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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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Conviction

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M-USD? (Match-up smackdown) lol
Anyways yea I am gonna have to agree with Zhamy I think there are things your missing and plus I didnt see a single if in his reply to you >.> XD Yea you forget that not only can we use our reflector but we can clank your projectiles with a jab. As for bombs i cant say much they can be tricky and since our match-up are based on high level play so yea can't say much on that. Sorry I might use your Fox cant combo Toon link as a Siggy ^^
 

SmashBrother2008

Smash Lord
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@TLMSheikant; running into a forum and posting an arrogant, biased and opinionated arguement for your character will only make people want to disagree with you and prove you wrong even more. I believe some of your thoughts were going somewhere but you need to study this matchup and re-word your statement if you want to turn some heads.

^^^Just a bit of knowledge I've learned on these forums.
 

KheldarVII

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I just hate it when people keep calling their character "smart".

If the Fox plays smart, he *****. If the Toon Link plays smart, he destroys. Honestly, it's just a cheap temporary fix to say "I have the advantage over you cuz ur dumb lulz". Well not really. But since this is metagame/tier/tournament level play here shouldn't we assume the player is always playing smart? It just bugs me when an argument spawns "yeah well, if such and such plays smart, they will win".





If Fox perfect shields everything, he is top tier. How about that?
 

Lightning93

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Lol I want a quote in my sig... but yes I've seen both sides of the argument (some of it good and some of it bad) and Zhammy has confirmed that we do need to approach. Just remember the bombs, those are a bit tricky to get around if an arrow or boomerang is following immediately after. Because of this I have agreed to 60:40. Approaching has always been my nature, but I can go on defense if need be.

Note to everyone here, please, do NOT go to tournaments playing pools unless you have all the time in the world and wash your hands with warm water before your next match. It took 5 hours and 40 minutes to eliminate 18 people and then we still had to do a 32 man single elimination bracket at 9:00 pm. I hadn't been playing for 4 hours so I was literally not warmed up, meaning my hands were frozen (it's cold in the Bay Area), so my Fox sucked. Especially when Kirby can just cg you, when you need your precise timing to combo and gimp.
 

Lightning93

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Yeah, good news was I met an old friend who mains Peach, although he really started to pick Shiek/Zelda now. He was doing really good as well, and he was warmed up, but he got eliminated too. I felt bad for him but he said he didn't care. It was a great tourney, they had an amplifier system with an echo feature, so when they started to play Captain Faclon sound effects it was just epic.

YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHZ YEEEAAAHZ YEEAAHZ yeahz yeahzzzz....
 

M@v

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Ok I think we have covered TL enough. This one goes to fox, 6:4
SUMMARY:

Toon Link is a well balanced character. He has a variety of projectiles, average priority, a decent killing game, and an acceptable recovery. unfortunately for TL, Fox is "Good" in many areas.
First, the projectile game. You probably wont be using your blaster much, but TL has it worse. You have plenty of options vs his spam game. TL's projectile come out slow. Fox's speed can create or close distance fast. Shine works against his arrows and boomerang. And his bombs are not hard to dodge.
Fox's upsmash serves well yet again in this matchup. Tl's upsmash is his best kill move. Its less powerful and slightly slower than yours. TL does his best in this matchup when he zones midrange. It makes it tricky to get close to him, due to his fsmash, and he can punish you with projectiles if you run. Be aware of this. Your combos work well, and TL has uptilt combos as well. TL's defense from above isnt too good. You can shine stall him, and punish accordingly for jumping too early/late.
The deathknell of toonlink is the fact the shine outprioritizes his upb. TL is easy picking for fox off stage. Be very aggressive offstage with fox. TL can cause problems for you with bombs and arrows. If he is daring, he might try a down air spike. Play smart, and this should be a win for you.

Next up, one of my secondaries, Pit:


I am saying this is anywhere from even to 5:5 to 6:4 fox.

Also, I changed the opening pic to the guide. Need to mix it up. I also think its an awesome fan art pic.
 

Admiral Pit

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Fox is quite the troublemaker, to me. Not only is speed a problem, but the fact that Fox has a reflector discourages my free open use of arrows, though I still use them strategically, but speed is always a problem.

Note: Fox is one of the chars that can be D-tilt spiked by Pit while hanging on the ledge, so dont hang on for too long.

The more common moves of a Fox that I recently see are:
D-air: Allow different followups, that can include U-tilt, U-smash, and even Dsmash.
U-tilt: Original damage-racking move, creates possible Fox combo
U-Smash: Main Kill move.

