Fixed Brawl (v0.15)

[Supermodel From Paris]

To clarify, is it a common belief that Mario's dtilt issue is a bug, or is it just a bad move by design? I honestly don't know. I assumed that moves not causing hitstun (or very little) was a bug unless it linked to another move (again, using ZSS' first jab as an example, it's like ganon's up+b).

Also, is there a way to fix moves with Royzones (ZSS' grab)? I don't mean to turn this into a ZSS issues thread, I just am most familiar with her's.

 

[GP&B]

Well, Mario's DTilt has never been particularly good until Brawl mod sets came along, but the vBrawl variation is the absolute worst of them all. Punish on hit is absolutely horrible. What I've kept reading over and over is that you can't control how much hitstun a move deals. Rather, it's based on the knockback of the move. So, it's most likely just a major design flaw in the move.

Also, Ike has the same problem with jabs as ZSS does from what I remember of level 9's deciding to counterattack midjab (which is crap, by the way but we already know that).

Then again, maybe it is a bug and not an issue with KB to hitstun ratio. Brawl supposedly has the same amount of hitstun as Melee.

 

[Revven]

It does indeed have the same hitstun as Melee except the canceling properties it has dismisses that point entirely. That's the whole problem with hitstun, but it's a design choice the devs made (even if it is highly wrong and they should be ashamed for cutting so much of the game's depth with that decision). The game would have been much better if there was zero hitstun canceling, even with the unpunishable air dodge and nontumble disallowing DI.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

It kind of defeats the purpose if hitSTUN if you can do things and escape <_<

 

[GP&B]

It kind of defeats the purpose if hitSTUN if you can do things and escape <_<

It really does. To the dismay of those wanting this fixed though, this mod is specifically concerned with unintentional programming errors, no matter how ridiculously stupid it is to cancel something that's supposed to prevent you from doing anything.

 

[Dantarion]

This mod is going to go strange places.

You are already getting "mistakes" confused with "the game not working like we thought it should".
I would rethink the mission statement of the mod, as fixing such few things will marginally affect the gameplay, and that alone will severly limit how much interest there is in this.

Balanced Brawl had a similar problem, being that its hard to get excited if its supposed to play almost exactly the same except with a few bugs fixed here and there.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Marth's Dancing Blade has transcendent priority for every hit except the third hit if you hold down.
Seems like a glitch to me, maybe put it on the change list?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, Mario's DTilt has never been particularly good until Brawl mod sets came along, but the vBrawl variation is the absolute worst of them all. Punish on hit is absolutely horrible. What I've kept reading over and over is that you can't control how much hitstun a move deals. Rather, it's based on the knockback of the move. So, it's most likely just a major design flaw in the move.

Also, Ike has the same problem with jabs as ZSS does from what I remember of level 9's deciding to counterattack midjab (which is crap, by the way but we already know that).

Then again, maybe it is a bug and not an issue with KB to hitstun ratio. Brawl supposedly has the same amount of hitstun as Melee.

Actually Mario's D-tilt is pretty usable in vBrawl. At kill percents you can set up bait situations with it.

It's mostly unusable in Melee where it gets ***** by CCing.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Dant, maybe elaborate?

 

[-Mars-]

....cypher/icarus/robgas/spring grab releasing was intentional though.... (stupid good recovery, high risk if you fail)

 

[ElDominio]

This mod is going to go strange places.

You are already getting "mistakes" confused with "the game not working like we thought it should".
I would rethink the mission statement of the mod, as fixing such few things will marginally affect the gameplay, and that alone will severly limit how much interest there is in this.

Balanced Brawl had a similar problem, being that its hard to get excited if its supposed to play almost exactly the same except with a few bugs fixed here and there.

+1

Exactly this.
That's the problem with all mods except P:M. They all get their viewpoints mixed and then end up turning into "just another Brawl mod"

B- was fun up to 1.6, then they started getting "serious", and now it's just a ******** version of B+.

