Frame Advantage

[Bl@ckChris]

Do many people think about the neutral position as a fight for gaining frame advantage? I've started to think of things that way, and finding ways to put ganon in frame advantage usually involve counter hits or a CC of some sort. I think the great thing about falco is that he can gain frame advantage from almost any part of the stage.

thinking of the game not only as space control, but gaining the frame advantage could open up some ideas to advance ones style.

discuss?

 

[onionchowder]

Falco can gain frame advantage from any part of the stage? What?

What do you mean by "frame advantage"? I thought the term had to do with shield stun and stuff like that.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

being in any position where your opponent is stunned and you are not, or being in a position where you can act faster with a better option than your opponent generally can. being in shield puts you in a terrible position framewise, because unless you can shine/nair (and i mean a good one) out of shield, options are tough to come by in a quick manner.

falco's lasers can either put you in stun while he approaches, or put you in shield while he approaches. powershielding allows a defender to stay in a relatively neutral frame game, and potentially can put the frame advantage in their hands, but a fearful/careful falco can get around such things.

holding frame advantage is one reason why some people, no matter what character, will jab on shield. it will catch people trying to get back to a neutral frame game when they get out of shield, and instead they get jabbed for trying it. the ledgegame is usually advantage to the person on stage. the person on the ledge has to fight back to get to neutral frames, but if you understand their options, such things can be prevented.

it's just an alternate way of looking at the game. you can either look at it in space, look at it through time, or look at it in the full realm of the game as the entire space-time continuum of a match.

most tend to look at it through space though. it's the easier to make sense of, as it's more concrete.

edit: i could also be high. but looking at things in this manner makes sense to me, and i feel it's worth a discussion.

 

[Pikaville]

Falco sure does have many options available to him that's for sure.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Frame advantage depends on knowing a lot of shenaniganry

like how long it takes for people to get to the ground from a SH or how quickly they can react to you then run over to you to punish your landing frames

or how many frames their offstage jump will take so you can decide how many frames it takes to get to the edge at just the right time to use all of your invincibility frames most effectively




.....


it's not impossible, but it takes quite a bit of taking notes/studying before you can really apply it in-game.


that said, it's a worthwhile way to look at the game if you have the dedication to look up such required information. =)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, there's certainly the situation specific form of frame advantage as you've described. that would indeed be the optimal way of utilizing it. i guess that's the "robotic" way people assume m2k used to play.

generally, i'm thinking of it less in quantizing it (although as i said, that would be the best way TO use it) and more of the quality of actually having the frame advantage, whatever it is, in the neutral position. of course, the better the frame advantage, the better your punishment and options of using that frame advantage are.

i thought of this in conjunction with my other thread about peach's float. the falco/peach matchup in the neutral position exists generally with peach at the annoying float height, and falco waiting for her *** to get back down. the space they control doesn't overlap usually, and there is no frame advantage on either side due to the evasion of lasers in the float height. until one of them either commits spacially or creates a frame advantage (using a laser as falco, or using the fact that falco committed to a laser that he shouldn't have as peach) then the match can end up at a standstill.

quantifying such frames in each situation would certainly be an amazing tool, but whether you're +3 or +7 or +9 in a situation, as long as you hold the frame advantage, and you know your opponent may be edgy to get back to the neutral position, new options open up.

such things are also why armada's defense was so intriguing. he deals with being at a frame disadvantage very well (stays in shield longer than most would be comfortable with), and finds his way back to neutral as well as anyone.

 

[Dr Peepee]

This still means you gotta do your research for whatever each character can do haha.

But sure, if you wanna break down matchups further by first going into main strategies and then by frame advantage for each strategy, you totally could. You just have to remember that any "optimal" strategy will be used until it feels countered and then less optimal techniques will be used against you. The only way to truly prepare for tricks is to get exposure and learn frames for all moves and then their combinations, much like if you wanted to learn regular strategy and how to counter other moves anyway.

This is a good perspective to use though because it is quite concrete and fairly easy to work out in your head/on your own.

