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G&W Stage Counterpicks and Bans: Snake

K 2

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I've listed some character counterpicks in my stage discussion thread, but if you wanted to know what stage to counterpick against a particular character, you would have to read through 20 or so stage discussions. This thread will allow you to easily find CP stages against certain characters. We will discuss what stages you could counterpick/ban against the character we are discussing. I'll try to list 3 stages to CP and 3 stages to Ban.

I plan to just follow the current tierlist and go from there, since the top tiered characters are used more often at tournaments than their low-tiered counterparts. I'll probably spend anywhere from 2-4 days discussing each character, before I move on to another one. All discussion will take place on this thread, and I'll write up a brief synposis along with a list of stages to CP/ban with each character.

Meta Knight:

Counterpick:

Ban:

Snake:

Counterpick:

Ban:

 

Noa.

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Taking a look at G&W's best stages, I say Green Greens and Corneria are the way to go. Rainbow Cruise is a great stage for MK, so it isn't a solid counterpick. Green Greens and Corneria's close killzones aid G&W more than MK, making Green Greens and Corneria eligble counterpicks.

It goes without saying to ban Luigi's Mansion, as we don't get anywhere near the advantage that MK gets. I'm not too sure on any other stages to ban.
 

cutter

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If it's legal, you're pretty much forced to ban Luigi's Mansion. MK has such absurb advantages on that stage and he can just play defensive all match and you're really in for long match if that's the case.

This is where stages like Luigi's Mansion need to be banned in tournaments to begin with; I do not like wasting my stage ban on a stage I am FORCED to get rid of or I pretty much autolose on their counterpick.

If Mansion is already banned, then get rid of Delfino. That place is also another playground for MK to waste a lot of characters on.
 

omegablackmage

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i've been toying with the idea that halberd is good. The top makes it easier to kill with gw, and mk isn't too good at the vert kills. Seems good on paper. However sometimes, i find that mk can camp under that main platform while the ship is moving, and it can be pretty **** tough to approach him if done right (dsmash, ftilt, even tornado can be a pain under this platform). I dunno, any thoughts on halberd?
 

A2ZOMG

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Personally, I think Japes could potentially be a better counterpick against Metaknight.

I mean the stage is way too huge for Metaknight to easily gimp anything. You're going to survive a LOOOOOOOOOOT longer than him here. The only disadvantage I can see is Metaknight planking under the main platform.

not that Halberd is bad at all, but I think focusing on not getting KOed super early by Meta is a little more important.
 

_Phloat_

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Nah. Japes Sucks. He can SL safely off the side for gimps on the right. He camps hardcore the whole time and his d-smash is a lot more reliable than yours there..

I prefer to CP FD, IF I am for some reason staying GaW. I see no reason to stay GaW vs MK, but if there was one I would probably go FD.
 

Neb

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Taking a look at G&W's best stages, I say Green Greens and Corneria are the way to go. Rainbow Cruise is a great stage for MK, so it isn't a solid counterpick. Green Greens and Corneria's close killzones aid G&W more than MK, making Green Greens and Corneria eligble counterpicks.

It goes without saying to ban Luigi's Mansion, as we don't get anywhere near the advantage that MK gets. I'm not too sure on any other stages to ban.
I'd be a bit iffy about counterpicking GG's. MK has better, more relaxed/flexible aerial mobility,
so he could practically camp the map better than Game & Watch, if that's the stage element you're trying to exploit.
 

Noa.

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I generally like playing halberd because I can play shark on the moving part, and it seems easier to get edgeguarding KOs on the ship part. Unlike some characters, we don't have to worry about accidentally killing ourselves. Problem is, MK plays shark better than us and edgeguarding a decent MK is laughable.

I could definetly see use in the potential for early vertical KOs though. It seems a little bit more advantageous to MK when I first look at it, but it could still be considered as a possible Mk counter if it's looked into enough.
 

cutter

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DO NOT go to Final D. IMO it is GW's worst stage. It's so linear and without platforms you won't be able to mask your approaches very well against MK. Keep in mind that MK's tilts outrange and outspeed GW as well as his grounded up B plowing through stuff like Bair.
 

