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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
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288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
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TimeMuffinPhD
So I've been practicing Shield Pressure, but not against shields. I've now realized that the timings are vastly different, I was wondering if someone could give me a rundown of the differences when actually pressuring shield? There's a few things putting me off when I'm doing it on shield; so I feel like a better understanding of the concept would help a lot. Thanks!
 

aks!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 24, 2015
Messages
1
Location
Sydney
im having trouble hitting fox's short-hop up-air consistently, what's the timing and where should i be placed? most of the time im getting the weaker hit.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
I'm having difficulty edgeguarding both falco and marth. I have an awful habit of getting spiked by phantasm when I try to shine spike falco haha. As for marth, I just have trouble avoiding being hit by his dolphin slash. I know to try to hit them out of their double jump, which I do when they are double jumping too soon or in the same place every time. Does anyone have other tips/guidelines?
 

~Twitch~

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
4,106
Location
cullowhee, nc western carolina university
I'm having difficulty edgeguarding both falco and marth. I have an awful habit of getting spiked by phantasm when I try to shine spike falco haha. As for marth, I just have trouble avoiding being hit by his dolphin slash. I know to try to hit them out of their double jump, which I do when they are double jumping too soon or in the same place every time. Does anyone have other tips/guidelines?
In my experience just try to be preemptive about it. Is he gonna go phantasm early and go high? Is he
gonna drop and try to sweet spot? Take into account the drift too and try to move in tandem laterally with their drift if they go to the stage but stay close to the ledge so you can keep the ledgehog option open. There are a good bit of rules it just takes good practice. Knowing a certain persons habits for recovering is also good to make things easier on yourself and you can just cover that option.

Marth's...isn't that complex. He's gonna go up. With his up-b and 8 times out of 10 he's going to be hugging the ledge. If he's coming up from far down then time a ledge grab so you have invincibility and shine marth before he can up-b. Or if that timings too tight and you know the Marths going to sweet spot then you can full hop and drift over Marths up-b hitbox (slightly above his head and pretty tall) and shine his back then follow up after that. Or if both of those are too hard then just try to time a ledge grab when marth tries to sweet spot on ledge or if he doesn't sweet spot then jump up and bair him back offstage. There are many many options for edgeguarding marth.

This is all just general stuff I try to keep in mind
 
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Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
Does uthrow uair true combo peach at percents where it will kill?
No, you have to get a good read on the DI and even then the peach can airdodge out of it if he/she's good. Watch Silentwolf vs Bladewise for good examples.
 

Spoice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
235
Location
England, Birmingham
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snoopertrooper
I'm having difficulty edgeguarding both falco and marth. I have an awful habit of getting spiked by phantasm when I try to shine spike falco haha. As for marth, I just have trouble avoiding being hit by his dolphin slash. I know to try to hit them out of their double jump, which I do when they are double jumping too soon or in the same place every time. Does anyone have other tips/guidelines?
For Marth I'd say learn to avoid his dolphin slash. Hax and Leffen have done this pretty well, and catches out even the best marths like PPMD and M2K out.
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
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TimeMuffinPhD
No, you have to get a good read on the DI and even then the peach can airdodge out of it if he/she's good. Watch Silentwolf vs Bladewise for good examples.
I'm absolutely certain Peach can't airdodge out of it, but yes you have to watch out for DI and then the SDI on the U-air itself.
 

Spoice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
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England, Birmingham
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snoopertrooper
So What characters do you have to walk a bit to do a true comboed waveshine?

Also, does anyone else find them self doing a side b by accident when they wave shine?
 

~Twitch~

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,106
Location
cullowhee, nc western carolina university
So What characters do you have to walk a bit to do a true comboed waveshine?

Also, does anyone else find them self doing a side b by accident when they wave shine?
Marth is the big one because he slides so far. In general I just hold forward out of wave shine against sheik, marth, falcon, anyone that slides so that I reach them and people at higher levels generally di away during wave shines anyway so two birds and all that.

