Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[thegreatkazoo]

If you voted Pro-Ban, you're probably a democrate... lol.

I'm a liberal atheist Democrat and I voted anti-ban.

You sir, have a ticket on the fail boat.

 

[DarkPikmin]

This vote will be the toughest in SWF... I just hope we can all reach an agreement >____>

 

[eLantern]

If you voted Anti-Ban, you probably main MK... lol.

Touche.

However, I don't play Brawl anymore. Favor playing Melee instead.

Brawl characters I did play with were...

Meta Knight (dooh)
Pitt
Fox
Lucario (MAIN)
Marth
Pikachu
Shiek/Zelda
Toon Link
Zero Suite Samus
Peach
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game & Watch

 

[Vyse]

Quit the spam

 

[Bimz]

A vote for anti ban is a vote for Palin

 

[eLantern]

whats a democrate?

you never saw that.

 

[Overclassed]

 

[Shugo-Chan]

If you voted Anti-Ban, you probably main MK... lol.

This is true lol.

 

[eLantern]

I'm a liberal atheist Democrat and I voted anti-ban.

You sir, have a ticket on the fail boat.

just because you are atheist does not mean you have to be lefty. as for being proud of being liberal in these times... shame on you. as for voting anti-ban... good for you, signs of reasoning and logic. the backbone of conservatism.

 

[eLantern]

Quit the spam

sorry. no more.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

sorry. no more.

Double post, fail @$$#@t.

 

[ShinoBee]

Please guys, think about the community, and think about your vote! MK has a right to stay! :D As shown in this lovely visual of course!

 

[Master Raven]

if you voted to ban mk you probably main ROB

oooooooo

 

[Clai]

If you voted Anti-Ban, you probably main MK... lol.

I'm extremely anit-ban and I main Ganon. lolufail.

The point of Brawl, all of Smash, all of competitive fighting, is to win. KOs are not the only way to win.

If you want to win by having the most stocks/least % when time runs out, you have to delibrately avoid contact for as much as possible; and delibrately avoiding contact, under the SBR ruleset, is stalling (and banned).

If being on the ledge is a powerful defensive spot, and you have the lead, meaning that you don't have to approach, what's the difference between standing on the stage and chillin on the ledge? If it's a powerful defensive tool, isn't just a more powerful shield, spotdodge, etc.? Why does a specific defense need to be banned?

Because chillin on the ledge serves the same purpose as staying on the stage and just running around avoiding contact as much as possible. Both are examples of stalling. At least on the stage, you don't become invincible unless you're spot-dodging/air-dodging/rolling. The ledge gives you seconds of invulnerability, which add up to more and more time avoiding conflict as long as you abuse the ledge.

Unfortunately, planking (both ledge and air) is looked down upon my our community, and is "soft banned" in a sense because of it. Thus, we won't truly know how anything is affected by planking until it becomes something that people will do more often, rather than in times of dire need.

There's no easier way to put this... your community is filled with scrubs if people don't use a strategy because it's 'looked down upon,' and not because of anything regarding playing to win.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why are trying to hold a percent lead when the point of Brawl, all of Smash, is to KO your opponents? Holding a percent lead for the last minute of a match is understandable, but playing the game just to keep a percent lead for 3, 4, 5 minutes is unncessary and makes the game unplayable. That's probably what the rulemakers had in mind when they banned stalling in the first place.

Yes, being on the ledge is a powerful defensive spot, but it holds no value as an offensive tool, as it completely takes away your ground options. Running toward the ledge when the position advantage is neutral makes no sense at all. You aren't gaining anything in terms of getting closer to killing your opponent, so the only point I see in doing that is just stalling out the clock. That's why I think abusing the ledge for no purpose other than keeping yourself from getting gimped and/or taking away the pressure from your opponent to return to the stage should be banned under stalling. This applies to all characters too, not just MK.

As for the matchups, if planking ends up being a really effective strategy against certain characters, then more people will start to use the strategy andit will re-write matchup discussions. We'll see how many characters are truly affected by planking.

Because ultimately, a percent lead is just as effective in gaining victory when the clock runs out.

If you wanna know what they intended, read how they define stalling in the same ruleset.


It was basically a specific application of the principal of "immiediatly ban-worthy glitches".

