Frisk is Determined to Fight! Frisk Supporter Thread

TheCJBrine

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#81
(Paragon leak Frisk/Sans + Waluigi)


Waluigi is strictly impossible
Sakurai stated this on Miiverse when revealing Waluigi was an Assist Trophy:
"(...) Which also means he’s not a playable character. Just because you try hard doesn’t mean you’ll make it into the battle."
-> Even if they they fulfill some of criteria, some characters can’t join the battle, and Waluigi has just been chosen as an example.
• The distribution between the franchises is taken into account.
-> Mario has just received 1 rep in the base game and 1 rep in DLC.
• The DLC will be "new in the series".
Sakurai can no longer listen to the community for DLC. November 6 2018, two tweets, appeared in English (1st and 2nd addressed to the Westerners), insisted that the DLC characters were planned and that it would be nice to refrain from flooding him and Nintendo with requests, while they aren't specifically in able to reply to comments. Six days before, Sakurai mentioned that the selection of Fighters to be included with the DLC was decided by planning the game, for which it wasn't possible to include Rex or other characters (Spring Man...) in Ultimate. The reason for Rex's exclusion is that the game in which he first appears was announced after the planning. So the schedule for the DLC was decided before January 13 2017, the announcement day of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, even though there was no official announcement. The slots are so strictly reserved that he couldn't include Rex. This reveals that the DLC were decided before Waluigi's announcement as an Assist Trophy, so before the reactions of the fans. So the fan reactions can't do anything, except to provoke Sakurai to say ≈ "Stop! Leave me alone !".
Actually, Sakurai only knew about DLC since January of last year, and the plans probably weren’t finished then since it seems he has had some form of control over it despite it being Nintendo’s idea. It’s more-likely Sakurai meant the base game when he gave his reason regarding Rex just being a costume, but avoided saying anything about why for DLC.

edit: source for when DLC was planned (it’s somewhere down the list): https://nintendoeverything.com/smash-bros-masahiro-sakurai-no-goku-ballot/
 
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MajoraMoon

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#82
(Paragon leak Frisk/Sans + Waluigi)


Waluigi is strictly impossible
Sakurai stated this on Miiverse when revealing Waluigi was an Assist Trophy:
"(...) Which also means he’s not a playable character. Just because you try hard doesn’t mean you’ll make it into the battle."
-> Even if they they fulfill some of criteria, some characters can’t join the battle, and Waluigi has just been chosen as an example.
• The distribution between the franchises is taken into account.
-> Mario has just received 1 rep in the base game and 1 rep in DLC.
• The DLC will be "new in the series".
Sakurai can no longer listen to the community for DLC. November 6 2018, two tweets, appeared in English (1st and 2nd addressed to the Westerners), insisted that the DLC characters were planned and that it would be nice to refrain from flooding him and Nintendo with requests, while they aren't specifically in able to reply to comments. Six days before, Sakurai mentioned that the selection of Fighters to be included with the DLC was decided by planning the game, for which it wasn't possible to include Rex or other characters (Spring Man...) in Ultimate. The reason for Rex's exclusion is that the game in which he first appears was announced after the planning. So the schedule for the DLC was decided before January 13 2017, the announcement day of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, even though there was no official announcement. The slots are so strictly reserved that he couldn't include Rex. This reveals that the DLC were decided before Waluigi's announcement as an Assist Trophy, so before the reactions of the fans. So the fan reactions can't do anything, except to provoke Sakurai to say ≈ "Stop! Leave me alone !".
So, first things first, what Sakurai said on Miiverse does say that he's not a playable character. However, that doesn't mean that he won't be a playable character later. Also, I don't see your point about "the DLC was decided before January 13 2017" the tweets you showed me were posted on November 6th 2018. Which was months after the reactions of fans.
 
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#83
i just find it difficult to imagine them taking a character who is already an assist trophy and making them a playable character. like, what happens to waluigi's assist trophy if he's playable? do they just remove that content from the game? do they leave it in and have a character serve in a strange duel purpose? would waluigi be able to summon himself?

luckily, the character Frisk from Undertale™ does not have to worry about such things
 
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#84
i just find it difficult to imagine them taking a character who is already an assist trophy and making them a playable character. like, what happens to waluigi's assist trophy if he's playable? do they just remove that content from the game? do they leave it in and have a character serve in a strange duel purpose? would waluigi be able to summon himself?

luckily, the character Frisk from Undertale™ does not have to worry about such things
I aforementioned that if Waluigi were to summon an assist trophy of himself, someone else with a similar build would replace him. For example if Waluigi was playable, and he grabbed an assist trophy of himself, Papyrus could replace Waluigi as an assist trophy. But Papyrus will function identical to Waluigi's assist trophy. If Sans or Frisk gets released as the next DLC fighter (which would be upsetting to my point of view despite loving her/him), it would make sense for Papyrus to replace Waluigi's assist trophy when Waluigi is present in battle.

