently tied to improving not only at this game but at anything in life: The Fundamentals.

In order to become a good player, you obviously need to have a strong grasp of your fundamentals. So, as someone who is very new to competitive smash and competitive gaming in general, I have to ask the question, what are the fundamentals of Smash 4?

What are the best ways to practice these fundamentals?

Of course I have a general idea of what fundamentals are but I would like to see what people view the fundamentals of Smash 4 to be.

Also questions to be considered:
Are there character specific fundamentals?
Match-up specific fundamentals?

I just hear this term tossed around a lot but I haven't truly seen this fleshed out into the specifics of what the fundamentals are considered to be.

If an article, thread, etc. already exists that discusses this topic in detail, please point me in that direction.

TL;DR: What are the fundamentals of Smash 4, and what are the best ways to hone these fundamental skills?

Fundamentals as you have described aren't things one can really grind, they really just come with playing the game or the character a lot. There's only so much labbing one can do given Smash's poor training mode, the best way to practise is to play vs players on a similar level to your own or slightly better than you. Recognising what to do in a certain situation is much easier if you've just been there before.

Terms which people throw around which could be considered aspects of fundamentals include spacing, baiting, reads, downloading, mixups, movement, traps, juggling and footsies.

 

[RudyTutti]

Lately I've noticed that my movement and gameplay is really good while I'm in control. But when I lose control of the game, I start panicking and make poor choices. What do I do when this happens and how do I get the jitters out?

 

[HoSmash4]

Lately I've noticed that my movement and gameplay is really good while I'm in control. But when I lose control of the game, I start panicking and make poor choices. What do I do when this happens and how do I get the jitters out?

You gotta remember you're in disadvantage for a reason. Be calm. Think about what option you're taking and reset to neutral first to get a good footing.

 

[LeifEriksson]

Lately I've noticed that my movement and gameplay is really good while I'm in control. But when I lose control of the game, I start panicking and make poor choices. What do I do when this happens and how do I get the jitters out?

Whatever you do, WHATEVER YOU DO, NEVER STOP THINKING.

When you go autopilot, you lost the game. When you or your opponent is killed, sit back for a second and think. What are they most likely going to do if I do X? Try and make a game plan during these quiet moments. There's nothing wrong with sitting on the respawn platform for a few seconds, just thinking.

 

[LeifEriksson]

I'm going to my first tournament this Saturday, any advice?
I just really don't want to go 0-2, I'd hate that.