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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


  • Total voters
    3,010
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

superkid

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
Messages
46
If you troll like this you become as bad as him. At least provide a well reasoned, strucktured, and supported argument as to why he gets the moron of the day award. Such as: "Clouderz gets the moron of the day award because of his utter inability to see the reason in any of the counter arguments presented. He also refuses to admits when he is wrong such as when he said that its the player not the game and was disproved. He counter point consisted of name calling and telling us all we suck" Thats how you troll effectively :p
Lol @ this dude trying to act smart haha i can tell

on topic i voted pro ban.. i mean comeone.. mk is way too overpowered all the people that are voting no are either

-mk users
-suck ups
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
1,169
Location
Dallas GA
Don't respond to the trolls, just report them and carry on.
All the reports in this and any other General/Tactical discussion thread go to my Email.

And that doesn't make me very happy :mad:

EDIT:

Also, to the other mods who may catch this, feel free to infract users that break the rules in this thread on my behalf. That includes Trolls and Flamers.
:flame:
Sorry Sir.... It just feels that you guys have much more important things to do with your time, and trying to talk to the trolls, although normally a futile effort, feels like a better option. If you really want them to simply be reported, that can be done. Thank you for your help in advanced, Sir.

And Superkid, if you want to try to call someone out on trying to act smart, try not to use a post that actually was Smart. People have their own reasons for baning and protecting Metaknight. It's not quite that simple.

:flame:
 

cutter

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,316
Location
Getting drilled by AWPers
So I get off work, log onto Smashboards, and I see this thread pop up at roughly 30 pages. I read through both arguments in the OP and hit refresh and I get like a dozen more pages. ****.

I finally read through everything, but I probably shouldn't have because there was just way too much garbage from both sides taking up unnecessary space :/

I'll probably post more on this tomorrow when it isn't almost 2 in the morning.
 

Fraser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
259
Location
Edmonton
Lol @ this dude trying to act smart haha i can tell

on topic i voted pro ban.. i mean comeone.. mk is way too overpowered all the people that are voting no are either

-mk users
-suck ups
I admit I was trying to be funny and help out a fellow probanner troll. But he was seriously ignoring our arguments then insulting us whne we countered his. Really... Troooooooool
 

Kinzer

Mammy
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
10,397
Location
Las Vegas, NV
NNID
Kinzer
3DS FC
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Oh man you know what else I just noticed?

This is in the GBD.

@#$%.

Then again a lot of trash has been recently popping up in Tactical... still would've been better to put it there instead of here....
 

Fatmanonice

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
18,432
Location
Somewhere... overthinking something
NNID
Fatmanonice
Wrong.. People should be rewarded for their preference in their characters, not punished. Especially if they've put that amount of time and practice into that one character. I've heard this statement many a time: "this game was meant to be played how you want to." This also applies to people who pick their character. Sure this has nothing to do with competition whatsoever, but its definitely more than enough to justify a player's feelings on the subject. If M2K wants to quit because his character got banned, then obviously he feels that the game won't be as fun and feels justified in doing so. If he put that much time and effort into a different character, I'm sure he'd still do quite well, but he'd have to do that all over again if Meta Knight gets banned, which (in my humble opinion) is just not worth it for this game.
For starters, under the competitive mindset, fun is not part of equation; you play to win, nothing more. Second, you express the idea that the harder you work at something, the more you should be rewarded for doing so. This is an ideal and, truth be told, is not how things usually work in the real world. Heck, just ask about any low tier character main on this forum about that to get a reality check on that statement. Basically what I'm arguing is that, in a sense, M2K is not a true competitive player if he quits based on Metaknight getting banned.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
1,169
Location
Dallas GA
:flame:
Just as a way to start up convesation, who all is or isn't viable

1) With Metaknight in the game,

2) Against Metaknight himself,

3) And with Metaknight Gone?

:flame:
 

ZeroStar.hX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
7
Location
Seattle, WA
Once MK is banned, soon they will be like OMG GnW has alien bairs unlike anyone else!!!! IC have alien GRABS that **** EVERYTHING.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
:flame:
Sorry Sir.... It just feels that you guys have much more important things to do with your time, and trying to talk to the trolls, although normally a futile effort, feels like a better option. If you really want them to simply be reported, that can be done. Thank you for your help in advanced, Sir.


Don't worry about it mate.

If you feel there is a point to be made by responding to something they may say, by all means go ahead, but I would still like Trolls to be reported. Just don't address the integrity of the post, or make a troll of yourself.

