Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm questioning your play, Kary. I find it scummy. That's something you've asked me to do. I'm doing it. I'm explaining why. I'm asking other people for their opinions.

If I stopped posting for 12 hours, do you think you're capable (along with RR) to actually talk about other things during that 12 hours? I would honestly agree to not post for 12 hours straight if you would pretend I don't exist for 12 hours and actually play the game and analyze other things than just us.

This is my last post of the night. I might read a little bit, but let's all be honest: there are 4 of us posting, mostly 3, and it's been WAY too many posts in general, with way too little content coming from my two attackers. People are going to wake up tomorrow, read all of this, and then nothing will get done while they analyze all this.

All I ask is that people open their eyes and slow down a little. If FML decides to separate, they'll do it in their own timing. That's up to them, and they're clearly strong enough to tell you to F off and wait if they want.

Potassium, dabuz, ranmaru, zen, and sokr. You've been out of this late night dogpile. I envy you. I should have posted less, but it's not in my nature to have a point to make and just sigh and move on without making it. (you should see me in political debates...I made my stepmom flip out and swear because me and my dad were discussing gay marriage or something, and I've never heard her swear in 20 years since she married my dad.)

I'm very interested in what you 5 have to say about Xatres' posts regarding the purpose of the night kills. Why were they chosen? who gets richer when they die? who sinks lower?

I'm also very interested in what you have to say about Kary's behavior, and my recent post about it. Perhaps answer the questions I asked in a post.

If you stopped posting completely, I really wouldn't mind.

saying stuff like this though:

The only way I can imagine explaining your hand waving is that you are terrified of letting town talk about anything but how to kill me as fast as possible.

This just doesn't follow at all. Just because I don't want to talk about the mechanics of the game doesn't mean I want to talk about killing you. I want to talk about what's going on in the Day, who did what, and why. What we think of other playerslots. Stuff that actually might lead to figuring out who is scum.

If you really are scumreading me based off of this, then fair enough. But you're wrong and your argument really doesn't add up.

If you could give us an overview of your reads, that would be great. Then we can make some progress towards looking at other slots.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm very interested in what you 5 have to say about Xatres' posts regarding the purpose of the night kills. Why were they chosen? who gets richer when they die? who sinks lower?

I'm also very interested in what you have to say about Kary's behavior, and my recent post about it. Perhaps answer the questions I asked in a post.

Why: Because they were a threat to scum somehow? Who gets richer, scum? If a town vig shot, scum get richer and the vig stays dumb. (<3 vig) Who sinks lower? Obviously town cuz we lost two town.

Don't see anything wrong with Kary's play. Typical Kary play here. Trust me, I know.

Right, Kary <3? I'm pretty sure we have had plenty of arguments that ended up in one of us exploding.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary,you have self admitted to not wanting Xast dead. Stop *****ing at him then and let him focus on making reads instead of saving his own hide.Who do you think should be shot? Why is analyzing the setup intricacies and using them to help find scum or clear town a bad thing?

speculation is a waste of time. particularly looking at things like 'why did scum shoot X'. Maybe if we had a reasonable amount of information, it'd be different. But we don't.

Actually,people think. Why target ryker? He was behind raz safely. What is the motivation to shoot ata protected guy?

Obviously he wasn't safe enough. It's very unlikely he was targeted without the knowledge he could be killed.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

That is a line of thought that gives us knowledge of the opponent. You say whoever targetted him knew he would likely die. What kind of roles are there to do such a thing? Why punch out ryker n1 instead of say you or zen or kantrip or ryu? If we can say what targetted him we can know how to avoid it if it is still out there.
Also answer my who you want shot question

 

[ranmaru]

What kind of roles are there to do such a thing?

A role that has a gun. lol

Why punch out ryker n1 instead of say you or zen or kantrip or ryu?

Because [wifom]. We won't ever know why scum decided to kill ryker. Easy to just assume it was because he was ryker and he'd build steam and scum don't want that.

 

[ranmaru]

Also having played FE:A I don't know what role there would be that would have some attribute or something that would attack your SUPPORT. ****, if that happened to me in game I would ****ing cry.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

That is a line of thought that gives us knowledge of the opponent. You say whoever targetted him knew he would likely die. What kind of roles are there to do such a thing? Why punch out ryker n1 instead of say you or zen or kantrip or ryu? If we can say what targetted him we can know how to avoid it if it is still out there.
Also answer my who you want shot question

We don't know anything about what targeted who, other than Raz and Ryker are dead. And we're not going to figure it out by talking about it.

We don't know why someone would shoot Ryker (or Raz). Maybe they chose their target completely at random. We have no way of knowing.

It is not worth talking about it because we don't know anything.


I don't want to shoot anyone right now. If I had to shoot someone I would probably shoot Zen because I have a bad feeling about him and he's dangerous as scum.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

You were just entertaining that a vig might have shot ryker. Now you say it is scum. Interesting change of words.
And I am looking more at roles that can punch out multiple people or bypass protection. Mayhaos a ranged weapon would be applicable in this scenario.
Point is,there is a lot you can get from what you people just call speculation and wifom. You just need to know what you are doing

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Can you define that bad feeling? Which posts give you that feeling if any/

 

[ranmaru]

You were just entertaining that a vig might have shot ryker. Now you say it is scum. Interesting change of words.

I did? Check again. I don't care about wifom or unknowns, I care about reads.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You were just entertaining that a vig might have shot ryker. Now you say it is scum. Interesting change of words.
And I am looking more at roles that can punch out multiple people or bypass protection. Mayhaos a ranged weapon would be applicable in this scenario.
Point is,there is a lot you can get from what you people just call speculation and wifom. You just need to know what you are doing

Who is this at?

