Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Chainz

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Just uploaded some matches me and a friend did last week. Can you guys give me some advice on my neutral game? Mostly looking for how I should approach Falco and Marth and what better options I need to take.


 

spinachburner

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Just uploaded some matches me and a friend did last week. Can you guys give me some advice on my neutral game? Mostly looking for how I should approach Falco and Marth and what better options I need to take.


I'm gonna write notes as I watch these

Video 1:
Dash dance instead of sitting in shield, and wavedash OoS instead of jumping.
You shouldn't approach with dash attack, I saw you do this 3 times in a row.
Try to angle your firefox recoveries more instead of just doing a straight one.
Don't fullhop so much in neutral.
Learn shine OoS.
When chaingrabbing Falco, you should incorporate more utilts, it'll be easier to get the regrab at mid-percents.
It looks like a lot of your movement is directed towards the opponent, try to make your movement more tricky and bait out attacks from Falco that you can punish.

Video 2:
Again, you go aggro too much. When you hit their shield try doing a drill shine grab or nair shine grab. I used to do the same thing.
Don't stand still, you should always be moving unless it's some sort of mind game, which is something that should be rare.
Try to mix up your firefox angles.

I don't have as much for the second video because I don't want to repeat myself too much, and I'm also not as good in the Marth MU as I am the Falco MU.
 

Chainz

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I'm gonna write notes as I watch these

Video 1:
Dash dance instead of sitting in shield, and wavedash OoS instead of jumping.
You shouldn't approach with dash attack, I saw you do this 3 times in a row.
Try to angle your firefox recoveries more instead of just doing a straight one.
Don't fullhop so much in neutral.
Learn shine OoS.
When chaingrabbing Falco, you should incorporate more utilts, it'll be easier to get the regrab at mid-percents.
It looks like a lot of your movement is directed towards the opponent, try to make your movement more tricky and bait out attacks from Falco that you can punish.

Video 2:
Again, you go aggro too much. When you hit their shield try doing a drill shine grab or nair shine grab. I used to do the same thing.
Don't stand still, you should always be moving unless it's some sort of mind game, which is something that should be rare.
Try to mix up your firefox angles.

I don't have as much for the second video because I don't want to repeat myself too much, and I'm also not as good in the Marth MU as I am the Falco MU.
Tbh, I'm so used to always wavedashing out of shine when doing SHFFLs that it's become a major bad habit of mine lol.

Been working on mixing it up more.
 

SmokingPie

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hey guys, i have several problems dealing against almost every top 8 tier character in tournament play, usually when i play in friendlies i do a lot better(nerves problems as always) but the actually think is im having a lot of trouble dealing with falcon and falco, in the falcon MU i can win but not against the top player in my region i cant really play a better neutral 'cause i have trouble dealing with his fast shffls any advice in this case? , and for the falco MU i have a lot of problem dealing with lasers i defeated the top falco here once, but he was playing really bad atm, but in the recent tournament i didnt know what to do exactly he caught me off guard every time i tried to approach and if i go defensive he goes "gay" starting lasering and dair pressure like hell, every time i tried to jump out of lasers hitstun he punished me with dair and started to combo(dropping his comboes as always but racking a lot of damage). any help to deal with it? , im considered the most technical fox around my region but still can't do well in tournaments(highest place was 4th). please help i really want to improve my game. hope you understand my english is really really bad.
ps: the top falco here is also my friend i literally destroy him when training, but when it comes to tournament i dont know what happen with my fingers and my mind.
 
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spinachburner

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hey guys, i have several problems dealing against almost every top 8 tier character in tournament play, usually when i play in friendlies i do a lot better(nerves problems as always) but the actually think is im having a lot of trouble dealing with falcon and falco, in the falcon MU i can win but not against the top player in my region i cant really play a better neutral 'cause i have trouble dealing with his fast shffls any advice in this case? , and for the falco MU i have a lot of problem dealing with lasers i defeated the top falco here once, but he was playing really bad atm, but in the recent tournament i didnt know what to do exactly he caught me off guard every time i tried to approach and if i go defensive he goes "gay" and start making laser and dair pressure like hell, every time i tried to jump out of lasers hit stun he punished me with dair and started to combo(dropping his comboes as always but racking a lot of damage). any help to deal with it? , im considered the most technical fox around my region but still can't do well in tournaments(highest place was 4th). please help i really want to improve my game. hope you understand my english is really really bad.
There's not too much advice I can give without seeing your play, but it sounds to me like you are just getting antsy and anxious while playing. You mention your techskill, but maybe you should focus on application rather than execution. I could be wrong though, again, haven't seen you play.
 

