For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

[Cap'nChreest]

M2K plays to win. It has nothing to do with how Metaknight compares to melee. There's a reason Metaknight was in every match of top 8 apex 2014 Brawl singles. He's too good.

M2K said that Metaknight is the only character that feels like Melee and thats why he plays him.

 

[DaDavid]

I have to agree with you DaDavid, I hope there won't be any more badmouthing when SSB4 comes out but here's the thing, Brawl deserved the flack it got. I mean come on, horrible balance, almost no combos except juggling or chain grabs, and tripping was just the final nail in the coffin. Hopefully Sakurai and his team did learn from Brawl's mistakes and this game will be the best Smash yet.

Agreed, when there is a cal for criticism we should be honest with ourselves and levy that criticism against it. I suppose what's important is knowing who to direct that criticism at, which in this case would be Sakurai, not fans of the game who like it despite or even for it's flaws.

At any rate, I do think we have a better platform to start from based on what we've seen so far for this game, it's just a matter of will people be able to be open to a game that is different from what they expect.

 

[smashbroskilla]

M2K said that Metaknight is the only character that feels like Melee and thats why he plays him.

Where did he say that at?

@Mew2King feel free to chime in. now I'm curious.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Where did he say that at?

@Mew2King feel free to chime in. now I'm curious.

15:55 "I have fun playing MK because he's fast and I like combos. He feels like the only Melee character."

 

[666blaziken]

This thread is basically saying if you find it impossible to play smash 4, at least refrain from bashing it. After years of bashing brawl it was eventually forced aside and is no longer the main smash game. Melee took its place and now competitive smash is stronger than ever. Doesn't it seem like crapping on brawl was definitely the right thing to do? If smash 4 is *** like brawl it'll get the same treatment. The truth is if brawl was good, it would be easy to brush off the criticism, and label the naysayers as trolls, but we can't. Somehow brawl supporters have become the minority. Why do you suppose that is?

Lol d-idara got a warning, she kind of went too far. But here's what I think about what the op said. Imagine that ssbb was a flower. Unfourtunetly, this flower was a dandilion. But what made it worse was that it was being fed acid rain. In this case, the community was the acid rain because everything from organization, to the fanbase turned it sour. Now if ssb4 was a dandilion, then there is nothing we can do about it. But if iw was something beautiful like a daisy or a bird of paradise, the scene could still die out if we had the mindset that we do for ssbb. The daisy would die from all of the acid rain. The op wants us to work together as a community to support the game and give it a chance, so we could give it a healthy rain and make a beautiful flower. Yeah, I know this is corny, sue me.

 

[D-idara]

Lol d-idara got a warning, she kind of went too far. But here's what I think about what the op said. Imagine that ssbb was a flower. Unfourtunetly, this flower was a dandilion. But what made it worse was that it was being fed acid rain. In this case, the community was the acid rain because everything from organization, to the fanbase turned it sour. Now if ssb4 was a dandilion, then there is nothing we can do about it. But if iw was something beautiful like a daisy or a bird of paradise, the scene could still die out if we had the mindset that we do for ssbb. The daisy would die from all of the acid rain. The op wants us to work together as a community to support the game and give it a chance, so we could give it a healthy rain and make a beautiful flower. Yeah, I know this is corny, sue me.

It's corny but it's true, people should not give SSB4 the hammer because Brawl didn't meet their expectations in the way they wanted it to.
And I love watching competitive Smash, but I have a deep hatred for how M2K plays, he always goes for low%, cheap kill techniques instead of actually racking up damage. I prefer Armada a lot more :v

 

[smashbroskilla]

15:55 "I have fun playing MK because he's fast and I like combos. He feels like the only Melee character."

While I agree lets also note that it's metaknight we're talking about here.

 

[DaDavid]

While I agree lets also note that it's metaknight we're talking about here.

Noted, but if we have a spoken actual address as to why he plays the character... I mean doesn't it make more sense to assume that Meta Knight was discovered to be so incredible so quickly because so many people gravitated towards him?

 

[Empyrean]

It's corny but it's true, people should not give SSB4 the hammer because Brawl didn't meet their expectations in the way they wanted it to.
And I love watching competitive Smash, but I have a deep hatred for how M2K plays, he always goes for low%, cheap kill techniques instead of actually racking up damage. I prefer Armada a lot more :v

I think many vets are willing to give Smash 4 a try. Some of them are just keeping their expectations low to avoid being disappointed in the case they don't like the game, which is a reasonable thing to do. The fact that people were expecting Brawl to be better than Melee (competitively-speaking) is what made them hate the game even more when they saw the difference. If people just wait and see before making assumptions, then the mass hate will be avoided and relations in the community would already be significantly better.

I personally like M2K's playstyle. Armada is cool too.