If it's me, no I wasn't saying a vig might have shot ryker.

And the point is, no you can't. We don't have any real information yet, and it's not as if this is a standard setup.

Can you define that bad feeling? Which posts give you that feeling if any/

He's not been here. He hasn't posted any reads. He's not pursuing anything. He did a good job of getting soup killed. These things and others add up to a bad feeling.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I assumed a vig killed one of them, or ... yeah, vig. Unless scum double killed somehow.

Why? Cuz Ryker. Raz? Prolly vig.


Lol.

Scum has no reason to shoot at ryker without firsg assuming that raz will be taken care of. Ergo you should think ryker was vigged,but why waste a shot like that on ryker n1 of all times.
You can not care about night speculation but its another tool to use

 

[ranmaru]

Nope. I can't think ryker was being vigged when I said Raz was prolly vigged. Nice logic though.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

It was at ran,and yea there is info we have. Two kills took place,and one was at a person everyone could assume would be protected unless they had inside info otherwise. I can get you not wanting to go down the alley but dont brick it off for everyone else

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Nope. I can't think ryker was being vigged when I said Raz was prolly vigged. Nice logic though.

Then you are saying scum knew raz would die by outside forces when as town you should have no way of thinking this

 

[ranmaru]

No, I'm not. I don't know the circumstances, those are my guesses. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. This is what you get when you ask what the wifom is.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

You're implying*
Imma go sleep then and let thread stew for a bit.

 

[ranmaru]

Also having played FE:A I don't know what role there would be that would have some attribute or something that would attack your SUPPORT. ****, if that happened to me in game I would ****ing cry.

My best guess for you, when it comes to flavor.

 

[ranmaru]

Ryu, please give some reads and talk about Dabuz/Zen for me.

I'm going to sleep.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I assumed a vig killed one of them, or ... yeah, vig. Unless scum double killed somehow.

Why? Cuz Ryker. Raz? Prolly vig.

There you go. Thinking about this doesn't help us find scum though. You know why? Because we don't have any evidence to tie night kills to living players now, unless there was a PR that tracked someone to the kill or something. Rest would be wifom "This guy did it because of [meta]!!" that runs us in circles because [wifom].

Although thinking about things like bombs are good. Obviously we want to wait for a claim before shooting some bomb lol. I know that pressure being a bomb and being stated as a shot target -> MFW:

I, like Kary, would rather focus on in-game events/evidence. You know, like things that happened yesterday, and today.

Now, I'm wondering. Why do you keep posting when you still have to catch up post wise? I think it clutters the thread when there are more important matters (your reads). It's hard for people to really not talk about you when you haven't caught up yet when it comes to reads and your direction. When I think 'direction' I think who you think is scum today, not why scum decided to kill who they may have killed. I'm also wondering how you are progressing with re-reading (Dabuz especially, since you are doing that first). I'm being patient, but I am still curious at how you are doing this.




Lol.

What idiot would vig Raz/Ryker over Pawn and other inactive slots. Seriously those two slots are terrible vig shots.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu, please give some reads and talk about Dabuz/Zen for me.

I'm going to sleep.

Ok with Zen/Dabuz.

 

[Sokr]

Also, if we decide to seperate, and it will be a joint decision by me and orbo if we do, i think sokr / kary should do the deed.

Any opposed ?

Yes. I am. I am not convinced that xast is scum and I am starting to see his side of things. Mine is a weapon for town. We have a limited number of those so I am not going to waste my one shot on someone unless I am almost certain that they are scum. Yes I realize refusing to do this can be seen as going against towns wishes and therefore scummy. I don't care. If xast is town then I can guarentee that there will be scum trying to push us to kill him. I'm not going to submit to possible scum.

FML, what do you think about Xastrn's claim that his and zen's abilities would be OP in scum's hands.

 

[Xivii]

Mother of ****ing god

 

[Xivii]

Can't sleep. Reading now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Orbo here.
Rake and I are going to.spend a while going back and forth with Xast. We will not be separating until we either come to a scum read or feel that the towns aim for xastrns head cannot be avoided.
With that being said,kantrip is the only person who has brought forth anything even resembling a case towards Xast being scum. Ryu,you are calling for his head left and right with little said on why. You need to pony up here and show us your thoughts,or else I can only think of you as a mad man shooting blanks.
Kary,you have self admitted to not wanting Xast dead. Stop *****ing at him then and let him focus on making reads instead of saving his own hide.Who do you think should be shot? Why is analyzing the setup intricacies and using them to help find scum or clear town a bad thing?
Zen who is the shot today? You think xast town so I need a name from you buddy.
At people in general, stop harassing Xast for the moment. What do we come away from this day phase if we spend the entire time *****ing over Xast? Where is the direction for tomorrow? What do we do if i refuse to separate and you need another lynch? If you don't have an answer for any of these,shut the ****ing hell up and go play mafia. I'm not gonna have this day come down to whose name got shouted the loudest by a bunch of ****tards with no reasoning or discussion about anyone else whatsoever. Truth be told if what kantrip says is true and they **** up easily as scum then I don't see them posting nearly as much and in the tone that they are.You cant touch them unless Rake and I decide so and that means you either need to get a case together and convince us or start talking about other slots. There's more than one mafiat in this game I'm sure so even if Xast ends up scum you can go and find out who his potential mates are and flush them out.

110% sure xastrn is scum.

There is no reason for him to look at huge Wifom bombs, why did player x die how did they die. Which is pointless to talk about we don't know **** about that and we are better off trying to read into the players here than trying to find that kind of crap.

