Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Red Arremer]

Those are the MK's that get destroyed by players with a brain.

Haha, Vex... <3
I missed you man, how's it goin?

 

[½NIÇK½FBM]

If you lose to that (except for against characters that literally can't get through nado like Luigi) then you're just bad.

Luigi can Nair through the nado......while he's in it.

 

[Avion]

It goes back and forth. Overall the match-up between anti-ban and pro-ban is about 45:55. We'll need a new AT or something to have a truly winning match-up against anti-bans.

Despite being anti-ban myself, this post is awesome

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Haha, Vex... <3
I missed you man, how's it goin?

Pure Bowser now in singles.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then how are they winning? If someone can't beat that then they shouldn't have a say if the character in bannable or not since they obviously aren't good.

That's not REALLY true, people who're extremely intelligent and have a great deal of insight into the game in addition to knowledge could just be a horrible player with bad reaction time for example.


But it's rare and has to be proven by a long-term history of intelligent commentary.

Luigi can Nair through the nado......while he's in it.

Really? +1 to my list of characters that should never lose to that.

Which is a lot larger then my list of characters that should lose to it.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

If you don't have good reaction time then you don't matter in a competitive stand-point. You MUST have it to abuse things.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

That's not REALLY true, people who're extremely intelligent and have a great deal of insight into the game in addition to knowledge could just be a horrible player with bad reaction time for example.

Sounds like a john to me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pure Bowser now in singles.

Good man.

 

[*_Echo_*]

If you don't have good reaction time then you don't matter in a competitive stand-point. You MUST have it to abuse things.

wat? there are plenty of ppl who are decent at this game, dont place high, but still have read aton about this game, love it, and watch the scene, so they know of the competitive scene

 

[RDK]

Another ban Metaknight thread? Once again, why are people who know nothing about competitive fighting games allowed to vote? The only thing these threads accomplish is showing everyone just how stupid the majority of Brawl boarders are.

Oh well. Scrubs will be scrubs I guess.

 

[Atlus8]

I agree with RDK!

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

wat? there are plenty of ppl who are decent at this game, dont place high, but still have read aton about this game, love it, and watch the scene, so they know of the competitive scene

You never stated anything about reaction time, to react and avoid mindgames, and other gimmicks you have to reaction time, theres no getting around that lol.

 

[SoupaSonic]

I just thought of something, doesn't meta have a slow grab release animation? I could be wrong, I don't use him. But if he does then you could easily try to do a grab release combo (is that what it's called?)

 

[Overswarm]

^it's been steadily increasing for the past 3 hours.

 

[*_Echo_*]

You never stated anything about reaction time, to react and avoid mindgames, and other gimmicks you have to reaction time, theres no getting around that lol.

so? just because u place bad doesnt mean u dont know anything about this game and dont have a solid argument. it has nothing to do with "reaction time"

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I just thought of something, doesn't meta have a slow grab release animation? I could be wrong, I don't use him. But if he does then you could easily try to do a grab release combo (is that what it's called?)

Him being grab released or him grab releasing, he has an awful grab release animation that he gets abused by, by quite a few characters. His grab releasing animation is about average but hes a really fast character so its easier for him to abuse somebody out of a grab release then most characters(assuming we're talking about jump releases)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sounds like a john to me.

We're talking about a discussion/debate, not a match. Very few people john about getting rocked in a debate so they never admit it, unless it's a formal one.


In the same way, being bad at the game is not an excuse for being bad at discussing it.

If you don't have good reaction time then you don't matter in a competitive stand-point. You MUST have it to abuse things.

You don't matter when it comes to tournaments, but that doesn't mean that you can't understand the game well enough to have a valid or even far superior viewpoint to most people.

Another ban Metaknight thread? Once again, why are people who know nothing about competitive fighting games allowed to vote? The only thing these threads accomplish is showing everyone just how stupid the majority of Brawl boarders are.

Oh well. Scrubs will be scrubs I guess.

SBR felt like rocking the boat when it was unwarranted... AGAIN.

Him being grab released or him grab releasing, he has an awful grab release animation that he gets abused by, by quite a few characters. His grab releasing animation is about average but hes a really fast character so its easier for him to abuse somebody out of a grab release then most characters(assuming we're talking about jump releases)

Marth grab release to nair is awesome.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

so? just because u place bad doesnt mean u dont know anything about this game and dont have a solid argument. it has nothing to do with "reaction time"

Dude you don't understand what I am saying so I'm just going to drop it.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

We're talking about a discussion/debate, not a match. Very few people john about getting rocked in a debate so they never admit it, unless it's a formal one.

I'm saying not having good reaction time sounds like a john

Marth grab release to nair is awesome.

I know lol.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Another ban Metaknight thread? Once again, why are people who know nothing about competitive fighting games allowed to vote? The only thing these threads accomplish is showing everyone just how stupid the majority of Brawl boarders are.

Oh well. Scrubs will be scrubs I guess.

I agree.

Also, just wondering, do you attend tourneys?

Personally I think that people who attend tourneys should be the only ones voting. Not insulting anyone's intelligence, it's just that if you don't attend tourneys, this doesn't affect you in any way, so it really doesn't make much sense for you to vote.