SmokingPie

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this is the only set recorded that we have, this looks like a really low level play, we played really nervous and sloppy i think.
btw not my best neither him.
ps: we are "mexicans" not really so i recommend you to mute the sound
 
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spinachburner

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this is the only set recorded that we have, this looks like a really low level play, we played really nervous and sloppy i think.
btw not my best neither him.
ps: we are "mexicans" not really so i recommend you to mute the sound
Immediately I can see that both of you are almost always approaching. Maybe you would dash dance twice before going in with a nair or shine. You need to play more patiently and bait things out. I also noticed that when preparing for an edgeguard, you were almost always sitting by the ledge, even after they sideB'd onto stage several time, as well as that when recovering yourself you repeated the same options/angles a lot. You need to mix these things up more.
 

SmokingPie

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Immediately I can see that both of you are almost always approaching. Maybe you would dash dance twice before going in with a nair or shine. You need to play more patiently and bait things out. I also noticed that when preparing for an edgeguard, you were almost always sitting by the ledge, even after they sideB'd onto stage several time, as well as that when recovering yourself you repeated the same options/angles a lot. You need to mix these things up more.
the top player here told me almost the same , the thing is if i dashdance more he start lasering a lot :c, anyways thanks for he advice ill put more work on those things
 
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TrevR

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Running shine is a great approach option that's useful in many match-ups, but I never know exactly when it's a good idea to use it. For example, when should I be using running shine against Falco? Should I use it when the Falco whiffs a move or should I do it outright in neutral? How can I bait my opponent to be open to a running shine in neutral?
 

tsmfoxmaster

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I'm having trouble with recoverys offstage. Every time I'm off stage i double jump side B. What other recoverys are good for when I'm off stage and how should i practice recoverys offstage?
 

Dralro

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I'm having trouble with recoverys offstage. Every time I'm off stage i double jump side B. What other recoverys are good for when I'm off stage and how should i practice recoverys offstage?
Okay Lum is gonna kill me for this, I'm not even a fox main, but I can actually answer that.

Depending on how far you are you should be trying your best not to use your jump when recovering, in case you are hit in the middle, because it can be easy to edgeguard fox side-B, however, to prevent this, whenever you side-B you should try to sweetspot the ledge, if they catch on to that and start grabbing the ledge simply go on stage, if they are covering both options, you can go low and up-B, or you can try for a straight or high-angled up-B to fall onto the ledge, it makes for a good mixup, especially against characters like marth who can easily cover both side-B options, obviously far under large stages like FD or FoD, you can up-B straight up or try for a slight diagonal angle to go on stage depending on where the opponent is. On stages like dreamland you can use the side-B (if you are slightly above stage and closer), possibly with jump, to try and land on, or get an edge-cancel, on a platform, other than that fox can be easy to edgeguard, so just mix it up with different angles of up-B, or side-B on ledge, double jump is sometimes necessary, so don't freak out if you have to use it. I may have missed something or gotten something wrong, and if I do, Lum please correct me.
 