They pulled this D1 as well, they aren't trying to find scum, they are trying to make themselves look better by making crap up, "Sokr is a strong town read cause we think so though it is an entire 180 from what he said about post counts. NO ONE QUICK SHOOT, JK GONNA SHOOT SOUP ON THE STUFF WE TOLD PEOPLE NOT TO DO" ''

He's doing the **** I try and get away with as scum and I know scum benefits from his play more than town would. I'm not buying his posts, nor do I care to question him anymore because I just want them dead.

I'm not gonna gun you down to get to him, your my strongest town read, but I sure and hell do not want you protecting a slot that damn well deserves to eat a bullet for what they did and posted.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Rake listen to me here, just get out of the way and let me gun him down.

I do not believe town would post like he is right now, he needs to go.

Move.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu, please give some reads and talk about Dabuz/Zen for me.

I'm going to sleep.

correction on this.

Zen I am ok with depends on a xastrn flip.

 

[Xivii]

Ran I feel like you're reading but not interpreting. Why are you ignoring mine and xastrns reasoning for being town? I don't get why anybody is doing this. I feel like some people are trying to force the scum reads despite the contrary evidence. It seems to me we are essentially weak masons.

 

[Xivii]

Pair Up: Kary

 

[Kantrip]

Kantrip how do you feel about pairing up with me now? Thoughts?

Still down. Need someone to keep me sane

 

[Kantrip]

Never mind.

****ing Zen.

 

[Kantrip]

Ran I feel like you're reading but not interpreting. Why are you ignoring mine and xastrns reasoning for being town? I don't get why anybody is doing this. I feel like some people are trying to force the scum reads despite the contrary evidence. It seems to me we are essentially weak masons.

Having roles that work the same doesn't make you masons wtf are you smoking

 

[Kantrip]

Ruy is town. I really don't see this attitude from him as scum, regardless of Xastrn's alignment.

 

[Kantrip]

Xastrn's NK speculation was stupid and I'm not going to entertain it. No one had reason to target a support unit, something else is at play that we don't know about to try to speculate.

Why not back off of OMGUS and mechanics and actually look at play for somebody other than people attacking you/people you want dead? (Wait those are the same thing)

 

[Kantrip]

Kary after all your problems with how Xastrn has been playing, do you honestly still townread him?

What do you make of Zen pairing with you?

 

[Kantrip]

FML what would make you Separate with Xastrn? Are you just waiting for us to discuss more, or are you actually trying to protect him?

I don't think we'll get much done with a huge distraction that is taking up the majority of everyone's focus/the majority want dead

 

[Kantrip]

As requested, all posts made that disagree with Xastrn or find him scummy. Some may not belong here but I tried to include only relevant posts.

xastrn leaves after being asked if he's scum:
Strike 1.

Also just gonna say if any hydra can't keep their **** straight wrt posting I will policy shoot you.

/for the good of the people

No. I think the idea of spontaneous action is more telling than orderly action. If we follow your guideline we are only giving scum the tools to blend in further. Shooting is a means of reading someone and their intentions, and if you filter it as such, it will be harder to read them. It's true that this could work in theory, but I doubt you will get people to cooperate. More importantly, I don't understand why you feel the need to bring about such rules treating us like we haven't played a game of mafia or BiM before.

I think Rake's town for now. I like Kary's intiative to question things. I don't like Xastrn treating us like we're idiots and thinking we're going to just bend to his will. I want to see what Ryker does with Raziek.

really not a fan of xastrns rule layout, not because the rules are bad but because the premise behind them is flawed

You act like the mafia won't try to influence town in this regard. I agree firm reads are great and all, but soup is right that quickfiring isn't a bad thing, you can't sit on your hands in a game like this, town has kills for the specific reason of using them, nothing is truly achieved if we spend pages upon pages rooting through undless discussion because a consensus can't be reached. And in that situation, would you really end the day without a kill ? Because personally i wouldn't. Plus, mafia's going to try to influence who is shot, so if one mafia member is in good standing, lining up people for the firing line is what'll happen, especially in games like this, you need to act and force certain things to get results, and I'm not entirely sure why you wouldn't see the advantage to using town's strength instead of holding it like a shield.



Scum will wait it out on the longer kills, don't fool yourself. Quickshots may not be super townie but they are by no means the end of the world.

Plus, why select a hammerer at all ? Logically once someone is marked for death, whoever can kill him should, selecting someone to do it is arbitrary.



If a townie panics and randomly shoots, he's a *******, if they choose to do it, then they are going to, this is why selecting an hammerer is arbitrary, no one in this game is dumb enough to kill out of panic, and if they do it to clear themselves, then we are better off less them regardless.

Also, speaking personally, I will shoot my scumpicks if they are obvious, especially considering to stop me, you'll have to kill me first. I realize this isn't the proest of town attitudes, but if scum is obvious in our face, then discussion and selection become a arbitrary time stall givign scum more time then they should have. Sure, your more likely to hit town, but that's the fact of the game, I'm not endorsing stupidity with kills, but i am endorsing the idea of actions having a greater effect than non actions. Sometimes you just have to shoot a scummy slot and see what goes down.

Also, if your actually suggesting retribution killings, your either a idiot or scum. Assuming one townie shot another , and hit a townie, your then going to throw out your own han soloing rule and the premise behind it to teach town a lesson, by eliminating more town numbers ? How is that beneficial at all ?

Xastern it's not going to work. This is somewhat different than past BiM's but fundamentally it's the same. Those rules have never worked and they never will. Debating over it is just going to give scum a chance to feign contribution.

@Xas: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/bad-idea-mafia-4-game-over-scum-wins.299020/

Please skim through this. It's not going to work. Your same rules come up in Every Single BiM game. In that game above, the biggest advocates for the system were scum themselves along with myself. You're not going to get any tells from someone's view on it.

There isn't, everyone here is reasonably intelligent.