 

[Vkrm]

Lol d-idara got a warning, she kind of went too far. But here's what I think about what the op said. Imagine that ssbb was a flower. Unfourtunetly, this flower was a dandilion. But what made it worse was that it was being fed acid rain. In this case, the community was the acid rain because everything from organization, to the fanbase turned it sour. Now if ssb4 was a dandilion, then there is nothing we can do about it. But if iw was something beautiful like a daisy or a bird of paradise, the scene could still die out if we had the mindset that we do for ssbb. The daisy would die from all of the acid rain. The op wants us to work together as a community to support the game and give it a chance, so we could give it a healthy rain and make a beautiful flower. Yeah, I know this is corny, sue me.

So what you're saying is all this fighting is the result of a bad community?

 

[666blaziken]

So what you're saying is all this fighting is the result of a bad community?

Some of it. For the most part, we are a great community, but that bitterness that transferred from melee to brawl should end. I mean, look at from64 to melee. How many people complain that melee is worse because it is easier to get out of hitstun, and it is harder to pull off combos? Nobody does that. They accept that 64 is different than melee, and continue to play 64, but accept melee for what it is. I can understand that melee is ultimately a better fighting game than brawl is, but it is annoying when people say that it sucks over minuscule things such as not having wave- dashing or l canceling, but that wasn't what made it bad; being slow, having a broken character, and preventing combos via long lad if an attack is performed near the ground and floatiness was what made it bad. but too many people emphasize on specific melee mechanics and it turns people off from the melee fanbase because they make it seem that all they want is melee. So yeah, our community could be better.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Noted, but if we have a spoken actual address as to why he plays the character... I mean doesn't it make more sense to assume that Meta Knight was discovered to be so incredible so quickly because so many people gravitated towards him?

Oh yea for sure. When I saw the smash brawl trailer I too was like "well I'm maining metaknight". My friends and I got the game on launch and a week later banned metaknight from being picked in our own circle.

 

[Creo]

This thread is one that I had kept an eye on about a year ago, upon it's initial conceiving. I haven't since shortly after then, and haven't the intentions of looking through all of the pages to read what I assume is a mix of sensibility / senseless bickering, but I more-or-less understand any which way those both could have gone. That being said, I'm not making this post to needlessly bump this thread, nor for the reason of getting myself or anyone else into any unecessary arguments / debates. Rather, my only intention is to contribute to what I believe is a thread that has (or was intended to have) relevancy for the future of us, the SSB community.

As many of you (if not all of you) are well aware, SSB4 is upon us. The recent direct has passed, giving us more of an idea of what the game will be like (at least more than we had previously known), and the foreknowledge that the game(s) will be releasing later this year. Let me start off by saying this; Super Smash Bros. 4 appears to be different! Now don't cast me off as an ignorant person; Fundamentally, it is apparent that it is still a Smash game, just as the the three prior (which isn't any surprise), but in addition, we are starting to get information about new gameplay mechanics, along with at least some catering and positive acknowledgement to the competitive audience this time around. Obviously, we do not know everything about the game as I'm certain there is still much to show of it, in addition to it not yet being in its final state, or in the hands of us players, but that time is drawing near with events such as E3 2014 right around the corner.

Now the bigger point of mentioning this is that as a community, we should not compare SSB4 to previous entries of the Super Smash Bros. series, whether it be 64, Melee or Brawl (I'm not including P:M for the sake of it being a mod). . . At least not on its competitive "worth". When I bring up comparison issues, I'm not going to lie, I'm mostly referring to the competitive Melee community, whether it be players, or anyone associated with it (though that's not to say that I mean everyone within). I actually prefer Melee to Brawl, but most of its competitive players are stuck in the past. I genuinely believe, as many others do as well, that SFIII: Third Strike is a superior game to any iteration of SFIV. While there still exists the hardcore "Third Strike only" players, the majority of the competitive community has moved on. If you like Melee, great, but I find it to be an apparent lie when Melee players deny that they aren't comparing other Smash titles to it; You generally want Melee 2.0, or nothing at all. To pose a question, do we really see players such as Mango (just an example) playing SSB4 if it isn't anything akin to Melee? Though it would prove many benefits overall to the community as a whole, I seriously have my doubts. Here's another idea; Perhaps you can play and support both games? While I am not saying that is the factual solution, there are very much a plethora of better ways to go about how we represent, manage and accept SSB4, rather than degrade, reject or abandon it or any other game within our own community. For what it's worth, 64 is, to this day, my favorite iteration of the Smash series. It is the one I find myself playing more often than not these days, upon waiting for SSB4 to release. I formerly had played a large amount of Brawl as well, having attended events and tournaments mainly to my regional scene (ended up quitting due to the saturation of MetaKnight worldwide, and what negative changes he brought to the meta-game in my opinion), and though I've somewhat temporarily exiled myself from going to Smash events the past few years, I've always pleasured myself in playing Melee with the scene around me when the opportunity presents itself (I live in R.I. if that really matters any). I mention this to show that I have neither a bias for or against Melee or Brawl (those two games in particular, because that's where the community conflict really arised), but that I enjoy all of the official Smash Bros. games, 64 being my biased if any.