Yes :(
 

Spoice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Location
England, Birmingham
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Marth is the big one because he slides so far. In general I just hold forward out of wave shine against sheik, marth, falcon, anyone that slides so that I reach them and people at higher levels generally di away during wave shines anyway so two birds and all that.

Yes :(
I play PAL, so Marth isn't an issue for me :p

Are you sure a walk isn't needed for Falcon? I feel like there is for me, when I don't do a walk, I can't true combo the waveshine.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
A couple questions about the up throw chain grab on fast fallers....

-does it start at 0%?
-are there differences between what percents it works against fox and falco?
-does it end at different percents depending on DI? And what percent does it end?
-what is the best way to end the chaingrab? I'm assuming upsmash/uptilt if they dont di, but is wavedash uptilt going to work with any di?
-what percents does it work against falcon?
-is jc grab actually needed? or is it just a lower lag move in case you miss?

thanks :)
 

Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
A couple questions about the up throw chain grab on fast fallers....

-does it start at 0%?
-are there differences between what percents it works against fox and falco?
-does it end at different percents depending on DI? And what percent does it end?
-what is the best way to end the chaingrab? I'm assuming upsmash/uptilt if they dont di, but is wavedash uptilt going to work with any di?
-what percents does it work against falcon?
-is jc grab actually needed? or is it just a lower lag move in case you miss?

thanks :)
Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCH3GTPHeU
 

Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
That vid answered none of those questions
A couple questions about the up throw chain grab on fast fallers....

-does it start at 0%?
-are there differences between what percents it works against fox and falco?
-does it end at different percents depending on DI? And what percent does it end?
-what is the best way to end the chaingrab? I'm assuming upsmash/uptilt if they dont di, but is wavedash uptilt going to work with any di?
-what percents does it work against falcon?
-is jc grab actually needed? or is it just a lower lag move in case you miss?

thanks :)
Sorry, I saw chaingrab and I automatically linked that video. It def answers some questions tho
1. Yes. I'm not entirely sure about Falco DI behind, but you can re grab Fox at 0% any DI.
2. No. ends at ~50% but the combos continue.
3. It ends at ~50% but you can regrab on DI away a few more times.
4. Again, see the video but uptilt on no DI and nair/regrab on side DI. Up smash at high % is guaranteed if they DI behind and in front of you. They can jump out of upsmash on no DI so it's better to up air/uptilt to upair.
5. It doesn't work vs Falcon. You may get a few regrabs on bad DI tho.
6. Just jc all your grabs with Fox.
 
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CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,025
Location
Washington
A couple questions about the up throw chain grab on fast fallers....

-does it start at 0%?
-are there differences between what percents it works against fox and falco?
-does it end at different percents depending on DI? And what percent does it end?
-what is the best way to end the chaingrab? I'm assuming upsmash/uptilt if they dont di, but is wavedash uptilt going to work with any di?
-what percents does it work against falcon?
-is jc grab actually needed? or is it just a lower lag move in case you miss?

thanks :)
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Up_throw
This was written by Kadano. You should JC grab.
 

~Twitch~

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,106
Location
cullowhee, nc western carolina university
I play PAL, so Marth isn't an issue for me :p

Are you sure a walk isn't needed for Falcon? I feel like there is for me, when I don't do a walk, I can't true combo the waveshine.
Yeah marth is kinda garbs in pal from what I've heard. Aerial mobility nerfs, no swag dair spikes, it's just a bad time lol.

Yeah I included falcon and yeah I feel the same way. If your full length wave shine is down though, as I think someone else pointed out too, you don't have to walk for as many characters though and certainly not falcon iirc.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
I play PAL, so Marth isn't an issue for me :p
It's pretty uniformly agreed that Marth is better vs Fox in PAL. Actually Marth has a better mu spread in general in PAL thanks to nerfs to other top chars.