I said in certain situations it is, which it is. If for instance kantrip read as obv scum, i'd probably just shoot him because of my read on him, especially if it's like the last BiM. If scum is glaring, isn't it my right to help town in that situation ? If i'm right, doesn't that absolve the evil of taking the chance ? Essentially if the gamble pays off, I don't see your issue with it. Even assuming my weapon breaks, technically I've done the best I can with it, right ?

I'm not saying we can't get info and all that man, you misunderstood my point, I'm saying we can't always just sit around to do it, at some point, someone has to take an action and watch the reactions. Reactions are always more telling than posts imo.



Not many would agree though ._..

They shouldn't do it any way though, I don't know why you think people will panic shoot just because they are in danger, that'd just be dumb.

IDk how many games but we won the last one (town) in part to me shooting kantrip from the hip and ryu shooting soup from the hip so...GG quickfiring lol

*******************************************

Hey guys! I will be responding as I read, so there may be a non-linear thought process as I read through.

Will that person be viewed as scum in your books?

I like this exchange from both sides. I see where Rake is coming from with threatening to kill hydras who can't keep their heads straight, but if he actually made such a kill I would feel differently. He'd definitely be held accountable for the shot and the hydra thing alone would not justify it. That said, just talking about doing it is townie for the good discussion. At the same time, I like Kary coming in with the partly-playful post poking fun about how he said "good reason." Overall a very townie and natural interaction from both of them. Town lean on both.

I want it to be known that I am not going to be using this policy, and I do expect kills to be well-informed and thought-out. Any kills on gut feels will put my FoS on the player who took the shot. There's a balance between "shoot first, ask questions later" and making an informed decision. I want it to be clear that if you want to take a shot, go for it! Just know that you should be ready to take full responsibility for a failed shot and recognize that if your reasoning isn't sound enough I won't have a problem seeing you go next.

Same question I posed to Kary, please.

This is the other side of the spectrum that we need to balance with Rake's "shoot first, ask questions later" philosophy. I think something between these two levels is ideal. We don't want to turn town into a fascist government, limiting everyone from taking any individual action, but we also don't want to be too lax so that scum can get away with walking all over our minimalistic policies. Holding everyone accountable for everything they do and asking that they at least give full warning before they pull any huge moves is a must. Giving us all time as a collective town to discuss something before it happens is also a must. Asking that no one ever be allowed to make individual plays? That's taking it too far, in my opinion.

I like this approach and have a stronger town read on Kary. Really good reasoning and thinking through the mechanics of the game, good stuff.

This is an interesting point. Even if they Switch with you they can't kill you because then they are a Support player and have used their action. They can Switch and put you in the line of fire and tell someone else to shoot you, but pairing with someone makes you quite safe from them. Thanks for this, soup.

I am actually planning on pairing up with Sokr to get a read on him (I'm confident I can get a definitive read in one Day phase of private communication with him) and I hope for him to try to read me as well. People don't have to trust me on the read alone, and I'm not going to be able to shoot him if I don't like what I see, but I can paraphrase our private communications and explain what I'm seeing and why it makes him town/scum. The idea of pairing up with someone you can read well is beneficial for sure.

I agree with soup's reads, but I want to add to the Xastrn one. I feel like what he was saying was really... almost obvious? Like it's just sticking to a form, but I'm forgetting the word I'm looking for right now. Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say? I get called out on it sometimes when my scumhunting looks really forced and is using standard tells instead of going into thought-process. Anyways, my point is that I don't like Xastrn either.

FoS: Xastrn


Soup did contradict himself but it wasn't a slip and it wasn't scummy. I got what he was trying to say and he just kind of took two approaches to responding to Kary, which caused Kary to see that as a scummy contradiction. I see this interaction as very TvT. I've been in a lot of TvT arguments with soup that have started out really damn similar to this, and I'm calling it as I see it right now. My townread Kary caught a contradiction from soup, but it was just an accident in his approach to answering rather than a scumslip.

So far:

I like Kary
I am okay with soup and Rake
I dislike Xastrn

Raziek do you think Kary is coming out of that interaction looking scummy? What do you think of how Kary answered your questions?

All three of the posts Colonel Stars made here are posts I agreed with. I like the idea of soup/Zen, Raz/Ryker, and me/sokr (and whomever else knows each other well) pairing up and getting some 1 on 1 time to develop solid reads. I think that will end up very beneficial for us. I'm hesitant to call Colonel Stars town for mechanic talk alone, but it's worth noting I like what he has to say.

This however is still a good idea. Townie points to Raz for questioning Kary after the Kary vs soup, and imaginary townie points for speaking mechanics wisdom.

I think I figured out the word I was looking for before, and that is mechanical.

Xastrn has a very mechanical approach to this game and I don't like it. I really don't like that he has a FoS on Rake for being honest that he'll take a more active approach in shooting his scumreads. This is honesty I expect and appreciate from Rake, and something that players that don't know him should still be able to understand as a good thing. However, since he's disagreeing with Xastrn's communist regime, he gets a FoS.

My opinion on the rules are that they are not going to happen. I want discussion before shots, and I like the idea of getting someone to hammer, but we are not going to be able to stop people from doing what they want, and we shouldn't have to. That kind of accountability is what helps us read players.

I actually forgot about this. Killers pick up their victims weapons, so forcing people to hammer doesn't do anything to help us, as they'll just gain a new weapon. I unfortunately have to take away Raz's imaginary townie points and give more to Zen. I still like Raz questioning Kary after KaryvsSoup though.

Yeah kinda, i feel pretty sure of myself townwise man, recent games and all have made my reading power top notch and i feel in fine form.

Role is ****ty arguably but i think i can get lucky.

