Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[RyseEX]

Let me know what to improve on
https://youtu.be/UdxV0PnQ_I0

 

[theMagnumDragon]

Let me know what to improve on
https://youtu.be/UdxV0PnQ_I0

You overuse full hop in neutral so you basically lose alot of threatening space, lose cc ability, and make your movement easier to read and intercept. Try staying more grounded and full hops should be mainly for baits maybe zoning.

I think that is a good place to start and some other problems will solve them self if you address this issue.

 

[flieskiller]

falling 1st hit of uair, is that viable? What's the frame advantage and is that worth it?

 

[bearsfan092]

Anyone got frame data (input leniency really) on upthrow upair on Marth at 0? No DI and DI forward/behind please. I'm trying to get the forward/behind more consistent and wanted to know exactly what numbers I'm dealing with.

 

[L33thal]

Can anyone give me advice/tips about these sets? I feel like I have reads/pick up on people's tendencies but I try to do too much stuff and my play ends up being really sloppy. I've been wondering if a more conservative style is better? Thanks!

 

[Chainz]

Can someone give me a basic rundown on the Samus matchup? Best way to approach, what to avoid, what % do certain combos work etc.

 

[{Lemons}]

Can someone give me a basic rundown on the Samus matchup? Best way to approach, what to avoid, what % do certain combos work etc.

Samus has an extremely strong crouch cancel game so careless nair approaches will mess you up. At low to fairly high percents (not sure what off the top of my head) you will be much better of trying to approach with dair instead to negate crouch cancel. You can follow up with a waveshine into up smash. This can be difficult compared to other characters and you can't continually waveshine her only get a single followup afterward. If you do get a nair at higher percents don't follow up with shine but with another nair. Shine will push her to the ground and she will be able to act instantly leading to you eating a downsmash.

Another common Samus tactic is a simple wavedash into an option. The most straightforward way of dealing with this is overshooting your approach. Basically just aim your hitbox a bit behind her.

Up throw to up air doesn't work at any percent luckily for Samus (otherwise the matchup would suck). Even though this is the case you shouldn't give up on grabbing her entirely. You can aim for a tech chase with down throw or just get some stage with other throws plus some percent. It also helps keep her from shielding too much and using up b out of shield.

Upward kills are good against Samus who can otherwise live a long time horizontally.

Oh and running shine is good.

The best thing to do is to play a bunch of games against a Samus player in your area. If you aren't lucky enough to have one FeelsBadMan.

 

[Comet7]

What can Fox do in situations like this at 22:02? I don't know what to do against early up b.

And if anybody wants to critique me on that set that would be nice.

 

[{Lemons}]

What can Fox do in situations like this at 22:02? I don't know what to do against early up b.

And if anybody wants to critique me on that set that would be nice.

You have a timestamp but seem to have forgotten the video.

 

[Comet7]

You have a timestamp but seem to have forgotten the video.

oops, my b

twitch.tv/virtualwarfare

 

[{Lemons}]

In that particular instance you actually could have hit him with a forward smash, down smash, shine etc after he hit you due to low hitstun. You also could have reached the ledge before Marth could have dolphin slashed like that.

If you suspect that Marth is going to early up b instead of going for the shine spike, wait and react to what he does. You can also try and bait it, shield it etc.

You can also use a technique referred to as the marth killer. The marth killer is very simple to execute and can be done by any character. Simply roll to the edge of the stage and start to hold z during the roll. Then just hold z and the control stick away from the stage. This will buffer a light shield and cause you to grab the ledge if your shield is hit due to shield DI. Do not become overly reliant on this as Marth has ways around it.

Whatever your gameplan try and be aware that Marth has that option available to him.

Hope this helps in some way, I'm sure other people have other suggestions. For instance you can try asking some Marth players in your area about it.

 

[dlai226]

I have so much trouble playing against Falcos. I have really bad DI and I can't seem to DI out of combos. I try to DI shine up and away (the 10-11oclock and 1-2 oclock on the analog stick), but I'm just stuck in hitstun for so long I feel like I just get hit anyways. Is this the correct way to be DI-ing? I try to DI the dair outwards as well. Can anyone drop some knowledge on me for this?

