Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance | Final Chapter

[Rajam]

Vig Ranmaru or dead weight like adumbrodeus

 

[Luxor]

If vig killed Cdubs/Adumb, I would be OK with that.

 

[Luxor]

ninjaaaaaaaaaaaaad

 

[giraffelasergun]

Vig Ranmaru or dead weight like adumbrodeus

Oh yoooooou!

 

[Beat!]

"Dear Power Roles,

please use your powers in a pro-town way that is intelligent and unambiguous in nature.

Sincerely,

Town"

- Overswarm

I think we should go with this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's like throwing Agent Orange all over the face of the game.

Yes, you might hit scum, but you're far more likely to hit town in the process. And you would, if you vig me.

Vig'ing blindly on Night 1 doesn't really help town, giving the rather low likelihood of success.

I'm waiting for the flip so I can start making actual connections, based on alignment.

I prefer to make my reads based on flips and concrete evidence, rather than "he said, she said", so if I live to Day 2, you'll actually see something worthwhile.

Pretty much this, vig'ing night 1 is bad play and ends up helping scum 9/10 times.

However, I'm still looking at you and Adum as inactives. You more so since you haven't posted to a quality degree like Adum has, even if I still don't like his inactivity either.

Vult Redux...as funny as that is, why avoid Zen's questions?

 

[X1-12]

Vig should no shoot. Not for the reasons Raz/RR are saying though, its just like standard procedure and it helps determine at endgame if the vig is actually a SK fakeclaiming vig

 

[Raziek]

Like I said, I'll be more useful Day 2, I promise. Otherwise you can vig me then, no questions asked. (Even though that would still be a gigantic waste of town's time. x_x)

 

[Overswarm]

Vig should no shoot. Not for the reasons Raz/RR are saying though, its just like standard procedure and it helps determine at endgame if the vig is actually a SK fakeclaiming vig

This... isn't standard procedure. Standard procedure is to kill someone if you think it will help town. Not all SK's are forced to kill every Night; in the last game I ran, Shadow didn't have to kill every Night if they didn't want to.

 

[X1-12]

the majority of SKs are compulsive though, its worth the vig not shooting imo.

 

[giraffelasergun]

Like I said, I'll be more useful Day 2, I promise. Otherwise you can vig me then, no questions asked. (Even though that would still be a gigantic waste of town's time. x_x)

Does anyone else find it strange that raziek pretty much posts "i'm town" in everyone of his posts?

 

[Overswarm]

What's your opinion on a Night 1 vig, OS?

Do you recommend it, or think it's a bad idea?

Depends on who the vig is, what his reads are, and if he can justify it later. Simply saying "Never kill on N1" is silly; there are multiple instances where that can be good (having a good read, someone being really inactive, etc.), and it is one of the few town abilities that can really screw over scum. Scum getting vigged is always a huge blow to scum.

Let's say that Frozen Flame is the vig. Imagine that adumbrodeus made a huge case against him, and then went inactive. Killing adumbrodeus wouldn't be a bad vig play; it removes an inactive and stops town from having to deal with that later. But because of his early push on Frozen, this could lead town to run a wagon on him thinking that FF is scum trying to kill one of his antagonizers. This makes it a bad choice for the vig, as once he claims Vig, it leaves him open to the Town saying "you're a serial killer" or a mafia member simply counter-claiming him because of his kill history. It adds a negative motive that people might not be able to add in.

If you don't have that "negative motive" that can be turned around, killing off the dead weight can be very helpful. We can't lynch them because we'd get no reads; it'd be useless. But they can be vigged safely because they aren't helping town and still have a chance of being scum.

In the end, it comes down to the Vig's playstyle. Not using a vig on N1 might sound like a great idea, but when you realize the vig might not live until the end it becomes less clear. Not using a vig is like not using a lynch. A lot of us said "Oh, I don't really want either of those lynches" but got on them anyway. This isn't scummy because it's a good idea.

If a vig has the entire game to choose from and can say "That guy. That guy right there. **** that guy." and decides not to use it, that can be dangerous.

Also, the math still works out.