Who do you wanna look at all close like, i gotta say that the ryker hydra bothers me just because E&A happened, soup is always a dice throw, zen is zen. I think that xernats hydra or w/e fosing me is actually good, like as scum, even though he has experience, he could push harder, but it's like: hey yo. I'm not actually sure what he doesn't like though, like, he said it wasn't pro town but he didnt say why it was scummy so i dont really gusta the differentiation he left there,

Ok, that took a while to catch up.

I'm liking Kary, especially in his debate with Rake. Wasn't a big fan of how him and Soup bickered down to the point of pointlessness, but I'm willing to pin that down as enthusiasm.

Slight town read on Rake. Disagreeing with Kary isn't a scum thing to do.

Not really liking Xastrn atm. That excuse about thinking in boxes wasn't good enough for me. If you really did think over the rules you proposed for 20 minutes, then the fact that you couldn't find the flaws in it between the two of you reeks to me of scum trying hide behind those rules and big posts.



Don't like this thinking at all. You're proposing to waste a day just on policy and ignorance?




I like this and completely agree with it. But you're still null to me.

@Red Ryu and Rake, let's try and let everyone know what the hell you're talking about. It makes things easier for town.

@Xastrn, after all the negative feedback you've received, do you still think a rigid set of rules is ideal for town? You obviously disagree with Rake's shoot first, explain later approach, but what do you think of Potassium's proposal of a happy medium? Also, any views on players excluding your FoS on Rake?

@Xastrn
My absence comes down to homework and yard work.
So what I'm getting from you is that despite how confident someone may be on their read, shots should not be fired withou full discussion by everyone? Do you not think that by placing rules such as anyone who shoots then explains is scum or dumb provides something for scum to hide behind?

Your obsession with activity is already proving overzealous. You let the game go on for 24 hours and you already start complaining about people sitting on their hands? I am not an inactive player by any stretch of the word, and I'm certainly not inactive in this game. Why don't you take a moment to read my posts again? I'm providing content and I'm here. What makes me inactive again?

You're going to need to explain why 1-post Sokr was a solid town while I was in the "inactive pile."

That post managed to be even more forced and mechanical than when you were trying to make rules.

dislike that ryu schtick and you can **** it on outta hurr. Ryu always plays that way.

I was wondering that myself. I thought he was just waiting for my excuse.

Like Potassium said Xatres, let's give it a RL day or two before we start worrying about activity. This desperate behaviour is only digging yourself deeper in my books. You are my strongest scum read.

Are your scumreads also intentionally bad for the sake of sparking conversation?

@Ryker/Vand

You should have experience with xastrn. Tell me if their mechanical play is telling or not. I can't decide how I want to read them.

Not exactly. I think their eforts are townie but their method of doing it is bull****. I don't understand their point system and all their other junk, and it seems like they don't either. It feels fabricated, especially when colonel stars is rated 10 on their list but they still manage to fos him for ungodly reasons. They're looking too far into things but I also like it from them because it shows they care and they do have townie intentions to do what they're doing. I'm conflicted.

That was @soup.

To Xastrn I would have to say that I still don't buy it. My initial posts were nowhere near "fluff", either.

Xastrn, I really wanna know how you are getting your reads off those reasons.

You're calling me hard scum off me making 10 goofy posts, but in that you don't seem to analyze it nor look at what I posted. You post a statistic about it, they are low in word count, but not in what exactly I said. That bugs me, because it seems like you're not trying to read into my posts at all but label them instead.

Why Kantrip is less active than Sokr.

I wanna ask this bluntly, what are you gaining from looking at those numbers alone over the context or wording? Because it looks like you're basing it off numbers instead of content in both cases.

How does this help you get those kinds of reads?

You are quite particular. There's nothing about my posts that say I COULD support them. I blatantly said it's not going to work and gave you the prime example of why it's not going to work. There was no point making a wall against your wall. Rake had already done so and for me to continue going on about would merely be a distraction, waste of day time, and give scum a chance to look pro town by supporting it. You must realize that I've been in every BiM game except the first one and these rules come up at the start of each one. It gets a bit tedious trying to explain to someone who thinks they have an original idea why it isn't.

Again, read through the game I posted (really just day 1 and then the final results) and compare that to the last BiM that was played. In the former I argued all day one for this system and scum rode it like happie doggies. Scum ***** town that game. In the latter game we got rid of the idea right away and WE ***** scum that game. I'm not sure where Kary was getting the idea that all BiM games have been lost. The other town win that I remember also avoided the system and was only won because Omni came out of no where and shot me. None of the other town were even close to reading me as scum.

If you post one of those vote counts every few posts as you said, I'll definitely shoot you. You can't define activity by number of posts. Kantrip (Potassium) has fewer posts put posted more content in that one post he made than either red ryu or even myself have made.

You've shown that you're not stupid, so this is mad grimy.

I'd imagine this. My other half hasn't even gotten to chance to fully read through the rules yet. And I want to wait for him before having a zengasm and making the game unenjoyable.
Seriously I will shoot you if you do this. That being said I completely agree with you on inactives. But this is no way to judge inactivity. And there's especially no reason for it 24 hours into the game.

the irony of xastrn having reads based off post count when arguably lower posting players are providing better content

Nothing in this thread particularly interests me. I don't like the direction we're going and I really don't like Xatres clogging the thread with their mechanical banter, because not only is it hard to read, it's hard to analyze. I don't understand why they feel the need to explain absolutely everything and it bothers me. They even went out of their way to answer something that wasn't even directed to them, which I don't understand. I'm not ready to accept that their behavior is scummy however because I feel this could just be how they play. It doesn't feel indicative of alignment enough and I'd rather judge them on who they kill, if that would be anyone.

