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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Pάρί

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Okay I need help with the falco matchup, I think it's my absolute worst matchup. I feel like I lose the neutral game way to hard, and just can't deal with his lasers. How can I play the neutral game against falco?

Also how do I deal with his deal and what is the timing to powershield his lasers?
 
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Chainz

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How many frames are bair/nair strong for? Like how many actives frames before you get the weak hit?
Fox's nair/bair are both sex kicks, which means they are strongest the first frame they come out and lose strength with every active frame.
 

Jim Morrison

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Okay I need help with the falco matchup, I think it's my absolute worst matchup. I feel like I lose the neutral game way to hard, and just can't deal with his lasers. How can I play the neutral game against falco?

Also how do I deal with his deal and what is the timing to powershield his lasers?
Utilize platforms a good deal and learn to recognize his laser patterns.This is the absolutely most important thing in the Falco matchup. When you look at a scrubby Falco you'll notice there are certain positions and situations from which he will always shoot a laser. If you're all the way across the stage, he will shoot a laser. If you just teched away too far for him to reach, he will shoot a laser. These are obvious but there a much more subtle situations, like after landing from an empty double jump or something.
Once you're able to get a feel for the Falco Laser Pattern™, you can start working around it. If you know he's gonna do a laser, close the distance between the two of you. If he does it up close, try to interrupt him with a nair or a shine.

You MUST keep moving and not let yourself be overwhelmed by the lasers. Almost all lasers are predictable, so you should rarely be caught off-guard and unable to take advantage of the fact that he's using his time to shoot that laser. Once you get better you'll find that Falco's get better and better at lasering, but I think you first need to understand laser patterns.
 
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Jim Morrison

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Hey guys. First off to everyone in this thread: thank you for the wealth of knoweldge that yall drop on a daily basis, been following this thread for a while.

My tag is ZEN | ADVANCED, hailing from the Tristate region (NY/PA/NJ).
The start of my competitive career in my opinion was when I first learned to wavedash and L cancel in June 2014 and attended my first tournament very shortly after (Yes I am a documentary kid, and have been playing fox since the day I learned to wavedash lol).
For like 10-11 months I got beat up over and over again because I couldn't use fox at all. The character is hard as **** lol but like in the past 3 weeks I finally got most of the tech down and have been placing very well at all tristate locals (top 8 usually, behind DJ nintendo, moon, G$, Smuckers etc). My only notable win is Beerman AKA Lambchops.
I went to this great ~60 man local called Max's Celler last Sunday and also yesterday, got 9th last time and 7th yesterday.
Here is a pools match against a player called THX (he got 27th at Zenith 2014, so he's pretty good). I was 3rd seed in the pool of 7, he was 2nd seed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJ_pBGk6u0

Looking for critiques and comments! Yes besides the eternal "improve your tech skill" advice. I AM WORKING ON IT LOL. Also I know about unsafe aerials from far away. They are easily grabbed.
Whaddap man, I wanna give you that critique, but not now since it's 2 AM. I'll do it tomorrow, and if I don't because I forgot, send me a PM, because I do wanna get on it.
One thing I'll say right now is that you give him WAY too much free space. Examples are: 4:19, 4:42, 4:55 when he's on ledge??, 5:28, 5:52, 6:20. Granted, THX did a very poor job of using that space and most of the time got baited into something ****ty like a Nair that missed which you just grabbed or something, but giving that much space to a Fox can be really difficult to deal with.
 

Pάρί

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So i had a few questions about foxes up-throw up-air.

When i up throw a character how am i suppose to catch their DI with my up air? Ive seen people like leffen do it before but idk how. lol

Also im trying to make the up-throw, up-air as fast as i can, but at what point in foxes up throw can i jump to do the up air? I feel like i do the up-air late where it sometimes doesnt hit them
 
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Chainz

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So i had a few questions about foxes up-throw up-air.

When i up throw a character how am i suppose to catch their DI with my up air? Ive seen people like leffen do it before but idk how. lol

Also im trying to make the up-throw, up-air as fast as i can, but at what point in foxes up throw can i jump to do the up air?
If they got low Dmg, it should be easy to follow up. On high dmg, watch where they DI. Use wavedashes to catch them if they swing a bit far.

