For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

[Saito]

The kind with a budget. I'm sorry but I just plain can't afford a Wii U to play smash on when I already have a 3DS in the works.

Even if you have a budget that doesn't mean you can't get them both.

Get a Wii U when you have the money for it. It's not like smash is going anywhere anytime soon. Even if you get it in 2015 you can still enjoy it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Even if you have a budget that doesn't mean you can't get them both.

Get a Wii U when you have the money for it. It's not like smash is going anywhere anytime soon. Even if you get it in 2015 you can still enjoy it.

But in all reality if I already had a smash game I enjoyed dishing out upwards on 400 bucks (after getting the game too) just doesn't make economic sense when I already was enjoying myself. Others will feel the same (or have bills to pay and such).

 

[Aninymouse]

Even if you have a budget that doesn't mean you can't get them both.

Get a Wii U when you have the money for it. It's not like smash is going anywhere anytime soon. Even if you get it in 2015 you can still enjoy it.

That is possible, perhaps.

I think Capp's point is just this: having 3DS tournaments here and there has a lot of unrealized potential for people like him. I'd be in his boat also, if I hadn't traded in nearly every game I owned to PlayNTrade, just to get a WiiU for Monster Hunter and Smash a while back. I have a 3DS, but I had to give up ALL of my other retro games and old favorites to be able to afford it. All I kept were the Zelda games.

Most of us will start with the 3DS version. When the WiiU version is out, a lot of people will go hard into that game, that is true. But there is still a much, much larger 3DS install base, and since Smash 3DS is advertised to run like a clock and to contain all the roster and fun of its big brother, there really is no reason not to keep the 3DS events going.

Now, my biggest hope is that Nintendo will take a cue from Pokemon and will organize the 3DS WiFi events themselves, because they do a great job of keeping the tournaments and challenges coming throughout the year, and throughout the life of the game. Forums like Smashboards, 4chan, and others will be constantly holding 3DS events as well, due to the larger install base and focus on WiFi, and lower entry level price point. For instance, I took second place in a Pokemon tournament on /vp/ last winter. It was all held on WiFi. People from all over the world exchanged friend codes and moved up the brackets, for fun and for glory. It was a big success, and I helped to keep it going and establish a rotating rhythm, as well as ground rules and building a community of acceptance in the hostile world that is 4chan. To this day, the /vp/ Gym Challenge & Mono-type Tournament still continues. It's not as big as it was, but Pokemon tends to grow stale faster than Smash does. I'm not involved in it anymore, either, so I might not understand all that's going on with it anymore. I don't share this anecdote to toot my own horn, but to prove a point: grassroots 3DS events are easy to start because there are many, many more people from all over the world who own the 3DS and have internet access, but may not have a TV or a WiiU. Heck, for a time, I was running the Pokemon tournaments from McDonalds WiFi, due to the lack of a computer!

There will be online forum events for WiiU as well, but the main focus for WiiU for the top players will be to travel, meet up, and compete in person. WiiU online events will still be somewhat popular, though. The point I feel @ LiteralGrill is making is that people shouldn't look down on the 3DS events or discourage them, since they have a unique dynamic. They will even do well side-by-side with the traditional WiiU events, though, like @itsaxelol said, there is no way to "sell" 3DS events to viewers and bystanders - only to the players, really. So yes, the WiiU has distinct advantages as well. But both games can and should thrive together.

 

[Xigger]

What kind of fan doesn't buy both Smash games?

Not every fan of Smash Bros wants to buy both versions or both consoles.

Also doesn't help that the Wii U's sales is roughly half of Brawl's sales. Not every fan wants to buy a console for just a few games.

 

[ChillerDuu]

I begin to wonder if we ever agreed on anything in this 20 page mess...

 

[Saito]

Not every fan wants to buy a console for just a few games.

Literally the only thing holding back the wii U right here^.

The lack of games.

It's a good system, I've had it for a while and I can say that I like it alot. It just doesn't have a lot of choices.
Get a library on here and you probably got something marvelous on your hands.


Even still, I bought a Wii U just because smash will be coming out on it eventually.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

The problem is your coming from a faulty assumption. Does Smash really need a dynamic combo system. Does it need combos at all? Does it need a united Smash comunity? These things appeal to only a small group of players and not everyone (see above). However, they are in direct contrast to the design of the game. You can cancel hitstun because it gives control back to the defender. He gets a change to turn the battle. He doesn't have to sit there and be pummeled because he got hit by one attack. So I'm not sure how these changes "synergize poorly" when they reach the desired effect.

A training mode is a bandage, not a solution. It doesn't matter how much training you give players. The reason for the cancel is to give the players some control. Removing that is to remove control, which is great for the attacker. But removing it and adding a training more means you still have the issue (players are very vulnerable after a hit and have no out nor a way to get their footing). Unlike most competitive Smash players, most people have careers, families, and a social life. So they can't dedicate the time to use the training mode and get to the point where they can actually enjoy the game. This is why Smash was designed the way it is. It's also one of the major reasons the series has survived so long where many other cross overs have failed. The main game needs to be done right. A better tutorial does nothing but make people upset that they are playing a tutorial.

Forgive me for swiping this from another topic on the E3 board, but...