Xatres, is there anyone you're considering to kill today? Who do you think should Kill today?

Did you think Ryker's #5 is serious?




Trying to control the game like this silly.




Sokr in the green pile with no posts...what?



What do you think about such a self-preservative mindset from Ryker? IIRC it's very unusual for him to be so worried about his own life.




Not interested in mechanics discussion and that was most of yesterday's discussion.




Where does it say this?
FML posting pretty much fluff or pairing mechanics stuff at the end of page 5 and all of page 6 (40 PP) is really bothering me.

Xastrn, ignoring post counts completely, is there anyone who stands out as suspicious to you?

Says kary jumped on ryker for being inactive when that wasn't the reason why.

Says he doesn't expect content from ryu until d2 when its the beginning of d1.

The hell xast

Okay? If i have something to say i will say it.
Xast,for such an admittedly slight read, why do you have so much over all of ten posts that are mostly null.

Is there any point you're trying to make out of this?

@Xastrn: Your explanation that Sokr gives you a town vibe off one post isn't much, but w/e, it's early in Day 1 and there's little to go on.

that xastrn is wrong with a lot of his statements and hes using way to much ammo for so weak points

If there's anyone I don't like right now it's Xastrn. @Xastrn What about Ryu's posts since #132?

@Sokr Null on Dabuz thusfar. Until this page it looks like he was just trying to be here without saying anything or even reading thoroughly since he didn't see your post or two prior to now.

Yeah about that. So what part of pawn being lazy / not invested makes him scum? I get that you might not like a player not being involved in the game. I don't follow how that makes him scum, though.

And about your town read on Sokr:



lol what bro? What part of his post gave you a town read? I'm not a mind-reader.


I don't really get you, man. I feel like all of your reads depend on how much effort a player seems to be putting in, but you don't go on to explain why that player would do that as one alignment or the other. Is sokr really more likely to be town than pawn just because he asked and answered a few cookie cutter questions?

I'm starting to doubt your intelligence because there shouldn't be anything that isn't explained as to why I think it 'hip and trendy.' Hell, it was just a form of expression to state that people were bandwagoning on the idea for no good reason. Jesus.



A part. That doesn't equal a whole. There's a bigger introspective which I've highlighted. I swear, you read posts so jaded It's no wonder your mechanical style is so hard to swallow. No??? I'm not condemning them. Please use less threatening vocabulary because I merely wanted to point what I disliked about it. Not condemn. I seriously think you need to read further into people instead of defining certain actions as scummy because your Mafia text-book says so.



What? I'm unsure. I wouldn't shoot someone with being unsure. I'll tell you right now that I have a feel of who I would shoot and who I wouldn't, but it's not enough to take that risk. FML is claiming the opposite and saying Pawn is obv scum. I see no reason why he shouldn't back up his claims and get it over with, because clearly he sees something I don't. I get a reaction out of this. I get a better read on FML based on how Pawn flips. I get better reads based on the reaction of it. I'm also pressuring players into if they're shooting or not because it gives me a base idea of their willingness and their intention. Would you shoot me, Xastrn? I want more than just hollow arguments being thrown about. They don't progress anything because no action is being done. A shot is a greater action than talking a bunch of trivial words like I'm doing with you right now. Scum isn't under any pressure to do anything presently because they have no incentive to be pressured. You look at me and say my actions are scummy because I want something done, and I look at you and say you're sitting here and you're part of the problem. You're killing this game with your incessant need to treat us all like we're idiots and passive-aggressive attitude. What do you want me to discuss about? I think Sokr is noob-scum hiding behind a bunch of meaningless questions and his attitude strikes me as weird. It feels he adds into the thread not because he wants to, because he feels he has to keep up an image. However, I don't have enough and I won't make that call. I think Rake's town for now, but I've already stated this. I honestly want to believe you're town. I've been wanting to believe it. You get on my nerves but I can set aside my personal feelings because in your twisted way you do have town's best interest. Do I agree with your Methods? Absolutely not. I get the feeling that you're trying to scumhunt in your own way, which I like. Zen disagrees with me and has a different picture of what is going on, but I'm not sure why he isn't talking. I feel Dabuns is being far too silent but I can't judge that either because there are a lot of people being silent. A part of this is because you and FML are clogging the thread. I'm skeptical of Zen, I don't know how I lean with Kary quite yet (I feel his 'vote' on FML was pretty weird and I don't like how he handled me) and then Ryu openly claiming he was a power role seems pretty ****ing stupid to be honest. The kind of stupid I don't trust and something I feel he was doing just for the sake of looking townie. There's my thoughts in a nut-shell. I didn't want to say anything because I didn't want to lead on with half-baked arguments and only gut feelings, however, to get you off my back I'm willing to be cooperative.

​

​

Not everyone plays this game like you do. I have different methods of attaining reads, but that doesn't make them scummy. A) Yeah. I'm pretty okay with cutting the crap and having FML take the shot. You treat the deadline like it's some kind of holy rule to not be broken. **** the deadline. it's relative, not absolute. B) Yeah. It's why I'm asking people if they're gonna shoot or not. I want to see more action and I want to see where people's heads are at. Claiming to shoot someone is stronger than anything, and it tells me more. I would tell you right now If I'd shoot I would shoot Sokr. You're absolutely 100% wrong on the idea of pressuring people on their statements. I'm not going to argue formalities but pressuring players on their reads and claims is how mafia works. I really don't want to go further into this but I'm pretty certain other people in this game will tell you you're wrong also.​

Why are you openly appealing to my partner? You think that's gonna change anything? ​

I thought it was eerie that you mentioned this after I mentioned it to soup privately, but I checked the times and you posted it before so. How would you say one would differentiate between manipulation and simply "putting it out there"? As far as I can see, you've been using it for the former. As you said with the post earlier on placing Kantrip in your fos pile even though he had more content in the few posts he had. And again with your FoS on Ryu. You're saying here that "so far" that's all he's pushed, but would you not say that goes completely against the entire distinction you made between him in OS in that he is simply putting it out there for individual analyzing and not to make cases???