Immediately Ban-worthy Glitches

There are some things so extreme that they can be banned without much testing. These include glitches that crash the game or have radical effects, such as blanking out the opponent’s entire screen, removing his characters, units, or resources from the game, and so forth. Glitches so extreme that they undeniably end or prevent gameplay are worthy of being banned.

That's all the criteria bans, nothing more nothing less (though it does extend to exploits such as peach's wall-stalling for example).


If we start talking about overcentralization, you can easily explain that from this criteria, once a percent lead is achieved, it's automatic victory. It's a fundamentally overcentralizing tactic.

There are of course, other reasons to ban glitches like these, but the fact that it falls on the extreme end of overcentralization serves.


Now, why not INTENDED infinite stalling?


Because, quite frankly, it doesn't work. Unlike in melee (ganondorf), there is no method of planking that actually undeniably ends gameplay. Your opponent always has the ability to interact, either through hitting you when you're not invincible, or ledge-stealing.


Therefore, planking REALLY works like this:

1. You gain a percent lead.
2. You plank.
3. You opponent is forced to approach because if he doesn't he loses.
4. You take advantage of the fact that he's attacking you from a position where you have much better options to punish the attack.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until you win.


So, the point is, unless it actually WORKS, it doesn't fall under the stalling criteria.

Infinite stalls of other games are quite irrelevant, considering Smash has a totally different physics engine.

Regardless of the physics engine, infinite invincibility is infinite invincibility.

Other examples of the same such as blanking out your opponent's screen, causing your opponent to permanently lose control of their character/empire/team/whatever, unless it's functionally an insta-death (which is dealt with separately).

It doesn't matter whether you're playing smash, street fighter, Starcraft, or any other competitive game, this is a universal standard.

Would you mind clarifying how the IDC "overcentralizes by proven attribute"? I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

Btw, statuatory is spelled "statutory".

Again, it's fact that it's an infinite stall, and infinite stalls are overcentralizing by their nature.

There are other reasons that things like infinite stalls are immediately banworthy, however, the fact that they are overcentralizing by nature is most relevant to the discussion.

 

[Clai]

Because ultimately, a percent lead is just as effective in gaining victory when the clock runs out.

If you wanna know what they intended, read how they define stalling in the same ruleset.




Therefore, planking REALLY works like this:

1. You gain a percent lead.
2. You plank.
3. You opponent is forced to approach because if he doesn't he loses.
4. You take advantage of the fact that he's attacking you from a position where you have much better options to punish the attack.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until you win.


So, the point is, unless it actually WORKS, it doesn't fall under the stalling criteria.

If you want to win by having the most stocks/least % when time runs out, you have to delibrately avoid contact for as much as possible; and delibrately avoiding contact, under the SBR ruleset, is stalling (and banned).



Because chillin on the ledge serves the same purpose as staying on the stage and just running around avoiding contact as much as possible. Both are examples of stalling. At least on the stage, you don't become invincible unless you're spot-dodging/air-dodging/rolling. The ledge gives you seconds of invulnerability, which add up to more and more time avoiding conflict as long as you abuse the ledge.

If you happened to not catch this, my post responding to MarkoX's questions just happen to almost exactly cover your concerns as well.

 

[Sosuke]

Please guys, think about the community, and think about your vote! MK has a right to stay! :D As shown in this lovely visual of course!

The origin of my avatar has been revealed!

I'm extremely anit-ban and I main Ganon. lolufail

I hope you're joking.

 

[kr3wman]

I main Falcon and I'm anti ban.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Hey Iam not ready to start an arguement or some other BS today.

me neither, lets go get some KFC and call it a poll

 

[Exceladon City]

if you voted to ban mk you probably main ROB

oooooooo

It's HOPELESS!!!!!!!!

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you happened to not catch this, my post responding to MarkoX's questions just happen to almost exactly cover your concerns as well.

My response dealt with your response's concerns that you pointed out to him as well.


Again, reread how stalling is defined in the SBR ruleset, it's not about "attempting to avoid combat so you can stall the timer", it's about SUCCEEDING in it, by gaining indefinite invincibility either through actual invincibility or through a position that makes you untouchable.