 

[RDK]

SBR felt like rocking the boat when it was unwarranted... AGAIN.

I'm starting to think that it's just a ploy to get activity up. Release some sort of ban thread every few months and watch the posts skyrocket.

Shame on the SBR. Exploiting the stupidity of Brawl boarders is like ****** a small child without its consent.

Also, just wondering, do you attend tourneys?

Not too often anymore. College doesn't really allow for it, and Brawl sucks anyway.

 

[Red Arremer]

Pure Bowser now in singles.

Awesome. :3

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I agree.

Also, just wondering, do you attend tourneys?

Personally I think that people who attend tourneys should be the only ones voting. Not insulting anyone's intelligence, it's just that if you don't attend tourneys, this doesn't affect you in any way, so it really doesn't make much sense for you to vote.

I agree 100%

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

You don't matter when it comes to tournaments, but that doesn't mean that you can't understand the game well enough to have a valid or even far superior viewpoint to most people.

True but you can't say Oh nado and dsmash ***** players and mk players aren't smart. If the other player has reaction time and functional brain then he can get around nado and dsmash and also abuse the MK.

 

[Sosuke]

I'm starting to think that it's just a ploy to get activity up. Release some sort of ban thread every few months and watch the posts skyrocket.

Shame on the SBR. Exploiting the stupidity of Brawl boarders is like ****** a small child without its consent.

Or it might just be better then seeming like they don't care about the community when it thinks it has a problem.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Right...because comparison is ALWAYS the best way to do business.

If you do not understand why the comparison is made, do NOT post.

All you are doing is saying "WOMG COMPARISON IS BAD" rather than refuting.

 

[RDK]

Or it might just be better then seeming like they don't care about the community when it thinks it has a problem.

Nobody who matters in the Smash community thinks there's a problem; oddly enough because there isn't. It's the incredibly whiny minority who end up getting heard, and then we get threads like these.

 

[Eddie G]

If you do not understand why the comparison is made, do NOT post.

All you are doing is saying "WOMG COMPARISON IS BAD" rather than refuting.

Oh I understand perfectly well why the comparison is made, but late response is late and I've already lost interest in this joke of an argument. Thanks for taking the time to respond though, I'm truly flattered.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree.

Also, just wondering, do you attend tourneys?

Personally I think that people who attend tourneys should be the only ones voting. Not insulting anyone's intelligence, it's just that if you don't attend tourneys, this doesn't affect you in any way, so it really doesn't make much sense for you to vote.

The community isnt made from separate states.
Alot of people dont go to tournaments but their input is very valuable due to their knowledge.

Why lose out on a valid vote?

Oh I understand perfectly well why the comparison is made, but late response is late and I've already lost interest in this joke of an argument. Thanks for taking the time to respond though, I'm truly flattered.

meh k.

 

[Sosuke]

Nobody who matters in the Smash community thinks there's a problem; oddly enough because there isn't. It's the incredibly whiny minority who end up getting heard, and then we get threads like these.

If that were true, there wouldn't be over a 50% vote for yes in the ban.
I wouldn't consider that a minority.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm saying not having good reaction time sounds like a john

It is a john, but there are a lot of people that phail at the tournament scene for that and other reasons.

But that doesn't mean they can't understand the game well and add a lot to community discussion.

That's what I was talking about with that quote, that being a good playing doesn't necessarily indicate you're good at discussing the game and vice-versa.

Ex. M2K generally phails at debate and discussion of the game.

I know lol.

I need to be reliable with that, but soon. And it's tippered too.

I agree.

Also, just wondering, do you attend tourneys?

Personally I think that people who attend tourneys should be the only ones voting. Not insulting anyone's intelligence, it's just that if you don't attend tourneys, this doesn't affect you in any way, so it really doesn't make much sense for you to vote.

While I do think that non-tourney players who are simply extremely smart and have a lot of knowledge of the game can add a lot to the debate, in a practical sense, I've gotta agree.

Unless they plan to be tournament players, the issue doesn't effect them and they shouldn't be trying to change the rules that govern our tournaments.


That includes melee-only and 64-only players.

I'm starting to think that it's just a ploy to get activity up. Release some sort of ban thread every few months and watch the posts skyrocket.

Shame on the SBR. Exploiting the stupidity of Brawl boarders is like ****** a small child without its consent.

Nice metaphor, but unlike the debate hall, tactical doesn't need activity.

True but you can't say Oh nado and dsmash ***** players and mk players aren't smart. If the other player has reaction time and functional brain then he can get around nado and dsmash and also abuse the MK.

I can agree with that.

The post indicates the player doesn't know much about the game if he thinks that's all MK needs to do.


My only point is people can be phail players and still add to the discussion.

Nobody who matters in the Smash community thinks there's a problem; oddly enough because there isn't. It's the incredibly whiny minority who end up getting heard, and then we get threads like these.

No, plenty of people who matter do.

The problem is, they've failed to establish he's banworthy with evidence or even collect the required evidence.


Remember my blog on the issue, has any of my points been met?