Grey Belnades

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DO NOT go to Final D. IMO it is GW's worst stage. It's so linear and without platforms you won't be able to mask your approaches very well against MK. Keep in mind that MK's tilts outrange and outspeed GW as well as his grounded up B plowing through stuff like Bair.
well for me, i mostly brawl in FD, for some reason, my G&W most wins in that stage.
 

Noa.

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I'd be a bit iffy about counterpicking GG's. MK has better, more relaxed/flexible aerial mobility,
so he could practically camp the map better than Game & Watch, if that's the stage element you're trying to exploit.
Meh, you're right. Green Greens does tend to help aerial characters, making it actually possible to camp. And it seems that MK can do it better than G&W. MK can be quite annoying.
 

K 2

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Halberd seems good in theory, but G&W doesn't really have any options if MK is camping under the platform. MK can hit you through the platform, but G&W is helpless to attack back.

I see Jungle Japes as a viable counterpick, as long as you avoid his SL gimping. Even though the high ceilings hinder G&W's usmash, G&W can easily outlast MK on this stage. MK doesn't have a reliable way to momentum cancel, so when it comes down to stock tanking, G&W will win. MK won't get gimped by the water, unlike many other character.

I'm not too sure about stages like Green Greens and Corneria. G&W can kill MK with a smash at like 30% if you are near the edge, along with other shenangians like free buckets, dtilt locks, etc. However, MK's smashes wins out in speed. The tight death zones make it easier for MK to land kills, considering his smash attacks are relatively weaker.
 

SilverBlaze

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I think that Rainbow Cruise would be a decent choice. A low ceiling, especially at the top, will make life easy for GW and hard for MK, especially if GW doesn't bait grounded shuttle loops by using the turtle. MK also has a difficult time beating GW in straight up aerial matches, which is what RC largely consists of.
 

Grey Belnades

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Play better players then, especially against good Marths, MKs, and Snakes on Final D. It is not good at all for GW.
that is what i do, i do play against a good marth and good snake in fact i started winning in rows now against my friends snake but so far i just need to figure out metaknight
 

Neb

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I like CP'ing Pirate Ship against MK, water camping there is just too good, and also PS1 to abuse the terrain.
 

AzNfinesse

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personally i like to fight MK in one of two stages:

corneria - the low ceiling makes it easy to kill meta and meta doesn't have very much vertical kill options unless he catches u in the air. plus the laser buckets is a nice option if you have the skill and time. i personally like to avoid the bottom area unless i have a nice lead. his dsmash will destroy you at low percentages. also, the curved surface makes it hard for meta to follow up with a lot of his combos.

jungle japes - so long as you can avoid getting gimped at the sides, you have higher survivability here compared to Meta. also, a lot of MK's moves are limited due to the risk of falling into the water (although a skilled metaknight won't be affected by this as much, but that factor is still there for you to exploit).
 

A2ZOMG

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About FD:

It is both Metaknight and G&W's worst neutral. I mean....it's not like you really lose out on this stage in specific against Metaknight.

I've been thinking, Metaknight is probably one of the few characters where considering a bigger stage is favorable. Many of Metaknight's most feared KOs involve sheer horizontal gimps. The effectiveness of his gimps goes down DRASTICALLY the more space you have, and even more if you DI excellently and Bucket Brake.
 

OverLade

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MK ***** GaW hard on yoshis island. He also has a decent edge on BF.

As far as against MK, CP Final D, or mabye halberd.
 

_Phloat_

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DO NOT go to Final D. IMO it is GW's worst stage. It's so linear and without platforms you won't be able to mask your approaches very well against MK. Keep in mind that MK's tilts outrange and outspeed GW as well as his grounded up B plowing through stuff like Bair.
MK won't be as able to approach (lol...) either. And his tilts outranginging and outspeeding us + the grounded shuttle loop make this matchup dumb, and I really don't see that there is a stage that takes this away from him. Regardless of where he is these are huge advantages.

Also consider that any platform you can nair pressure, he can u-air -> nair pressure, a solution just as good with more damage output.

At least on FD he can't just outmanuever us too much.
 