Other things I see can be the reflector, for in this matchup, you can use the Shine spike to gimp a Pit Up-B, and boy do i hate that so much.

Well, I suppose Fox hates our infinte jab, which will stop him in his tracks, and Fox's real approach against that is to go above him.
That reminds me. If a Pit angles where he places his U-air it can outprioritize Fox's D-air approach (most of the time normally). This is where the Fox must use his reflector correctly to not only stall before using D-air, but avoid Pit's U-air hitbox.

Idk much since i havent seen a Fox recently, or a good one that is. Most foxes have their U-tilt, Usmash and D-airs, but it's Fox's primary moves. I even used Fox before and use those, though not spammingly.

As far as gimping goes, Pit wins it, though he's generally Always vulnerable while recovering with Up-B. one Shine Spike is all it takes.
On Pit's side, he can stop you with Arrows, though you can reflect em, or Mirror Shield your up-B with good timing (I dont recall a Fox usin Up-B much cept for a Side-B replacement).

Pit has a small F-throw chaingrab on Fox, due to Fox's speed of which he falls, it's a small one, but you can avoid it if you're quick enough or if the Pit does it too slowly.

I dont got nothing else as of now, but I would probably say this as 50-50 Even
It's also because of Fox's reflector that hurts Pit's ledgecamp game a bit.
 

KheldarVII

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A N-air/F-air gimp is probably safer than the shine spike but hey, it's always a big middle finger to the recoverer.
 

super_bacon807

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If a remember correctly, the first post said that these Lucario and Link matches had already been agreed upon on both sides... It's just that the actual match-up discussion took place on the other character's boards, not on the Fox boards.

On another note, M@v already posted an updated (and correct) match-up chart on the first post. The font is a bit different for the ratios of the more recent discussions, but I doubt that matters.
 

Lightning93

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Um... maybe the more platforms the better here? You can come up with an u-air, or f-air if he's up above, and have an easier time getting around's Pit arrows if he tries to camp. Final D may be harder because you're very exposed and may have to jump around a bit more?

Sorry, I've played only several good Pit's. Actually I have a video I will upload one right now. Hold on... (although he's really at this time neither of us were really pro.)
 

Admiral Pit

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One of Pit's better stages is Norfair, but he hates The mansion, and sometimes YI (Brawl). Idk much about this with the lack of CP experience against that particular char. Im more used to Snake, Diddy, Falco, and Dedede, which all hate Norfair as well, making it one of Pit's best stages.
Note that should a smart Pit take you to Norfair, if he knows what he's doing, he'd use the Platforms to his advantage, using Up-B near the ledges to grab on to em quicker, and deliver U-air after U-air. It enhances Pit's ledgecamping game, though they still have to be aware of the Lava hazards, which mirror Shield can block 2 outta 4 of those hazards (smasll lava bursts from the back and the lavafalls on the left and right).

The Stupid Mansion itself negates Pit's ledgecamp game with arrows, and he cant glide under the stage. He is usually forced to close-combat where he is outranged by most of the characters in the game.
 

Afropony

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^ not that great, it stops him from being able to ledgcamp because of the little klappytrap thing but Apart from that and the water (which doesn't really help anyone) it isn't that bad a stage for Pit.

I would say a good stage for Pit against fox would be Lylat. The edges on the stage can screw Fox's recovery up and Pit can glide under the stage if he needs to. the moving of the stage might make it hard to shoot Pit with the laser where as Pit can move hies arrow.
Platforms aren't really that bad for Pit, he can use his Utilt which comes out very quickly and his aerials to set up for small combos. They also make wing refreshing easier for Pit.
 

Zhamy

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Lylat cruise is such a ****ty stage for Fox. All that random glitchy stuff keeps screwing the stage up for him, it's too small, and he can't employ anything special that gives him an advantage.

Bleh.
 

M@v

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The reason why Link is 70:30, even though we have not discussed him yet, is because I was over at the link boards when they were doing fox. I was elaborating with them, and we came up with 70:30
 

Yanoss1313

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I'm seeing allot of well informed and help full stuff here, especially from Admiral Bowser, keep it up fellas, on topic of CP-ing against pit, I'd personality be inclined to take him to Corneria, the low sealing can lead to some really low % kills against a fairly light pit, also, i believe he can't glide under the stage, i'd like to hear your thoughts on this one.
 
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