A disadvantage may be that if you misunderstand any frame data you come across or someone tricks you, then you might have a hard time understanding where exactly you went wrong. As with anything else, don't rely too heavily on this method of understanding the game but use it to supplement your existing understanding.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

agreed. working through the full space time of the game will be important. this kind of thing would rely heavily on guys like sveet, strong bad, magus, and a few other select knowledgeable frame by frame people. but most character threads have a breakdown of moves in a frame by frame, hitbox by hitbox manner, so if I, or someone else, really wanted to, they could seek those for a start and then continue on in applying them within the realm of space that the game has in battle.

I know for myself, i'd definitely have to reconfirm some jumpsquat things and how soon people can act, and what it really takes to shine oos, and for peach how fast she can dj oos, and where she can get a hitbox out (cause that bair oos hurt me every time, and i didn't understand very well how you were getting hit by it in terms of space OR time) so it's definitely a big undertaking.

any other opinions on the subject? (of course kevin, we can continue our discussion until people decide they're cool enough to chime in)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Be sure to look at m2k's/superdoodleman's frame data compendiums if you need to know more stuff than those threads can provide. =)

 

[Mahone]

I think this a stupid way to look at the neutral game

 

[Bl@ckChris]

do you prefer the method of controlling space, or something else entirely?

 

[Mahone]

To be honest i just havent understood anything uve said in this thread... You dont have to explain though, idc, i was just messing with u

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i figured you were, but i am legitimately interested in your viewpoint regarding this concept. i think in a simple sense, you can think of it as how much it takes to commit to any action. if your goal is to get your opponent to commit to something laggy, then that can be looked at as gaining the frame advantage. it feels slightly different than baiting your opponent to commit too deep spatially and punishing for that.

the whole "time space" thing doesn't have to make sense, but hopefully the above statement does.

 

[Mahone]

I guess i dont understand how "the frame advantage" is different from baiting

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's not. however you look at putting someone in a disadvantage framewise doesn't really matter, but the fact is that it happened.

I used to think of baiting people as entering their space and making them act, or changing my space to adjust for their action. I think another way of baiting people is to find ways of putting them in lag and then leave them unable to catch up with you.

 

[Mahone]

How can ganon put them in lag without baiting them?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lets say falco is approaching with obvious lasers. i powershield his approaching laser into my grab. you can look at it as i baited his laser and i punished him for trying to take the space within my powershield grab range, or you can look at it as with this powershielded laser i gained the frame advantage in the situation by being able to act out of my powershield faster than he can act out of getting hit by the laser.

one side looks at the action of baiting, the other side looks at why i'm even able to punish in the situation. Outcomes are the same, but it's just a matter of perspective.

 

[Mahone]

oh ok, i see

 

[ph00tbag]

It's better to think of the neutral game in terms of positioning and footsies. Frame advantage plays into that, to some degree, but there's enough nuance there that it's better to just develop strong game sense through experience than it is to learn all of the possible frame timings, knockback, shield pushback, hitstun, blockstun, hit lag...

Basically, play a lot, and you'll get a good sense of what moves are safe on hit, block and whiff on what characters on what parts of which stages. It's easier in the long run than going through SDM's frame data and memorizing the whole thing.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so...do you think this view holds any useful meaning?

edit: it's certainly easier to look through experience and say "this works" and "this doesn't work" but i think a way to get some of the best and fullest punishment stems from putting people in successively greater frame disadvantages and hit them harder for being uncomfortable. This all stemmed from rewatching the main good combo i had in a set with eggm at zenith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeLLkt1iQ7U @ 3:15

the dtilt gave me frame advantage and put eggm on the run. i caught him trying to reset the advantage with one of those runoff rising bairs. dsmash is a really hard punish, especially on someone with no double jump, but it takes a lot of frames to set up. you can call it a bait and punish if you want, or you can say i caught him trying to reset the frame advantage when i clearly had it. from there, the combo adds up to the kill.

double edit: sometimes a certain bait isn't enough for a certain punish. i think that's when it's important to understand frames and what you can and can't get out of a situation.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

imho this is a great way of looking at most fighting games.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sounds like a wordier way of explaining how to get a larger sequence of attacks or brainstorming ways on how to deal with stuff.