Toxi

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How do I get fast and aggressive movement? I feel like I get stuck in my movement a lot when I'm trying to be flashy and technical. I know people usually say to focus on fundamentals and stuff but I want to be able to move around and feel like I can control fox before working on improving my play. I like players like Javi, Mang0 and Dark, most other playstyles don't really interest me.
I want to play similar to this fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aphi_VTw3q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLuxiP8lZY
 

Dralro

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How do I get fast and aggressive movement? I feel like I get stuck in my movement a lot when I'm trying to be flashy and technical. I know people usually say to focus on fundamentals and stuff but I want to be able to move around and feel like I can control fox before working on improving my play. I like players like Javi, Mang0 and Dark, most other playstyles don't really interest me.
I want to play similar to this fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aphi_VTw3q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLuxiP8lZY
I'm not exactly the authority on the subject, but I can tell you this, you have to worry more about what is effective than what is flashy, if you didn't notice that guy in the video missing a lot of moves and getting punished a lot, it's because he was mostly doing those things without any real effect. Of course you can try for waveshines which works as an attack on some characters, but if you want to have aggressive movement to get good mix-ups. Try dash-dance when you're close into grab or even some other option to mix it up, wavedash forward and back within your opponents range to microspace as much as possible, throw out moves like lasers whenever you can, and if you're good enough, drill into wave-shine is a strong and flashy technique capable of doing great things. Essentially moving the most aggressive while still being effective is done best through mix-ups and advanced technology. There are definitely other things I'm missing, so I'd be interested to hear another fox's input.
 

Gearitz

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How do I use movement? I can waveland, wavedash, dash dance, and I'm still figuring out moonwalking but in neutral I don't know how to use the movement I watch other people and I still don't get it.
 

Dralro

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How do I use movement? I can waveland, wavedash, dash dance, and I'm still figuring out moonwalking but in neutral I don't know how to use the movement I watch other people and I still don't get it.
Will respond to this a bit later in the day, don't worry you'll get the help you need
 

Dralro

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So, in the neutral, using wavedashes and wavelands is all about having as many option as possible for your movement and to escape situations, if the approach with a dash attack or grab of some kind, usually wavedashing back will get you out of the situation, as well as wavedashing in to create a more reliable way to approach with something like jab or upsmash. Obviously knowing how to wavedash out of shield is really relevant, it is a really good escape, dash dancing is mostly for mixups and mindgames, it gives the opponent a very vague idea of how you will approach, and you can move in with grab (Don't forget to jump cancel grab by the way), or go for something like a dash attack or wavedash in for approach, just be sure to not always use the same approach, and make use of Fox's really good mixup game as well as wavelands to help movement and approach adequately.
 

Zodiac

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I see fox's drill to shine on shield ALL the time, and I've practiced and made sure I had L-canceled and I absolutely always get shield grabbed and I am unsure as to why.
 

tauKhan

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I see fox's drill to shine on shield ALL the time, and I've practiced and made sure I had L-canceled and I absolutely always get shield grabbed and I am unsure as to why.
Drill is very disadvantageous on shield and can be shield grabbed lot of the time. It varies from -6 to -8 (dis))advantage on shield when unstaled, and if it's even little bit staled it becomes -7 to -9 on shield. You can vary ff timings with the drill so that the opponent doesn't know how many times the drill will hit before you land, and make it hard for your opponent to time shield grab correctly.
 

Lus146

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Is short hopping harder on Fox than on most characters? I am trying to pick up Fox or Falco and I don't really like Falco too much but I actually really enjoy Fox so far. The biggest problem I have is with SHing. Idk why but I just can't get it consistently. I can do with Sheik and Marth just fine but I don't know. Sorry if this has been asked already, I am decently new to melee.
 
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Is short hopping harder on Fox than on most characters? I am trying to pick up Fox or Falco and I don't really like Falco too much but I actually really enjoy Fox so far. The biggest problem I have is with SHing. Idk why but I just can't get it consistently. I can do with Sheik and Marth just fine but I don't know. Sorry if this has been asked already, I am decently new to melee.
Fox has the shortest jump squat in the game at 4 frames, which means you have 3 frames (1/20th of a second) to hold the jump button if you want to get a short hop. He shares this statistic with Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Samus, Kirby and ICs.

Seeing how you have no problem with Sheik's short hop, your mind might just be tricked by fox's overall speed.
 
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Is there a certain % threshold where Fox can shine out of Marth's chain grab? I've seen some Foxes like Leffen do it and I'm not sure if it's Marth messing up the technique or is there a frame or two where Fox can act and shine?
 

