Frisk is Determined to Fight! Frisk Supporter Thread

OrpheusTelos

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The overwhelmingly positive reaction to the Sans costume actually got me thinking about how much the speculation scene underestimated the demand for Undertale content in Smash. If you exclusively hung around certain Smash circles, you'd get the impression that Sans and Steve were the most hated characters because they came from "le epic cringe games" or whatever, but the reactions to Sans on Twitter does not reflect that at all. Everyone I've seen on social media was so excited for the Sans costume that it basically overshadowed Banjo's release and the actual character reveal of Terry. I think it speaks volumes to Undertale's popularity that a freaking Mii Costume was able to get that big of a reaction out of people, and should shut up anyone who says it isn't as big of a deal as Shovel Knight or Shantae. Whether it be for the additional DLC or Smash 6, I'm almost certain that a fully realized Undertale character will make it into Smash eventually. The game has left such a huge impact on the gaming landscape, and with the upcoming release of Deltarune, I don't think the Undertale hype will be going away anytime soon.
 

Hexodus

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Some interesting things.

1. Undertale gets special treatment from Nintendo lately, relative to most other indie titles.
  • The Switch port of Undertale was announced on a major Nintendo Direct, not an Indie Direct. (9/13/18)
    • Funny enough, it was the exact same Nintendo Direct that Super Smash Brothers Ultimate was announced in.
  • The release trailer for Undertale's switch port was also in a mainline Nintendo direct. (9/13/18)
  • Deltarune Chapter 1, the demo to Undertale's follow-up game, got a Switch port four months after its PC release.
    • It, too, was announced in a mainline Direct. (2/13/19)
    • It's a bit odd to port a free demo of a PC game that won't actually be finished for many years.
(And, at least at my local GameStop stores, the only indie games you can buy eShop codes for are Undertale and Hollow Knight. I don't know whether that says more about how Nintendo perceives those two titles relative to other indies, or how GameStop perceives them, but it's an interesting data point.)

2. Toby Fox has been working very closely with Game Freak, one of Nintendo's 2nd-party developers.
  • Composing the entire OST for Little Town Hero.
  • Composing a guest song for Pokemon Sword and Shield.
Note: Fox (who is a composer first and foremost, game developer second) clearly doesn't seem to have much an issue offering up his musical talent to other developers. This is likely why Sans is the first (and so far, only) Mii costume to come with a free music track. Speaking of which...

3. The Sans Thing.
  • The Sans costume, more than any other Mii costume, is designed as if it's a full-fledged substitute for a unique fighter, rather than a cheap cosplay.
    • This could be a point against a unique UT fighter ever happening.
    • However, it could just as easily be a way to reduce anger over a future UT fighter "taking" Sans' slot.
  • The trailer alludes to three major Undertale characters: Frisk and Chara via Villager using the stick up-tilt and Villager holding a Killing Edge (representing the NM fight against Sans), and Flowey via a yellow Piranha Plant (representing Flowey's pre-game runs and grudge against Sans).
    • The Chara reference is especially interesting, as they're a spoiler character who Fox often shies away from acknowledging.
  • As far as I can remember, this is the only time Sakurai has had a little post-reveal/release-day talk to the audience about a mere Mii costume.
    • Though, curiously, he doesn't say much of anything about Undertale itself, or the character in question.
    • This chat reveals that Toby Fox and Sakurai have met in person. Just for negotiations over a Mii costume, or...?
  • On both of the official Undertale Twitters, Fox refers to the Sans costume + Megalovania track package as Undertale's "debut" in Smash Ultimate:
Fox's public persona is typically humble and self-depreciating, so using a term that would imply confidence in the possibility of future, additional content... seems a little unusual.

I honestly do suspect that Fox has an advantage over other indie developers due to his game's sheer international popularity... and, on Nintendo's side, I'm sure it's easier to negotiate with a single person than an entire other corporate entity or studio. Considering the majority of the DLC has been characters from games Sakurai personally enjoys, I suppose the only thing in Frisk's way is... how Sakurai feels about Undertale (which we don't currently know).