 

[KingofCereal]

I think controlling space is a way more logical way of playing the game. If you know the game so well that you can analyze space by frame data then you are a very quick computing machine indeed. And probably need a girlfriend.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I think it's a good idea. The only thing I'd add is I don't think you need to know the exact frames, you could just as easily get a feel for everything through playing a lot.

It's like brewing tea. In order to make a good cup of tea, you need to have the water at the right temperature, and you need to brew it for the right amount of time (This all depends on what type of tea you're brewing, kind of like how everything in Melee depends on the situation). You could use a thermometer to get the water to the exact temperature you want it at, and use a timer for how long you steep the leaves. Or, you could just do what feels right, and ignore a thermometer and timer. Both approaches are perfectly acceptable, and both work very well. It all depends on the person.

For those interested, I brew my tea by feel, rather than using any equipment.

Also, why is it that most of this topic is NC and Honorary NC (Mahone) people?

 

[oukd]

I think controlling space is a way more logical way of playing the game. If you know the game so well that you can analyze space by frame data then you are a very quick computing machine indeed. And probably need a girlfriend.

^ It's not so much about 'computing frame data' as it is knowing how your options/counters compare to your opponents head-on. Gaining the frame advantage simply means your decision gives you a window of opportunity for punishing your opponent.

I think the simplest and most common example is probably CC vs approach. Typically CC gives the CC'er frame advantage since the opponent attacking the CC'er will be in lag from an attack, but it only works until a certain % until the CC'er starts getting stunned (or not at all against certain options like grab...or Falco's dair, which puts you explicitly in frame disadvantage )

I feel like the term is used more often in traditional fighters since they play a lot more explicitly RPS than Melee. Personally, I think visualizing spacing is a lot more fundamental to Melee's neutral game than option vs option since good spacing is essentially an option that 'beats' all options, but it is pretty helpful in defensive/offensive game (again imo).

I hope I interpreted your idea of frame advantage right <_<

EDIT: in your example of you vs eggm it's true that he was in stun/lag longer than you were but you weren't actually in reach for a punish at that point...looking at it from the fox's position the bair was to cover a hypothetical sh fair on your part, which also could have been avoided with other options/spacing. In that instance you reduced his options more thanks to positional advantage than frame advantage, but you entered that instance through a frame advantage scenario.

I agree obtaining frame advantage 'situations' is good especially for conditioning/understanding habits...although some players feel very unpressured the moment they escape into neutral, so it doesn't always work.

I edited this post way too much...

 

[Strong Badam]

Thinking of the neutral position in terms of frame advantage doesn't particularly work in most cases. You can't quantify how disjointed something is, or how much risk there is to something, or how much reward something gives on hit. Additionally, frame advantage is most useful when you have a limited set of options, where the fastest is generally the most desirable quality. In the neutral position, all or at most of a character's options are available or at least under consideration. It's far easier to get a feel for more abstract concepts in an actual match e.g. how much space you're controlling or how well you're paying attention to your opponents patterns. When you're DDing you're not really thinking things like "Okay when I short hop fair a shield I have X frame advantage"... you tailor your playstyle ahead of time based on what you know.

I don't have a good conclusion for this post and I'm bored of writing.

 

[Deleted member]

this is a stupid way to look at the neutral game.

*pound* @ mahone.

 

[DerfMidWest]

uhm, why can't you look at it in terms of both positioning and frame advantage?
I see no reason why you can't use both, ideally, that is what you would do...
unless I'm misunderstanding something?