As for the second part of your question, i can't really answer that atm (on mobile), my bad.
 

Jim Morrison

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Hey guys. First off to everyone in this thread: thank you for the wealth of knoweldge that yall drop on a daily basis, been following this thread for a while.

My tag is ZEN | ADVANCED, hailing from the Tristate region (NY/PA/NJ).
The start of my competitive career in my opinion was when I first learned to wavedash and L cancel in June 2014 and attended my first tournament very shortly after (Yes I am a documentary kid, and have been playing fox since the day I learned to wavedash lol).
For like 10-11 months I got beat up over and over again because I couldn't use fox at all. The character is hard as **** lol but like in the past 3 weeks I finally got most of the tech down and have been placing very well at all tristate locals (top 8 usually, behind DJ nintendo, moon, G$, Smuckers etc). My only notable win is Beerman AKA Lambchops.
I went to this great ~60 man local called Max's Celler last Sunday and also yesterday, got 9th last time and 7th yesterday.
Here is a pools match against a player called THX (he got 27th at Zenith 2014, so he's pretty good). I was 3rd seed in the pool of 7, he was 2nd seed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJ_pBGk6u0

Looking for critiques and comments! Yes besides the eternal "improve your tech skill" advice. I AM WORKING ON IT LOL. Also I know about unsafe aerials from far away. They are easily grabbed.
Ok sooooo...

Next time you post a match, try to post one that's close, where you lose preferably, instead of a double 2-stock. While it's still possible to learn a lot from these matches, it requires a completely different approach. You can't just look at yourself and think "what could I have done better?" since you may not see it. Instead, you (and I) are gonna have to watch from THX's point of view and look at what HE did wrong and what he could have done, to spot YOUR flaws. Aight let's go.

0:04 - The first striking thing that already sets the whole pace for the match. You both drop down, except you do nothing and keep dashdancing. Look at it, THX had plenty of time to run in on you and Nair you after that Dair but instead wavedashed back and gave you ALL THAT SPACE. You even walked off the stage (don't do this please). What THX should have done here is recognize your crappy position after running off-stage, see your early double jump and intercept with n-air/u-air. Moreover, he shouldn't have backed off.
0:07 - Nice I love seeing this grab because I want all Foxes who still do this nair to get painfully 4-stocked.
0:11 - This is an issue of optimizing punishes. You do one U-throw, wait for the tech, U-smash. That's great. He DI's away and you have plenty of time to chase for a grab, instead you just U-smash. Why U-smash? Because you expected tech in place. Grab would have gotten that, and you would also be able to react to a tech in or tech away, and definitely to no-tech. Don't tech chase with U-smash when you don't have to, especially at low %, grab beats it anyday.
0:13 - Bad dair but you know this. You get U-thrown for it, ok. The part that bothers me is that you don't tech it. This signifies that you didn't expect the grab, which seems to me to think you thought the D-air would hit the whole time. If you want to get out of punishes sooner, you have to let go of the fact that you'll hit and recognize your miss and be prepared immediately to get defensive. For the U-throw this means a tech roll to the right for this case, or maybe good DI for U-smash at high %. Recognize your misses.
0:23 - You already had a scout on his habit that he'll jump off with an aerial from the side platform, as you just punished his dair before. However on this nair you completely retreat. One thing you could have done is pretend to run away and retreat under the platform and let him do a Bair with forward momentum, or just space your grab for the Nair. You gave him all this space with the lasers that he (sadly) didn't use.
0:30 - Jab U-smash doesn't work on Fox. If you wanna cheese, try jab grab. It was a pretty costly mistake.
0:40 - Ledgedash U-smash is pretty good but definitely questionable here. He was above you, and you relied on him jumping in to it. A much better option would have been ledgedash full hop Bair with forward momentum, since this hits him (shield maybe?) and gives you center stage. If you miss that U-smash, you can get bodied for it.
0:47 - You do a ledgedash and this is the 2nd time that THX covers the platform for you to waveland onto it or something. He has also done his own waveland to the side platform from the ledge twice. He probably has a fixation on that and it would be interesting to see if he goes there more often from the ledge, since he also thinks this is your ledge tool.
Ok now look at the position. He just whiffed an aerial ABOVE you. He's on a platform above Fox. And what do you do? You run away :'(. Try an U-air or just dash dance to wait for his falling Bair.
0:53 - Next time you see THX tell him to stop doing this Nair or read this.
0:58 - This happens all the time. Tech in place shine. What you have to do is space your body so that your grab hits, but your body doesnt get hit by the shine. You were actually starting up a dash so it might have been a missed input.
1:23 - That was a bad nair despite it hitting. That should have been dash dance grabbed.
1:27 - I'm sad to see that THX didn't try to punish that double jump backwards with an aerial. Why? Because you dropped through a platform. When you do that, it's very difficult to still input an aerial so you had to land without covering yourself. I definitely would have ran in and grab/aerial. THX was probably scared you'd punish him for the missed grab he just did, but that's his fault for not actually looking at you.
2:04 - Got 'emmm. He went to the side platform again from the ledge.
2:09 - Where was the shine after the Bair? Just pressuring there would have been great since you'd push him off the ledge.
2:23 - You did this three times and none of them worked. He double jumps and you try to cover his landing with a Nair. Another possibility instead of nair here is a running Shine. I really want to see more running shines actually.