Official Player List:
1. adumbrodeus
2. BeatStick
3. Cdubs1987
4. frozenflame751
5. Glyph
6. Gordito giraffelasergun
7. Luxor
8. Nabe
9. Nicholas1024
10. Overswarm
11. Rajam
12. Raziek
13. Red Ryu
14. Vult Redux
15. X1-12
16. Zεη


With 16 players, removing 3 every Night (assuming lynch, vig, mafia):
D1 16
D2 13
D3 10
D4 7
D5 4 (potentially lylo)

With 16 players, removing 3 every Night except the first (vig skipping a shot)
D1 16
D2 14
D3 11
D4 8
D5 5 (potentially lylo)

D3 takes 6 to lynch both times, D5 takes 3 to lynch both times.

D4 takes one more to lynch without vigging on N1, which can be awesome or disastrous depending on how many scum are left alive. If you have three scum with eight people, you're in trouble. If you have three scum with seven people, you've lost. Alternatively, if you have one scum with eight people or seven people, it doesn't really matter. It's still mostly town play.

D2 takes one more to lynch without vigging, assuming three kills. This can have a detrimental effect for a Town that has trouble with activity and/or deciding on a lynch, but otherwise has no real effect.


So the math works out in vigging every Night, assuming that three kills stays constant. There are issues with vigging, such as most good vig targets can be inexperienced users with power roles that aren't good at lurking, but if the vig has a good eye then I'm not against it.

In the end, it's up to the Vig. just like it is with all power roles.

 

[Overswarm]

the majority of SKs are compulsive though, its worth the vig not shooting imo.

Sure, let's get a false postive by making a large, generalized assumption! That's never bitten Town in the *** before.

What happens if the SK gets roleblocked?
What happens if the SK is jailed?
What happens if the SK hits someone who is bulletproof?
What happens if the SK is redirected to someone who was already being killed by mafia?

Do you just let them off scott free when they "I'm vig. I didn't shoot on day X" ?

Because the "standard practice" is to direct anyone that claims vig once they are out in the open, or to tell them to not kill. Not prior. Too many variables that Town can't keep track of.

 

[X1-12]

OS don't be an idiot, I quite clearly said it helps determine if they are a SK or not.

 

[Overswarm]

OS don't be an idiot, I quite clearly said it helps determine if they are a SK or not.

Except it doesn't. It doesn't help at all. I just listed like 4 different ways a SK could have "not made a kill" in Town's eyes. To you that'd be an instant clear, which is stupid.

 

[Xivii]

X1 are you kidding me? You've been going on with that since Halo. A vig doesn't need to not kill to show that he is town, he simply needs to play a town game.

If glg flips town, then RAN is definitely the best shot as Rajam said. If glg flips scum well then use your own mind. But please shoot Ran on a glg town flip.

 

[Overswarm]

Still think Ran's play indicated Town or Independent alignment, given that there were two equal wagons to go off of and he chose neither. Doesn't do him any good as scum.

 

[Xivii]

tee hee~ ♪

Ans wer.

Vote: Vult

 

[Vult Redux]

Vult Redux...as funny as that is, why avoid Zen's questions?

If I started giving specific reads on Zen at his request I would be contradicting my earlier statement that giving reads during Twilight is antiTown (and it is, fyi), no?

 

[X1-12]

Except it doesn't. It doesn't help at all. I just listed like 4 different ways a SK could have "not made a kill" in Town's eyes. To you that'd be an instant clear, which is stupid.

No, I said HELPS, not "instant clear", don't be an idiot.

 

[Overswarm]

No, I said HELPS, not "instant clear", don't be an idiot.

it in no way helps

How does it help? It doesn't give you any extra information whatsoever.

 

[Rajam]

Still think Ran's play indicated Town or Independent alignment, given that there were two equal wagons to go off of and he chose neither. Doesn't do him any good as scum.

wifom, specially since he was under heavy pressure

 

[Overswarm]

wifom, specially since he was under heavy pressure

At that time, the lynch was clearly between Nich and GLG. I don't think there was any pressure on Ran at all.

 

[X1-12]

If they no kill on N1 then helps rule out the possibility of compulsive serial killer. Yes I know its not fool proof and there are holes, but its still worth doing.