 

[Deleted member]

uhm, why can't you look at it in terms of both positioning and frame advantage?
I see no reason why you can't use both, ideally, that is what you would do...
unless I'm misunderstanding something?

once you're an experienced player at this game, the frame traps you'd be using with your advantage, or the tactics you'd discard, are both the standard level of play. Basically no one is going to get past being a tier 4 player focusing on frame advantage the way it's described in this thread. no one cares about being a tier 4 player.

the neutral game (where you gain all of your leads on the margin) are focused on positioning in melee. you can actually be quite sloppy with your timings and still yield a significant lead with good positioning instead, and positioning ends up being the more important factor in the neutral game.

thus, this (frame advantage) is a stupid way to look at the neutral game. it's a much weaker and less relevant tool than the alternative.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't see why it needs to be an alternative...
I think positioning takes priority, but why can't you do both?

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't analyze your frame advantage in real time.
You can analyze your positioning in real time.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You can't analyze your frame advantage in real time.
You can analyze your positioning in real time.

That's why you get a feel for frame advantage, rather than thinking of it in terms of numbers. If you can do it based off intuition and what feels right, you can analyze it in real time.

 

[Strong Badam]

Then it's not really frame advantage.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I disagree. While you're perceiving it in a different way, it's still frame advantage. I think a lot of players do it subconsciously and don't realize it. Maybe you won't be as accurate as you would if you think about it in terms of numbers, but it's better than doing nothing.

Think of it like a Calculus test. You could spend 90 minutes on it, and get 100% of the questions right. This is taking longer, but thinking about it in terms of numbers, and being accurate. Or, you could spend 30 minutes on it, and only get 95% of the questions right. This is going much faster, and not as accurate, but still getting the job done. It's what you need to do when playing Melee, unless your brain is insanely fast.

 

[DerfMidWest]

oh I think i misunderstood then, I though he meant like doing it off of intuition.
my mistake.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

No, I'm pretty sure he meant doing it off intuition as well. Maybe not at first, but gradually learning the intuition.

If I'm wrong, and he didn't mean that, then this is a terrible idea.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i just meant it as a concept. most people think of the game in terms of space (as demonstrated by umbreon) and rarely in terms of time. but the game flows and progresses in both ways, so i felt like it should be useful to think of the game in both ways, and therefore from the neutral position, be able to gain an advantage in both ways.

the time aspect to melee surely doesn't exist in a vacuum, and getting hits is certainly easier to see in terms of space.

it's also interesting to consider how some baits work. i know i use IASA frames to bait people into trying to approach when they really shouldn't. as ganon, my upsmash looks like a really laggy move, but i can jab after it fairly quickly after the hitbox is over. i feel like a bait like this is more time based, because i'm not in as much a frame disadvantage than it seems i should be.

 

[oukd]

Doesn't ganon do that with a bunch of other moves other than usmash? I thought that was the main reason why move > jab is so common in the ganon metagame simply because of how misleadingly slow his options look...but once the opponent knows his general options (frames on all his moves, etc) it's harder to catch people with it.

Also I'm pretty sure people are interpreting the term 'frame advantage' very differently and just having disagreements over semantics...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well yeah, things like fair jab on shield work in general because people assume you can just do things out of shield to fair, when you really can't. of course, after the jab, he's vulnerable as all hell (i know from experience, but the frames confirm) so once you know the jab is coming, then you can just stay in shield. of course, if i condition you to stay in shield, then fair -> grab becomes an option, although a falco (and other characters with good quick oos options) probably has the frames to shine oos that option.

good ol rock paper scissors.

but yeah, as ganon i have a habit of putting myself in a certain amount of lag that is either less time than i hope you expect, or farther away than i hope you expect. i feel like if it's both, it'll be too obvious lol, but if it's neither, you'll just hit me for trying.

 

[knightpraetor]

agree with mahone, think in terms of baits rather than frames because a 2 frame advantage doesn't mean jack since your reaction time is still over 10 frames. it only matters if you intend to instantly do a move with the frame advantage you had. if you intend to instantly do a move it must be some form of shield pressure or you are throwing out the move to cover something. if you're covering something right after gaining a frame advantage then you can think of it as baiting.

if you are considering what to do after a CC, you should merely be thinking of what options beat the various things he can do with his limited options after a CC.