Infinitysmash

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Pointing out a few things I've noticed:

1) Green Greens is actually very good against Metaknight. You can set up for a sweet spot down smash that kills in the 50s there and Metaknight can't really pressure a smart Game and Watch player near the sides which effectively forces him to the inside of the stage. Metaknight can't escape the down throw into down smash on either of the platforms or the two sides of the stage, plus Game and Watch has plenty of recovery options from under the stage and cannot be edge hogged here. This combined with a low ceiling and Game and Watch living about 40% longer than Metaknight with Bucket Braking makes things difficult here. (I'm not exaggerating the Bucket Braking thing either. UTD Zac lived from a fresh grounded Shuttle Loop at 140% against Dojo on Green Greens in tournament and ended up winning the match because of this and the bombs on the right side of the stage killing Dojo off to the left at 80%)

2) Corneria is also good against Metaknight with Game and Watch. While the zoning concept presented above isn't nearly as effective here you do have more gimmicks here than Metaknight plus having survivability on your side once again. The right side of the stage also favors you because it's easy to tech read Metaknight over there and proper tech reading can lead into a tilt lock. Game and Watch can also smash DI out of Metaknight's 'tilt lock' on the right and escape with his Up B. Plus the whole kills-at-zero thing with the bucket makes things worse too.

3) Last option is Halberd. Metaknight actually can't approach a patient Game and Watch from below the stage here or he'll eat a ton of damage. The low ceiling makes from some lower-than-average kills and you can once again set up for down throw into down smash on the platform here. Things change a bit when the stage lands on the ship because it's easier for Metaknight to approach and space you here because you don't have the sides to play around with. On the initial stage you can safely shark with your neutral air and it's difficult for Metaknight to punish properly. If Metaknight is attempting to come at you from under the stage try and aim your down air to hit around the sloped area as the slope throws off most Metaknight players and you'll hit them past their up air here and likely get both hits.

4) Ban Luigi's if it's legal. This map is absurd.

5) If Luigi's isn't legal then either Rainbow Cruise or Delfino Plaza are the next stages you want to consider banning. Whichever you personally feel less comfortable on.
 

Padô

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Lol, corneria is a bad stage, stars KO's too easy to do especially if UPb'd on the ground, GW is too light to play this map, i would suggest Pokemon Stadium because of the platforms and the edge which dsmashes work.
 

AzNfinesse

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Lol, corneria is a bad stage, stars KO's too easy to do especially if UPb'd on the ground, GW is too light to play this map, i would suggest Pokemon Stadium because of the platforms and the edge which dsmashes work.
MK's upB rarely star KO's...if ever. Unless you're at 120%...you can most likely bucket brake it. If you're going to fall for an upB to a MK from the ground, then there may be some issues. MK's vertical kills are EXTREMELY limited, and you have the advantage here since you have way more vertical kill options. The main advantages on corneria is the sloped surface to keep MK's combos from connecting as easily. Also, the right portion of the stage is in your favor if you play properly. You also, forget, MK is a light character too, and GnW's smash attacks and kill moves have a MUCH higher kill potential compared to MK. Just avoid getting gimped and you should have the advantage on this stage.
 

Nicole

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Most MK players will ban Corneria against GW, just a thought. Green Greens is probably your best bet.
 

Hylian

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1. Corneria

2. Green Greens/Halberd
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I really like Norfair here, as crazy as it may sound. My experience with Meta Knight is that you lose in horizontal confrontations (turtle vs Shuttle Loop) but win in vertical ones (key and fishbowl beat Meta Knight's stuff cleanly). On Norfair, I approach from below the stage a ton, and I use that to generally make the fact that Shuttle Loop cleanly beats the turtle matter as little as possible. Of course, I'm crazy enough that I'd be willing to challenge Meta Knight at ledge games; if you aren't that crazy, the current advice of Corneria/Green Greens may be better for you.

I am thinking that Luigi's Mansion might be a better stage to deal with than Final Destination actually; on Final Destination, it seems like Meta Knight can just abuse Shuttle Loop beating your turtle approach with you not having much you can do about it. On Luigi's Mansion you can at least go for things like Fire to pop him out of Mach Tornado or camp the top of the mansion and stuff like that...
 

Hylian

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I really like Norfair here, as crazy as it may sound. My experience with Meta Knight is that you lose in horizontal confrontations (turtle vs Shuttle Loop) but win in vertical ones (key and fishbowl beat Meta Knight's stuff cleanly). On Norfair, I approach from below the stage a ton, and I use that to generally make the fact that Shuttle Loop cleanly beats the turtle matter as little as possible. Of course, I'm crazy enough that I'd be willing to challenge Meta Knight at ledge games; if you aren't that crazy, the current advice of Corneria/Green Greens may be better for you.