Amongst other problems of which I'm going to leave unmentioned, the community largely divided itself between Melee and Brawl. You've all heard it before, perhaps have even been a part of it, so I won't saturate my post with too many needless examples, but upon Brawl's release, and as time passed, it quickly became an argument of things akin to "Melee is better than Brawl", "Brawl isn't competitive because it lacks the depth and tech skill Melee possesses", etc. Looking at it that way, though I don't agree one should, it's true. Melee is faster paced, has more technical depth, etc. The problem lies in the fact that that doesn't mean Brawl isn't competitive in its own way. In fact, it is, but it just happens to be different! Brawl had its shortcomings, to be sure, within its meta-game that we created and for the developers intentions of it near undermining competitive players to begin with. I understand this, as does anyone else worth having discussion with on this matter. Now try and look at Brawl as its own entity in the series of Smash, because that's what it is. Why is it so hard for people to understand that the games could have co-existed with each other? Two of the games from the same series. Now again, Brawl had / has its problems elsewhere, be it MetaKnight, passionate players, tournament organizers, etc, but I'm focusing on the fact that many in the community would bring down Brawl just because it wasn't what they had played. There is no reason Melee players should condemn what Brawl is just because it is different, or in their mind, inferior (which is ultimately subjective). That goes for Brawl players, too. Instead, we as a community should praise the Smash series as a whole. It doesn't help much when you talk to someone from the FGC or see articles / interviews of statements such as "Brawl sucks as a fighting game, but Melee is different!" It's even worse when we are fighting amongst ourselves about those kinds of things. We should be of open arms and supportive to each and any of the Smash community, regardless of which game they prefer or play.

The grand point I'm trying to make is this; Smash 4 is coming soon. Brawl's future, I don't know how that is going to end up. I personally see it concluding shortly after the games release, but we'll have to see. As for Melee, let it be known that I am all for the publicity and success it is currently receiving, as I would be for any of the official Smash games (again, I've no hate towards Project M, I'm just more for official entries further succeeding). SSB4 is going to be big. It's going to have changes in the way it plays, and a lot of people are going to be playing it upon release. This is a new chance for our community as a whole to mature. Let us make the Smash 4 competitive scene thrive the way Melee has. . . The way Melee's is. These games can co-exist, as a community, we just have to not be dumb and let them. Imagine running both Smash 4 and Melee together at tournaments such as Evo and MLG? That's what we should be striving for, and is something I feel as if we could easily accomplish. Smash as a series has so much potential, and it doesn't have to be for just one game. I know that I will be actively a part of Smash 4's competitive scene, and I truly believe it can become something more grand, just as Melee's has become.

Some. . . Possibly even many of you may not agree with the things I have said, but I think I've made it clear with what I was at least trying to convey. Smash 4 is going to bring some change in the series, and in us as a community. It will need support and acceptance. We'll have to establish things such as a rule set that is viable for how this game is, and not assume it should be played exactly as a previous entry. We'll have to, as a community, let these games co-exist side by side, because there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to. Even for our community based tournaments, the possibility of running all four canon games together at a single event shouldn't be an afterthought to anyone. I'll leave it that, because I've said much more than I had intended. Ha ha. I really hope Smash 4 can become the success that I, and many others feel that it has the potential to be.

 

[Vkrm]

The melee community **** on brawl because brawl was ****. It's that simple. I'm guessing the only reason people in the smash 4/ brawl side don't want their game compared to melee (or 64) is because they know its got zero chance of measuring up.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Are you trying to start a new flame war? On the off chance you aren't, it's writing off smash 4 like it's a foregone conclusion that keeps casuals on your back. I hope you enjoy a long list of people calling off your callous and basically ignorant behavior.

 

[RelaxAlax]

This thread is one that I had kept an eye on about a year ago, upon it's initial conceiving. I haven't since shortly after then, and haven't the intentions of looking through all of the pages to read what I assume is a mix of sensibility / senseless bickering, but I more-or-less understand any which way those both could have gone. That being said, I'm not making this post to needlessly bump this thread, nor for the reason of getting myself or anyone else into any unecessary arguments / debates. Rather, my only intention is to contribute to what I believe is a thread that has (or was intended to have) relevancy for the future of us, the SSB community.

As many of you (if not all of you) are well aware, SSB4 is upon us. The recent direct has passed, giving us more of an idea of what the game will be like (at least more than we had previously known), and the foreknowledge that the game(s) will be releasing later this year. Let me start off by saying this; Super Smash Bros. 4 appears to be different! Now don't cast me off as an ignorant person; Fundamentally, it is apparent that it is still a Smash game, just as the the three prior (which isn't any surprise), but in addition, we are starting to get information about new gameplay mechanics, along with at least some catering and positive acknowledgement to the competitive audience this time around. Obviously, we do not know everything about the game as I'm certain there is still much to show of it, in addition to it not yet being in its final state, or in the hands of us players, but that time is drawing near with events such as E3 2014 right around the corner.