As a side note, Fox has stated in the past that Melee is one of his favorite games of all time. For what it's worth.
 
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Hexodus

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Insider sources in the Undertale datamining and modding community have recently stated a few things that suggest Deltarune's development has increased in both speed and technical complexity. I don't want the exact details to spread too far, but if you're a member of that community you probably already know what I'm talking about.

In addition, Deltarune is referred to as "upcoming" by the director of the Undertale LIVE concert, in a recent article:
“We want this to be a show that cares as much about the fans as they care about Undertale,” said Visconti. “And fans can continue to expect some aces up our sleeve as excitement builds for the upcoming release of the game’s long-awaited followup, Deltarune.”
Which could just be a guess, nothing suspicious. The writer of the article seems to believe Deltarune will probably never come out, after all. However, Fox is explicitly collaborating with the director and crew on the content of the concert:

Remember that Fox's original estimate for the game's development was about seven years.
I suspect that Fox has gotten help from a professional studio or company with development. Considering recent events, I suspect it to be either Nintendo, or Game Freak. And Game Freak seems to have their hands pretty full, struggling to design new Pokemon games and all that, so...
 
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THE SLOTH

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Whether we’re getting a new Undertale rep or not, it’s so great to see Toby reaching such highs and getting some nice deals with some Nintendo developers. If Toby has gotten a professional team made (possibly with help from devs from Nintendo) due to his newfound exposure to help get Deltarune going, then I can hardly wait to see the end product.
 

MajoraMoon

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Whether we’re getting a new Undertale rep or not, it’s so great to see Toby reaching such highs and getting some nice deals with some Nintendo developers. If Toby has gotten a professional team made (possibly with help from devs from Nintendo) due to his newfound exposure to help get Deltarune going, then I can hardly wait to see the end product.
Yknow how Nintendo collaborated once to make Cadence of Hyrule? What if they made Mother 4 with Toby Fox before porting Mother 3 to the US XD
 

Hexodus

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The new official Undertale merch revealed last month (11/20/19) refers to Frisk by name:



This is a new development. For the past four years, ever since Undertale's 2015 release, all merchandise related to Frisk referred to them as "The Human." Even the artbook, which contains spoilers for the entire game, treats their name as either nonexistent, or too much of a spoiler to even acknowledge. (A treatment the artbook otherwise only reserves for Gaster and Chara.) And even fanworks that made the jump to official merchandise, such as the tarot cards, had to censor Frisk's name to "The Human" in their official versions. [For visual reference: original "Frisk" card, vs official "The Human" card.]

Why the change in policy? And why now?
 

MajoraMoon

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The new official Undertale merch revealed last month (11/20/19) refers to Frisk by name:



This is a new development. For the past four years, ever since Undertale's 2015 release, all merchandise related to Frisk referred to them as "The Human." Even the artbook, which contains spoilers for the entire game, treats their name as either nonexistent, or too much of a spoiler to even acknowledge. (A treatment the artbook otherwise only reserves for Gaster and Chara.) And even fanworks that made the jump to official merchandise, such as the tarot cards, had to censor Frisk's name to "The Human" in their official versions. [For visual reference: original "Frisk" card, vs official "The Human" card.]

Why the change in policy? And why now?
The plot thickens
 

THE SLOTH

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The new official Undertale merch revealed last month (11/20/19) refers to Frisk by name:



This is a new development. For the past four years, ever since Undertale's 2015 release, all merchandise related to Frisk referred to them as "The Human." Even the artbook, which contains spoilers for the entire game, treats their name as either nonexistent, or too much of a spoiler to even acknowledge. (A treatment the artbook otherwise only reserves for Gaster and Chara.) And even fanworks that made the jump to official merchandise, such as the tarot cards, had to censor Frisk's name to "The Human" in their official versions. [For visual reference: original "Frisk" card, vs official "The Human" card.]