I am sure you are well aware of where the line is :)
 

'V'

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,377
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
For starters, under the competitive mindset, fun is not part of equation; you play to win, nothing more. Second, you express the idea that the harder you work at something, the more you should be rewarded for doing so. This is an ideal and, truth be told, is not how things usually work in the real world. Heck, just ask about any low tier character main on this forum about that to get a reality check on that statement. Basically what I'm arguing is that, in a sense, M2K is not a true competitive player if he quits based on Metaknight getting banned.
Oh I know about low tier character mains. I'm one of them. I'm a Zelda player in both Melee and Brawl.

And let me tell you, it sucks seeing all my hard work for years go to waste as an opponent who uses any high tier character has a much easier time than I have with her, which is why I quit playing competitively. It's stupid and downright unfair and I feel cheated every time I think about it. Granted I'm still a very good player in Louisiana even though I don't play anymore, it's still really hard to consistently win with Zelda, so I know how it feels.
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
1,169
Location
Dallas GA
Once MK is banned, soon they will be like OMG GnW has alien bairs unlike anyone else!!!! IC have alien GRABS that **** EVERYTHING.
:flame:
We can actually tell that you read the first op. I give you kudos. Unfortunately, the Slippery-Slope Argument, while being one that I considered valid myself, doesn't exactly work. Not to mentin that people are more likely to notice Snake and Dedede and Falco more than Mr. Game & Watch, and the Ice Climber's grab range is so pathetic the argument against banning their infinite is simply "don't get grabbed", which is actually a vald argument.

But again, I thank you for actually LOOKING at the Origonal Post. Kudos.

:flame:
 

Silent Beast

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
427
Location
NJ
Personally, I'm disappointed by the lack of context in the tournament data provided by both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides. By "context", I specifically refer to comparison of MK's tournament performance to the performances of the top characters in other fighting games. (In the following examples, please note that when I say "significant", I mean statistically significant, as opposed to saying something along the lines of, "well, this difference seems like a lot, so I'll just call it a 'significant' difference.")

As an example, pro-ban cites MK as having "22% of ALL tournament places" (I assume "all tournament places" refers to top-8 placings or better, as found in Ankoku's Character Rankings List). Is this 22% unprecedented among the #1 characters in other fighting games? If the best characters in other fighting games generally take significantly smaller percentages of tourney placings, then MK's performance would more strongly support a MK ban. If previously banned characters in other games had taken a similar percentage of tournament placings, or lower placing percentages, MK's tournament prowess would appear to warrant a ban. If, however, those top unbanned characters typically take similar, or significantly higher percentages of tournament placings, then MK's performance is perfectly normal, and would not warrant his banning.

Similarly, anti-ban argues that MK takes "30.18% of all cash prizes from Brawl Singes events." Does this percentage imply that a ban is unnecessary? Is this percentage of total earnings significantly lower than those of other #1 characters? Is there no significant difference? Or are MK's earnings significantly higher? Without information from other games, we cannot definitively determine if 30.18% is a normal percentage for the game's best character, or an abnormally high percentage. Some might interpret 30.18% of earnings as perfectly OK for the best character in the game; others might feel that 30.18% is too high for a single character.

Do other fighting game communities have readily available tournament statistics? If not, do they publicly archive their tournament results, which would allow for the collection of said tourney statistics? If they do, it's a shame that neither side used this information to give a more complete understanding of MK's tournament performance. Regardless of availability, without the additional data from those characters from other games that are comparable to MK, we, the readers, cannot come to a definitive conclusion on the ban question based on the statistics that both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides provided, and are left to variable individual interpretations of these statistics, that are based on little more than individual hunches.
 

Smash_Of_Fate

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
95
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Los Angeles, California
NNID
Babael_Of_Fate
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My my, what a shock. I've been Anti-Ban since November of last year and after reading both arguments I'm kinda in limbo about my decision now. Out of the two the Pro-Ban side seemed to prove their case better to me, though there were still a few things I disagreed with. Still, it was enough to change my mind from "Anti-Ban" to "I'm not sure if I want to ban MK or not".

EDIT:
Personally, I'm disappointed by the lack of context in the tournament data provided by both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides. By "context", I specifically refer to comparison of MK's tournament performance to the performances of the top characters in other fighting games. (In the following examples, please note that when I say "significant", I mean statistically significant, as opposed to saying something along the lines of, "well, this difference seems like a lot, so I'll just call it a 'significant' difference.")