Still feeling him out.

I see Xastrn's recent attack on soup as a bit opportunistic. Soup has clearly said he had a change of heart regarding pairing up, and yet Xastrn is citing his change in behaviour as a "contradiction." The difference between Xastrn and Kary is that Kary was pointing out a legitimate contradiction from soup before, and their resulting argument was very TvT in nature. Xastrn, however, is twisting soup's intentions (soup merely changed his mind, yet Xastrn is calling it a contradiction), and has malicious intent.

I have about had it with Xastrn's slot, would not mind seeing them dead.

For **** sakes, his townread on Sokr was because Sokr was prodding inactives.

How much of a hard-on for activity do you have, man?

Null town, strangely I like you this game. Especially how your approaching xastrn.

I think before I said i liked you too. This is a very strange situation for me.

Spoiler

could it be ? Love at long last.
Rake stared into Kantrip's eye's, longing to find the answer, hidden deep in kantrip's soul
[/collapse}

Spoiler

Yes, this is Ryker we're talking about. He dayvigged EE once as soon as the game started. And has led lynches on me multiple times simply for the sake of it. I wouldn't have been surprised if he shot me in his first post. In fact I was half-expecting it once I realized that BRB was his slot.
I do this as well, but your placing of Sokr and Kantrip is just completely contradictory, especially since that whole post was focused on people's number of posts. Even if you got a town read on Sokr (or good vibes or w/e) why did you not mention him in your inactive list? Afterwards you made the correction for forgetting pawn but not Sokr. Your whole post just seems like bull to me.
lolwut where are you getting this from? I feel this opposite.

Not sure what to make of you calling Pawn Sokr.

I feel that Xastern's #272 has a different tone than the way he has been addressing other people, even those he has also showed concerns with (ruy and soup). He's been speaking in a sort of unbiased tone (best way I can describe it) as if he is trying to pull for more information. But his post toward pawn was strangely authoritative and aggressive. This to me indicates an instinctive distance behavior.

I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.

Xastrn's reads, last I checked, were something like this:

Xastrn - because it's himself
Sokr - because he liked his first post so much Sokr overcame the inactive pile. Reasoning being that Sokr was questioning inactives
FML - for being active and asking questions
Kary - for being active and asking questions

Me - for inactivity
BRB Not posting - for adhering to their name
Raziek - for... I dunno, I think he just doesn't have a read on him yet? Only one who has been posting who he hasn't stated his opinion of

pawn - for inactivity, buddying, lurking
dabuz - for inactivity
Zen - for... withholding dissent or something? When it came to Xastrn's plan he didn't like that Zen apparently didn't give a hard stance (even though he totally did)

Red Ryu - for having a lot of fluff in his posts and little content
soup - for changing his mind from liking the pairing system to disliking it

His townreads really are that shallow, and his scumreads are super reachy. I've disliked his reasoning for every stance he's presented (not necessarily the stance itself), and I've hated how he's been focusing on inactivity and very arbitrary stuff without ever going into intentions, etc. It's all very surface level. Then there's his game analysis, which was generally disagreed on by everybody. That he suggested a plan I have no problem with. That it was so mechanical I dislike. He developed a reachy scumread on Zen because Zen apparently kept his options open wrt agreeing/disagreeing with the rules. This isn't true from what I read, as I saw Zen clearly saying rules like that never work in BiM and giving an example game to read.

Then there's the inactivity pile debacle where he lumped me and dabuz together as inactives who needed to post content, ignoring BRB Not Posting, pawn, Sokr, and all the people who had posts but were saying a whole bunch of nothing. His excuse that he was purposely biasing it to get reactions doesn't fly with me whatsoever, and his attitude after I called him out where he said stuff like "you may be scumreading me now, but this is actually good! I am getting exactly what I wanted from this and now you're posting!" left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'll briefly mention the fact that all the hydra's posts read as very formal and forced, but I'm not putting much weight on this.

Lastly, there's the difference between his interaction with soup and Kary's interaction with soup. When Kary and soup had their argument at the bottom of the first page, Kary called soup out for contradicting himself. In this case, soup did contradict himself and the mistake was real. I feel like it was just a mistake from him in which he tried to explain things in multiple ways and it didn't really work out, and that that interaction was TvT. More recently, Xastrn and soup have been arguing. Xastrn is calling soup out on another contradiction. This time, soup is saying he doesn't like how people are jumping to pair up, whereas before he was advocating the idea. Xastrn is calling this a contradiction, while soup is arguing he merely changed his mind. Reading over the thread, you'll see that soup did change his mind, meaning this is not a contradiction at all, as soup showed his change in ideology that brought on his new opinion! This callout from Xastrn is, therefore, completely unwarranted. I see it having malicious intent as he's moved soup to his biggest scumpick and is trying to show him in a negative light on a very big reach.

All this adds together to make Xastrn look mighty dirty, if you ask me.

I played with the hydra before and the one thing I remember is them being abysmally bad at playing scum and getting themselves lynched D1. Forget what game this way but I want to say Majora's Mask? This could be playing into why I'm jumping up and down so much at every scummy thing I see, because I'm not willing to dismiss it because it seems "too obviously bad."

That's an interesting perspective but I feel like the mechanical stuff is exclusive to this being a game with different rules to regular mafia. The ridiculous pushes are still here, for sure.

yes:

derp derp derp

Ok, I really did not like xastrn's recent posts. I'm not gonna quote because that's a pain on a phone.