This should focus on fixis exactly what can be certified as coding mistakes, a.k.a. fixing broken edgegrabs, Snake hitboxes (since it is known that the ddevs forgot to shrink hitboxes along with the character model), and such.

The problem with BBrawl is that it tried to fix percieved "balance", and the game just ended up being boring.
B+ and B- both tried to become competetive mods with "balanced" characters, now no one cares.

 

[[TSON]]

Brawl- is nowhere near Brawl+ levels, they just didn't want the game to look like dragon ball z's anime, where basically any move causes a huge explosion and instant death
P:M wanted to be a balanced Melee from the start

why would you hack a terribly balanced game and not aim to fix the balance
there's no point what

 

[Shadic]

One thing I'd really like to see would be to have the sword-swing graphics actually function properly. Sometimes the sword trails don't actually appear. If you pause the game, you can see it's because the graphic only renders from one side, and it's pointing the wrong direction.

Making the model or whatever display textures on both sides would fix this, but I'm not sure how to do so.

 

[GP&B]

One thing I'd really like to see would be to have the sword-swing graphics actually function properly. Sometimes the sword trails don't actually appear. If you pause the game, you can see it's because the graphic only renders from one side, and it's pointing the wrong direction.

Making the model or whatever display textures on both sides would fix this, but I'm not sure how to do so.

So this isn't just something that the Lloyd project is suffering from (and I'm just talking about the plain white trails without textures applied). I've even spotted the same issue on Marth at times.

 

[Shadic]

Nope, it's a problem in vanilla Brawl as well. It's bothered me for years.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

One thing I'd really like to see would be to have the sword-swing graphics actually function properly. Sometimes the sword trails don't actually appear. If you pause the game, you can see it's because the graphic only renders from one side, and it's pointing the wrong direction.

Making the model or whatever display textures on both sides would fix this, but I'm not sure how to do so.

MiscData [1] and/or MiscData[2] have to be looked at as they may have mdl0s in them. Extracting .refts often reveals textures that are colorless....

Edit: Possibly because the extractor doesn't support C14 or C18 formats.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

+1

Exactly this.
That's the problem with all mods except P:M. They all get their viewpoints mixed and then end up turning into "just another Brawl mod"

B- was fun up to 1.6, then they started getting "serious", and now it's just a ******** version of B+.

This should focus on fixis exactly what can be certified as coding mistakes, a.k.a. fixing broken edgegrabs, Snake hitboxes (since it is known that the ddevs forgot to shrink hitboxes along with the character model), and such.

The problem with BBrawl is that it tried to fix percieved "balance", and the game just ended up being boring.
B+ and B- both tried to become competetive mods with "balanced" characters, now no one cares.

Just thought I'd pop in to say that you're incredibly wrong.

Alternatively, you balance a game up to a character that has obscene mobility and priority and who can basically ensure a 0-death every time he hits you with anything, plus basically can win every matchup with only one move (1.0 luigi)... Try balancing up to a character in it that has a massively overprioritized, hugely disjoined aerial that combos into itself and one of the most powerful spikes in the game with little to no effort (1.5 ness). Try balancing up to a character in it who has a frame 5 aerial that kills at 70 and has very little endlag (1.6 Sheik).
All the while, remember to account for:
-Changing team members (very few of the original cast is still around at this point; we haven't heard from Kirk in ages and Rkey just showed up for the first time in like, a year)
-Changing ideologies of team members (I see game design very, very differently now from when I started Brawl-)
-Various issues (douchebags mucking up the works, almost no real high-level testing, long times where nobody from the team does anything due to school/lack of motivation/whatever...)
...And while you're at it, keep the game fun at every reasonable level of play. And remember, if you don't keep it well-balanced, it's going to stop being fun very, very fast for quite a few players.

I hereby deem this the "BPC challenge" and issue it to anyone who wants to call me out on "taming" Brawl-. We didn't start from a position where we reasonably could balance up. We started from a position where if we didn't balance certain members of the cast down (and that pretty damn quick) then the game was going to end up looking less like Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or SSB64 and more like Mighty Morphing Power Rangers with Ivan Ooze legal. So kindly **** your baseless criticism; I'll take that kind of crap from you again after you've successfully mastered my challenge. See you in a few years.