Yeah marth is kinda garbs in pal from what I've heard. Aerial mobility nerfs, no swag dair spikes, it's just a bad time lol.
Fox nerfs hits us much harder than what PAL Marth nerfs do to him. Though the main improvement for Marth in the mu is that he is lighter and falls from shine, so shine doesn't reliably lead into anything.

Also the aerial mobility change for Marth is so small it's not really even noticeable, and very insignificant.
 

Astram

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
9
Location
New Jersey
Two questions:

1.) What are Fox's best get-up ledge options at 100+ damage? I generally go for :GCR:/:GCL: from ledge into a jump then Side-B, but it's been countered by Falco's D-air or F-Smash. IIRC rolls and general getup have lots of exploitable frames.

2.) Is there a list of characters Fox can and can't U-throw --> U-air? I was playing friendlies with someone and he'd always call me out if I tried it on certain characters so I'd love to know for future reference.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Two questions:

1.) What are Fox's best get-up ledge options at 100+ damage? I generally go for :GCR:/:GCL: from ledge into a jump then Side-B, but it's been countered by Falco's D-air or F-Smash. IIRC rolls and general getup have lots of exploitable frames.

2.) Is there a list of characters Fox can and can't U-throw --> U-air? I was playing friendlies with someone and he'd always call me out if I tried it on certain characters so I'd love to know for future reference.
1) Invincible ledge dash is situationally good, especially on yoshi's story because you can ledgedash onto the platform with invincibility. Also, rolling is good if you know you're opponent will not be positioned for a follow up. The ledgehop side b is almost always not going to be your best option, its fairly easy to punish. You can do a ledge hop nair if you can get the hitbox out faster than your opponent, but falco dair will have more priority. If you do the normal get up, try shining as soon as you are out of lag.

2)I'm not sure, but I would also like to see this list if it exists
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
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Hey I know this probably isn't the place to post this... but the social thread is a ghost town, and I don't know where else I would.

I made a thread a couple days ago (and thoroughly updated it today) about compiling a list of all tech skill that can be done with fox. I also added a section to my post about which skills new foxes should prioritize learning. If people could check it out and let me know whats missing/what can be fixed/what you don't agree with, that would be phenomenal! I really wanted something like this when I was a fox noob, so maybe we could build this up as a resource.

Also, if there is a better place for me to be posting this plea for help, let me know

oh yeah, and please send me links for tutorials for the skills that dont have them if you can!
 
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BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
Would anyone happen to know what percent upthrow>upsmash starts to be guaranteed regardless of di against spacies (and if it is a true combo against falcon)?
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
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norcal
It works at 0 vs spacies. If they DI behind you then you need to hit a pretty tight window with dash back->jc upsmash, but it works.

It is definitely guaranteed vs falcon, tho not at zero. I don't know when it starts but i'd guess ~20 or so.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
How can I make my wavelands and movement smoother with Fox??

:foxmelee:
The only answer is practice and lots of it. Get the 20xx hack pack if you don't have it, because it lets you go to a stage by yourself easily. But seriously, if you want that crispy lookin movement you see in videos, you need to just practice at least 20-30 mins a day and it will come slowly.

I guess real advice I would give would be to prioritize what you want to learn (i.e. Start with being able to short hop every time, then move on to having complete dash dance control, then move on to wavedashes, then wavelands, then cactuar dashes, etc.), and really try to master one thing before moving on to the next.
 

S£NPAI

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
162
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Birmingham, AL
Should I be waiting a half a second or so after Dair to Input a shine? I feel like if I don't my input doesn't take and I get stuck in crouch, also is it better to fastfall Dair or not? Thanks.
 
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BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
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PNW
Should I be waiting a half a second or so after Dair to Input a shine? I feel like if I don't my input doesn't take and I get stuck in crouch, also is it better to fastfall Dair or not? Thanks.
You should be doing the shine immediately out of ending lag of dair. If you have 20xx, you can set it to highlight fox green when he is in the neutral standing position. You should time the shine so there is no green. (I highly recommend you get 20xx if you don't have it).