I really disliked how he kept pointing out how what he's doing makes sense as both scum and town. That came across as scummy to me.

Kary said earlier that Xastrn looks scummy because he doesn't care about appearances. He just wants to find scum. Since then it has sounded like Xastrn was playing up sounding sounding scummy because he has an excuse now. Either that or I never noticed how scummy he sounds.

Then Xastrn says something about being fine in front of a pair and not having survival in mind, or else they'd be hiding. To me that sounded like they've been doing that to appear townie and nobody's mentioned it, so they felt obligated to throw it out there. Make sure we know they are doing some townie things.

Finally, Xastrn mentioned that he uses his data to manipulate others. Doesn't this go against one of his earliest posts where he claims OS does it but not him? And another contradiction where he admits he'd possibly shoot from the hip when he spent so much time clarifying how summy that is.

I was just making sure it was OK to post our conversation thus far:

Spoiler

What changed in the 5 minutes between posts for this?

That's whack. Please don't ever shoot from the hip again.

Should look into xast tomorrow imo

Look at xast if soup town* sorry thought i had written that part

If anything your shot looks much weirder. Weapons, unless something is majorly against what I assume, are NEVER worth shooting for like that. You get more by letting the guy you DON'T know is town waste shots.

In fact, that was against the philosophy that YOU posted on the first page.

Grand total of people who had a problem with Xastrn or something he said at some point during D1:

1. FML
2. Potassium
3. Zen
4. Sokr
5. dabuz
6. pawn
7. Ryker
8. Red Ruy
9. soup
10. Kary
11. Raziek

Grand total of people who found Xastrn scummy at some point during D1:

1. FML
2. Potassium
3. Zen
4. Sokr
5. dabuz
6. pawn
7. Ryker
8. Red Ruy

Grand total of people who found Xastrn scummy at the end of D1:

1. FML (pending soup townflip)
2. Potassium
3. Sokr
4. dabuz?
5. pawn?
6. Ryker (pending soup townflip?)
7. Red Ruy (pending soup townflip?)

 

[Kantrip]

Weird, the end of that post auto-collapsed because there were so many quotes.

And that was just D1.

Here's the end for visibility:

Grand total of people who had a problem with Xastrn or something he said at some point during D1:

1. FML
2. Potassium
3. Zen
4. Sokr
5. dabuz
6. pawn
7. Ryker
8. Red Ruy
9. soup
10. Kary
11. Raziek

Grand total of people who found Xastrn scummy at some point during D1:

1. FML
2. Potassium
3. Zen
4. Sokr
5. dabuz
6. pawn
7. Ryker
8. Red Ruy

Grand total of people who found Xastrn scummy at the end of D1:

1. FML (pending soup townflip)
2. Potassium
3. Sokr
4. dabuz?
5. pawn?
6. Ryker (pending soup townflip?)
7. Red Ruy (pending soup townflip?)

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Yes. I am. I am not convinced that xast is scum and I am starting to see his side of things. Mine is a weapon for town. We have a limited number of those so I am not going to waste my one shot on someone unless I am almost certain that they are scum. Yes I realize refusing to do this can be seen as going against towns wishes and therefore scummy. I don't care. If xast is town then I can guarentee that there will be scum trying to push us to kill him. I'm not going to submit to possible scum.

FML, what do you think about Xastrn's claim that his and zen's abilities would be OP in scum's hands.

what changed and point out why it changed your mind

 

[FullMetalLynch]

110% sure xastrn is scum.

There is no reason for him to look at huge Wifom bombs, why did player x die how did they die. Which is pointless to talk about we don't know **** about that and we are better off trying to read into the players here than trying to find that kind of crap.

They pulled this D1 as well, they aren't trying to find scum, they are trying to make themselves look better by making crap up, "Sokr is a strong town read cause we think so though it is an entire 180 from what he said about post counts. NO ONE QUICK SHOOT, JK GONNA SHOOT SOUP ON THE STUFF WE TOLD PEOPLE NOT TO DO" ''

He's doing the **** I try and get away with as scum and I know scum benefits from his play more than town would. I'm not buying his posts, nor do I care to question him anymore because I just want them dead.

I'm not gonna gun you down to get to him, your my strongest town read, but I sure and hell do not want you protecting a slot that damn well deserves to eat a bullet for what they did and posted.

Dammit ryu you hit like, every one of my concerns on my re-read .Like when i did it with xast town on mind, i saw the sokr thing as just him being stubborn. Ya know ? like he didn't want to admit he didn't have a solidified reason on it so he stuck to it. But that made no sense to me and the read made no sense at the time, even if true, what about sokr's one post did he like ? Why not quote it and follow up with sokr. He was entirely too uncomfortable too fast. But i think that and that seems too assuming. And the 180 on post counts got me too, but moreso because of the interaction between Kantrip and Xast at the time. I almost felt like xast hand waved kantrip, and then when he got called on it, stuck to it to possibly appease kantrip ? Like : look we share townreads. Plus what got me was that xast described kantrip as fluffish and empty, but in fact sokr's posts where much more to that effect then kantrip's by a quite a ways. I fact it almost felt like he passed off reading sokr and then chainsawed his own poistion if you get me. It's hard for me to see how he explained it because I didn't like it at the time and I still am uncomfortable with how he approached reading sokr.

I know the soup shot is a huge point of contention, and I know his reason on doing it objectively reeks. But i just keep getting there and it's like: His excuse is so bad, I have a hard time thinking of him as scum trying to pull it.

The thing is now, there has been so much invested in xast, I'm starting to give in, I don't like admitting it but I can't let one little vibe of wifom distratc me from the larger picture of the game.