L__

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Fox has the shortest jump squat in the game at 4 frames, which means you have 3 frames (1/20th of a second) to hold the jump button if you want to get a short hop. He shares this statistic with Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Samus, Kirby and ICs.

Seeing how you have no problem with Sheik's short hop, your mind might just be tricked by fox's overall speed.
you actually only have 2 frames. i can't explain it but you can recreat it for yourself if you wanna test it.

Is there a certain % threshold where Fox can shine out of Marth's chain grab? I've seen some Foxes like Leffen do it and I'm not sure if it's Marth messing up the technique or is there a frame or two where Fox can act and shine?
afaik you can shine out at 17% but pivot extends that? them having a port lower than yours (closer to 4) also extends the cg
 

Space Cowboy

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Would it be worth my time to practice with my fox against level 1 CPU Falcons, like Armada does?

I can see the benefits, like getting tech skill in shape, practicing fox's conversions, and getting used to falcons weight, but there are some cons that sort of get me worried. My bad habit is never mixing up my play enough, and I feel it could make my neutral worse, but I still feel that my punish game needs work. Also, it's too easy to edgeguard CPUs because they almost always go for the same option every time.

I feel kinda dumb for asking this stuff
 

Yung Scrap

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"Would it be worth my time to practice with my fox against level 1 CPU Falcons, like Armada does?

I can see the benefits, like getting tech skill in shape, practicing fox's conversions, and getting used to falcons weight, but there are some cons that sort of get me worried. My bad habit is never mixing up my play enough, and I feel it could make my neutral worse, but I still feel that my punish game needs work. Also, it's too easy to edgeguard CPUs because they almost always go for the same option every time.

I feel kinda dumb for asking this stuff" - Space Cowboy

Honestly, its totally worth your time. The hardest thing about fox (for me at least) is keeping consistent with things like option coverage, combos, and even basic tech like short hops and L-cancels. Practicing against a lvl 1 CPU is a good way to practice these because they never *** you up if you miss. As for fixing bad habits, all I can say is changing mix ups is all mental. You have to do it yourself consciously; it won't happen by itself even if you do have great tech.

Edit: messed up quoting, sorry
 
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$Osiaj$

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I only watched the Samus one. Here's my thoughts:

You went for a lot of dash attacks out of neutral at low percents. Bad idea, as Fox's dash attack is slow and reaps very little reward at low percents due to the low knockback. Even if you do hit them that will often get you CCd and punished. Perfect example is at 0:26: you see an opening, go for the dash attack, he acknowledges this and CC downsmashes. Had he been a little better and a little faster that would've been the stock. Again, at 1:50, he reads your dash attack approach and dairs you for it.

My suggestion to alter that is to try and integrate SHFFLd down airs and run-up shines into your approach game. Drill cannot be CCd so it's a good mix-up against a crouch-cancel-happy Samus. Plus, it's also just a great move in general. Samus is at that weight where shine will not knock her down, so you can pick her up into a wave shine combo and get good DMG.

That was what was most glaring to me. I'd say in general there were quite a few technical errors: randy forward airs and missed JCd grabs were the most noticeable. You also gave up stage control at a few moments, to the point where Samus had a lot of room to just keep shooting stuff at you. You don't want to always be super close but make sure you hold stage positioning.

There were other things (your edge-guarding needs work, too), but don't try and change it all at once. Work on getting past that dash attack habit and do more practice with Fox-specific tech skill. I'd recommend this video for the latter: https://youtu.be/6UTIiuGAgWQ

Now, a request from me to y'all other Foxes: has anybody else experienced a period in time where shine>SHFFLd dair becomes difficult to do all of a sudden? I've found that I'm snapping my thumb down too hard on the Y button on my way down to the C-stick which results in a full-hop. Can I get some tips on rewiring my brain to not press down with so much force?
 