Now the bigger point of mentioning this is that as a community, we should not compare SSB4 to previous entries of the Super Smash Bros. series, whether it be 64, Melee or Brawl (I'm not including P:M for the sake of it being a mod). . . At least not on its competitive "worth". When I bring up comparison issues, I'm not going to lie, I'm mostly referring to the competitive Melee community, whether it be players, or anyone associated with it (though that's not to say that I mean everyone within). For what it's worth, 64 is, to this day, my favorite iteration of the Smash series. It is the one I find myself playing more often than not these days, upon waiting for SSB4 to release. I formerly had played a large amount of Brawl as well, having attended events and tournaments mainly to my regional scene (ended up quitting due to the saturation of MetaKnight worldwide, and what negative changes he brought to the meta-game in my opinion), and though I've somewhat temporarily exiled myself from going to Smash events the past few years, I've always pleasured myself in playing Melee with the scene around me when the opportunity presents itself (I live in R.I. if that really matters any). I mention this to show that I have neither a bias for or against Melee or Brawl (those two games in particular, because that's where the community conflict really arised), but that I enjoy all of the official Smash Bros. games, 64 being my biased if any.

Amongst other problems of which I'm going to leave unmentioned, the community largely divided itself between Melee and Brawl. You've all heard it before, perhaps have even been a part of it, so I won't saturate my post with too many needless examples, but upon Brawl's release, and as time passed, it quickly became an argument of things akin to "Melee is better than Brawl", "Brawl isn't competitive because it lacks the depth and tech skill Melee possesses", etc. Looking at it that way, though I don't agree one should, it's true. Melee is faster paced, has more technical depth, etc. The problem lies in the fact that that doesn't mean Brawl isn't competitive in its own way. In fact, it is, but it just happens to be different! Brawl had its shortcomings, to be sure, within its meta-game that we created and for the developers intentions of it near undermining competitive players to begin with. I understand this, as does anyone else worth having discussion with on this matter. Now try and look at Brawl as its own entity in the series of Smash, because that's what it is. Why is it so hard for people to understand that the games could have co-existed with each other? Two of the games from the same series. Now again, Brawl had / has its problem elsewhere, be it MetaKnight, passionate players, tournament organizers, etc, but I'm focusing on the fact that many in the community would bring down Brawl just because it wasn't what they had played. There is no reason Melee players should condemn what Brawl is just because it is different, or in their mind, inferior (which is ultimately subjective). That goes for Brawl players, too. Instead, we as a community should praise the Smash series as a whole. It doesn't help much when you talk to someone from the FGC or see articles / interviews of statements such as "Brawl sucks as a fighting game, but Melee is different!" It's even worse when we are fighting amongst ourselves about those kinds of things. We should be of open arms and supportive to each and any of the Smash community, regardless of which game they prefer or play.

The grand point I'm trying to make is this; Smash 4 is coming soon. Brawl's future, I don't know how that is going to end up. I personally see it concluding shortly after the games release, but we'll have to see. As for Melee, let it be known that I am all for the publicity and success it is currently receiving, as I would be for any of the official Smash games (again, I've no hate towards Project M, I'm just more for official entries further succeeding). SSB4 is going to be big. It's going to have changes in the way it plays, and a lot of people are going to be playing it upon release. This is a new chance for our community as a whole to mature. Let us make the Smash 4 competitive scene thrive the way Melee has. . . The way Melee's is. These games can co-exist, as a community, we just have to not be dumb and let them. Imagine running both Smash 4 and Melee together at tournaments such as Evo and MLG? That's what we should be striving for, and is something I feel as if we could easily accomplish. Smash as a series has so much potential, and it doesn't have to be for just one game. I know that I will be actively a part of Smash 4's competitive scene, and I truly believe it can become something more grand, just as Melee's has become.

Some. . . Possibly even many of you may not agree with the things I have said, but I think I've made it clear with what I was at least trying to convey. Smash 4 is going to bring some change in the series, and in us as a community. It will need support and acceptance. We'll have to establish things such as a rule set that is viable for how this game is, and not assume it should be played exactly as a previous entry. We'll have to, as a community, let these games co-exist side by side, because there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to. Even for our community based tournaments, the possibility of running all four canon games together at a single event shouldn't be an afterthought to anyone. I'll leave it that, because I've said much more than I had intended. Ha ha. I really hope Smash 4 can become the success that I, and many others feel that it has the potential to be.