Since, Brawl, you can actually do this via modding. Just replace the assist trophy model with another model of a character who has a similar build. Here's an example.
1565056293270.png
 
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MajoraMoon

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#85
I aforementioned that if Waluigi were to summon an assist trophy of himself, someone else with a similar build would replace him. For example if Waluigi was playable, and he grabbed an assist trophy of himself, Papyrus could replace Waluigi as an assist trophy. But Papyrus will function identical to Waluigi's assist trophy. If Sans or Frisk gets released as the next DLC fighter (which would be upsetting to my point of view despite loving her/him), it would make sense for Papyrus to replace Waluigi's assist trophy when Waluigi is present in battle.

Since, Brawl, you can actually do this via modding. Just replace the assist trophy model with another model of a character who has a similar build. Here's an example.
View attachment 233730
I think you're on to something...though it would be a bit unfair if one dlc gets an assist trophy as well. Then again though, Hero as 4 alt costumes including Luminary.
 

OrpheusTelos

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#86
So here's an interesting question for 'yall: if Frisk were to get into Smash, do you think we'll get Deltarune content along with Undertale content? I'm honestly not 100% sure because DLC was most likely negotiated before Deltarune was released and Toby considers them two separate entities, but it wouldn't be too unreasonable for Nintendo to license content from that game if they're working closely with him. At most, I'd probably just expect a handful of non-remixed music tracks and possibly a spirit or two.
 

MajoraMoon

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#87
So here's an interesting question for 'yall: if Frisk were to get into Smash, do you think we'll get Deltarune content along with Undertale content? I'm honestly not 100% sure because DLC was most likely negotiated before Deltarune was released and Toby considers them two separate entities, but it wouldn't be too unreasonable for Nintendo to license content from that game if they're working closely with him. At most, I'd probably just expect a handful of non-remixed music tracks and possibly a spirit or two.
I wouldn't be surprised if we got Deltarune music like Don't Forget, World Revolving, Field of Hopes and Dreams, and Rude Buster. Maybe even a Kris alt for Frisk.
 
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#88
I think you're on to something...though it would be a bit unfair if one dlc gets an assist trophy as well. Then again though, Hero as 4 alt costumes including Luminary.
Although I understand, I didn't mean that the DLC would get an assist trophy, I was saying that if Waluigi were to be released as DLC after Frisk/Sans, Papyrus wouldn't be added as an assist trophy, but all he would do is to replace Waluigi's assist trophy (when Waluigi is in battle), but still have the same function.
 
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#89
So here's an interesting question for 'yall: if Frisk were to get into Smash, do you think we'll get Deltarune content along with Undertale content? I'm honestly not 100% sure because DLC was most likely negotiated before Deltarune was released and Toby considers them two separate entities, but it wouldn't be too unreasonable for Nintendo to license content from that game if they're working closely with him. At most, I'd probably just expect a handful of non-remixed music tracks and possibly a spirit or two.
i've actually thought about this before and i think if anything, we'd a kris-colored frisk costume and maybe something like rude buster as one of the songs. for spirits i feel like they would want to focus on undertale specifically, but it's not impossible.
 

OrpheusTelos

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#90
i've actually thought about this before and i think if anything, we'd a kris-colored frisk costume and maybe something like rude buster as one of the songs. for spirits i feel like they would want to focus on undertale specifically, but it's not impossible.
Yeah, I'm expecting a Kris alt for Frisk if we do get anything Deltarune related. I'm expecting a majority of the content to be Undertale related, with Deltarune's presence being relegated to two songs (if I had to guess, probably Field of Hopes and Dreams and Rude Buster), a Frisk alt, and maybe a Spirit of the Fun Gang/$!$? Squad/Lancer Fan Club if we're lucky. Not expecting anything too crazy like a Kris or Ralsei Mii Costume (though I would buy the latter in a heartbeat), but I wouldn't be too surprised if Deltarune got something since Sakurai didn't completely ignore the other Persona games with Joker's content. It all depends on if Toby is willing to play ball or if it was too soon to negotiate Deltarune rights.
 