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tsmfoxmaster

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I only watched the Samus one. Here's my thoughts:

You went for a lot of dash attacks out of neutral at low percents. Bad idea, as Fox's dash attack is slow and reaps very little reward at low percents due to the low knockback. Even if you do hit them that will often get you CCd and punished. Perfect example is at 0:26: you see an opening, go for the dash attack, he acknowledges this and CC downsmashes. Had he been a little better and a little faster that would've been the stock. Again, at 1:50, he reads your dash attack approach and dairs you for it.

My suggestion to alter that is to try and integrate SHFFLd down airs and run-up shines into your approach game. Drill cannot be CCd so it's a good mix-up against a crouch-cancel-happy Samus. Plus, it's also just a great move in general. Samus is at that weight where shine will not knock her down, so you can pick her up into a wave shine combo and get good DMG.

That was what was most glaring to me. I'd say in general there were quite a few technical errors: randy forward airs and missed JCd grabs were the most noticeable. You also gave up stage control at a few moments, to the point where Samus had a lot of room to just keep shooting stuff at you. You don't want to always be super close but make sure you hold stage positioning.

There were other things (your edge-guarding needs work, too), but don't try and change it all at once. Work on getting past that dash attack habit and do more practice with Fox-specific tech skill. I'd recommend this video for the latter: https://youtu.be/6UTIiuGAgWQ

Now, a request from me to y'all other Foxes: has anybody else experienced a period in time where shine>SHFFLd dair becomes difficult to do all of a sudden? I've found that I'm snapping my thumb down too hard on the Y button on my way down to the C-stick which results in a full-hop. Can I get some tips on rewiring my brain to not press down with so much force?
I appreciate the info man!
 

Yung Scrap

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I just uploaded a video I'm the red fox vs a good Samus player any tips on what I should improve on tech skill and the Samus matchup in general. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rl5P03QBj4o I got another video vs good falco player any tips on what to improve on will be appreciated. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0uYQn4xMBT0&itct=CAsQpDAYBiITCImJkqzLuNACFc17qgodwVAFZjIGcmVsbWZ1SIqfhqC3-pOvrgE=
Osiaj covered a lot of what I would say. I saw a lot of retreating back to platforms and getting off platforms on the side nearest to the edge. Bob seemed to have read some of your movement like rolling backwards at 0:55. You really kept a lot of distance between you and him which can let him gain a lot of stage control with missiles and what not. One main thing I noticed was the apparent lack of a combo game. You would enter, hit with like a bair then retreat again. I saw you get an up throw at 2:00, then miss the uair. To land this, just quickly double jump into the uair, as Samus at 59% is a sitting duck in this situation. Like Osiaj said, try implementing running shine. Samus' ridiculously heavy weight means she is very susceptible to waveshine grab or upsmash. IMO, weak nair or FH early nair is a floaty slayer as it can lead to grabs or upsmash/uptilt, and Fox's full hop is waay too good.
 

nugget1995

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
2
I only watched the Samus one. Here's my thoughts:

You went for a lot of dash attacks out of neutral at low percents. Bad idea, as Fox's dash attack is slow and reaps very little reward at low percents due to the low knockback. Even if you do hit them that will often get you CCd and punished. Perfect example is at 0:26: you see an opening, go for the dash attack, he acknowledges this and CC downsmashes. Had he been a little better and a little faster that would've been the stock. Again, at 1:50, he reads your dash attack approach and dairs you for it.

My suggestion to alter that is to try and integrate SHFFLd down airs and run-up shines into your approach game. Drill cannot be CCd so it's a good mix-up against a crouch-cancel-happy Samus. Plus, it's also just a great move in general. Samus is at that weight where shine will not knock her down, so you can pick her up into a wave shine combo and get good DMG.

That was what was most glaring to me. I'd say in general there were quite a few technical errors: randy forward airs and missed JCd grabs were the most noticeable. You also gave up stage control at a few moments, to the point where Samus had a lot of room to just keep shooting stuff at you. You don't want to always be super close but make sure you hold stage positioning.

