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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


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    3,010
  • Poll closed .
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Xerit

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Nonono, you shouldn't pick up MK.

Mc-Killa's saying that you wouldn't go far picking MK for the sake of picking him. And if us pro-banners are only voting to ban him because we can't learn the MU, then a good choice is for us to main MK. If we can't beat MK with our mains, and we won't go far with MK, what do you want us to do, quit? Say goodbye to over 50% of the Brawl community then.

If worst comes to worst, I'LL pick up MK too. I ahven't picked him up yet because if he DOES get banned, that's time wasted. If he doesn't get banned, might as well learn how to use him. We'll soon see everyone in this community uses him in tourneys for the sake of fighting their bad MUs, INCLUDING the MK MU.
Thats slippery slope logic and I try to avoid that. Honestly I probably should never have said anything on my thoughts about picking him up.

Just because he isn't banned doesn't mean everyone will eventually switch to him. There are other valid choices that can both compete with MK and other upper tier characters. (Snake is the obvious example)

I was just saying, as I said a while back when I posted in a thread about who the best secondary was, that the more I think about it the harder its becoming to logically justify not picking up MK.

Right now the reason I don't play him if I'm honest is because I think hes cheesy and I feel lame using him in friendlies while I practice with my friends. Because honestly, I haven't met anyone yet who enjoys the MK matchup when they are playing someone who can play on their level. However in tournaments that doesn't matter since all that really matters there is winning, and taking the shortest path to victory is always the best solution.
 

Abbra Cadav3r

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Right now the reason I don't play him if I'm honest is because I think hes cheesy and I feel lame using him in friendlies while I practice with my friends. Because honestly, I haven't met anyone yet who enjoys the MK matchup when they are playing someone who can play on their level. However in tournaments that doesn't matter since all that really matters there is winning, and taking the shortest path to victory is always the best solution.
i actually enjoy the matchup since i picked up pit, i have 2 friends who play MK and its fun as hell to abuse them with pit who they thought sucked.

on another note, pit and MK make a nasty team its gimptastic.
 
D

Deleted member

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how about instead of being naysayers and speculating the future, just vote.
 

Sosuke

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Bowser has a grab release on MK too.

100 - 0 Bowser's favor def.
 

Exceladon City

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I hear blasphemy being spoken amongst the masses. Who the hell doesn't benefit from picking MK? Insert character with hard counter here and now insert that hard counter. How do I solve this problem?

(A)Stick with your main because you've practiced this match-up
(B)Pick your secondary you've been using for just this situation
(C)Pick MK because you know you have an answer for everything this counter has
(D)Pick C because you know better than to rely on A and B.

Which would you choose if you wanted to make a huge benefit?
 

Kewkky

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Thats slippery slope logic and I try to avoid that. Honestly I probably should never have said anything on my thoughts about picking him up.

Just because he isn't banned doesn't mean everyone will eventually switch to him. There are other valid choices that can both compete with MK and other upper tier characters. (Snake is the obvious example)

I was just saying, as I said a while back when I posted in a thread about who the best secondary was, that the more I think about it the harder its becoming to logically justify not picking up MK.

Right now the reason I don't play him if I'm honest is because I think hes cheesy and I feel lame using him in friendlies while I practice with my friends. Because honestly, I haven't met anyone yet who enjoys the MK matchup when they are playing someone who can play on their level. However in tournaments that doesn't matter since all that really matters there is winning, and taking the shortest path to victory is always the best solution.
I meant what I said about using him if he doesn't get banned. I dunno about everyone else, I'm just using what other people have said, plus that last statement, to show just how ludicrous it all sounds together. I don't mean my prediction to be true and for all of us to abide by it.

And I WILL learn MK good enough to consider him one of my mains if he doesn't get banned. I bet he'll win me all the tourneys I attend in PR with my ******** aggressive playstyle..
 

Kewkky

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Kewkky, you're making an even match up sound like it's not even at all. He's not some heavenly beast dude.
I know, I know... I'm just looking at the big picture, compiling all the matchups together and seeing who's the best and on what grounds. A good MK will have the advantage on the majority of the scenarios, whereas a good [insert chaarcter here] will not have as many advantages as a good MK. No wonder he's the best choice, right?