Okay this was just the first match and already way more elaborate than I wanted, so I'll end it here.
 

tauKhan

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How many frames are bair/nair strong for? Like how many actives frames before you get the weak hit?
Both moves are strong during the 4 first hitbox frames, frames 4-7.

Fox's nair/bair are both sex kicks, which means they are strongest the first frame they come out and lose strength with every active frame.
False, the hitboxes don't weaken gradually. There's only 2 hitbox strengths for both moves.
 

Chainz

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Both moves are strong during the 4 first hitbox frames, frames 4-7.



False, the hitboxes don't weaken gradually. There's only 2 hitbox strengths for both moves.
If it's false where yours source man?

Here's part of mine:

Page: http://smashboards.com/guides/guide-to-ace-arwing-pilot-fox-mccloud-updated-for-2015.100/

Heres what the guide says about the nair and bair. I highlighted some of the text.

Nair:
a. Neutral–Aerial: Flying Kick[FM21]
http://gfycat.com/AggressiveUnluckyDinosaur
Button: A (neutral–aerial)
Damage: 6 – 12%; a hit with the later frames of this move (a “soft–hit” neutral–aerial) that is highly staled can inflict as little as 4%
Speed: Very high
Priority: Relatively high
Range: Medium–low
Knockback: Medium
Total frames: 49
Hit frames: 4 – 31
IASA: 42
Auto–cancel: <3 37>
Land lag: 15 frames
L–canceled: 7 frames
Hitlag: 7 frames; 6 frames when stale
Shield stun: 14 frames; 12 frames when staleThis kick is interesting in that Fox’s foot stays out for quite a while, giving the move a large chance of hitting a foe. Average damage and very fast come–out time comprise this move, Fox’s basic aerial attack. Note that the damage and knockback that this move inflicts decrease with the amount of time that Fox has his foot out; thus, the strongest attack will occur at the very beginning of this move. As such, you can change the timing at which you connect with this move in order to emphasize killing and forcing your opponent off–stage (with earlier, stronger hits) or comboing into grabs or up–smashes (with later, “softer” hits, which are particularly useful in stringing together combos on floatier opponents and in preventing your adversary from escaping a combo prematurely).

Bair:
c. Back–Aerial: Reverse Spin Kick[FM23]
http://gfycat.com/ZealousLiquidDuck
Button: Away Tilt + A (Away C–Stick; back–aerial)
Damage: 8 – 15%; a hit with the later frames of this move (a “soft–hit” back–aerial) that is highly staled can inflict as little as 4%
Speed: Very high
Priority: High
Range: Medium
Knockback: Medium
Total frames: 39
Hit frames: 4 – 19
IASA: 38
Auto–cancel: <3 24>
Land lag: 20 frames
L–canceled: 10 frames
Hitlag: 8 frames; 6 frames when stale
Shield stun: 16 frames; 12 frames when stale
=============================================
This guide pretty much explains it man. If you still don't agree you can ask Hylian, he knows way more about this than me.
 