As an example, pro-ban cites MK as having "22% of ALL tournament places" (I assume "all tournament places" refers to top-8 placings or better, as found in Ankoku's Character Rankings List). Is this 22% unprecedented among the #1 characters in other fighting games? If the best characters in other fighting games generally take significantly smaller percentages of tourney placings, then MK's performance would more strongly support a MK ban. If previously banned characters in other games had taken a similar percentage of tournament placings, or lower placing percentages, MK's tournament prowess would appear to warrant a ban. If, however, those top unbanned characters typically take similar, or significantly higher percentages of tournament placings, then MK's performance is perfectly normal, and would not warrant his banning.

Similarly, anti-ban argues that MK takes "30.18% of all cash prizes from Brawl Singes events." Does this percentage imply that a ban is unnecessary? Is this percentage of total earnings significantly lower than those of other #1 characters? Is there no significant difference? Or are MK's earnings significantly higher? Without information from other games, we cannot definitively determine if 30.18% is a normal percentage for the game's best character, or an abnormally high percentage. Some might interpret 30.18% of earnings as perfectly OK for the best character in the game; others might feel that 30.18% is too high for a single character.

Do other fighting game communities have readily available tournament statistics? If not, do they publicly archive their tournament results, which would allow for the collection of said tourney statistics? If they do, it's a shame that neither side used this information to give a more complete understanding of MK's tournament performance. Regardless of availability, without the additional data from those characters from other games that are comparable to MK, we, the readers, cannot come to a definitive conclusion on the ban question based on the statistics that both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides provided, and are left to variable individual interpretations of these statistics, that are based on little more than individual hunches.
I think that would be the deciding factor for me as far as making a final decision.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I think this discussion would be a lot better without the people who want to ban Meta Knight.
Please do not make posts such as this, or else you'll join the bajillion other people who have been infracted today because of offhand remarks like this.

Keep on topic please :)

To respond to Da-D-Mon.

I think if MK were to be banned, Marth would shoot way up. GnW as well (possibly anyway).
 

Da-D-Mon-109

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
1,169
Location
Dallas GA
:flame:
Silent, I'd agree with you if Brawl was like your traditional fighting game. But you dont get to walk in circles around your enemy, dodgng in 8 3D dirrections, and trying to deplete you enemy's health. If any other game was fought like anything like Super Smash Bros Brawl, then the criteria for character banishment that they use could be easily applied. But since we lack such a game, Brawl's community has t decide what is ban worthy and what isn't themsleves. When we figure out that criteria, the ban or not-ban will come much quicker.
:flame:
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Please do not make posts such as this, or else you'll join the bajillion other people who have been infracted today because of offhand remarks like this.

Keep on topic please :)

To respond to Da-D-Mon.

I think if MK were to be banned, Marth would shoot way up. GnW as well (possibly anyway).
Naturally, losing his most problematic match-up would improve Marth, when you consider that apart from MK, all his "bad" match-ups are fairly even or not that bad.

Our best Marth tends to only lose against our best MK player, as far as our nationals go.

GnW I think would improve, but not a really noticeable amount like Marth.
 

Silent Beast

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
427
Location
NJ
:flame:
Silent, I'd agree with you if Brawl was like your traditional fighting game. But you dont get to walk in circles around your enemy, dodgng in 8 3D dirrections, and trying to deplete you enemy's health. If any other game was fought like anything like Super Smash Bros Brawl, then the criteria for character banishment that they use could be easily applied. But since we lack such a game, Brawl's community has t decide what is ban worthy and what isn't themsleves. When we figure out that criteria, the ban or not-ban will come much quicker.
:flame:
I understand the "Smash is not like other fighting games" argument when discussing the banning of items, stages, etc. Smash is different from other fighting games. All competitive fighting games, however, have tournaments. When using tournament statistics as evidence in an attempt to ban (or not ban) a character in Brawl (or another Smash game), I feel that comparing the Brawl character's tourney statistics to the tourney statistics of characters from other fighting games is the best option.
 

IxxI

Smash Fence
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
2,147
Location
Berkeley, CA
I went from Pro-Ban > Pro-Ban > Not Sure > Anti-Ban. I remember wanting Metaknight banned the first two votings because of the fact I would always lose to every Metaknight I faced. The frustration of losing drove me to wanting him banned. I then switched to "Not sure" because I really didn't know at the time. Now, here I am on the Anti-Ban side. I actually learned the match-up, and I realized that he really shouldn't be banned. It's all about out playing your opponent. There's no doubt that he's the best character by a very large margin in many different aspects. Then again, I'm no BRoomer or anyone who places large in tournaments. This is just my side of things.