Moron.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I hereby accept your challenge BPC. Which from what I understand is to balance Brawl- 1.5 (which I still have) to Ness.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No... Balance Brawl- with 1.5 ness and MK, 1.0 luigi, and 1.6 sheik and wolf without nerfing anyone. Or rather, balance Brawl- where each character was at their very most broken (cross-version; for example, 1.0 DK was kinda lame, 2.0 DK was kinda awesome) and balance it without nerfing anyone.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE.

No, seriously. It might give me insight into designing Brawl 64. Also it sounds fun.

Except I don't have 1.0 anymore, is there a link to it anywhere still?

 

[ElDominio]

Just thought I'd pop in to say that you're incredibly wrong.

Alternatively, you balance a game up to a character that has obscene mobility and priority and who can basically ensure a 0-death every time he hits you with anything, plus basically can win every matchup with only one move (1.0 luigi)... Try balancing up to a character in it that has a massively overprioritized, hugely disjoined aerial that combos into itself and one of the most powerful spikes in the game with little to no effort (1.5 ness). Try balancing up to a character in it who has a frame 5 aerial that kills at 70 and has very little endlag (1.6 Sheik).
All the while, remember to account for:
-Changing team members (very few of the original cast is still around at this point; we haven't heard from Kirk in ages and Rkey just showed up for the first time in like, a year)
-Changing ideologies of team members (I see game design very, very differently now from when I started Brawl-)
-Various issues (douchebags mucking up the works, almost no real high-level testing, long times where nobody from the team does anything due to school/lack of motivation/whatever...)
...And while you're at it, keep the game fun at every reasonable level of play. And remember, if you don't keep it well-balanced, it's going to stop being fun very, very fast for quite a few players.

I hereby deem this the "BPC challenge" and issue it to anyone who wants to call me out on "taming" Brawl-. We didn't start from a position where we reasonably could balance up. We started from a position where if we didn't balance certain members of the cast down (and that pretty damn quick) then the game was going to end up looking less like Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or SSB64 and more like Mighty Morphing Power Rangers with Ivan Ooze legal. So kindly **** your baseless criticism; I'll take that kind of crap from you again after you've successfully mastered my challenge. See you in a few years.

Moron.

Holy crap, my post got you salty enough to have it sigged.

I'm now smashboards famous! Wait, but you're like Rebecca Black around here.... crap...

BTW, I didn't read your post. I'm a boss.

I see you enjoy the use of the word "Moron" quite a lot. You're definently a big man.
(notice the same tytpe of personal attack you used being used by me, I must be a genious)

And MvC3 is what you're shooting for? Awesome. All the more reason to play P:M instead of your crap.

**EDIT**
I skimmed it for the most part, then I realized how you only whined about how hard it is to make the perfect game.
You also said "balance", which originally was thrown out the window (I remember supporting you when B- was just a bunch of lines of code, look for the original thread and for me in it.)
you started caring about "balance", then the game started sucking.

If you care about it, then "fix" your obviously subjective version of "balance" and play your own mod. Sadly, no one does any more. Have fun playing in the desert with your friends.

 

[theEffinBear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier
Project:M community, you are welcome to the esteemed ElDominio if you are interested.

More on-topic, @Toomai:
if Lucario both starts and ends an ExtremeSpeed on the ground, he becomes unable to use ExtremeSpeed again until either his landing animation or getting hit, iirc. (I may be misremembering the exact conditions for the ExtremeSpeed lockout or the full set of actions that fix the lockout, but I think that's at least roughly how it happens.)

/RtEB

 

[standardtoaster]

To fix lucario's Extreme Speed glitch, put Bit Variable Clear: LA-Bit[62 in subaction 1DC.

 

[moomoomamoo]

if you're fixing pumbles not hitting people, I think wolf's pumble misses bowser or some other characters.

 

[Malurth]

So, I take it this project is dead, then. :/