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Rachman

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Well you could always look in masterhand to see there are only 2 strengths or just know from xp. I just don't know how to find how long the hitbox is strong for in masterhand lol. Thanks @ T tauKhan
 

Chainz

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@ Chainz Chainz My source is mainly this page http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Neutral_aerial
I can't guarantee that it's completely accurate, so the hitbox lengths might be off. However I also looked up the hitboxes on the hitbox spreadsheet which you can find here: http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3bbdaf/toomais_hitbox_collection_strong_bads_knockback/
This actually hella interesting. Hmm... maybe I'm missing something here.

I appreciate you showing me this man, Didn't know about this two dmg for both aerials. Not really sure if it's right tho, cause it doesn't really make any sense from what i've been told/learned at least. **** it, I'll figure this out later, Lol.

Btw there might be a typo on that spreadsheet, 1st Tab:1466, says later part of the (clean) bair does 9% dmg. Shouldn't it be 15%?
 

tauKhan

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No, the bair has different hitboxes as well, the one on his front foot is weaker. Actually forgot that myself.
 
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Jim Morrison

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Whaddap man, I wanna give you that critique, but not now since it's 2 AM. I'll do it tomorrow, and if I don't because I forgot, send me a PM, because I do wanna get on it.
One thing I'll say right now is that you give him WAY too much free space. Examples are: 4:19, 4:42, 4:55 when he's on ledge??, 5:28, 5:52, 6:20. Granted, THX did a very poor job of using that space and most of the time got baited into something ****ty like a Nair that missed which you just grabbed or something, but giving that much space to a Fox can be really difficult to deal with.
To come back to this, watch this bit by Tafo on PP vs Armada
https://youtu.be/pNy-8vbxgHs?t=18m26s
The whole thing is a great watch, but around 18 mins he explains why it is sooo bad to give that much free space away.
 

Diabolical PIe

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Hey guys, quick shield-pressure question. I sometimes see people using drill-shines on shields and not getting punished for it. Are the early hitboxes of the move strong enough to induce enough shield stun to beat out standard grab OOS or something? I usually just get grabbed any time I try it. Do I just need to do it later? Sorry if this sounds dumb, I just don't fully understand this move on shield because of its multi-hit properties.
 

Rachman

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Hey guys, quick shield-pressure question. I sometimes see people using drill-shines on shields and not getting punished for it. Are the early hitboxes of the move strong enough to induce enough shield stun to beat out standard grab OOS or something? I usually just get grabbed any time I try it. Do I just need to do it later? Sorry if this sounds dumb, I just don't fully understand this move on shield because of its multi-hit properties.
Pretty sure it's -6 unstaled on shield if you fast fall it properly. Meaning you have a frame of leniency to shine after to beat shield grab (since shine is invincible and the fastest come out frame 7)
 

tauKhan

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Yeah, with perfect execution drill is -6 on shield. However since there's gaps between the hitboxes, the frame advantage ranges from -6 to -8. So it's hard to avoid getting grabbed. Also many fast OoS options outright beat dair, and there's often quite a bit of time to react against it, so I advice not using drill on shield unless you know your opponent is bad at punishing it.
 
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20XXlivingroom

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I recommend creating your own style. You can't change your thought pattern to be someone else's but you can study what can be considered optimal in the situation. Even still the "optimal option" may not always be the best choice if you are unable to execute. There is still a lot of room for error.
 

Rachman

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If I upthrow a spacie/falcon onto a plat, how can I cover tech in place/missed tech with upair while still covering tech rolls to either direction? Just full jump falling up air or sh uair? If either, which one is more lenient?
 

Jim Morrison

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Full jump falling U-air, since it's a short hop you hit the ground and the same time, just changing the timing of your landing. You can't ACTUALLY cover tech rolls according to the frame data, but you'll be able to still react and chase them down without them doing much retaliation except Falco shining
 

Pάρί

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Okay so ive always heard people talk about someone putting pressure on another while playing, or lets say Hax someone said he was putting on his "pressure" when he was playing. What exactly do they mean? How do you put pressure on someone in game?
 

f00

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He could just mean when the other person loses neutral and need to find their footing after you punish. Marth in particular, I think, has a hard time when he loses his footing. You can kind of just spam nair at him until he does.