My rule of thumb is to fastfall the dair if I'm unsure if it will hit, don't fastfall if I'm positive it will hit. This is because you can hit with more hit boxes if you don't fast fall it, therefore dealing more damage, so not fast falling is technically better. However, if you miss, then not fast falling makes you vulnerable for longer, and its better to be more safe than to risk it for an extra couple percent.
 
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CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
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Washington
My rule of thumb is to fastfall the dair if I'm unsure if it will hit, don't fastfall if I'm positive it will hit. This is because you can hit with more hit boxes if you don't fast fall it, therefore dealing more damage, so not fast falling is technically better. However, if you miss, then not fast falling makes you vulnerable for longer, and its better to be more safe than to risk it for an extra couple percent.
Fastfalling it makes it much harder to SDI out.
 

S£NPAI

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
162
Location
Birmingham, AL
You should be doing the shine immediately out of ending lag of dair. If you have 20xx, you can set it to highlight fox green when he is in the neutral standing position. You should time the shine so there is no green. (I highly recommend you get 20xx if you don't have it).

My rule of thumb is to fastfall the dair if I'm unsure if it will hit, don't fastfall if I'm positive it will hit. This is because you can hit with more hit boxes if you don't fast fall it, therefore dealing more damage, so not fast falling is technically better. However, if you miss, then not fast falling makes you vulnerable for longer, and its better to be more safe than to risk it for an extra couple percent.
What's the input for hitbox data in 20xx? Does Dair have the most end lag out of foxes aerials? If so I think I'm just used to nairs timing since I've practiced that more.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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Location
PNW
What's the input for hitbox data in 20xx? Does Dair have the most end lag out of foxes aerials? If so I think I'm just used to nairs timing since I've practiced that more.
I'm not sure what the input is, but one problem you might have is that there is more hitstun for each hit that connects (because its a multihit move), which makes it a different timing to l cancel, and can make it feel like you have to shine later than normal
 
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Pάρί

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
87
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San Antonio, Texas
What would be a way to practice without being able to play
I'm going out of town and I won't have anytime to practice when I'm there.

Can you guys link me some good fox things just to gain knowledge on the character, also any good informational videos or sets with fox in them. Anything fox related would help. Thank you :foxmelee:

Also do you guys have the double shine ringtone? I'm trying to find it but I can't seem to get it
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
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Washington
What's the input for hitbox data in 20xx? Does Dair have the most end lag out of foxes aerials? If so I think I'm just used to nairs timing since I've practiced that more.
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    • 04 = Repeat back to 01. *[third press]
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~Twitch~

Smash Master
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Messages
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cullowhee, nc western carolina university
What would be a way to practice without being able to play
I'm going out of town and I won't have anytime to practice when I'm there.
Generally if you don't have access to a cube and melee then the best thing to do is watch videos and study them for info. Anything recent is generally good for understanding the current meta and what fox is doing now especially since fox has only recently become really optimized. Any recent leffen vids except for like pax are really good material along with armada although he hasn't been as active recently. Mango's obviously good too for studying. After that it's pretty much who you wanna watch as they have different styles so you can watch whoever you feel like emulating the most between like sfat lucky silent wolf and the like.
 

g_f

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
30
Generally if you don't have access to a cube and melee then the best thing to do is watch videos and study them for info. Anything recent is generally good for understanding the current meta and what fox is doing now especially since fox has only recently become really optimized. Any recent leffen vids except for like pax are really good material along with armada although he hasn't been as active recently. Mango's obviously good too for studying. After that it's pretty much who you wanna watch as they have different styles so you can watch whoever you feel like emulating the most between like sfat lucky silent wolf and the like.
I actually feel like I improved the most after watching your sets lol.
 
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