 

[Klemes]

I have so much trouble playing against Falcos. I have really bad DI and I can't seem to DI out of combos. I try to DI shine up and away (the 10-11oclock and 1-2 oclock on the analog stick), but I'm just stuck in hitstun for so long I feel like I just get hit anyways. Is this the correct way to be DI-ing? I try to DI the dair outwards as well. Can anyone drop some knowledge on me for this?

DI up doesn't help escape combos, it's only good as survival DI on fsmash/bair/nair... DI his shine all out (double stick helps) / down+out when you try to tech on a platform faster.
Falco's the best in the game at chasing you up and down, but not that great to cover horizontally : so this means DI and tech accordingly to make him run, he can't cover all tech options in most situation for instance.
Pay attention when you get shined : be sure to recognize what side falco's hitting you from to get the good DI out, and DI in on shine = straight up for a free folluw up.
The dair on the ground you need to SDI, tap out to get out of shine range.

 

[T^2]

Can anyone give me advice/tips about these sets? I feel like I have reads/pick up on people's tendencies but I try to do too much stuff and my play ends up being really sloppy. I've been wondering if a more conservative style is better? Thanks!

the commentator of the first video was right. you approach nonstop, and people are punishing you for it. try to calm yourself down, shoot some lasers and force them to come to you. after you get a whiff or a tech flub, your combo game is on point for the most part, so use it. dash dancing is crucial, and in my opinion you're messing up and moving into range of attacks quite a few times, which got capitalized off of. so in short: calm down, shoot lasers, and work on your dash dancing. everything else looks really good.

 

[Daze 072401]

I'm tired of seeing so many threads asking questions that have been answered over and over again, and are obvious to the average smasher. I figure this will stop at least some of those from popping up.

Post asking anything you want about Fox that you're not sure about or just don't know. I will answer your question within the day, and if anyone else wants to answer before I can, go for it, and false information given will be corrected.

Also it wouldn't hurt to check this thread, or others before asking but, it really won't matter much.

Ask away.​

Just how good is a Fox who's reluctant to laser?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This came up in a reply on reddit and I spent a bit of time making gifs, so I thought i'd cross post the info here. Its probably common knowledge to anyone who plays fox in tournament a lot, but maybe a few of you dont know.

First, if you upthrow another spacie and they do not DI, your shine will send them behind you every time.

Second, if you connect two shines in quick sequence, the knockback will stack.

If you combine these two, you realize that near the edge you can perform uthrow -> double shine and put them into a very bad position.

After someone has experienced this a few times, they seek a counter. That counter is to SDI up and in on the first shine, which will cause the 2nd shine to miss.

Even if the fox compensates for the SDI by jumping before the 2nd shine, the opponent will be able to reach a higher vertical distance. This means that they have more options than upbing from below the stage (which is easy to cover).

tl;dr: If you miss your DI in this situation, input SDI up and in to survive. You have 5 frames to execute the SDI, so it is not very difficult.

 

[Kevin Sweeney]

Can someone explain to me how this grab works? It happens at 0:01 of this https://clips.twitch.tv/mang0/TenderChamoisMingLee

Was this the apex of his dash which allowed him to pivot to grab? I think that's what it is but I want to make sure because I feel like I see a lot of foxes using this.

 

[tauKhan]

Can someone explain to me how this grab works? It happens at 0:01 of this https://clips.twitch.tv/mang0/TenderChamoisMingLee

Was this the apex of his dash which allowed him to pivot to grab? I think that's what it is but I want to make sure because I feel like I see a lot of foxes using this.

That was a pivot grab, it's very common to see those now. When you dash dance, you actually do sequences of dash -> 1 frame smash turn -> dash -> 1 frame smash turn -> dash -> ... It's possible to do something else than another dash after the 1 frame turn, but you have to be precise to avoid the dash.

I do pivot grabs like that by trying to input jc grab at the same time I smash stick for dash. That way if I hit jump on the same frame as turn, turn happens and pivot grab after. If I'm 1 frame late on the jump, jump happens right after turn, so the result is pivot jump -> jc grab which is functionally almost same as just pivot grab.

if you connect two shines in quick sequence, the knockback will stack.