Why the change in policy? And why now?
Quick question for anybody that owns this book; does it mention Frisk by name anywhere else, or just on this page? Just curious. If it's only one incident, we could maybe say that Toby didn't notice that during editing, and it might get edited out in later prints, but that might just be a stretch.
 

Hexodus

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Quick question for anybody that owns this book; does it mention Frisk by name anywhere else, or just on this page? Just curious. If it's only one incident, we could maybe say that Toby didn't notice that during editing, and it might get edited out in later prints, but that might just be a stretch.
Frisk's name is also used here, in the credits of the cross-stitch book:



And one of the preview images for the stationary set on Fangamer's website (also released 11/20) shows an envelope hand written "To Frisk":



Which is something that can't exactly be pinned on an oversight. Having Toriel address the human as "Frisk" on this envelope (rather than as "my child," like she does for the majority of the actual game) seems like an intentional choice.
 

Hexodus

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Hey, so, if we decide to treat Verge's latest Big Deconfirm Dump as legit for now (I know other insiders are questioning it)...
It being an Assist Trophy "promoted" to being playable
It being a Spirit "promoted" to being playable
Of course, everyone suspected those things deconfirmed characters anyways. But... i find it a little weird he doesn't also mention Mii costumes, which are treated as equally deconfirming by most people? Seems like a simple and obvious thing to add into the slaughter pile. I'd rather an UT rep not be Sans, but...
 

THE SLOTH

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Hey, so, if we decide to treat Verge's latest Big Deconfirm Dump as legit for now (I know other insiders are questioning it)...

Of course, everyone suspected those things deconfirmed characters anyways. But... i find it a little weird he doesn't also mention Mii costumes, which are treated as equally deconfirming by most people? Seems like a simple and obvious thing to add into the slaughter pile. I'd rather an UT rep not be Sans, but...
Even ignoring the Mii costume stipulation, that list doesn't mention Toby or any indie companies in there, so... assuming these deconfirms are the real deal, our chances are growing higher and higher by the day...
 

Hexodus

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Even ignoring the Mii costume stipulation, that list doesn't mention Toby or any indie companies in there, so... assuming these deconfirms are the real deal, our chances are growing higher and higher by the day...
He mentions the person (ZUN) and company (Team Shanghai Alice) behind Touhou, so Reimu's out.

He says no assists or spirits, so Shovel Knight and Shantae are out.

That still leaves Undertale, Hollow Knight, Cave Story, and a bunch of more obscure indies if Sakurai feels like it.
 

Hexodus

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The smash speculation cycle is stressful, between the Discourse and the leaker drama and all that BS, so I'm probably not participating in the main speculation thread anymore. (#5 sure did turn out to be Byleth huh. At least it;s a big point in favor of Protagonist Privilege being a real thing.)

So I'm just going to mention that I'm surprised nobody in here is talking about how Cuphead (as a franchise) got swiftly hit with the Spirit Board Of Death after Cuphead (as a character) had already been sent to Mii Costume Hell. So Cuphead as a character is double-deconfirmed. But the Sans costume has been out since September, and there's still no Undertale spirit board?

justlikebyleth.png

Just thinking about it.
 
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I know that feel. It's been over three months and we've yet to see any content for :ultluigi:'s Mansion 3 beyond that vacuum cleaner.

If we get any major Undertale/Deltarune content, it depends on whether or not that Kris Mii costume rumor pans out. And if Deltarune eventually gets finished, first.

And yeah, Cuphead is super-dead. Not that it wasn't already, but I didn't expect for DLC Mii costumes to get spirit events down the line.
 
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Hexodus

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I know that feel. It's been over three months and we've yet to see any content for :ultluigi:'s Mansion 3 beyond that vacuum cleaner.

If we get any major Undertale/Deltarune content, it depends on whether or not that Kris Mii costume rumor pans out. And if Deltarune eventually gets finished, first.

And yeah, Cuphead is super-dead. Not that it wasn't already, but I didn't expect for DLC Mii costumes to get spirit events down the line.
I feel like it's a little different, though? Luigi's Mansion is considered part of the Mario franchise for smash. (Though one could argue it has just as much of its own distinct identity as Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and Wario games do, it seems Nintendo doesn't see it that way. :/) It's a shame it's not even getting so much as more spirits, though.