The melee community **** on brawl because brawl was ****. It's that simple. I'm guessing the only reason people in the smash 4/ brawl side don't want their game compared to melee (or 64) is because they know its got zero chance of measuring up.

Quite literally opposite posts; one long, deep, understanding and constructive; the other, condemning, close-minded and biased.

But I agree with you Creo. I'm sure AA does as well. With the coming months we need to make a mindset of how we'll approach this game, hopefully in a positive light. What are the proper steps though? What will happen day one? These are questions we need to consider, because sooner or later it'll be release day (I remember being in this thread like it was yesterday - when it was 2 months ago. )

I'd love to help as much as I can. I was too young and inexperienced with past entries but I want to become a part of this one. TO, big part of community, whatever it may be.

 

[---]

Calm down everyone, we've locked this thread before for bad behavior and we will do it again if needed.

I'd suggest taking a look at the OP as it's exactly this kind of behavior that this thread is calling out and asking people to avoid.

 

[DaDavid]

The melee community **** on brawl because brawl was ****. It's that simple. I'm guessing the only reason people in the smash 4/ brawl side don't want their game compared to melee (or 64) is because they know its got zero chance of measuring up.

Though it runs the risk of setting you off, I do need to point this post out as exactly the sort of person to ignore during the first few months of post-release.

 

[Mewtwo_soul]

Honestly here's how I see it. I was one of those people who didn't mind Brawl casually (but that can apply to any game) but competitive I easily pronounced how awful it truly was at times. The people who are content fail to understand a simple concept:

They would be content regardless of how the game played out. It's the same fashion in CoD and many other major series where the hardcore fans point out flaws but are ignored over the countless fans who play the game within a limited time frame and move on. This is not true for content fans (and some content fans can be hardcore fans I'm not saying otherwise), but those who stay with a game for a large portion of time are a minority within that majority as they call it.

People will be willing to give the new Smash a chance, there are those who are already dismissing it, but they'd dismiss it regardless of which stance they took because that's just a mindset some have.

On the other hand, people make complaints in hopes game designers will see them and make changes. Same reason you see people talk about the problematic spawns in CoD or any other major series. (Fighter/Shooter/other) and honestly I don't blame them when it seems they are opted to be ignored, because the creators (developers/designers/other) often turn a blind eye instead of paying attention to what they should fix. (which again to those content players, it won't harm your experience of being content if they "fix" problems others have.)

Now, I don't know about you, but I'd love Smash 4 to be an improved game in all senses, not in regards to Melee, but in general. If it was an improvement how does it hurt those who would be content to have better mechanics (which we see in some regards: IE : removal of tripping/etc.) in the first place? Because it helps competitive players enjoy a different playstyle? When in either regard it won't hurt their ability to enjoy the game or play it in a specific fashion?

For the community to improve, the sides need to learn they can coexist and both sides can get what they want, but if competitive players get screwed, you can't really say they have no basis for complaints, if you enjoy it or will enjoy it anyway.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I think the best part about Smash 4 is it looks fun. I'm of the mindset that with every game there is a line, and when you cross it you aren't playing it for the fun anymore. I mean, sure, if it's a tournemant with money on the line then go for it, but we should always remember that this is a game Sakurai and his team made to be an enjoyable experience. This may be a naive and optimistic view but hey, it's what I do. If you enjoy a competetive and balanced fighting arena, great. If you like a wild, punchathon bonanza with dragoons flying all over the place, cool. Let's just not kill each other over it.

 

[Vkrm]

Though it runs the risk of setting you off, I do need to point this post out as exactly the sort of person to ignore during the first few months of post-release.

Here's the problem with that. When a game has serious flaws like brawl there's going to be a lot lot lot of people posting about the stuff they don't like. They tried the same thing when we got brawl and it didn't make a bit of difference. I don't think smash 4 will be as bad brawl though.

 

[Reader]

I agree. We need to change Let's start by respecting each others opinions, okay?

 

[---]

It's true that people have the right to their own opinion, but they have to express it both respectfully and subjectively. Which as a mod, this is sadly a lot harder than it sounds for a lot of people to fully grasp.

Melee vs Brawl was the result of two communities talking smack about each other, often on purpose with the intent of starting a riot. The goal of this thread is to plead to the entire Smash community to avoid this from happening again among other issues that have plagued us.

When people say to judge Smash 4 on it's own merits it is in a direct response to preventing riots, rather than being defensive and trying to avoid hurt feelings (just look at the Ridley thread if you want to see people being defensive and trying to avoid hurt feelings).

 

[Cassio]

Here's the problem with that. When a game has serious flaws like brawl there's going to be a lot lot lot of people posting about the stuff they don't like. They tried the same thing when we got brawl and it didn't make a bit of difference. I don't think smash 4 will be as bad brawl though.

The problem is you dont know what youre talking about. I dont mean that as a personal insult, your claims are false and you shouldnt spread ignorance of smash games when there are people who know what theyre talking about, it reflects badly on the community.