Ornl

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#91
So, first things first, what Sakurai said on Miiverse does say that he's not a playable character. However, that doesn't mean that he won't be a playable character later. Also, I don't see your point about "the DLC was decided before January 13 2017" the tweets you showed me were posted on November 6th 2018. Which was months after the reactions of fans.
It's quite logical that Sakurai didn't declare the end of DLC planning before the announcement that there will be DLC. He did it 6 days later, only in English, to stop the harassment by Westerners. It's hard for me to translate, maybe it will be clearer for you by translating the source of short analysis that is in French.
 
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#92
Aren't you the same person who kept spamming the Joker thread with the same circular arguments about who is and isn't iconic? Please don't do the same thing here, because going into a character's support thread to ramble about why their character doesn't deserve to be playable is incredibly rude and accomplishes nothing.
I'm not going to rant about why I think Frisk merits to be an assist trophy instead of playable here.

Here are my quotes from another thread.
So here's the evolution of 3rd party playable character rules. Break the rule for once and it opens the floodgates for all.

You can only have one rep per company. Then add Ryu. The rule is removed.

You need to have a significant history with Nintnedo. Then add Cloud. The rule is removed.

You need to have a complete series. Then add Bayonetta. The rule is removed.

You can only have one rep per franchise. Then add Richter. The rule is removed.

You need to be significantly iconic. Then add Joker/Ren. The rule is removed.
Since I've previously mentioned that Joker/Ren is iconic, but he isn't as iconic as most of the other 3rd party playable characters (such as Sonic, Megaman, and Pacman), did Joker/Ren just open the floodgates for Frisk, Klonoa, Shantae, Quote (Cave Story), Shovel Knight, Lilac (freedom planet), Beck (mighty no 9), Jibanyan, Fatal Frame protagonist, etc.
 

MajoraMoon

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#93
I'm not going to rant about why I think Frisk merits to be an assist trophy instead of playable here.

Here are my quotes from another thread.


Since I've previously mentioned that Joker/Ren is iconic, but he isn't as iconic as most of the other 3rd party playable characters (such as Sonic, Megaman, and Pacman), did Joker/Ren just open the floodgates for Frisk, Klonoa, Shantae, Quote (Cave Story), Shovel Knight, Lilac (freedom planet), Beck (mighty no 9), Jibanyan, Fatal Frame protagonist, etc.
Don't mean to be rude, but I believe you are in the wrong thread. Y'see, this is a supporter thread. A supporter thread is where people talk about why a certain character SHOULD be in smash. You can make a thread about why a character SHOULDN'T be in smash. But don't do it in a supporter thread. I'm gonna quote the forum rules: "Know that going into a character's support thread and making negative comments will have different consequences than posting it in a general thread or for an unrelated character."
 
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#94
I'd like to be marked down as a supporter, but i need to say to the OP of the thread MajoraMoon MajoraMoon you should use They/Them pronouns when referring to Frisk, their gender isn't a mystery. They're Non-binary/Agender.
Literally everyone in the game refers to them as they/them and never once, as far as i know, questions whether they are a "boy or girl", no, they're neither. We should be respecting that and not be spreading false information by calling frisk "she" when that's not their pronouns or gender. It's Non-binary erasure when you do that, which isn't a good thing to do considering already the lack of Non-binary representation in a lot of media. Just cause it hasn't been outright said that Frisk is NB doesn't mean they aren't, it's made pretty obvious through the dialogue and interactions that they are NB, and we as fans and a fanbase should be acknowledging and respecting that.

Besides that though, i think there's potential for an interesting move set for Frisk, and maybe a mechanic involving the pacifist/genocide duality of the game could be worked in a unique way. Sans is admittedly the Undertale rep i would want first, but if he didn't get in, Frisk is definitely my number 2. I think they'd be great, and I'd say Undertale getting representation in smash wouldn't be uncalled for at all.
 
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TheCJBrine

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#95
Since I've previously mentioned that Joker/Ren is iconic, but he isn't as iconic as most of the other 3rd party playable characters (such as Sonic, Megaman, and Pacman), did Joker/Ren just open the floodgates for Frisk, Klonoa, Shantae, Quote (Cave Story), Shovel Knight, Lilac (freedom planet), Beck (mighty no 9), Jibanyan, Fatal Frame protagonist, etc.
Frisk is a videogame character.