The comparison between Undertale and Cuphead here is interesting because they're two 3rd-party, indie IPs that got the exact same otherwise-unprecedented "Mii Gunner costume that almost looks like an actual fighter + bonus music track" treatment... except that Cuphead (character and franchise) swiftly got double-deconfirmed via spirit event. Meanwhile, the costume for the UT series leaves both the player character and major (non-Sans) NPCs as... possibly not deconfirmed? And the absence of a spirit event... it's just further ambiguity as to whether or not Undertale is actually deconfirmed at this point.

I'm with Paraster - Do you have any more details on this "Kris Mii costume" rumor you speak of? I haven't heard about it. (And I'm pretty sure Deltarune is going to get finished... I've heard rumors from the UT datamining scene that suggest Toby might be getting help from a larger studio.)

And as to DLC costumes getting spirit events... I didn't expect it, either! It's another interesting addition in terms of how series can get represented in Ultimate, though, and I find that kind of neat even beyond speculation.
 
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I feel like it's a little different, though? Luigi's Mansion is considered part of the Mario franchise for smash. (Though one could argue it has just as much of its own distinct identity as Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and Wario games do, it seems Nintendo doesn't see it that way. :/) It's a shame it's not even getting so much as more spirits, though.

The comparison between Undertale and Cuphead here is interesting because they're two 3rd-party, indie IPs that got the exact same otherwise-unprecedented "Mii Gunner costume that almost looks like an actual fighter + bonus music track" treatment... except that Cuphead (character and franchise) swiftly got double-deconfirmed via spirit event. Meanwhile, the costume for the UT series leaves both the player character and major (non-Sans) NPCs as... possibly not deconfirmed? And the absence of a spirit event... it's just further ambiguity as to whether or not Undertale is actually deconfirmed at this point.

I'm with Paraster - Do you have any more details on this "Kris Mii costume" rumor you speak of? I haven't heard about it. (And I'm pretty sure Deltarune is going to get finished... I've heard rumors from the UT datamining scene that suggest Toby might be getting help from a larger studio.)

And as to DLC costumes getting spirit events... I didn't expect it, either! It's another interesting addition in terms of how series can get represented in Ultimate, though, and I find that kind of neat even beyond speculation.
Let's not use any fan rules here, if Nintendo wants to promote something recent in a big way, they will. Not overlooking that possibility. Besides, LM-related stuff would get the mushroom icon anyways (I mean, it took ages for LM to get more than two games, heck the second game wasn't labelled "2" in the US).

No, I haven't heard other details beyond Fatman's theories and "I knew this guy that doesn't have an established name". Until then it's in the "unfounded" category unless a nasty surprise comes out of nowhere.

Sans is cooler than Frisk thoe
Yeah, but you can't deny that they almost always go for the main character of a series first, out of politeness. And due to Tobyfox's stance on Smash representation, Kris would seem likelier since he's not explicitly meant to be a pacifist. That is, assuming Deltarune gets finished in a timely manner, since the lack of a sequel is what killed Cuphead's chances.

Granted, a lot of people assumed :ultisabelle: was super-non-confrontational and she still got in, so what do I know? :drshrug:
 
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Hexodus

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Sans is cooler than Frisk thoe
But he's not the main character of the game. And even out of the major NPCs, Toriel and Flowey are more central to the overarching plot.

There's also the question of what character is most representative of Undertale as a whole. You, as Frisk, can technically fight your way to victory even in a Pacifist run of Undertale, as every random encounter is automatically spareable once their HP hits a low enough threshold. For non-Frisk options, most major characters have bossfights in both Neutral and Pacifist routes. Sans, though... literally only ever bothers to fight you when everyone else is already dead. It's arguably more IC for Frisk to be a fighter in Smash than it is for Sans to be one.
 