Also,
LOL@ Tails chao's signature.
 

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,283
Location
Perth, Australia
I feel MK shouldn't be banned because matchups are getting closer to even with him then before. Its now not as hard to win against him. He is hyped to be broken, so people believe that he is.

Just an opinion, don't flame me for it :)
 

Fatmanonice

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
18,432
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Somewhere... overthinking something
NNID
Fatmanonice
It's becoming more and more apparent that no matter what the conclusion is, it's not going to be pretty and this forum will be hurt by it either way. I don't know, I feel a storm brewing and I think it will be worse than the Melee vs Brawl threads.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
It's becoming more and more apparent that no matter what the conclusion is, it's not going to be pretty and this forum will be hurt by it either way. I don't know, I feel a storm brewing and I think it will be worse than the Melee vs Brawl threads.
Yup, that sounds about right.
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
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Messages
25,073
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Would have been so much easier/funner if the game was designed better.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Personally, I'm disappointed by the lack of context in the tournament data provided by both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides. By "context", I specifically refer to comparison of MK's tournament performance to the performances of the top characters in other fighting games. (In the following examples, please note that when I say "significant", I mean statistically significant, as opposed to saying something along the lines of, "well, this difference seems like a lot, so I'll just call it a 'significant' difference.")

As an example, pro-ban cites MK as having "22% of ALL tournament places" (I assume "all tournament places" refers to top-8 placings or better, as found in Ankoku's Character Rankings List). Is this 22% unprecedented among the #1 characters in other fighting games? If the best characters in other fighting games generally take significantly smaller percentages of tourney placings, then MK's performance would more strongly support a MK ban. If previously banned characters in other games had taken a similar percentage of tournament placings, or lower placing percentages, MK's tournament prowess would appear to warrant a ban. If, however, those top unbanned characters typically take similar, or significantly higher percentages of tournament placings, then MK's performance is perfectly normal, and would not warrant his banning.

Similarly, anti-ban argues that MK takes "30.18% of all cash prizes from Brawl Singes events." Does this percentage imply that a ban is unnecessary? Is this percentage of total earnings significantly lower than those of other #1 characters? Is there no significant difference? Or are MK's earnings significantly higher? Without information from other games, we cannot definitively determine if 30.18% is a normal percentage for the game's best character, or an abnormally high percentage. Some might interpret 30.18% of earnings as perfectly OK for the best character in the game; others might feel that 30.18% is too high for a single character.

Do other fighting game communities have readily available tournament statistics? If not, do they publicly archive their tournament results, which would allow for the collection of said tourney statistics? If they do, it's a shame that neither side used this information to give a more complete understanding of MK's tournament performance. Regardless of availability, without the additional data from those characters from other games that are comparable to MK, we, the readers, cannot come to a definitive conclusion on the ban question based on the statistics that both the pro-ban and the anti-ban sides provided, and are left to variable individual interpretations of these statistics, that are based on little more than individual hunches.
This is a fair point, but the data really doesn't exist. Brawl is unprecedented in its tournament stats keeping. The only other example I know if is this post I mentioned but didn't find earlier by AlphaZealot about melee, and even then it's nowhere near as complete as Ankoku's Brawl data (though still good stuff).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201196

I will comment on some cases in other fighting games that I am not a true expert on but know more than some people who like to mention them...

Street Fighter 2':In Super Turbo, Akuma is just obscene. He's like Ryu except better in every way and with a super broken air fireball move that most of the cast just can't answer. I want to be clear what I mean by this. For most of the cast, if Akuma spams air fireball and does nothing else, they won't win (Zangief has it the worst against this).

In HDR, Akuma is obviously the best character, and he probably renders several characters inviable by himself. This ordinarily wouldn't be ban-worthy, but HDR has unique circumstances. It's well known that if Akuma is banned, literally every other character in the game is tournament viable. If he's not banned, a lot of the cast is inviable and the game ends up being worse than Super Turbo... which leaves the community in a bind. Playing ST without Akuma is better than playing HDR with Akuma, but playing HDR without Akuma is the best. Even if banning Akuma in HDR is a bit against the general principles, the greater good here is just too obvious to ignore. Akuma was really toeing the line anyway; he had forced super setups that were obviously buggy (also somewhat random) and really overpowered, and his normals had hitboxes that are even worse than Brawl Snake's. He also had some other really stupid properties like frontal invincibility during his fireballs that don't even make sense and were really overpowered.