This iconic crap has nothing to do with it. They may as well be iconic anyway since Undertale is among the iconic indies, and "the Human" is definitely iconic to the game as is their soul and the Skelebros. among the other main characters. We already have characters that are only iconic because of Smash, anyway.

edit: and it's okay if it's just your opinion, but it's definitely not all that matters, so it's not a fact or anything. Yes, most people would love for the floodgates to be open for a lot of characters, but nothing is really holding them back except for potential reasons we don't know and/or simply just other characters being chosen first, not really anything against the ones that aren't chosen.
 
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MajoraMoon

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#96
I'd like to be marked down as a supporter, but i need to say to the OP of the thread MajoraMoon MajoraMoon you should use They/Them pronouns when referring to Frisk, they're gender isn't a mystery. They're Non-binary/Agender.
Literally everyone in the game refers to them as they/them and never once, as far as i know, questions whether they are a "boy or girl", no, they're neither. We should be respecting that and not be spreading false information by calling frisk "she" when that's not their pronouns or gender. It's Non-binary erasure when you do that, which isn't a good thing to do considering already the lack of Non-binary representation in a lot of media. Just cause it hasn't been outright said that Frisk is NB doesn't mean they aren't, it's made pretty obvious through the dialogue and interactions that they are NB, and we as fans and a fanbase should be acknowledging and respecting that.
yea...sorry bout that. XD Kinda used to Frisk's female gender. Ok, I fixed it and you are now in the list. Welcome to the underground!
 
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#97
Frisk is a videogame character.

This iconic crap has nothing to do with it. They may as well be iconic anyway since Undertale is among the iconic indies, and "the Human" is definitely iconic to the game as is their soul and the Skelebros. among the other main characters. We already have characters that are only iconic because of Smash, anyway.

edit: and it's okay if it's just your opinion, but it's definitely not all that matters, so it's not a fact or anything. Yes, most people would love for the floodgates to be open for a lot of characters, but nothing is really holding them back except for potential reasons we don't know and/or simply just other characters being chosen first, not really anything against the ones that aren't chosen.
I understand, and also, the reason why i think Frisk, Joker/Ren, and Sans merit to be assist trophies and never playable, as of now, has nothing to do with them being less iconic than Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Ryu, Simon, Bomberman, Sora etc. Nor does it have anything to do with order of events. The real reason is because I don't want them to be playable, but still have them included in the game.

Right now, I think that Shovel Knight and Yuri are the only current 3rd party assist trophies who merit to be assist trophies and not playable as of now.
 
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Ornl

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#98
I would like this thread to discuss arguments against Frisk. Because the result could reflect collectively on what Nintendo could have done.

- West Indie? Yes, but with Mother and Touhou as main inspirations, and big success in Japan.
- Not iconic? It's relative. Whatever, Frisk is more popular than Ness and Lucas. The student surpassed the master.
- Toxic community? The one who generalizes and judges with gossip is undeniably wrong. Despite the violent opposition, the Undertale popularity continues and, every days, new fanart, fanfic, remix and cosplay appear.
- Impossible to spoiler? Sheik.
- No possible gameplay? Defensive-psychic/aggressive-physical duality, move as easily as a soul, references to the game...
 
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- Not iconic? It's relative. Whatever, Frisk is more popular than Ness and Lucas. The student surpassed the master.
In my quote above, when I said insignificantly iconic, I meant that Joker/Ren and Frisk are moderately/relatively iconic, but not highly iconic like Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Simon, Ryu, Sora, Bomberman, Reimu, etc.

That's a very good concern in my opinion, well Smash is a celebration of gaming, but we don't need to have every single videogame character be playable. And I just aforementioned that Joker/Ren may have triggered the pandora's box for those who are iconic, but not highly iconic. And I'm afraid that adding Frisk would clutter the roster with more of these types of characters.
 
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TheCJBrine

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In my quote above, when I said insignificantly iconic, I meant that Joker/Ren and Frisk are moderately/relatively iconic, but not highly iconic like Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Simon, Ryu, Sora, Bomberman, Reimu, etc.
I’d argue Frisk is at least on the same level as Reimu, if not higher. And from what I can tell, Reimu isn’t near the level those other characters are on, especially ones like Mega Man, Sonic, and Pac-Man.
 