THE SLOTH

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So I'm just going to mention that I'm surprised nobody in here is talking about how Cuphead (as a franchise) got swiftly hit with the Spirit Board Of Death after Cuphead (as a character) had already been sent to Mii Costume Hell. So Cuphead as a character is double-deconfirmed. But the Sans costume has been out since September, and there's still no Undertale spirit board?

View attachment 262096
Just thinking about it.
You would think with Toby being a mostly one-man-band that getting a complimentary spirit board would be pretty easy, but somehow that has yet to pan out, while Cuphead got his just a couple weeks after his release. I'm trying not to read too much into this, since we only have two Mii Costumes of Sans'/Cuphead's caliber, but if, for example, we get to Challenger #6 or even #7 and we get another Mii Costume like this, and a spirit board drops for that character's franchise soon after, then I'm going to be a tad suspicious.

Hey, maybe the Sans' costume was just testing the waters? The fighters for the second Fighter's Pass was, at the latest, determined sometime during November when Byleth's overview was filmed (exactly when is unclear, as far as I know). Maybe during the time between Banjo and Byleth, the positive reception to the Sans' costume perhaps furthered discussions for an actual Undertale rep in Smash? This is an incredibly idealistic scenario, but again, Toby is a one-man-band, it's probably a lot easier to work things out with him than another studio (not that Smash has ever proven to have a problem with that, but it works in Toby's favor). It also helps that he can provide new remixes for his songs much like he did for the Megalovania remix.

Yeah, but you can't deny that they almost always go for the main character of a series first, out of politeness. And due to Tobyfox's stance on Smash representation, Kris would seem likelier since he's not explicitly meant to be a pacifist. That is, assuming Deltarune gets finished in a timely manner, since the lack of a sequel is what killed Cuphead's chances.
Could you link to whatever Toby said about Smash representation? I must've missed it or it must've been fairly recent and I'm out of the loop.

And, I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you saying Kris has a better chance as being playable than Frisk or Sans? Or both? Referring to the former, I think Frisk can still work and avoid being full-pacifist. The game is all about exploring different options, so I'm sure the Smash team could make a perfect blend of pacifist/neutral/genocide behavior to represent the impact of player choice that Undertale emphasizes.

Could you also link to what was said about a game not being serialized hurting a character's chances? I haven't heard that before.

Sans is cooler than Frisk thoe
no
 
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Could you link to whatever Toby said about Smash representation? I must've missed it or it must've been fairly recent and I'm out of the loop.

And, I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you saying Kris has a better chance as being playable than Frisk or Sans? Or both? Referring to the former, I think Frisk can still work and avoid being full-pacifist. The game is all about exploring different options, so I'm sure the Smash team could make a perfect blend of pacifist/neutral/genocide behavior to represent the impact of player choice that Undertale emphasizes.

Could you also link to what was said about a game not being serialized hurting a character's chances? I haven't heard that before.


no
Again, being a pacifist apparently isn't an obstacle. If they can make it work in a way that doesn't go against Undertale's message, they will. I probably misinterpreted things due to general fan consensus about Undertale's message, seeing as Toby likes Smash Bros enough to reference it in Deltarune.

Also...

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/

The character must carry game history with them.
Which, as far as Smash 4 was concerned, apparently meant "at least two games or more". :ultbayonetta:

Sure, one could argue having a successful sales impact at launch, but that didn't really help Astral Chain's Akira Howard.
 
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MajoraMoon

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The smash speculation cycle is stressful, between the Discourse and the leaker drama and all that BS, so I'm probably not participating in the main speculation thread anymore. (#5 sure did turn out to be Byleth huh. At least it;s a big point in favor of Protagonist Privilege being a real thing.)

So I'm just going to mention that I'm surprised nobody in here is talking about how Cuphead (as a franchise) got swiftly hit with the Spirit Board Of Death after Cuphead (as a character) had already been sent to Mii Costume Hell. So Cuphead as a character is double-deconfirmed. But the Sans costume has been out since September, and there's still no Undertale spirit board?