Whoa whoa whoa. What the heck is this?! I'm not a tourneygoer by any means and find myself regularly annoyed from the new D1 #BANNED meme going on with stages. But are you seriously saying that SSB4 doesn't need a community on at least a non-aggressive page? Are you really saying that Sakurai should deliberately make it more difficult to achieve this kind of play? And are you saying that learning the game and getting better *cannot* be fun? This is the sort of reactionary failure that currently ruins /v/. Items and dynamic stages and general mayhem are how a more casual player has fun, not to mention how someone who does BOTH (or any level of in between, really) can appreciate a solid engine that allows combos and a quick pace without having Melee's overwhelming speed and technicality. Sakurai has arranged online so you don't need to worry about some random good player stomping you and making you feel bad, and you still want to ignore this?

 

[Xigger]

@ TheMagicalKuja , he's talking about the "main game", as opposed to the "hardcore game". Specifically, he's saying that hitstun is a terrible method to make gameplay in-depth, because it makes combos easier by removing player control, making the system a bit more automatic rather than manual, in an attackers situation.

I can agree where he's coming from: In a combo, only one player is playing, the other is waiting to be granted control. When you have to predict the opponents moves and counter, both players are playing, and get to have fun.

 

[mimgrim]

@ TheMagicalKuja , he's talking about the "main game", as opposed to the "hardcore game". Specifically, he's saying that hitstun is a terrible method to make gameplay in-depth, because it makes combos easier by removing player control, making the system a bit more automatic rather than manual, in an attackers situation.

I can agree where he's coming from: In a combo, only one player is playing, the other is waiting to be granted control. When you have to predict the opponents moves and counter, both players are playing, and get to have fun.

Bold part is false. Directional Influence makes it so. Which is something totally unique to Smash, even when being combo'd there is a chance to get out of it with DI.

 

[Empyrean]

I can agree where he's coming from: In a combo, only one player is playing, the other is waiting to be granted control. When you have to predict the opponents moves and counter, both players are playing, and get to have fun.

I don't see how the attacker will have fun if the opponent is guaranteed to escape the combo. If you are talking about the satisfaction of making a good read to continue the combo, then that is already how Smash works in general. See mimgrim's post. DI may not seem like much, but it is a major deciding factor of how far a combo is taken.

Other fighters don't have DI. Look at Marvel. Chances are, if you get stuck in the corner, you're gonna lose the match. Your entire team might get eaten alive with you not being able to do a single thing, only hoping for your opponent to screw up. In Smash, there are very few guaranteed combos or infinites. Most of the time, you are very capable of avoiding the next attack to reset back to neutral.

But all this isn't really important now. We're 90% sure that hitstun cancelling isn't back, so combos are probably going to return to the way they used to be.

 

[Soupeschleg]

After poking around this thread for a bit, I'd like to throw my two cents out there. Play what you enjoy. I enjoy playing Super Smash Bros and Super Smash Bros Melee, so I play those games. I hope I enjoy the new Smash, but if I don't...oh well. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is no reason to feel some sort of obligation to the series. I think it's important to keep an open mind every time you play a new game and to spend enough time with it to form an educated opinion before deciding whether or not you would like to continue playing.

Also: being a TO for Smash 4 will be a *****! Nintendo is selling refurbished WiiUs for $200, so that's not too bad. If you'd like to own multiple setups, however, I wonder if you can copy data from console to console. Can you keep the save data on SD cards? I haven't really looked into it. TVs are going to spawn some lovely debates and johns on the boards and in person since HDTVs are new territory. Hope everyone that wants to play competitively agrees upon some approved monitors. Not every local TO is going to want to buy some expensive gaming monitor though, so I'm sure there will be plenty of variation from tourney to tourney.

Whatever happens, there are exciting times ahead!

 

[Xigger]

I don't see how the attacker will have fun if the opponent is guaranteed to escape the combo. If you are talking about the satisfaction of making a good read to continue the combo, then that is already how Smash works in general. See mimgrim's post. DI may not seem like much, but it is a major deciding factor of how far a combo is taken.

But all this isn't really important now. We're 90% sure that hitstun cancelling isn't back, so combos are probably going to return to the way they used to be.

Mhm. Smash isn't that bad as other fighting games, it's very nice the way it is. Combos exist at certain percentages, so you can't be combo'd over and over again. There's always a point where the fight depends on good reads on your opponent.

Bad combo systems in fighting games... Castle Crashers, get hit and launched in the air once, infinite aerial combo until you're dead 10 times over. Ew.

Not sure if we can be certain whether hitstun cancel is back or not. I'm not sure if that's something we would see in gameplay videos or not. Kind of like seeing a wall tech in a trailer.

 

[Empyrean]

Mhm. Smash isn't that bad as other fighting games, it's very nice the way it is. Combos exist at certain percentages, so you can't be combo'd over and over again. There's always a point where the fight depends on good reads on your opponent.

I know. It's perfect the way it already is in Melee, that's what I was trying to say.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Okay. This is a relevant thread now.

Palutena and Mii Fighter have customizable movesets where you can change there B moves.

How do we decide in competitive play what these moves are? Can players simply choose whatever type of combination they wish or will it be set to one that the community has deemed most balanced? I personally feel that we should let players choose how they wish to play. We let some controller customization happen in Brawl, and the result was sort of the same. How you ask? Lemme delve to a character I know. Although poor in tournaments, when Lucas started B-sticking or the like, his move pool would transform. He could air dash with Pk Magnet, do a Spark Jump (i forget terminology) and Dacus his upsmash.

Point being that it's a whole new turn to competitive smash. We knew Smash 4 would be different from it's predecessors and now we can truly see where that is employed. Today I and many will get there hands on it so a overall impression on game speed will be made.