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I’d argue Frisk is at least on the same level as Reimu, if not higher.
I think Reimu, Bomberman, and Kyo (King of Fighters) are all more iconic than Frisk, and they all have more games than Frisk, who doesn't even have a complete series. But that has nothing to do with why Frisk and Joker/Ren merit to be assist trophies instead of playable.

I'm not going to rant anymore about Joker/Ren, but is he really less iconic, than Bomberman, Sora, Reimu, etc?
 
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MajoraMoon

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I think Reimu, Bomberman, and Kyo (King of Fighters) are all more iconic than Frisk, and they all have more games than Frisk, who doesn't even have a complete series. But that has nothing to do with why Frisk and Joker/Ren merit to be assist trophies instead of playable.

I'm not going to rant anymore about Joker/Ren, but is he really less iconic, than Bomberman, Sora, Reimu, etc?
When you don't know who Reimu or Kyo are
 

THE SLOTH

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I'd like to be added to the list of supporters. My realistic DLC want is Phoenix Wright, my out there want is an Undertale rep, whoever it may be. Frisk would be a good representation of the game's duality, branching story and the influence of your actions. My biggest concern with Frisk possibly getting into Smash is the barrier of entry for Indie games as is. The face of modern indies, Shovel Knight, was considered during development and was put in as an Assist Trophy, and got some spirits too, but nothing playable. Undertale has its following, yes, but doesn't have nearly the following or development team Yacht Club Games does. Toby's mostly a one-man team, minus some help from some friends, but not even near a development team yet. But I'm still hopeful.

... And are we still using the iconicness argument for who "deserves" to get into Smash?

:ultness::ultjigglypuff::ultgnw::ultrob::ultduckhunt::ultkrool::ultpiranha:

These guys say otherwise.
 

Guynamednelson

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I don't know either of them very well.
This is proof that you need to stop parading around your arbitrary tier list of iconicness.

I do know Kyo very well, which is why I know he'd get screwed over if the roster was an iconicness measuring contest.
 
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Ornl

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In my quote above, when I said insignificantly iconic, I meant that Joker/Ren and Frisk are moderately/relatively iconic, but not highly iconic like Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Simon, Ryu, Sora, Bomberman, Reimu, etc.

That's a very good concern in my opinion, well Smash is a celebration of gaming, but we don't need to have every single videogame character be playable. And I just aforementioned that Joker/Ren may have triggered the pandora's box for those who are iconic, but not highly iconic. And I'm afraid that adding Frisk would clutter the roster with more of these types of characters.
This isn't legitimate to compare Undertale with old characters. In addition, Undertale has an advantage because Sakurai is looking for newer characters: "Smash tends to have characters from older series. But just old characters would not make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series."

Match up Google Trends
Google Trends is a measure of popularity, although it isn't enough and can't be completely representative.
- Undertale VS Mega Man : Undertale wins.
- Undertale VS Megaman : Undertale wins.
- Undertale VS Street Fighter : Undertale wins (except in Japan).
- Undertale VS Castlevania : Undertale wins.
- Undertale VS Bomberman : Undertale wins.
- Undertale VS Kingdom Hearts : Undertale wins (except in Japan).
- Undertale VS King of Fighter : Undertale wins.
- Undertale VS Touhou Project : Undertale wins (except in Japan).
Persona is more popular in Google research than Undertale. So Persona is more popular in Google research than these 8 match-ups.
 
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This isn't legitimate to compare Undertale with old characters. In addition, Undertale has an advantage because Sakurai is looking for newer characters: "Smash tends to have characters from older series. But just old characters would not make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series."

Match up Google Trends
Google Trends is a measure of popularity, although it isn't enough and can't be completely representative.
- Undertale VS Mega Man : Undertalewin x23.
- Undertale VS Megaman : Undertalewin x2.
- Undertale VS Street Fighter : Undertale win.
- Undertale VS Castlevania : Undertale win.
- Undertale VS Bomberman : Undertale win.
- Undertale VS Kingdom Hearts : Undertale win (except in Japan).
- Undertale VS King of Fighter : Undertale win.
- Undertale VS Touhou Project : Undertale win (except in Japan).
Persona is more popular in Google research than Undertale. So Persona is more popular in Google research than these 8 match-ups.
Also, just because a character is popular doesn't mean they are highly iconic, or merit to be playable. Even less popular characters can still make better additions.
 