View attachment 262096
Just thinking about it.
I don't keep track with spirits so I am completely unaware of this. This does strike me as funny
 

THE SLOTH

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Again, being a pacifist apparently isn't an obstacle. If they can make it work in a way that doesn't go against Undertale's message, they will. I probably misinterpreted things due to general fan consensus about Undertale's message, seeing as Toby likes Smash Bros enough to reference it in Deltarune.

Also...

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/



Which, as far as Smash 4 was concerned, apparently meant "at least two games or more". :ultbayonetta:

Sure, one could argue having a successful sales impact at launch, but that didn't really help Astral Chain's Akira Howard.
I see... the Undertale “series” is in a weird spot, as it had one game and one sequel/prequel/neither/etc currently in development, and we’re not sure if that gives Undertale a pass or delays any possible inclusion until it finishes production. Although the article this rule pulls from is from 2015 (and the quote itself from 2007), so it’s possible Sakurai’s stance has changed on this, but it so far seems most likely not, looking at all of Ultimate’s third parties thus far, base and DLC.
 

Hexodus

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I see... the Undertale “series” is in a weird spot, as it had one game and one sequel/prequel/neither/etc currently in development, and we’re not sure if that gives Undertale a pass or delays any possible inclusion until it finishes production. Although the article this rule pulls from is from 2015 (and the quote itself from 2007), so it’s possible Sakurai’s stance has changed on this, but it so far seems most likely not, looking at all of Ultimate’s third parties thus far, base and DLC.
I mean... didn't Shulk get into SSB4 before any sequels or spinoffs to Xenoblade were actually released? Xenoblade Chronicles X was announced in 2013, but it didn't come out until 2015 - a year after Shulk was already in the base game.
 
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Edit: For those curious about the Kris costume rumor, here is the post in question. Take it with a grain of salt.
https://smashboards.com/profile-posts/978628/

I see... the Undertale “series” is in a weird spot, as it had one game and one sequel/prequel/neither/etc currently in development, and we’re not sure if that gives Undertale a pass or delays any possible inclusion until it finishes production. Although the article this rule pulls from is from 2015 (and the quote itself from 2007), so it’s possible Sakurai’s stance has changed on this, but it so far seems most likely not, looking at all of Ultimate’s third parties thus far, base and DLC.
Shovel Knight in particular suffered badly from it, seeing as his game's DLC was delayed enough that he got an AT and an actual decent set of spirits.

I mean... didn't Shulk get into SSB4 before any sequels or spinoffs to Xenoblade were actually released? Xenoblade Chronicles X was announced in 2013, but it didn't come out until 2015 - a year after Shulk was already in the base game.
Third parties tend to be under more scrutiny under the rule, since, as said in the article, not just anyone and everyone can join. Stuff more directly owned by Nintendo that gets in are usually special or unusual cases when it happens. :ulticeclimbers::ultduckhunt: So far, with Nintendo running the DLC choices, they seem to adhere to it as well.

Also, Sak liked Xenoblade at the time, which certainly explains him having to profusely apologise for XB2's Rex getting consigned into a Mii costume due to poor timing for the base game period/early DLC. I don't know if he was informed about early plans for XBX, although it wouldn't surprise me since he's often informed about Pokémon concepts before their games are out.
 
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THE SLOTH

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Weeell, a recent development that may be in Frisk/an Undertale rep's favor: an ARMS character is confirmed for Challenger Pack 6. ARMS as a franchise, as far as I can tell, consists of only one game. Not sure how far this extends to third parties, whether or not this was an exception for the first party franchise that Nintendo may have thought desperately needed a second chance via a playable rep, but the UNDERTALE "series" only consisting of one game at this time may or may not be a blow against it any longer. Only time will tell...
 
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So I'm just going to mention that I'm surprised nobody in here is talking about how Cuphead (as a franchise) got swiftly hit with the Spirit Board Of Death after Cuphead (as a character) had already been sent to Mii Costume Hell. So Cuphead as a character is double-deconfirmed. But the Sans costume has been out since September, and there's still no Undertale spirit board?
Huh... Suspicious indeed.
 
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