The community isnt made from separate states.
Alot f people dont go to tournaments but their input is very valuable due to their knowledge.

He didn't say they couldn't debate, but it seems akin to people from NJ voting for the state senators from NY. (not federal senators, the state senate)

 

[Praxis]

Congratulations, you have just personally admitted that Metaknight isn't broken, and in order for them to win, they have to spend the same amount of time learning their matchups as other players do to beat Metaknight. You have just said something that applies to EVERY TOP-TIER CHARACTER IN EVERY FIGHTING GAME EVER!

I never claimed MK to be "broken" in the SF2 Akuma-sense (i.e. auto beats everyone).

Rather, MK is just far better than the rest of the cast. I claimed he is "broken" with me defining the term to mean something that is out of place with the rest of the game, not something that is unbeatable.

MK being forced to learn matchups doesn't hurt this point at all.
Did you even READ the first post argument?

Now, Genesis notwithstanding, I'm going to answer the points you brought up by reintroducing the second post:

The rest of it is ChiboSempai's post from the BRoom, reposted with his permission. I'll let him defend it.

 

[Laijin]

So everyone who is pro ban who actually cares about the community..
you DO realize that is almost gaurenteed to destroy the brawl community right?
Plus it'll turn off new brawl smashers too.
I'm pro ban all because of that. ;o
Everyone will run to Melee.

 

[RDK]

If that were true, there wouldn't be over a 50% vote for yes in the ban.
I wouldn't consider that a minority.

Not everybody who uses Smashboards participates in tournaments, let alone actually places well and contributes to the community. This is a prime example of why the SBR doesn't look for polls to make their decisions; because they're a joke, just like the last 3.

No, plenty of people who matter do.

The problem is, they've failed to establish he's banworthy with evidence or even collect the required evidence.


Remember my blog on the issue, has any of my points been met?

No, which only bolsters my point. If you still believe MK deserves a ban without meeting any of the criteria laid out, then you probably don't know what you're doing. Meaning you're not a noteworthy member of the community (or at least you shouldn't be).

 

[ShadowLink84]

So everyone who is pro ban who actually cares about the community..
you DO realize that is almost gaurenteed to destroy the brawl community right?
Plus it'll turn off new brawl smashers too.
I'm pro ban all because of that. ;o
Everyone will run to Melee.

New players will be turned away from brawl because the best character who in the past dominated tournaments is gone?
I love this logic, where did you get it

 

[Eddie G]

So everyone who is pro ban who actually cares about the community..
you DO realize that is almost gaurenteed to destroy the brawl community right?
Plus it'll turn off new brawl smashers too.
I'm pro ban all because of that. ;o
Everyone will run to Melee.

Hell yeah! <3

 

[momochuu]

They forced me to do this. ;_;

Grrrr! Don't spam or "turn this into a chatroom" or get infracted! By me! Grrr!

 

[Praxis]

Quote from myself from the blog Fiction made on AiB about that. Those results whatever thing he made was pretty skewed.

You're also forgetting one thing: top players beat other top players. Surprise! Take for example, Anther and Lain. Some months ago, Anther was really dominating the Midwest, but since around APEX, Lain stepped it up and started beating Anther more frequently than Anther was beating Lain.

As aforementioned yet again, Ally keeps being disregarded. Why? Because he's, "Too good," or "Just that far ahead everyone else." Doesn't it prove that one player who doesn't use MK and one character who isn't MK can beat the top MKs in the country.

The main thing that's wrong with Fiction's argument in that post is that those single sets can somehow single-handedly prove a match-up. They don't. Again, while sets give evidence to support a claim that a match-up goes one way, by themselves, they prove nothing. Your argument in that post (at least the first part, before it goes to Chibo's criteria) is based off of Fiction's match-up statements, skewed results, forgetting that these are all players using characters, not just characters, and ignoring Ally.

These single sets are brought up because the WC has already demonstrated MK's ridiculous dominance, and EC players have been arguing that MK isn't a problem because their region has players that know the matchup too well and will beat the WC Metaknights.

Last weekend, top four was 4 MKs. SoCal has had tournaments with 7 MKs in the top 8 recently IIRC. It's getting ridiculous.

The reason these single sets are being brought up is because it destroys the argument. Top EC "MK slayers" like Atomsk were losing to MK's that weren't even the very top (Havok is #8 on SoCal PR).

You can't claim Snake to beat MK either, as the next best placing Snake was UltimateRazer, losing to Havok's MK.

Ally is literally the only player in Brawl history with a consistent record against Metaknights. That's why we say he's amazing. xD

 

[RDK]

New players will be turned away from brawl because the best character who in the past dominated tournaments is gone?
I love this logic, where did you get it

Out of his ***, where all of his posts come from. As well as everyone from the pro-ban side.

 

[Sosuke]

Not everybody who uses Smashboards participates in tournaments, let alone actually places well and contributes to the community. This is a prime example of why the SBR doesn't look for polls to make their decisions; because they're a joke, just like the last 3.

I understand that, I'm just saying it's a little unfair to call that many people a "minority", don't you think?