Also Ive still meant to respond to the old last post, just havent had time.

 

[slicesabre]

Here is the question I've always posed but I've never really gotten a straight answer about: Why does Melee get to be the only fighting game that stays stuck 13 years in the past?

Think about it is the Street Fighter fanbase split because a large percentage of them prefer 3rd Strike over SF4(and all its iterations)? No those purists have stayed with their 3rd Strike and whatnot but the competitive scene and the overall Street Fighter fanbase have moved on.

I could go one and on about other fighting games series and their march into the future but I won't cause we'll be here all day. It is my personal opinion that the fanbase's desire to stay with Melee is self destructive. The competitive Smash scene NEEDS to move on if they wish to be taken seriously in the future. I mean I find it rather sad that the scene that considers themselves the most knowledgeable and skilled at Smash could POTENTIALLY choose to skip this game as well and stay with a game made 13 years ago rather than work within the confines of that game like every other fighting game. I love Melee and it looked great for the times but it is absolutely jarring to look at now when it is played on the same stage as Blazblue and SF.

Get over "ugh we don't need hd or we gots dolphin or we gots PM" complaints after the while the uninformed will look and think "This game looks like crap didn't they make others?" and your response" "Ugh Brawl and Smash 4 were crap." That is completely counterproductive and a strike against the entire Smash bros brand which is actually great and all of the games have been terrific even if Smash 4 is considered amazing by the larger fanbase and press but 'uncompetitive' like Brawl by the other fanbase.

Realistically speaking I don't expect the Competitive Smash community, that sticks to Melee, to accept Smash 4 at all because they'll be grading it against Melee despite their denials that that's not what they're doing instead of making the game work like they did with Melee in the first place. The competitive smash community honestly desires a Melee 2.0 with just an updated roster because in their minds Melee is perfection and on a certain level if another Smash game were to surpass that they'll feel that some of their time with Melee is now forgotten and will refuse Smash 4 on that basis as well.

All and all I hope the scene does figure something out or else you will cause the eventual death of your own scene being stuck in the past.

 

[ChikoLad]

To me, "Melee fans" should stick to Melee. As in, if you only like the competitive scene for Smash Bros and don't play it for anything else, and only play Melee in that regard, keep doing that. Don't discourage people from trying to set up a scene for other games in the series though, ESPECIALLY the latest entry that just so happens to have official online play, which is a god send for any competitive scene.

I myself, am a Smash fan. I enjoy Melee the most on a competitive level (not including P:M), but Brawl is my favourite overall game. If Brawl was as good as Melee as a competitive game, I'd play that for competition. If Smash 4 is just as good as Melee (this does not means it plays identically to Melee, but rather, has enough depth in it's own mechanics to be a good game for skillful play), then I will use that as my long term competitive game.

 

[DaDavid]

Honestly here's how I see it. I was one of those people who didn't mind Brawl casually (but that can apply to any game) but competitive I easily pronounced how awful it truly was at times. The people who are content fail to understand a simple concept:

They would be content regardless of how the game played out. It's the same fashion in CoD and many other major series where the hardcore fans point out flaws but are ignored over the countless fans who play the game within a limited time frame and move on. This is not true for content fans (and some content fans can be hardcore fans I'm not saying otherwise), but those who stay with a game for a large portion of time are a minority within that majority as they call it.

People will be willing to give the new Smash a chance, there are those who are already dismissing it, but they'd dismiss it regardless of which stance they took because that's just a mindset some have.

On the other hand, people make complaints in hopes game designers will see them and make changes. Same reason you see people talk about the problematic spawns in CoD or any other major series. (Fighter/Shooter/other) and honestly I don't blame them when it seems they are opted to be ignored, because the creators (developers/designers/other) often turn a blind eye instead of paying attention to what they should fix. (which again to those content players, it won't harm your experience of being content if they "fix" problems others have.)

Now, I don't know about you, but I'd love Smash 4 to be an improved game in all senses, not in regards to Melee, but in general. If it was an improvement how does it hurt those who would be content to have better mechanics (which we see in some regards: IE : removal of tripping/etc.) in the first place? Because it helps competitive players enjoy a different playstyle? When in either regard it won't hurt their ability to enjoy the game or play it in a specific fashion?

For the community to improve, the sides need to learn they can coexist and both sides can get what they want, but if competitive players get screwed, you can't really say they have no basis for complaints, if you enjoy it or will enjoy it anyway.

I understand the need to voice complaints when a game doesn't meet your needs/wants. I just don't understand why that would need to manifest itself in fans complaining to other fans. The people who liked/like Brawl aren't in a position to create change, so telling them what's wrong with the game they like isn't accomplishing anything.

Complaints/feedback ought to be voiced at the people in position to create change, basically.