The knockbacks won't stack because:

1. You'll have to do the 2nd shine very quickly after the first one in order to hit, and kb stacking doesn't happen if the second hit occurs within 10 frames after the first.
2. The way kb stacking works is that for both horizontal and vertical components, the values will be added if they have opposite directions (one is positive and other negative), and if the components have the same direction, the one with higher absolute value will be chosen. So even if the gap between the shines was long enough, the kbs wouldn't be added together since the shines share same launch angle. TDI could change that a bit but not by much.

That said, double shine at the edge will put the opponent in considerably worse position than a single shine because the opponent will move between the hits. The conclusion of your post is correct is as well, SDI up and in on the first shine will help one to survive.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sorry man, but the current knowledge about knockback stacking is not fully accurate.

Go into debug menu and do 1 shine, have the opponent jump the first frame they can. Note their vertical position. Do the same thing with double shine, you will notice they are considerably lower, even though the 2nd shine hit them only a few pixels lower to the ground.

I might make a gif to show this, but for now im out to play PokeGo

 

[tauKhan]

Sorry, I forgot to account for the upthrow. There's quite a bit of vertical kb speed left when the first shine hits in the scenario.(~1.36 according to ikneedata calculator) The 2nd shine hits within 10 frames of the first, which eliminates all the previous kb including the upward component still left from the upthrow.

I always wondered why uthrow single shine is so inefficient, guess it's solved now . Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh that makes sense. I just tested it without the uthrow and a single shine definitely does the work, no additional gains from the 2nd shine. Thanks

 

[dlai226]

What am I supposed to do against the Luigi charged down B? Just run away? I feel like I always severely underestimate the length and time of the move.

 

[Comet7]

Why does Fox sometimes fail to land on the side platform on YS from the top platform when running off?

 

[ManXan]

What are the essential things to learn when just picking up Fox? I just picked him up yesterday but have been playing the game for about a year so i'm familiar with terminology.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

All the information is out there, you have to go looking for it. Don't get in the habit of relying on others to answer your questions, first put in the effort to answer them yourself.

This is far from a comprehensive list of knowledge, but it should be enough to get you started: http://www.meleelibrary.com/#fox

 

[andromult3]

Two questions:

1. In the fox ditto against one of the PR'd players in my state, he really often goes for up-smash after up-throw (at low to mid percents) regardless of DI off the throw. He's great at tech chasing and it feels like he always gets at least 2-3 up-smashes on me unless I drift offstage or land on a platform. Assuming that I get grabbed in the middle of FD (so I know the up-smash will connect), how should I DI/SDI in order to minimize the damage that I take? If I miss a tech after the first up-smash and know that he'll punish the missed tech with another up-smash, can I amsah tech that and how do I escape? I'm so used to just playing against people that chaingrab that I keep missing techs against him in this situation and getting punished for it.

2. How should I follow up when I get an up-throw on Fox/Falco and they land on a platform and need to tech? Do I have to choose to either a) cover the missed tech/tech in place with an up-air or b) choose to react to teching in a direction and punish that? Or is it possible to guarantee a follow-up with great reaction timing? and does this differ between the platform heights on YS/BF/DL? It looks to me like top players go for a really quick up-air to cover tech in place/missed tech and it works most of the time, but I can't tell if that's by reaction or prediction.

Thank you!

 

[tsmfoxmaster]

How do you shine bair from the ledge? What inputs should I use to pull it of consistently?

 

[gmBottles]

How do you shine bair from the ledge? What inputs should I use to pull it of consistently?

You wouldn't have to shine since you'd already be facing the right direction when you leave ledge, but if you need shine for whatever reason, it'd simply be drop from ledge, shine without turning either direction, jump, bair. Consistency comes with practice.

Edit: Realized you might be wanting to bair onto stage. You'd simply drop, quickly shine turn around, and bair. Simple sounding, but you have to pull it off fast. Although, in most cases you'd be better off ledgedashing into some other option I think.

 

[T^2]

Two questions:

1. In the fox ditto against one of the PR'd players in my state, he really often goes for up-smash after up-throw (at low to mid percents) regardless of DI off the throw. He's great at tech chasing and it feels like he always gets at least 2-3 up-smashes on me unless I drift offstage or land on a platform. Assuming that I get grabbed in the middle of FD (so I know the up-smash will connect), how should I DI/SDI in order to minimize the damage that I take? If I miss a tech after the first up-smash and know that he'll punish the missed tech with another up-smash, can I amsah tech that and how do I escape? I'm so used to just playing against people that chaingrab that I keep missing techs against him in this situation and getting punished for it.