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

This the critical points are "making the game unplayable", and the example given, the only "positions". that are bannable, are ones that prevent your opponent from doing anything.

As I pointed out before, this is basically paraphrasing Sirlin's section on "immediately ban-worthy glitches" which I cited before.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Clai, you are horribly unfunny.

He is a marvelous troll what are you talking about

 

[Dark 3nergy]

If you voted Anti-Ban, you probably main MK... lol.

i guess they found us out then sasuke, welp time to put up our mask and cape

Please guys, think about the community, and think about your vote! MK has a right to stay! :D As shown in this lovely visual of course!

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29935

atm i have created 37 glorious meta knights, more tomorrow

 

[MXblaze]

It seems taht everyone who mains marth(besides makehaze), rob and peach want him banned

 

['V']

It seems taht everyone who mains marth(besides makehaze), rob and peach want him banned

And people in the South for some strange reason.. I'm not one of those people though.

 

[Clai]

My response dealt with your response's concerns that you pointed out to him as well.


Again, reread how stalling is defined in the SBR ruleset, it's not about "attempting to avoid combat so you can stall the timer", it's about SUCCEEDING in it, by gaining indefinite invincibility either through actual invincibility or through a position that makes you untouchable.

This the critical points are "making the game unplayable", and the example given, the only "positions". that are bannable, are ones that prevent your opponent from doing anything.

As I pointed out before, this is basically paraphrasing Sirlin's section on "immediately ban-worthy glitches" which I cited before.

Just like picking Sonic and going under the stage and using Homing Attacks, it's not about whether the player SUCCEEDS at stalling for 6-7 minutes, its the intent of doing so. It's quite clear after about 2 minutes or so that you're going to make it as unplayable as possible for the other opponent. Running across the stage to avoid any and all contact is as pretty close to unplayable as you're going to make it. As for the 'succeeding in making the game unplayable' bit, of course people aren't going to care if someone tries to run away the whole match but keeps getting hit; the aggressive player is just better and it would certainly be 'playable' for both combatants.

You can attempt to be untouchable by running across the stage and dodging any attacks your opponent throws at you. After going through any significant amount of time of having to go through that, I'm sure that anyone would make the case for stalling, even if ledges have nothing to do with it.

I hope you're joking.

I fully legit, 100% main Ganondorf. I don't know why you think I'm joking about that.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I fully legit, 100% main Ganondorf. I don't know why you think I'm joking about that.

people need not question the king of evil and his godly thunder stomp

 

[ShinoBee]

The origin of my avatar has been revealed!

Uhhh yeah 'cuz you went to my blog on AllisBrawl? LOL Yes, that was my argument lolol.

If you're wondering, the artist's site: http://rocketcandy.uunyan.com/

It's in Japanese, sorry yo.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29935

atm i have created 37 glorious meta knights, more tomorrow

You're so cool. <3

 

[Sosuke]

I fully legit, 100% main Ganondorf. I don't know why you think I'm joking about that.

...
Not about that.

Did you look at my post?
Did you see how it was mocking the post above mine in an attempt to stop foolish thoughts like that?


IK mean, come on. >_>

 

['V']

I fully legit, 100% main Ganondorf. I don't know why you think I'm joking about that.

Because anyone that mains someone other than Meta Knight HAS to vote pro-ban. *sarcasm*

 

[Clai]

...
Not about that.

Did yo look at my post?
Did you see how it was mocking the post above mine in an attempt to stop foolish thoughts like that?

Yeah yeah, I got it now. It's just that with Ganon, it may take people some time to realize that I seriously use him in tournaments and aren't just trolling. He is Ganon, after all.

If anything, what I said only further proves how rediculous making those kind of blanket statements is, since you never know what kind of support each side is going to get.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just like picking Sonic and going under the stage and using Homing Attacks, it's not about whether the player SUCCEEDS at stalling for 6-7 minutes, its the intent of doing so. It's quite clear after about 2 minutes or so that you're going to make it as unplayable as possible for the other opponent. Running across the stage to avoid any and all contact is as pretty close to unplayable as you're going to make it. As for the 'succeeding in making the game unplayable' bit, of course people aren't going to care if someone tries to run away the whole match but keeps getting hit; the aggressive player is just better and it would certainly be 'playable' for both combatants.