 

[thesage]

Here is the question I've always posed but I've never really gotten a straight answer about: Why does Melee get to be the only fighting game that stays stuck 13 years in the past?

Think about it is the Street Fighter fanbase split because a large percentage of them prefer 3rd Strike over SF4(and all its iterations)? No those purists have stayed with their 3rd Strike and whatnot but the competitive scene and the overall Street Fighter fanbase have moved on.

You're comparing smash to the wrong games. What happened with smash is very similar to what happened with the soul caliber series.

I remember in the days before brawl was out a lot of people in the competitive community wanted the next game to fix a lot of the flaws melee had (character balance, camping, stages). Instead we got something worse. It's a miracle smash is still around today.

 

[DaDavid]

While I wouldn't agree with the objective damning of Smash as "worse" I will say that you're right. Brawl was something drastically different from what most of the competitive scene wanted, so it's not a surprise that a lot of people who liked Melee for what it is weren't eager to jump on board with such a different title.

The change in the SF games (from my admittedly meager knowledge on the franchise) wasn't as drastic. I'll basically just say that I, as a 100% casual fighting game fan at the time, I noticed the changes from Melee to Brawl. On the other hand, I can't honestly point out to you game-play differences between those 3rd Strike and SF4. If the changes are THAT noticeable to players of all levels, someone is going to feel betrayed.

 

[A Lucky Person]

As you can see, I'm a relatively new member. I joined a few months ago, but I only started posting last week. I never joined the boards in the years before because of the hostility Melee purists have for Brawl (I'm a Brawl fan), but with the new games I have been given hope. Hope of a better community. A community of support and mutual love for all things Smash Bros. A community that gives the games criticism where criticism is due, but not in a hateful or demeaning way toward players who did not develop the game. A community that perpetuates itself in success and unity, rather than bias and division.

I want to have fun competitively without worrying about being criticized about my game choice in the future. It's one thing if a Street Fighter player came in here and bashed what we like, but we do it to each other. If Sm4sh ends up creating another divide within the Smash community, I'll likely take back up my passive role.

If everyone could be open-minded and not pricks, we could make both the Melee and Sm4sh communities thrive without hurling (too many) insults at one another. We're in a unique position to change the way we want to think about the next game before it comes out, and through that we can enjoy Sm4sh for what it is: a brand new experience for everyone.

Many others like me have created accounts solely for the joy of speculating and enjoying this new community that's forming. Let's not ruin it for everyone, shall we?

 

[Kirks21]

I'm sorry in advance for making this joke. But this is what this thread reminds me of:

In any case, this is all I have to say: Divided we fight, together we Smash.

 

[Sucumbio]

yeah it is kinda reading like a hallmark gift card, but the sentiment is sound. in-fighting makes the community look stupid, not that everyone cares how they look, just saying. but again we cannot blame the fans for their negative reaction to the game. we -CAN- call attention to the blatantly idiotic mentality that surfaced when public outcry turned into just plain bullying. obviously brawl was doomed to be mocked when things like tripping were put in. it was a design choice, and it was a bad call. it didn't make it any more fun, and it really didn't make it less competition worthy, it just... made people angry. but instead of turning that around into something worthwhile, it became a fueling point with which to just have people shaking their fists at each other while spouting nonsense. I feel as if this FD only approach to the S4 "glory" mode is bordering on this type of decision, you know the meme:

No X, Fox Only, Final Destination

I mean, it IS a little silly how serious FGCs get over their games, but that's us, that's what we do, so F Sakuri if he doesn't want our types of gamers enjoying it, he shouldn't call it a fighting game! grr rant over. back on point.

I recall seeing some very early posts on gamefaqs by m2k regarding his first impressions of brawl. it basically boiled down to "this game sucks the only decent character is marth." we feel comfortable with the previous games of any FGS that we've played... but lo and behold m2k discovered meta knight and went straight to the top because he had found his niche in brawl as he had in melee with marth and sheik.

SO, long story short, we are definitely going to pass judgement on the new title when it comes out. thank god the 3ds version drops first so people can test it out before getting into the wiiU version... but when we pass judgement, let us do so with the knowledge that this isn't melee, it's not brawl, it's a unique title building off of elements from all 3 past titles, and ultimately if it "sucks" then at least lets respect the players who still enjoy it, competitively or otherwise.

 

[fabulouspants]

melee players have actively destroyed the brawl scene for years

 

[RODO]

I want to be able to play Smash 4 and watch Melee.

 

[slicesabre]

Instead we got something worse. It's a miracle smash is still around today.

Your problem is you're thinking from the perceptive of a smash competitive thought process.

The overall fanbase loved Brawl. You guys gotta stop looking through the mirror of: the tourny scene doesn't like it so the game is a flop. It makes everyone stop taking you seriously.