I used to use Snake as my tertiary becauseI didn't want to be seen using MK and avoid any social disasters in the local smash community, but MK is just better, no need to lie to myself.
 

Xerit

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Kewkky, you're making an even match up sound like it's not even at all. He's not some heavenly beast dude.
Most of his matches aren't even though. They are in his favor to some degree or another.

If you're already as good or better than your opponent and you have even a slight advantage because of your character....
 

MarKO X

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If you can't beat him, pick him.
 

Falconv1.0

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Most of his matches aren't even though. They are in his favor to some degree or another.

If you're already as good or better than your opponent and you have even a slight advantage because of your character....
55/45 is even. I don't care what the big picture is when it's an even match up for me as say like, Snake, and easily nowhere near my worst match up. Unless your name is Marf or maybe ROB, there's no excuse as to why you aren't placing with a good top tier other than because you aren't good.

Pick a top tier, have fun. Once again, most top tiers go around even with him, and have some stronger matchup advantages than he does.

What Marko said.
 

Masmasher@

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How many people in the world play like Ally? If you can name 5 who are as skilled as him, then I'll look the other way on MK's taking #2, #3 and #4 on GENESIS. You can't say he shouldn't be banned if the majority of the population doesn't have what it takes to learn the matchup, and refuse to change their mains for the sake of a more diverse gaming experience, and one that they find "fun". And I said "fun" because we're talking mid-level gaming here.

And while I'm mentioning mid-level gaming, the OP also states it, I don't think Ally and M2K in GENESIS finals are considered mid-level gaming. Top-level is important, most definitely! But where does the money for tourney winners come from? The vast majority of the members in this site are mid-level players too... And there's one true fact that has been seen over and over again: MK dominates mid-level gaming and low-level gaming, and is also a great force to be reckoned with in high level gaming. You cannot tell me there are Power Rankers who say that "MK is easy because I elarned the MU", the fights are STILL uphill battles for both whose winners are determined by how many mistakes the MK user does... In lower levels, mistakes happen all the time, and the opponent's mistakes are BY FAR easier to puniosh with MK< than a mistake made by MK and punished by whoever else (besides MK himself).

The point isn't that MK is broken, but that he is "too good at what makes Brawl unique". He is a perfect gimper, has a perfect recovery, lightweight while he can live to high percents due to momentum cancelling and DI, and is fast. Snake might do better than MK at some points, but at others he is just sad, like his recovery... He is almost assured damage if he's recovering from low, not to mention the gimping dangers he faces by a lot of the cast members. MK's disadvantages (if you can call them that) is that he has to attack you from mid-close range if he wants to stay safe, making a bait/punishment tactic work better on him that anything else (along with a side dish of CAMPING, and no one likes watching a match that focuses on outcamping the opponents).

So, there you have it. MK isn't broken, he's just TOO good at everything Brawl is. If you feel like it's a valid point telling the pro-banners that "they should learn the matchup", prove to me that you have learned it, and answer me WHY is it that the majority (over 50% of the community) is still hoping for a ban on MK, even if they've been told in poll #1, #2, and #3 to LEARN THE MATCHUP? What difference do you think will do to end the 4th poll with another "LEARN THE MATCHUP" line?

I personally don't have big problems against MK, my mains assure me of that, and they're my favorite characters in the whole freakin' game. The only problem I have is when my opponent decides to Dair aircamp and land with tornadoes, then fly to somewhere far away where I can't reach them in time, then start all over again. How do you expect me to deal with a camping character, whose dair comes out in frame 3(?), landing from the tornado at a certain height means NO LAG AT ALL, has 6 jumps, and can live to high percents thanks to his momentum canceller (uair) and proper DI? If I'm at a disadvantage (1 stock), what am i supposed to do? And that's my only problem, which I'm trying to find ways around that fit into my strategy.