A good comparison for HDR Akuma to MK is this. Imagine if MK were a little better because he was really buggy, and imagine if the rest of the cast were extremely well balanced (no Snakes and no Ganondorfs). That's about how they compare.

Street Fighter 3: Yun and Chun Li do tower over the rest of the cast with only something like 7 characters being viable, but the balance is just awful throughout. You look at terrible characters like Q and Twelve and wonder what the designers were thinking and how anyone could think they are even close to useful (they're so bad they make melee Pichu look broken). Bans don't help this game at all even if it has really broken character balance.

Street Fighter 4: Honestly, Sagat is just like Meta Knight. The most recent matchup charts give him an advantage over every other character in the game except Dhalsim, and he is very common in tournaments though far from overpowering. The key factor is that he's not unbeatable at all for other good characters or even average characters (not many characters are truly bad in SFIV, though it has a non-negligibly smaller cast than Brawl to be fair). I don't know exact numbers since the stats aren't kept well in this community, but I think the main difference with Sagat is that there are fewer really notable Sagats as opposed to really notable Meta Knights largely probably because the overall Street Fighter community is so much older than the Smash Bros one with the top players being really entrenched in ways of doing things that are likely not compatible with Sagat.

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core: Eddie is obviously the best character and has no bad matchups, and at the last EVO some guy originally from Saudi Arabia (!!!) showed just how ridiculous he can be with super execution skills. Guilty Gear is insanely technical though so the investment Eddie requires to be able to exploit him is really huge. I don't think this makes him more or less ban-worthy than Meta Knight (to whom he is overall pretty comparable), but it does stop any real trend of people flooding to him.

Guilty Gear also has Kliff and Justice. Justice is broken like Akuma is (just obviously so good that only an idiot would use anyone else if she's allowed). Kliff is banned on the justification that he's console exclusive (Justice is too, though she's auto-banned anyway), and only some people seem to think he's broken on top of that. The Guilty Gear community actually cares about the arcade version for some reason; I guess this matters to them.

Power Rangers the Fighting Edition: Someone HAD to bring up Ivan Ooze. Haha, I am an expert on this game; I daresay one of the most knowledgable people out of anyone anywhere (since a friend and I really explored the game as a serious fighter for about a month). Ivan Ooze is the most broken thing ever, obviously has to be banned. He can just fly away and spam a projectile (that requires one button press to do) and beat most of the cast (only a few even stand a remote chance against that... and then he has other broken stuff that shut people down just as well if not better). He also has a hilarious pseudo-infinite that only works in the ditto matchup and is really easy to set up and do, just for fun and to ensure 100% of the Ivan Ooze gameplay is degenerate.

FYI, for anyone curious, here's what I feel the real tier list for this game is:

SSS+++ (banned): Ivan Ooze
S (overpowered but fair): Lord Zedd
A (standard): Thunder Megazord, Ninja Megazord, Lipsyncher
B (underpowered but viable): Mega Tigerzord
C (not really viable but you can try): Goldar, Silver Horns
F (uselessly bad): Shogun Megazord

So yeah, Meta Knight is not really like the truly broken characters at all, but he's also in a game that pans out a bit differently from the other games with SFIV being probably the closest parallel. I can say that there's no precedent for anyone like Meta Knight ever being banned, if that helps.
 

Scipion121212

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
99
Voted for yes.
and "dontbescrublolol" people secretly main metaknight.
There would be 9001% lesser overcentralization w/o metaknight.
I am not trolling.
This is truth and you know it.
Play MK, lose money or actually begin to kill with da allmighty BANHAMMER!! :chuckle:
 

Ult

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
37
Location
Yuma, Arizona
I think he shouldn't be banned.

If you have the skill you can beat MK. That's all it really is, anyone can beat anyone if you practice and get better. So what's the point?
 

cp2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
21
Location
Spain
MK is the best, but he isn't unwinable, and its not as broken as someone think

banning its the last thing we can do to stop MK, and he is stopping himself, the last tournaments are few MK players and the rank lower. Every day MK is less unwinable than the last day... now its not the moment for bannig MK
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Me trying to debunk arguments

He isn't unbeatable: Well obviously he's not unbeatable, what kind of stupid point is this? Fact is, you can't get an advantage on MK (character or stagewise) so it's very hard to beat him.

Train and get better: Thing is, MK mains are humans too. They can also train and get better.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
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Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Amazing Ampharos is amazing...

Edit: POF, if I ever get to play you I'll 3-stock your pathetic MK in a 100$ (or €) MM with my MEDIOCRE Wolf.

:059:
 
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