 

[Vult Redux]

Vig should no shoot. Not for the reasons Raz/RR are saying though, its just like standard procedure and it helps determine at endgame if the vig is actually a SK fakeclaiming vig

omg.

LOL.

 

[Xivii]

Vult: Why do you not agree with the reads I have given out?

What cases of mine do you thihk have been good?


Answering these isn't contradicting your earlier statement at all.

 

[Overswarm]

If they no kill on N1 then helps rule out the possibility of compulsive serial killer. Yes I know its not fool proof and there are holes, but its still worth doing.

Hey, let me break it down for you with a logic problem for third graders.


Here's a button. If you press this button, it'll either give you godzilla or candy. You want the candy. Godzilla will kill you.

However, if I flip a switch that you can't see, it will give you candy. It's random whether I flip this switch.

You press the button, you get candy.

Does this button always give you candy, or did I flip the switch? Will you get godzilla next time?

Because that's pretty much the situation we have here. If it "has holes", then you learn nothing. At best you get no info, at worst you get a false-positive that will give an SK a ride throughout the game.

 

[X1-12]

Yes OS but a cop investigation has holes, it could the the godfather, it could be a tailor, etc etc - I'd still take it into account when I make my decision. If there is no kill N1 then it should be factored in to the decision making process

 

[Vult Redux]

Vult: Why do you not agree with the reads I have given out?

I never said I don't agree.

I don't agree that you should have given the reads.

And by reads I mean saying things such as "x should be vigged". It gives the scum a consensus of who the Town is aiming for (and not aiming for) and lets them make a more ideal kill.

What cases of mine do you thihk have been good?

Gordito

 

[Xivii]

First one ok.

Second one: What else? You said "cases". What did you think was good about my Gord case?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Like I said, I'll be more useful Day 2, I promise. Otherwise you can vig me then, no questions asked. (Even though that would still be a gigantic waste of town's time. x_x)

I may have doubts about you because of inactivity, but I don't think it's a good idea for a vig kill on you D1.

I can see what OS is talking about for results however I do agree it would waste valuable members.

If they want to kill an inactive I would go after Adum over you personally.

 

[Xiivi]

Night 1 Begins

[collapse=Death Scene]"I can do this." Jill thought to herself as she took too the battlefield. She knew the mercenaries were outnumbered, but she never gave up hope. She had grown past her childish view of the laguz and felt more confident than ever.

She stayed atop her trusted wyvern and pursued the enemy that her comrades on foot could not reach. However as the day grew on the evening's light made it hard to tell the enemy from the ally. She decided to turn back towards the group. However she couldn't tell if she had found the group or not anymore, having let the intensity of the battle keep her focus occupied.

Jill went into a panic when she couldn't find anyone of the mercenaries recognisable in the battlefield, and amongst her confusion she let her guard down. Before she knew it her and her wyvern had been grounded by a fleet of arrows and she was mortally wounded by a ground soldier when she tried to recompose herself from the fall.

Jill wanted to cry, but she refused to let herself go out that way, instead she casually sat against her Wyvern partner waiting for the end to come.

"Father...I'm proud to have been your daughter..."[/collapse]

giraffelasergun, Jill, Vanilla Mercenary has been lynched!

The deadline for Night 1 is 02.05.11 11:59AM EST.

 

[Xiivi]

Day 2 Begins

[collapse=Event Scene]"Ahh, Jill!" Mist cried out as she ran over to her comrade.

Jill didn't give a response, looking near her final hour. However Mist took her pulse and knew there was still time to save her. She quickly got some of Jill's armour off so she could find where the most severe wounds were. Jill was actively bleeding still, but Mist had been practicing her healing technique and got the blood the clot fast before she tended to the wounds themselves. After what felt like the longest ten minutes of her life, Mist had managed to heal both Jill and her wyvern.

"Ugh...what is going on..." Jill mumbled out a bit later.

"Jill! You're alive! I was worried I was too late!" Mist hugged Jill, nearly in tears.

"Oh Mist..." Jill had to wipe away a tear herself, she was overwhelmed from her near-death experience. "...let's get back to the others and rest."