I am thinking that Luigi's Mansion might be a better stage to deal with than Final Destination actually; on Final Destination, it seems like Meta Knight can just abuse Shuttle Loop beating your turtle approach with you not having much you can do about it. On Luigi's Mansion you can at least go for things like Fire to pop him out of Mach Tornado or camp the top of the mansion and stuff like that...
I concur with this. I love fighting MK's on norfair and hate playing them on FD.

Pirate ship is a pretty good choice, and I also actually like Rainbow Cruise against MK. Most MK mains in texas actually ban RC vs me if corneria isn't legal >_>.
 

K 2

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So far, here's a summary of the discussion:

Counterpick:

Corneria (often banned)
Green Greens (often banned)
Pirate Ship
PS 1
Halberd
Norfair

Ban:

Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise (depending on your comfort level with this stage)
Final Destination

Do you guys want me to add/subtract any stages from that list?
 

xX-LeaF-Xx

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Green Greens or Corneria work well against MK. Although FD is considered both G&W and MK's worst stage, I feel that G&W does a bit better than MK on it( Or maybe I'm just an idiot.)
 

FakeGeorge

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I don't think a G&W should ban FD against Metaknight. The stage is large enough that you can live a good while with a little sense, good DI, and bucket braking.

I'm not sure if it would be worth counterpicking, though. I just know I'd be happy if a MK ever picked FD against me. There are certainly worse stages than FD, such as Delfino. We only get one stage ban in a set, and I don't see Delfino ever being a banned stage, like Luigi's often is.

What do people think about Jungle Japes? I've never player a MK here, but I'd think that the size of the stage plus bucket braking would really help out.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The problem with Final Destination is that there are no platforms. How do you approach Meta Knight there? You can bait him and whatnot, but let's break approaching down to the simplest level here. On a flat line, Mr. Game & Watch's main approach is the turtle. It pressures shields and beats out almost everything. It's harder against Snake, but it can be done with good spacing. Marth says no to the whole affair with Dolphin Slash. Notice where Snake and Marth rank among Mr. Game & Watch's matchups? Now consider Meta Knight who can use Shuttle Loop to cleanly and consistently beat the turtle. It's not frame 1 invincible, but it's good enough to make the turtle horizontal approach really weak against Meta Knight. Meta Knight is too fast for your smashes/ftilt, and down tilt is hard to find follow ups for against Meta Knight. Trying to approach with other aerials horizontally is not a particularly good choice either; forward aerial is insanely unsafe on block, and neutral aerial coming in from the side has too many range issues to be a particularly good idea against Meta Knight's not as small as it initially seems with transcendent priority sword. Approaching a neutral position Meta Knight as Mr. Game & Watch on a flat line is no small task.

One solution to this problem is to avoid approaching from the side whenever possible. Going to platforms on different vertical levels from Meta Knight is a really basic part of this, and only one stage never offers this. There are other tactics to break it up; utilizing stage movement and natural divisions in the stage to make the match have generally more jumping around is an option. Notice that most of the stages we prefer are stages that really allow tons of different vertical levels (like Norfair) or have major natural divisions that do the same job (Green Greens, Corneria, Pokemon Stadium 1). Pirate Ship's water mechanics just change the basic rules of the game in a different way, and somewhere while you're splashing around the whole "Shuttle Loop beats the turtle" problem doesn't seem like the big thing to worry about anymore. I'm sure Final Destination is "bad" for Meta Knight in some abstract way revolving around his ability to exploit a bunch of positions that don't exist on it against characters who are much worse at jumping around than Mr. Game & Watch, but in this particular matchup, I don't see why Meta Knight wouldn't run to it. I can see why people would want to use their ban on Luigi's Mansion with its special way of being abused by Meta Knight, but I just don't see it with stages like Delfino Plaza.

Also, Final Destination isn't that big; it's not a bad stage for bucket braking, but it's nothing special either. Jungle Japes is the right train of thought if that's your cup of tea and probably a pretty good choice overall, but when I have to decide, I'd generally favor maximizing my ability to land and avoid hits as opposed to my ability to survive them.
 

Ice_smash

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How does Mr. Game & Watch do against Metaknight on the other neutral stages such as Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, and Lylat? After all, the first match has to be played on one of them.
 
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