You can attempt to be untouchable by running across the stage and dodging any attacks your opponent throws at you. After going through any significant amount of time of having to go through that, I'm sure that anyone would make the case for stalling, even if ledges have nothing to do with it.

Again, look at the definitions, this is a very statutory thing,, intent doesn't matter here, effect does.


That's actually why competitive gaming uses the ideas of Sirlin in the first place, it's very clear-cut, there's no "maybe he's doing something illegal, maybe he's not", if that situation comes up, the technique is either not discrete or not enforceable, and therefore can't be banned.

This limits the need for judges and allows people to use every tool at their disposal to win as long as it's legal, because they know what is legal and what isn't.


Both homing stall and just running accross the stage are phail strategies

Homing stall because it doesn't lock on if you just spotdodge, running across the stage because I will hit you unless it's a circular stage (which are banned to make running away like that not be an effective strategy).

That's why they're not stalling, a stupid strategy that sucks the fun out of the game is a stupid strategy, nobody will use it.

 

['V']

Hey, at least the poll's almost up to 3000 votes.

 

[TK Wolf]

I'm not saying this to offend, but to legitimately point out:
I don't think there have been any new arguments since a few pages after the first post... mostly just people repeating / re-explaining themselves or others. Shouldn't this be locked by now? The debate really isn't going anywhere but in circles. D:


Edit: I guess more accurately. Perhaps there should be a call for people who haven't voted to cast their votes before some deadline. And then lock. Basically, it seems to be at a point where neither side has any more fuel to possibly convince anyone on the fence or the other side, so it's probably time to let people just cast their vote and wrap up, ya?

 

[vato_break]

Everything that needs to be said has already been mentioned no use in keeping this open..

 

[CT Chia]

Everyone please read this:
http://www.nintendoplayers.com/praxis/mkban2.doc

It was linked to in the proban's write up but I feel some people might have missed it. Please read this analysis on MK's moveset and post your thoughts about it.

 

[AvaricePanda]

New things can be said. The whole EDC thing didn't start for a while into the thread.

At the very least, you can try to sway individual's minds while seeing for sure which side you're on. Not all arguments are concise. Both arguments in the OP are flawed, as are many in the front pages (as are many now). At least by debating, individuals can wring out inconsistencies in their own thinking or whatever.

 

[fkacyan]

Jeez, I picked an awful time to go on vacation; WoW has a major content patch I miss for 5 days, this argument gets a little less intelligent... Something tells me I'm gonna have missed a job offer, too.

Not particularly surprised the poll hasn't moved, percentage-wise.

@ Chibo: Seriously, if I gave that any credence I would have commented on it earlier. All it proves is that MK is the best character, not that he is broken.

 

[TK Wolf]

Dude... Chibo.... I just made a comment about people repeating arguments, and you follow up by reposting something from the opening post of the thread?

X_X

 

[Clai]

Again, look at the definitions, this is a very statutory thing,, intent doesn't matter here, effect does.

Do not assume that I'm ignorant and don't read about the rules/definitions/whatnot before I post. It's very clear that we're both looking at this particular rule in a different way and since we're both not TO's, neither interpretation is more right than the other.

Both homing stall and just running accross the stage are phail strategies

Homing stall because it doesn't lock on if you just spotdodge, running across the stage because I will hit you unless it's a circular stage (which are banned to make running away like that not be an effective strategy).

That's why they're not stalling, a stupid strategy that sucks the fun out of the game is a stupid strategy, nobody will use it.

^^^ For some reason, when I read the rules I thought the Sonic Homing Attack stall was specifically included as banned. My bad.

As for the running across the stage stalling, the only part that matters is if they SUCCEED in avoiding all contact without even resorting to the ledges for 7 minutes? If you say, 'Oh you can't just run away and avoid all contact, I'm just going to hit you, its an lolfail strategy," I can turn around and say "Oh you can't just abuse the ledge because I'm going to hit you, its an lolfail strategy" back at you. The point is, its the intent that matters, and if it succeeds for any significant amount of time, it's stalling. So then why would you even try a strategy if you know you might get DQ'd for it if you succeed in doing it? That's just idiotic.