Think about it, and try to get your mind away from tourney results for a second, since you know you're no Power Ranker to be talking about those, and I'm no power ranker either (unless Puerto Rico counts). Answer my question about our main money purveyors in tourneys: the mid-level players.

And before I'm done, I'll leave you with a small fact: PR's tourney scene has degenerated so much due to people thinking that MK takes the fun from brawl, even with our "soft-ban", that in our last tourney, we only had 8 entrants, and the top 3 ended up splitting the money so they could each win more than what they used to enter the tourney with. Is this how you want Brawl's competitive scene to look like?


EDIT: And stop suggesting items as a solution to MK and planking. It is not a solution. They were banned because even with "food" only (which shouldn't change the game much according to what you say), CAPSULES may still appear, and some are explosive treats. Any character gets a free projectile, and if they're lucky, it's the exploding projectile that will kill your opponent at like 50-60%. Oh yeah, that's some wild competition.
The majority isnt ally. Dude thats called life. Thats why its called high level play. I notice you said a more diverse gaming experience. We dont ban things for diversity.
fun is subjective please dont use it.
*reads rest of post*
Yes hes the best character in the game.
Also m2k didnt just start off pro.
Also i will say you are high if you think metaknight is the only reason for people leaving this.....game ROFLMAO
 

Falconv1.0

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What masmasher@ said. Seriously, that's scrub logic. Get good, don't complain because you cant get good enough. People don't get away with it anywhere else, why the **** should we allow it in Brawl. Seriously, if someone beats you, it's because they are better or you picked the wrong character. MK is not the worst thing out there for you, so mid level players shouldn't be able to complain PERIOD.
 

Xerit

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55/45 is even. I don't care what the big picture is when it's an even match up for me as say like, Snake, and easily nowhere near my worst match up. Unless your name is Marf or maybe ROB, there's no excuse as to why you aren't placing with a good top tier other than because you aren't good.

Pick a top tier, have fun. Once again, most top tiers go around even with him, and have some stronger matchup advantages than he does.

What Marko said.
50/50 is even, thats why its 50/50.

Other characters do have some advantages, but they also have to deal with counterpicks. IE: D3 vs Snake advantage D3, but D3 vs Falco advantage Falco.

MK doesn't have to deal with those and has a slight advantage in all three matchups. Which is the point, he almost always has a slight advantage so if you're as good, or just slightly better than your opponent, you win! If you play another character you'll have matches where you fight downhill, and you'll have matches where you fight uphill. If you pick MK, its all downhill.

The same characteristics that make him the (nearly) undisputed best secondary, also make him the best main (unless like me you have a bias against his overwhelming cheese).


Edit: No one is complaining. I do just fine even with MK around, however how people do subjectively isn't the point of this whole debate. Though it is the point Anti-ban and MK-Main's bring up constantly to justify their position. I can't imagine why.
 

MarKO X

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I'm tired of Sonic.
I'm tired of like, outplaying some body and then, "oooooo" a miraculous utilt or shuttle loop and I get beat, or its a close match for some reason. I'm tired of that. I just wanna have priority, just hore it out... and get the free damage.

edit: wow @ hore being censored. lol
 

CRASHiC

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D3 does NOT have an advantage on Snake.
This has been mentioned a lot in this thread. Both the snake boards and the D3 boards agree that it is even.
 

Xerit

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it aint easy being cheesy son
If some of the people I've seen posting as MK mains here can do it, I'm sure anyone else with more than 10 brain cells and a pair of working thumbs can figure it out.

Edit: @Above

D3 boards are lying, snake boards are afraid to piss D3s off by disagreeing.
 

Inui

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D3 does NOT have an advantage on Snake.
This has been mentioned a lot in this thread. Both the snake boards and the D3 boards agree that it is even.
I agree that it will be even once Snake players learn the match-up better. I'm sure Atomsk, Seibrik, and others feel the same way.

And with that said, once again, the gap between Snake and MK is ****ing retardedly small.
Correct. Snake is only slightly better. :bee:
 

Xerit

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About half of the Snake boards says its even.

I still love how it gets brought up a lot.
This isn't really the place for this.....BUT

Snake has admittedly bad recovery. D3 can chaingrab Snake off the stage forcing him to use that recovery.