There were other things (your edge-guarding needs work, too), but don't try and change it all at once. Work on getting past that dash attack habit and do more practice with Fox-specific tech skill. I'd recommend this video for the latter: https://youtu.be/6UTIiuGAgWQ

Now, a request from me to y'all other Foxes: has anybody else experienced a period in time where shine>SHFFLd dair becomes difficult to do all of a sudden? I've found that I'm snapping my thumb down too hard on the Y button on my way down to the C-stick which results in a full-hop. Can I get some tips on rewiring my brain to not press down with so much force?
you could try to move faster from y to c stick, short hops happen if you arent holding jump when jump squat ends. if youre holding it you will full hop.

if anyone wanys to take a look at my set that'd be siiick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUiCZ6AOQrY
 

RaynEX

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Nice to see this board is still alive and kickin'

To answer the previous question about Marth's CG, if you don't d.i. you can shine him at 20%. If you notice a player shining out below 20% in any match vids, it is because the Marth dropped their pivot re-grab.
 
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L33thal

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Lately I've been getting hit by a lot of "pokes" like Marth's run up grab. Like I'd read somewhat accurately when and at what spacing my opponent goes for them but I can't dash out of range in time. Other counters have been on my mind, but I don't know how to feel about them. I've been thinking about stuff like:

1. Attacking them before they attack me. If I have a good read that they're going to do a certain move, why not go in and hit them before they hit me? But the problem I feel is like, a good opponent can easily switch to defense and the mixup game seems more favorable for your opponent if you look for pre-emptive attacks a lot (e.g. Marth's dash back pivot grab to potentially 0-death you versus the nair that you might land). For example, I feel like Mango gets punished a lot by Armada when he has those moments where he gets too antsy to make the first move.

2. Stuffing them with lesser-commital options. By this I mean stuff like purposely not throwing out moves too far and staying within your "zone" a bit more (e.g. short nairs). It feels like a smarter thing to do that's more "balanced" on the risk-reward spectrum. This seemingly makes it harder for your opponent to guess correctly and they'll have to respond to your hitboxes better. I feel like you can potentially net a fat punish if you read correctly and get the hit confirm on your opponent, while making it harder for your opponent to switch and counter you precisely.

3. Shielding or spotdodging. I'm on the fence about these because while you're making guesses and trying to counter the pokes, I feel like these are like "bad habits". I feel like it's easier for the opponent to condition you than it is for you to mix up how you use shielding or spotdodging since they have relatively more lag.

Any tips/thoughts?
 

Sprenzy

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https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme..._in_a_row_on_netplay/?st=iwxuhugo&sh=1893ee04

It's painfully obvious that the guys criticizing the play doesn't even properly understand his biggest flaws as a player and throw around false accusations about his play.

I hear this alot. From my understanding, in a single stock of Melee there are probably hundreds of microsituations and situations one has to make decisions within, depending on %, positioning, opponent psychology, et cetera--part of being a top player is having full knowledge of the options in these situations and being able to deftly execute whatever choice they make. As such, a bad player could have hundreds of things they're doing wrong/suboptimally per second that don't even involve tech skill. So, looking at a video and saying "He should dtilt more!" sounds ridiculous.

Is this somewhere on the mark?

So it begs the question, how do I properly understand? how and what do I study the gain more knowledge to be able to execute whatever choices they make (in other words fundamentals)

there are just too many things, do I have to learn to see openings? memorize all these micro situations?
 

SamSun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
78
Location
SoCal
3DS FC
3823-8695-2370
Hey, I've been practicing the fox/falco chaingrab on FD, and thinking about how to optimize it.
I read on smashwiki that you can regrab neutral DI on Falco up to 81%, and fox until 66%, (if you have the higher port) is this true? I tried to figure this out on ikneedata, but couldn't really understand how to use it properly.

I used to think that you could always get the kill on fox if you cg'd to ~66%, > uptilt > full hop soft bair > upsmash, but it turns out that they can DI the soft bair really far away and tech. so next on my to-do list is to figure out if there's a better finisher, or if I can reaction tech chase the soft bair somehow and find the kill lol

I feel like there's a flowchart to death unless the spacie goes offstage (and even then still very flowcharty for the gimp) and I want to get as close to the biggest punish off of each grab as possible.

any insight on this would be much appreciated!
 
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