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TheCJBrine

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Also, just because a character is popular doesn't mean they are highly iconic, or merit to be playable. Even less popular characters can still make better additions.
What do you think “iconic” means?

It’s not the same as popularity, no, but some characters in Smash already went against this idea as they’re only iconic now because of Smash, and hugely popular games tend to be iconic in their own way...
 

MajoraMoon

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I support the idea of Frisk in Smash because it means we get those tasty tunes in Smash to duke it out with. Also Undertale representation. ;3
Thanks for the support Ralsei. May the fluffy boy live on! Also, I love that signature; I just rewatched Spider-Verse last night XD
 

Ornl

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Match up Undertale Versus with Google Trends (update)
Google Trends is a measure of popularity, although it isn't enough and can't be completely representative.
Veterans
- VS Sonic / Metal Gear / Final Fantasy / Persona / Dragon Quest : Undertale loses.
- VS Pac-Man : Undertale loses (except in Japan).
- VS Mega Man : Undertale wins.
- VS Megaman : Undertale wins.
- VS Street Fighter : Undertale wins (except in
Japan).
- VS Bayonetta : Undertale wins.
- VS Castlevania : Undertale wins.
- VS Banjo-Kazooie : Undertale wins.
Non-Fighters
- VS
Monster Hunter : Undertale loses.
- VS Bomberman : Undertale wins.
- VS Project Zero : Undertale wins.
- VS Shantae : Undertale wins.
- VS Shovel Knight : Undertale wins.
- VS Rayman : Undertale wins.
- VS Tales of : Undertale wins (except in
Japan).
- VS Tekken : Undertale wins (except in
Japan).
Others
- VS
Resident Evil / Minecraft / Halo / Assassin's Creed : Undertale loses.
- VS Halo : Undertale loses (except in Japan).
- VS Assassin's Creed : Undertale loses (except in Japan).

- VS Devil May Cry : Undertale wins.
- VS Ace Attorney : Undertale wins.
- VS Digimon : Undertale wins.
- VS Kingdom Hearts : Undertale wins (except in
Japan).
- VS Tomb Raider : Undertale wins.
- VS NieR : Undertale wins.
- VS Ninja Gaiden : Undertale wins.
- VS Layton : Undertale wins.
- VS Crash Bandicoot : Undertale wins.
- VS DOOM : Undertale wins.
- VS Touhou Project : Undertale wins (except in
Japan).
 
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CommanderZaktan

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I think I'm on board with Frisk being in Smash. I think the trailer will be like Ness being in trouble and Frisk shows up to save the day. The classic route will be the neutral route of Undertale; Zelda as Toriel, Captain Falcon as Papyrus, ZS Samus as Undyne, Sheik as Muffit, ROB as Mettaton, Ganondorf as Asgore, and Marx as Omega Flowey.
 

MajoraMoon

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I think I'm on board with Frisk being in Smash. I think the trailer will be like Ness being in trouble and Frisk shows up to save the day. The classic route will be the neutral route of Undertale; Zelda as Toriel, Captain Falcon as Papyrus, ZS Samus as Undyne, Sheik as Muffit, ROB as Mettaton, Ganondorf as Asgore, and Marx as Omega Flowey.
That trailer idea sounds a lot like Lucas' dlc trailer. The classic mode route is very clever though. Welcome to the crew!
 
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CommanderZaktan

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That trailer idea sounds a lot like Lucas' dlc trailer. The classic mode route is very clever though. Welcome to the crew!
Or maybe sounded like the "leaked" trailer that people say it's Giygas or Porky. In fact, if that part of the trailer was real and intentionally to be a rumor/leak, then gg
 
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What LV do you start at the beginning of the match? If I had to guess, it would be at LV 50 since it's the middle ground between Pacifist and Genocide. However the problem with LV 50 is that Frisk hasn't committed any violence yet and if you're at LV 0, there is no way to gain LV as Frisk in your words is a Pacifist at that point and there is no way for their attacks to gain any LV.

LV being gained from dealing damage makes it too easy to gain LV and from what I've seen, your moveset options are limited to pretty much using Neutral and Down Special if you're trying to become a pacifist and dealing damage will remove all the work you put into removing the LV.
You start with ZERO LV, just like in the actual game. The moveset is built around really having two ways to play the character, either you can just ignore the LV meter entirely and be somewhat of a glass-cannon rushdown character that is really easy to kill/edgeguard (due to the lack of recovery) or you can put in the effort to keep your LV as low as possible, letting you be more of a well-rounded character.