What part of that doesn't sound like advantage D3?
 

Falconv1.0

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Snake has 'admittedly' bad recover, because obviously you main him and place well, and it's somehow a personal statement for you.

Also, lol no he doesn't, get off drugs.
 

Inui

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This isn't really the place for this.....BUT

Snake has admittedly bad recovery. D3 can chaingrab Snake off the stage forcing him to use that recovery.

What part of that doesn't sound like advantage D3?


The part where Dedede somehow gets near Snake sounds contradictory.
 

Xerit

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Shut up Falcon. Most Snake's i've spoken to admit that Snake's recovery is both predictable and punishable. Hence poor. Its as predictable as D3s, but without the invlunerability on the way up.

D3 might have some trouble closing the gap, but once he does and lands that first grab all it takes is a couple rounds of predict and punish with snakes recovery to make up whatever damage he took closing it.

I'm not saying D3 >>>>> Snake, just D3 > Snake. I'd call it 60/40.
 

Falconv1.0

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Shut up Xerit, most good Snakes think you're silly. Have you not seen how ****ing far up he goes? And he lives to like 200 ****ing percent. Who the hell cares if you can punish it if he still gets back and STILL outlives you.
 

etecoon

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I agree that it will be even once Snake players learn the match-up better. I'm sure Atomsk, Seibrik, and others feel the same way.
This is a contradiction, if Snake needs to know the matchup better than DDD in order to go even with him, it's not even, that's just becoming a better player to beat the odds. Most DDD's could get better at this matchup too, that's why you see a florida DDD with a ton of snake experience(CO18) 3-0ing ally while lain and atomsk can't beat him, most of the time the snake has studied this matchup more than DDD because he has to.

That being said that is only my opinion to this point in time, I've already said that I think this matchup may be changing.
 

Xerit

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Shut up Xerit, most good Snakes think you're silly. Have you not seen how ****ing far up he goes? And he lives to like 200 ****ing percent. Who the hell cares if you can punish it if he still gets back and STILL outlives you.
What game are you playing where D3 is a lightweight?
 

Inui

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Shut up Falcon. Most Snake's i've spoken to admit that Snake's recovery is both predictable and punishable. Hence poor. Its as predictable as D3s, but without the invlunerability on the way up.

D3 might have some trouble closing the gap, but once he does and lands that first grab all it takes is a couple rounds of predict and punish with snakes recovery to make up whatever damage he took closing it.

I'm not saying D3 >>>>> Snake, just D3 > Snake. I'd call it 60/40.


And...just who are you?

Am I expected to trust what you are saying over the absolute best players in the Snake vs Dedede match-up? Atomsk and Seibrik think Snake can potentially have the advantage and/or it's mostly even, and Seibrik even thinks Snake will have the advantage eventually. Snake players are finally starting to cease their crying about the match-up, too.

This is a contradiction, if Snake needs to know the matchup better than DDD in order to go even with him, it's not even, that's just becoming a better player to beat the odds. Most DDD's could get better at this matchup too, that's why you see a florida DDD with a ton of snake experience(CO18) 3-0ing ally while lain and atomsk can't beat him, most of the time the snake has studied this matchup more than DDD because he has to.

That being said that is only my opinion to this point in time, I've already said that I think this matchup may be changing.


Incorrect. Dedede's metagame in the vs Snake match-up is much farther than the other way around right now due to Seibrik. That is all. Your point is moot. CO18 won due to Seibrik and Atomsk hasn't fought Ally since the winter.
 

Falconv1.0

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What paragraph are you reading where I said he's a lightweight. I'm talking about Snake, not D3, stop being a fool.

lol@etecoon. lol actually in competitive gameplay you need to know your **** to beat certain characters HERP DERP. Inui said they need to learn it better, as in get better in general, not learn it better than the opponent. lrn2read
 

etecoon

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Oh and snake's recovery is amazing if you have good DI and don't get predictable, it's definitely not meta knight/ROB easy mode but when you're on your game it's not as easy to intercept as you make it out to be.
 
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