Frigate Orpheon: Neutral or not?

[wazgood]

I like CP on it. It can kill people.

rofl CP also stands for child porn

 

[Someone7]

No. It creates a wall, but next to a moving platform, so its only temporary and impossible to perform wall
infinities on.

Long enough to get about 90% with Fox, as I just tried it.

In any case, I think it's a really stupid stage.

 

[TehBo49]

I think it could be considered neutral. It's pretty borderline.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Whats so neutral about it? the layout is pretty normal, but the non grabable ledge and stage flipping isn't. Its just not as simple as Battlefield, or Smashville.

 

[NoobCake]

I would go with Counterpick, based on many reasons already stated in this thread (i.e. change of stage, somewhat-awkward flip), but either way, I don't think it warrants a ban.

 

[KSUkid]

I'd say it's a steady counterpick. There's always the issue with gimping the right side of the first form, and it's a little difficult to approach the middle of the second if someone effectively camps there. However, the only wall on the stage is very temporary and anyone who doesn't want to be there doesn't have to go. The flip only catches people if they're either under or just to the side of the stage. As long as you're above it, or on top of it, you're not going to have issues without your opponent helping.

 

[Leeto]

counterpick. If it flips in the middle of a slow recovery then it's certain death for that character with no effort put into edgeguarding by the other player

 

[Falln07]

I agree if your stupid enough to get killed by the flip after siren goes off then you deserve to die. it's neutral.

 

[Megavitamins]

Counter pick, just because the flip is random and can stop combat directly. It also hurts a few characters really bad, such as IC's.

 

[Airgemini]

Definately Counterpick.
The flip affects some characters greatly depending on their position.

 

[MysticKenji]

I agree if your stupid enough to get killed by the flip after siren goes off then you deserve to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lb1xOlL1Ek

>__________>

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

My favorite stage in the game. I can see both sides of the arguments. Remember that there is more than 1 distinct warning for the stage flip. Not only does the siren last for 3-8 seconds, the camera zooms out about half a second before it actually rotates. Just because the stage can gimp Olimar's recovery doesn't really affect it's position. The randimly spawning Shy Guys in Yoshi's Story can ruin Ness's recovery without warning in Melee. I wouuld prefer it to stay CP, but if it becomes neutral, so be it. Practice on the stage to learn how to see the camera zoom. It's how you learn Mute City's pattern in Melee.

 

[G J Cod]

It's not neutral if someone dies when the stage flips.....trust me, it happens.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

To quote myself in a similar topic...

As a starting stage? It doesnt really fit the bill of relative neutrality among characters. In the first transition, you have two things to watch out for; a temporary wall and a ledge impossible to grab. You obviously can't infinite on the wall because the platform rises, but G&W's Dtilt can certainly rack up a good deal of damage and hit with a finisher in the time for it to go make to the middle position. When it's up, its incredibly hard for characters to recover. You cant grab the edge, so you must land on ground, or on the upper platform, meaning it's incredibly easy to ledgeguard. Also, it's a very bad situation for characters with only tether recoveries.

The transition is also a problem. It puts many people in an awkward position, whether they end up under the stage or far out to the sides. Oh, and this scatters all of Olimar's pikmin, making this transition almost like a free stock.

The second part isnt so bad, and the only real issue I see with this might be the moving platforms off stage. If you use a get up attack or roll on this and it pulls offscreen, you're dead. If an opponent grabs you and already has the stock advantage, he can easily carry you off with himself.

So all in all, it's a great counterpick, one of my favorites, but it doesnt seem to be a quality neutral stage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's neutral when the stage doesn't rotate. At least the siren gives you a warning about the stage rotation.

 

[Qzzy]

can you guys hear anything, including the siren, when playing on at a tourney or with a lot of loud friends?

 

[ike/marth smasher]

you dont have to hear it, you can see the yellow lights

 

[Wander]

Regardless of whether or not you can see the flip coming, it still catches the player off guard and can lead to unintended, unfair KOs. Not often enough and not drastic enough to warrant a ban, but combined with the ungrabbable edge and the moving platforms that can drag you right off the screen, it's most certainly not neutral. Again, counterpick.

 

[Ulevo]

Anyone using the excuse that it flips to vote for counter pick:

1) How does that single out any of the cast? I'm quite sure it effects every character equally, which is the opposite intent of a counter pick.

2) It is very noticeable, both visually and through auditory means. It is also very avoidable. If you don't see it coming, you're not paying attention. This just in: you need to pay attention in competitive play. If you don't, I suggest you go into training mode and practice your leet attention skilz.

Now that those lame arguments are out of the way, it becomes a question if that one ledge becomes reason enough to vote for counter pick because of the characters it effects, which is Ivysaur and Olimar. (I personally believe it effects most characters absent of ludicrous recovery). Lets also take note that PK Trainer has the option to switch out Ivysaur too. I myself think it is no more of a disadvantage than fighting Falco on Final Destination, and would like to see it legalized.

 

[Qzzy]

I don't think it's easily noticeable. I've had almost no problem spotting interferences from other stages past and present except this one. And i don't think i'm alone on that. That matter is subjective.

 

[Heavenly Cloud]

Counterpick. The flip isnt really harmful but changes the entire stage... hardly neutral IMO, and the right side of the stage cant be grabbed.