 

[otter]

Agreed, when there is a cal for criticism we should be honest with ourselves and levy that criticism against it. I suppose what's important is knowing who to direct that criticism at, which in this case would be Sakurai, not fans of the game who like it despite or even for it's flaws.

At any rate, I do think we have a better platform to start from based on what we've seen so far for this game, it's just a matter of will people be able to be open to a game that is different from what they expect.

I've personally never witnessed any hate against Brawl players. It's people mentioning criticism with the game, and then Brawl players trying to censor it.

I genuinely believe, as many others do as well, that SFIII: Third Strike is a superior game to any iteration of SFIV. While there still exists the hardcore "Third Strike only" players, the majority of the competitive community has moved on.

This is a bad analogy. People hated SF4 just as much as Brawl when it came out. It was then patched 6 times, combined with the game just sort of aging well. Brawl was never fixed, and got worse with time. Furthermore, what is the downside of "living in the past" if it's the only way to play a good game? Smash has nothing to move on to. Everyone loves project m, for example.

Here is the question I've always posed but I've never really gotten a straight answer about: Why does Melee get to be the only fighting game that stays stuck 13 years in the past?

Think about it is the Street Fighter fanbase split because a large percentage of them prefer 3rd Strike over SF4(and all its iterations)? No those purists have stayed with their 3rd Strike and whatnot but the competitive scene and the overall Street Fighter fanbase have moved on.

Because there are tons of good games to play. UMv3, SF4, KOF13, GG, BB, Tekken, Injstice... all of these games have iterations in the last two years that are better than Brawl. If it was vanilla sf4 or nothing, everyone would still be playing Third Strike and Capcom vs SNK2 to this day. The FGC is the worst example to use for people that will play a bad game because it's new. They would rather play SF2 (and often do) than a Brawl equivalent.

Your problem is you're thinking from the perceptive of a smash competitive thought process.

The overall fanbase loved Brawl. You guys gotta stop looking through the mirror of: the tourny scene doesn't like it so the game is a flop. It makes everyone stop taking you seriously.

This is sort of viable for now. It doesn't explain why the primary fan base needs a bad game, but why they allow it. Thing is, esports is getting huge, people don't throw around the term "tourneyfag" anymore. There are probably enough casual users left o get them through his game but that idea is fading. Not everyone will be a tournament player obviously, but nearly everyone will be aware of the scene surrounding any video game they play. All successful developers are embracing the idea of working with thier hardcore users. Soon you guys will need a real argument. "You're right but nobodies listening" is temporary.

 

[slicesabre]

This is sort of viable for now. It doesn't explain why the primary fan base needs a bad game, but why they allow it. Thing is, esports is getting huge, people don't throw around the term "tourneyfag" anymore. There are probably enough casual users left o get them through his game but that idea is fading. Not everyone will be a tournament player obviously, but nearly everyone will be aware of the scene surrounding any video game they play. All successful developers are embracing the idea of working with thier hardcore users. Soon you guys will need a real argument. "You're right but nobodies listening" is temporary.

So you honestly believe the vast majority 11+ million people that bought Brawl are all aware of the tourney scene, take it to heart and they will refuse to buy Smash 4 in significant because it doesn't cater to competitive people?

I'm sorry but I just do not buy that arguement in the least. This is Smash not Street Fighter.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll just come out with it...
The silly kids on Miiverse are overall the better section of the fanbase. Sure they still fight and such, but I've noticed that they're overall alot nicer and more accepting than us. It's no wonder so many people are against competitive play, we've got SSB's biggest collection of jerks and it shows.

 

[otter]

So you honestly believe the vast majority 11+ million people that bought Brawl are all aware of the tourney scene, take it to heart and they will refuse to buy Smash 4 in significant because it doesn't cater to competitive people?

I'm sorry but I just do not buy that arguement in the least. This is Smash not Street Fighter.

Are you arguing that there aren't millions of more people into competitive gaming since Brawl came out and growing extremely fast, or are you arguing that there are, but it will never reach 11 million or more Smash players?


Goods luck either way, but I'm still interested.

 

[666blaziken]

So you honestly believe the vast majority 11+ million people that bought Brawl are all aware of the tourney scene, take it to heart and they will refuse to buy Smash 4 in significant because it doesn't cater to competitive people?

I'm sorry but I just do not buy that arguement in the least. This is Smash not Street Fighter.

The 11 million people would buy smash 4 anyway even if it did cater to people who play "for glory" as long as it doesn't remove what makes smash good in the first place (items, cool single player modes, tons of extras). As long as those are in place and the gameplay is overall fun, the people who play "for fun" will buy it. The problem is that while brawl was considered a success, it would've had more sales if it played more like project M, or at the very least, been designed to be fast paced and encouraged a balance of aggressive and defensive play rather than purely defensive. It didn't have to play like melee, but adding tripping, and making the game floaty and slow made the game overall worse. Yes, I know the game is different, but brawl still has a lot of flaws.