2. How should I follow up when I get an up-throw on Fox/Falco and they land on a platform and need to tech? Do I have to choose to either a) cover the missed tech/tech in place with an up-air or b) choose to react to teching in a direction and punish that? Or is it possible to guarantee a follow-up with great reaction timing? and does this differ between the platform heights on YS/BF/DL? It looks to me like top players go for a really quick up-air to cover tech in place/missed tech and it works most of the time, but I can't tell if that's by reaction or prediction.

Thank you!

I'm not sure if someone covered this or not, but you can either dair up smash a missed tech or you can Waveland onto the platform and tc grab/ upsmash to cover any tech option on a platfrom

Edit: I'm not sure if you have enough time after a missed dair to cover tech options or not, so you might have to choose. Wavelanding on the platform is the safest and most guarenteed way to get a follow-up on the tech

 

[Pesi]

Question about waveshining Marth:

I'm using the 20XX hack pack with green overlays to show the earliest moment you can act out of a move/hitstun. When I waveshine marth, the mod doesn't show him being able to act until after the 'electric element effect' from the shine is gone and his character returns to the way it looked before being hit. I assumed this to mean that it is a true combo if I can hit him while he still has this effect on him. In training mode though, it will occasionally not register it as a true combo if I hit it a little later, but he still has the effect on.

I guess my question is, what is the latest moment you can attack Marth after a waveshine and have it confirmed?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You have exactly 33 frames of action before marth escapes hitstun. This leaves you 17 frames of leeway if you account for the wavedash.

 

[vizayad89]

How do you shine bair from the ledge? What inputs should I use to pull it of consistently?

If you're having trouble getting on the stage after bairing from the ledge it probably means that you aren't jumping quickly enough. If you physically can't move your thumb quick enough from x/y to the c-stick, you can either tap-jump or do a momentary claw (bringing pointer finger from z to y, which is what I do).

 

[Bl@ckChris]

Mango seems to be staying in a range vs puff at SSC (when he's not busy shooting her, and even sometimes when he is...) that I don't particularly understand. Does anyone else recognize this range, and understand how one could readily internalize it and see it?

 

[gmBottles]

Mango seems to be staying in a range vs puff at SSC (when he's not busy shooting her, and even sometimes when he is...) that I don't particularly understand. Does anyone else recognize this range, and understand how one could readily internalize it and see it?

I think what he's trying to do is stay just out of Jigglypuff's bair hitbox range. Close enough to convert off a whiffed move, and far enough to avoid moves and laser. That's what I think, anyway, not sure if that's actually the reason.

If that is the reason, he is probably visualizing the hitbox itself in order to distance himself. Learning the range of hitboxes is crucial for spacing imo

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ok, that's what the range looked like, but I wasn't sure if you guys had any bonus details. i can do that really well against other characters, but probably the two dimensional nature of her already being in the air makes it more difficult for me. I'll work on it.

 

[gmBottles]

ok, that's what the range looked like, but I wasn't sure if you guys had any bonus details. i can do that really well against other characters, but probably the two dimensional nature of her already being in the air makes it more difficult for me. I'll work on it.

It's really hard if you don't already know the hitbox personally. As an ex-Puff main, and with Mango having been one as well, it makes it a good bit easier to visualize the hitbox since it can't really be based on the character model alone with that huge disjoint

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I feel like to whiff punish fox, you have to already be within his threat range. Does this feel real to anyone else or am I just bad?

like, it's definitely possible to whiff punish him, but it feels like even as fox ourselves, we have to put ourselves at some piece of risk before we're actually close enough to hit him for doing anything. Is that just an image i have or is that why the fox ditto feels like whoever acts first often loses?

 

[Voidish]

Me vs #1 PR in our area. What should I do differently in this matchup/in general? (im the fox)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WmnvnkWy8M

 

[DannyBoi]

I'm a noob, How do you get the 17 degrees in you angles on up b

 

[gmBottles]

I'm a noob, How do you get the 17 degrees in you angles on up b

You just have to press in the right direction. It's very precise. Practice doing different angles without falling into the notches on the control stick.