Are there any good resources for the punish game besides that Kira video? Particularly on Falcon and Sheik.
 
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Spoice

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Okay so ive always heard people talk about someone putting pressure on another while playing, or lets say Hax someone said he was putting on his "pressure" when he was playing. What exactly do they mean? How do you put pressure on someone in game?
Basically forcing them to do something. So for example, I could pressure you with lasers by constantly firing them at you, this would more likely make you approach me.
 

CeLL

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So what is the consensus on shine -> illusion on Luigi (maybe ICs?)? It IS a combo. The input is just like a double shine except you switch from down to left/right on the control stick between B's.
 

Soupeschleg

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So what is the consensus on shine -> illusion on Luigi (maybe ICs?)? It IS a combo. The input is just like a double shine except you switch from down to left/right on the control stick between B's.
I think it's super good
free upair = kill most of the time especially since it works at stupid high percent
although I still think upthrowing Luigi then baiting the nair is the better way to look for a kill in the matchup
but side-b is definitely swaggy and shows that you have a grasp on the mu (even if you don't) which can make the Luigi second guess choosing his standard options
 

Berble

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what are the optimal follow ups for sheik on fd at 0? all i can find that i know works is utilt or sh uair on no di, nair on forward di (leads to nothing) and bair on back di (also leads to nothing)
 

Spoice

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I've recently learned how to waveshine, and I was just wondering if it the game considers it a true combo? I do it on falcon in training mode and it never says the consecutive hits are two, but whenever I put the computer to attack, it doesn't. Is it just that the timing between each waveshine is too small for the opponent to attack, or the computer is too stupid to attack and I'm doing the inputs too slow? (not sure if it matters, but I play PAL)
 

Snorlaxes

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I have a question relating to shining out of Marth's chaingrab. At SSC, there were two instances during Winners' Finals that intrigued me. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PlJ5w5-lWA

At 2:33, M2K upthrows Leffen at 21%, putting him at 25% and Leffen does slight DI behind and shines out. I'm not sure, but maybe it has something to do with M2K doing a turn-around grab instead of a dash > pivot grab?

Later, at 5:18, a very similar situation happens - Leffen is thrown at 19%, goes to 23%, and DIs so that it's ambiguous which side of Marth he's on. This time, M2K starts to turn, then shields, putting him back in his original direction. Leffen shines his shield and the combo continues.

Are both of these situations a result of M2K's lack of dash > pivot grabs or is there something specific happening regarding 23-25%? Is M2K reacting to his own error with the shield or making a read on a similar situation? It seems like an awfully small window to purely react to and I don't see the benefit of shield instead of just re-grabbing his usual way.
 

Spoice

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So I've been trying to use jab reset more recently, but i've noticed sometimes when I do jab with fox, the opponent just rolls up or does a get up attack. The timing for my input feels the same for when I get a jab reset, but why is it that sometimes they don't do a forced get up attack? Is it the percentage or what?
 

Jim Morrison

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They buffer input the get-up attack or the roll.
If they hold A when you jab, they getup attack. If they hold back when you get-up attack they buffer the roll.
 

Spoice

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They buffer input the get-up attack or the roll.
If they hold A when you jab, they getup attack. If they hold back when you get-up attack they buffer the roll.
So I'm guessing actual players do this as well? Would it be better to tech chase in tournament then?
 

Soupeschleg

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They buffer input the get-up attack or the roll.
If they hold A when you jab, they getup attack. If they hold back when you get-up attack they buffer the roll.
for real? never heard that.
How are top players getting jab reset at all if all you have to do is buffer left, right, A, or B? Why is smash DI'ing the jab a skill to learn if you can just buffer some other getup option?
 

Comet7

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at low % you can't buffer stuff out of jab resets. some attacks like pichu/pikachu's jab will never give that opportunity because they don't have any kbg. smash di is good because if you don't do it, you will be restricted to normal getup options which people can cover on reaction. watch wizzrobe vs m2k at WTFox to see why it's really useful.
 
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