As I said in the moveset, when your LV is at 0%, smash attacks won't raise your LV, the hug command grab will never raise your LV, etc. The LV mechanic is basically a way of preventing you from being too aggressive. If you get a really good chain of hits and do about 40% to your opponent, you can either choose to edgeguard them and keep up the pressure, or use SAVE/hug to get rid of the bad karma you just wracked up. It all depends on how you want to play.


It doesn't seem that there is any long term benefits to being either a Pacifist or a Killer. I feel people will be more inclined to try and stay neutral as possible. Being a Pacifist is too difficult to reach with the limited movesets that lowers your LV. Being a Killer slows down your mobility and dodging which will more or less get annoying to deal with because you will feel as you're being punished for playing the game.

I know you're limiting the movement speed and dodging from Genocide mode to discourage players from going the genocide route but not only does that again punish players for playing the game properly, it also doesn't make sense in the games because there is no reduced movement speed in a genocide run.
Having high LV doesn't reduce your movement speed, it reduces your acceleration and dodge frame data. It basically is a way of forcing you to keep being aggressive, because your defensive options are made worse. Your max run speed and max air speed are still the same, but you can't weave in and out nearly as much.

It doesn't "punish the player for playing properly," because some of their moves are also made a lot stronger with higher LV. It's basically a character of resource management. You can either play the game hyper-aggressively (and have a terrible recovery with bad dodges) or play the game strategically, making good use of your strong command grab and keeping your LV as low as possible, for a potentially much higher reward.

If it helps explain things a bit better, at max LOVE, Frisk plays kinda like Little Mac with good aerials but without super armor (great frame data, easy to kill), and at 0% LOVE, Frisk plays like a more well-rounded character that has an insanely strong command grab.

This is a move that punishes you for playing Smash Bros properly. No other character limits your options for attacking the opponent and from your idea of LV gained based on damage, it can be too easy to get high LV and then lose because you were playing too good. Couple that with the mobility loss from the Genocide mode effectively makes you worthless at recovering.

The Genocide mode should have a different method of recovering.
Again, if you want to have a good recovery, then you have to manage your LOVE well. Use SAVE and the command grab more often and you'll never have to worry about your recovery failing you. Frisk's recovery sucks at higher LV because they're able to do crazy amounts of damage.

A good move that rewards pacifism, neutral and genocide forms. Not much else to say about it.
Thanks!

LV 0 seems like a nice reward for being a pacifist with how difficult it is to be one. However being at LV 100 with this move seems pointless because you can lose all of your LV by being KO'd or simply self destructing and there doesn't seem to be any reason to use this move at that point. It's better to just keep at it until you're eventually KO'd. I know where you're going with this but the move should be replaced with something else when your at LV 100 that benefits Genocide mode.
Again, the point is to make Genocide mode unfavorable. I could maybe replace it with something else at 100 LV to force the player to never leave genocide once they reach it, but if I did it would be to something useless. Genocide Frisk is supposed to play hyper-aggressive and brute force with superior frame data. All of the special moves (besides shank) are SUPPOSED to be terrible in genocide mode.

It seems like Genocide Frisk will act as more of a tank with the movement speed and dodging reduced but could end up being very easy to combo.
Movement speed isn't reduced, and the healing of SAVE is not going to be very good at all. Genocide frisk would feel more like Little Mac than anything.

Overall I think this moveset is a little too complicated and at a lot of times hinders the player for playing the game normally. I think a good moveset is one that keeps things simple, works with Smash Bros and stays true to the games as much as possible. If something doesn't work or makes things complicated, think of something else that will work better.

The idea of having multiple attacks for all three alignments seems like it would take a lot of work and balancing to have the character ready for Smash. Then again, the pacifist/genocide mechanic of the Undertale games should be a crucial part to staying true to the game the character appears in.
I think you're over-complicating how simple this moveset actually is. Hero's moveset is more complicated than this, each move having a different amount of MP cost you have to keep track of, each of the spells being completely different, etc. etc. As far as the 'multiple attacks' thing, I'd just have to point out that Joker and Bayonetta do the same thing, to a much less intuitive degree in the latter's case.

I'll try and come up with a moveset for Frisk and see if I can try and make Frisk work, despite if I think they have no moveset potential. I'll post it to the Frisk thread since I'm deviating well away from Geno with this.
I brought your post here since I wanted to talk more about it.
 
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