-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Frame Advantage
- Thread starter Bl@ckChris
- Start date
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
This doesn't seem bad to me (so long as you still think in space)...
But its too complicated for me, so i'ma stick with space.
But its too complicated for me, so i'ma stick with space.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Of course. We need to learn to view things in four dimensions, so we can master them, and eventually travel through those four dimensions with ease.So you're saying we should view this in terms of spacetime?
After that, we can move onto 5-dimensional Melee.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Yooo so like, shadows of objects are in the dimension below them (i.e. we, 3 dimentional objects, have two dimentional shadows and 2 dimentional objects have 1 dimentional shadows)
Therefore; while we can't see 4th dimentional objects, we can see their shadows, which are 3 dimentional.
So, relating this back to the topic at hand; this is confusing and difficult, stop it right now.
Therefore; while we can't see 4th dimentional objects, we can see their shadows, which are 3 dimentional.
So, relating this back to the topic at hand; this is confusing and difficult, stop it right now.
I think this view is ultimately subsumed by thinking about the game in terms of positioning. When you are thinking about the game in terms of where you are and what kinds of safe options you and your opponent have, the passage of time is inextricable from that, but if you aren't thinking about where you are, a lot of that information becomes less useful.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Fair to Jab is more of a frame trap rather than being something advantageous on shield. Because a fully spaced Fair can't really punished OOS because Ganon is too far away for any character to retaliate fast enough. It's not safe however if he's too close, basically any move that can come out on like frame 3 can counter it I think or something at that distance.
The jab after is used to prevent actions, using both (Fair and Jab) at the first frame possible isn't good because shielding a jab is also unsafe and is kinda predictable at this point. In these cases, it's much better to delay the jab and wait for your opponent to do something so you can stuff it right as he releases his shield.
The jab after is used to prevent actions, using both (Fair and Jab) at the first frame possible isn't good because shielding a jab is also unsafe and is kinda predictable at this point. In these cases, it's much better to delay the jab and wait for your opponent to do something so you can stuff it right as he releases his shield.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I don't think any move comes out of shield on frame 3.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Maybe but when Fair hits a shield, there's the hitstun but there's also the animation that needs to end too, so depending how you do it.. if it's mispaced on shield it can be countered before Ganon is able to do anything else. Though there's only certain moves that can counter it... I cant really say which ones but shine definitely.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think you can just shield grab it if Ganon isn't spaced.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well that too. But let's say shielding a perfect knee on shield even if it's mispaced, I wonder if you can shield grab that?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You can't shield grab Knee because it has slightly more shield stun than Ganon fair and much less l-cancel time.
Ganon's fair is typically gonna be staled a lot more than knee because Ganon's fair is one of his main tools to do everything onstage whereas Falcon has more options and knee's mostly a combo finisher, shield pressure tool, etc. It's only sometimes used for first hits.
They're totally different. Barely comparable at all.
edit:
Frame advantage is screwy in this game because you get frame advantage based on how much damage your move does. But the same moves we use to pressure shields are often our combo tools, pokes, etc. So their frame advantage changes a lot. What may start as a +2 can become a -1 if you use the move enough. Cool, huh? Not when you go for attack > grab on block and get shield grabbed first!
I sometimes think of Falco dittos as having some kind of relevant "frame advantage" in the neutral, by which I mean one Falco is hitting the other with lasers and the other Falco has to deal with it because it's tough as balls to get lasers off when you're being gunned down. But that's basically the only MU where I can think of something like that being important. Other MUs are won mainly by positioning & timing in the neutral. And there's a lot of that nonsense in Falco ditto too AFAIK.
Frame advantage doesn't really matter in this game unless you're Fox, Falco, or Peach for the most part. OOS options are fairly slow for the most part in this game too. So, again, the pressure in this game is more about having good positioning & countering the opponent's action directly, rather than creating long block strings.
There are a few exceptions to the above but general rules like, "This move is fairly safe if I do it like this" will get you by for a very long time (possibly forever). And they're just as good as, "This move leaves me at neutral frames if it's staled to 11% but then if it goes to 10% I'm at -1 so therefore..."
:/
Ganon's fair is typically gonna be staled a lot more than knee because Ganon's fair is one of his main tools to do everything onstage whereas Falcon has more options and knee's mostly a combo finisher, shield pressure tool, etc. It's only sometimes used for first hits.
They're totally different. Barely comparable at all.
edit:
Frame advantage is screwy in this game because you get frame advantage based on how much damage your move does. But the same moves we use to pressure shields are often our combo tools, pokes, etc. So their frame advantage changes a lot. What may start as a +2 can become a -1 if you use the move enough. Cool, huh? Not when you go for attack > grab on block and get shield grabbed first!
I sometimes think of Falco dittos as having some kind of relevant "frame advantage" in the neutral, by which I mean one Falco is hitting the other with lasers and the other Falco has to deal with it because it's tough as balls to get lasers off when you're being gunned down. But that's basically the only MU where I can think of something like that being important. Other MUs are won mainly by positioning & timing in the neutral. And there's a lot of that nonsense in Falco ditto too AFAIK.
Frame advantage doesn't really matter in this game unless you're Fox, Falco, or Peach for the most part. OOS options are fairly slow for the most part in this game too. So, again, the pressure in this game is more about having good positioning & countering the opponent's action directly, rather than creating long block strings.
There are a few exceptions to the above but general rules like, "This move is fairly safe if I do it like this" will get you by for a very long time (possibly forever). And they're just as good as, "This move leaves me at neutral frames if it's staled to 11% but then if it goes to 10% I'm at -1 so therefore..."
:/
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
Yeah, the frame advantage idea was primarily spawned when considering falco vs peach and the weird float vs laser neutral standoff. You make a lot of good points on how moves are much more often safe by position and not necessarily by frames. I also find your point on staling to be something I didn't consider, yet very important at the core of the idea, however impractical it may be.
I've pretty much given up on the idea as a whole though. It was a fun thought for a night, but its pretty impractical, and thinking in space tends to be much more applicable to any given moment while playing. And if I want a frame advantage ill just have to bait someone to get it, and if I want a bigger advantage, then lay a better more complicated bait to hit them harder.
I've pretty much given up on the idea as a whole though. It was a fun thought for a night, but its pretty impractical, and thinking in space tends to be much more applicable to any given moment while playing. And if I want a frame advantage ill just have to bait someone to get it, and if I want a bigger advantage, then lay a better more complicated bait to hit them harder.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I 100% see where you are coming from Chris and I often explain this element of the game when I'm teaching people Smash.
It is a large factor in momentum, which is one of the most important parts of Smash once you get to the "mind-games" level of play.
It is a large factor in momentum, which is one of the most important parts of Smash once you get to the "mind-games" level of play.
Chris, i'm glad you brought this up. yesterday at Cactuar's we had a long conversation about this
if i could amend my Don't Approach thread from last year, i'd change it to "Don't Approach Without Frame Advantage". because when you have frame advantage, you certainly approach and try to combo or pressure string for as long as possible. that's exactly what the neutral game is imo, a fight for frame advantage
if i could amend my Don't Approach thread from last year, i'd change it to "Don't Approach Without Frame Advantage". because when you have frame advantage, you certainly approach and try to combo or pressure string for as long as possible. that's exactly what the neutral game is imo, a fight for frame advantage