The two prepared to get onto Jill's wyvern, but before they knew it, they were surrounded. The two prepared to fight, however it wasn't long before they lost control of the fight, and this time it was Mist who was mortally wounded.

"No, Mist!" Jill said in shock as she saw it happen.

In a fit of rage she let out all of her rage on the rest on the battlefield, causing any opponents to fall back. She grabbed a hold of Mist and instantly took to the air hoping to get her to someone would could help in time.

"Don't worry Mist, I'll help you, just like you helped me." Jill said trying to comfort her comrade.

"It's alright Jill...I'm just not strong enough for this...let everyone know that I have no doubts...that we'll win." Mist managed to say before drifting into unconsciousness.

"Mist! NO! Don't die on me here, we're almost there." Jill yelled out in frustration.

However, by the time she had caught up with everyone else, it was too late. Their efforts at reviving Mist were futile, and they had to cope with yet another death. Someone mentioned something about someone else going missing, but Jill was too much of an emotional wreck to pay attention to that.

"I will avenge you Mist. Don't you worry, we will win." Jill thought to herself before she turned to sleep.[/collapse]

giraffelasergun, Jill, Vanilla Mercenary has been revived and returns to the game!

Vult Redux, Mist, Mercenary Reviver has been murdered!
adumbrodeus, ???, ??? has gone missing and been removed from the game!

The deadline for Day 2 is 02.17.11 11:59PM EST.

It takes 8/14 players for a lynch.

 

[Xivii]

That is a very dope role.

 

[Luxor]

That's... odd.

Was adum removed from inactivity or in-game? I think the latter but he's been inactive so they're both possible.

 

[Luxor]

The reviver role has me questioning mechanics and balance. Was it a oneshot revive that killed the user? Prolly not, since then Vult should have saved it for a power role. Maybe she had a revive every night but scum had it confirmed who she was or something. We lost a potentially useful role anyway

 

[X1-12]

The reviver role has me questioning mechanics and balance. Was it a oneshot revive that killed the user? Prolly not, since then Vult should have saved it for a power role. Maybe she had a revive every night but scum had it confirmed who she was or something. We lost a potentially useful role anyway

its funny because this genuinely IS a standard tell.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

wtf @ vult as an NK choice, and likewise wtf @ a reviver reviving a VT. =/

Weird part is though I'm not even angry about Vult choosing to revive GLG because at least he got his power off, assuming it wasn't like a compulsory use on the first townie to die or something.

Don't know how Vult predicted he'd pull NK aggro but damn, that was a nice call if he did predict it and simply made his play before dying.

Of course this all relies on the assumption that the death flavour is to be trusted, which isn't necessarily true. It says Vult was murdered but idk if Xiivi is just using "murdered" as standard death flavour. If he is, it's possible that Vult had to sacrifice himself to bring back GLG (definitely makes sense for a role that strong), but again, that's not what the flavour suggests.

Looks like adum was jan'd/abducted. Flavour ("gone missing and removed from the game") suggests abduction but again, this could be standardized language, since technically in a game with reviving roles (as we just saw), death is technically simply removal in function since you can still be brought back via game mechanics.

Either way, lack of flips doesn't make me happy. I expected at least two kills in a game this size but was hoping for maybe 3. No/Quiet/Balls-less vig it seems?

GLG's confirmed town analysis of the D1 wagon on him should be a good place to start. Need to actually go back and re-read vult and see if he crumbed his BAMF role, which could have lead to him being offed last night.

 

[Beat!]

I don't get it. Is adumb dead or is there a chance that he comes back?

Nich, did you check GLG's wagon?

 

[Rajam]

imo we should look at the people who almost provoked a no lynch Day 1, both times (before and after the deadline extension), and people who reduced it to "Nich or glg" (*looks at OS*)

vote: OS

He was one of the players who reduced the lynch options to either Nich or glg, and also said he wouldn't go Nich, so basically went straight against an easy target

wOULD like to hear what Ranmaru has to say, and from the ppl who disappeared from the 2nd deadline time without saying anything and letting us almost without a lynch (like Cdubs)