 

[peeup]

There is a possibility that you will get stuck underneath the stage, and the right side of the stage doesn't have a ledge, so characters with tethers are kinda screwed. Sure, it gives a clear warning before it switches, but if you're recovering when it happens, it doesn't really matter. I say counterpick.

Edit: Ulevo's thoughts are persuasive, but even falco could recover on both sides of FD, so its not entirely the same. I do, though, understand his argument. Could somebody think of something inbetween counterpick and neutral? ;-)

 

[chckn]

Anyone using the excuse that it flips to vote for counter pick:

1) How does that single out any of the cast? I'm quite sure it effects every character equally, which is the opposite intent of a counter pick.

2) It is very noticeable, both visually and through auditory means. It is also very avoidable. If you don't see it coming, you're not paying attention. This just in: you need to pay attention in competitive play. If you don't, I suggest you go into training mode and practice your leet attention skilz.

Now that those lame arguments are out of the way, it becomes a question if that one ledge becomes reason enough to vote for counter pick because of the characters it effects, which is Ivysaur and Olimar. (I personally believe it effects most characters absent of ludicrous recovery). Lets also take note that PK Trainer has the option to switch out Ivysaur too. I myself think it is no more of a disadvantage than fighting Falco on Final Destination, and would like to see it legalized.

Firstly there is no way to change out characters if your pt in time before it flips if you're already trying to recover. With that said, I feel that it is a fairly nuetral stage. No serious hazards besides the flip and lots of fighting area. Despite this, IMO the flip and how it effects olimar and ivysaurs recovery is enough already to make it a cp. Neutral stages are supposed to be neurtal to all characters and despite how it only effects olimar and ivy, I feel it is enough to make it a cp.

 

[habaker91]

Anyone using the excuse that it flips to vote for counter pick:

1) How does that single out any of the cast? I'm quite sure it effects every character equally, which is the opposite intent of a counter pick.

I would think that the flip gives an advantage to aerial characters, as it forces everyone to get into the air...and in any case tether characters get wrecked by that ledge you can't grab

 

[chckn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOBOJMQwWYY 1:47 is why this can't be neutral

 

[lethminite]

fact: neutral and simple are not the same word.

Question: does the stage really provide enough advantage to characters to warrant it being counter-pick?

As has been said, FD gives falco the advantage, just not a really large one,and the lip allows lucario to do some cool recovery tricks, that doesn't make it counter-pick.


of the video's shown where someone dies, most of the time it just looks like an avoidable mistake on the behalf of the person who dies, or like the would have most likely died anyway.

for example. the video with olimar getting ko-ed then ko-ed again by the flip was avoidable, but double jumping, heading to the other end of the stage, or even sitting on his stand for a sec, since it was 1/2 way through warning about the flip.

the pikachu, i'll give 1/2 credit for, it is very unlikely to for see that happening, however, should people play on it more, they would be able too, and either use ^b earlier or sit back off the screen while it flips then recover, he had plenty of hight to work with.

now the stage can kill people, but it only does so too people that are ignorant of it.

the things that should be asked, is how repeatable that G&W downthrow is, and if there is any solution for tethers.


i'd say make it neutral, but keep a close eye on it.

it's a complex stage, but it's neutral.

 

[Desire]

ppl say neutral,, i say No,, flipping stage..not cool

 

[ConnorTheKid]

it's borderline imo. it's the flipping that makes things situational and borderline =/

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's a counterpick imo. (I could have sworn I posted in this thread before... o_O) The lack of a right ledge to grab means that you're instantly at a disadvantage while recovering regardless of which character you are compared to if the ledge was grabbable, and if the platform decides to not cooperate, you're probably screwed depending on what character you are, period. The stage flipping can be seen coming a mile away and IMO isn't a huge deal (just jump and you avoid being displaced), but it's still a disrupting factor in the sense that you need to jump or suffer a positioning disadvantage. If you happen to be recovering when the siren goes off...

It's a great stage, but it's nowhere near neutral.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

It's counter pick, its design can make it be a neutral but the flipping is what keeps it from being neutral. But its a great counterpick stage.

 

[MojoMan]

I would call it neutral, because pokemon stadium is considered neutral, and it disrupts combat, too. Also, the flip is easily dodged or avoided.

 

[chckn]

I would call it neutral, because pokemon stadium is considered neutral, and it disrupts combat, too. Also, the flip is easily dodged or avoided.

pokemon stadium is not considered nuetral

 

[MysticKenji]

I would call it neutral, because pokemon stadium is considered neutral

Where have you been for the past week or so?

 

[Ban3]

I would call it neutral, because pokemon stadium is considered neutral, and it disrupts combat, too. Also, the flip is easily dodged or avoided.

flip cannot be dodged or avoided. im not even gonna comment on the first part though

 

[Grandeza]

pokemon stadium is not considered nuetral

yes it is.

edit- where have i been. If anything, it's debatable. The thread has a vote of 25-24. Pretty even both ways.

 

[habaker91]

pokemon stadium =/= neutral, check out the offical stage discussion board

 

[DKKountry]

I'll go with counter-pick. Some people have their disadvantages here, not enough to ban it, but enough to not be neutral.