Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm done reading this, FML separate.

 

[Xastrn]

Who is this addressed to?

If I remember correctly, I was speaking generally at the entire group at that point.

I really don't like how it doesn't even cross your mind that your counterpart could be scum. You claim to think everything over so carefully and I believe that. You've had enough posts detailing how what you've done could be seen as scummy. In my opinion, this level of thought around how other's read your posts is characteristic of scum. As town, you wouldn't have anything to hide and would feel less obligated to do so. But back to the counter part thing. Why are you so against the possibility of this?

We have discussed in length whether our counterpart could be scum. I addressed it above, in case you missed it.
If our counterpart could be scum, then we have been sent on a wild goose chase. We were clearly intended to search for our even counterpart.

Furthermore, our ability and our even counterpart's ability, to create a no-lynch if we attempt an attack on the wrong numbered day, would be completely broken in the hands of scum. Can you imagine if they got to skip every other Day? They would get 2 night kills in a row every time, essentially. It's just completely unbelievable that scum would be given that power. It's OP in their hands, and since a no-lynch is generally bad for town, it's not broken in our hands.

So yes, I already addressed that it crossed our minds. We discussed it at length.

You said that you think our level of thought regarding just addressing the wifom before it's stated by someone else is so such a level of thought that it's characteristic of scum? Are you suggesting that only scum can be that smart? Or that since we're that smart, we must be scum every game? I'm confused as to which, or some other variant.

Saying "as town you wouldn't have anything to hide" is ignorance. I'm guessing you've played mafia before, correct? I don't mean to condescend. I genuinely don't know. I've been out of D-Games for 2 years I think.

Town docs have something to hide. They don't want scum to know they are docs.
Town cops have something to hide. They don't want scum to know they are cops.
Town also make plays that rely on some information being hidden, whether it's a minor PR, or simply a discovery or read that they want to keep hidden while they ask questions to allow someone to incriminate themselves. That was our intention in our original case on soup, for example.

I think you might be confused about something. I'm not referencing wifom frequently as a means to hide anything. Quite the contrary, I'm putting things out in the open. I'm acknowledging that my posts, reads, cases, opinions, claims, etc could ALL be misread. That's how wifom works. I am not hiding behind it. I'm keeping it from distracting anyone by just saying it so there's no back and forth.

 

[Xivii]

Limited Access until Monday night. I'll likely have the time to read and post in the car though.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Limited Access until Monday night. I'll likely have the time to read and post in the car though.

reads? briefly?

 

[Xastrn]

I'm done reading this, FML separate.

FML CAN'T separate. Try to keep up, bubs. You are being way too d*ckish about this whole thing. Just chill. Stop and think. Read Xatres' next post. Perhaps even consider taking your blinders off and just think for an hour or two about what he is proposing. You might find yourself loosening up a bit and lowering your gun for a while so there can be actual discussion.

 

[Xastrn]

Sorry, forgot color. Last two posts were me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm done reading this, FML separate.

I feel you. I'm done reading too. But w/e.

Do you have any thoughts on who else might be scum?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Why the hell would xast be so emphatic and impassioned towards the game as scum ryu,i think youve been playing long enough to have played with them before

 

[Xastrn]

When you two say you are done reading, do you literally mean you won't read anything anymore, or only anything we say, or just that you are frustrated?

Please be more specific. We need to know.

 

[Xastrn]

Second Point: Town Needs to be Discussing the Flips

Questions town should be considering:

1) Why did two players die in the night rather than one?

2) Why did THESE two players, both townies, die?

3) Who benefits?

Answering Question #1: Obviously the three biggest choices are: a) One of these two players was a bomb, b) We have a Vig, or c) We have an indy. Any of these are possible. I'm less inclined to go with option A, simply because the flips (mercenary/archer) don't really lend themselves to either player being a bomb. With that in mind, I'm inclined to think we either have a Vigilante to Indy in our midst.

Answering Question #2 (Vigilante Scenario): If town has a Vig, then he either killed Ryker or Raz. The question is... why? If the Vig killed Raz, I'd probably say he killed him because he tried to quickkill Soup at the end of the Day. Yes, I got the final kill, but only to prevent Raz from having it. The Vig may have thought Raz was scum trying to get the Falchion and killed him for it.

Conversely, if the Vig killed Ryker, he simply may have been looking to kill a largely inactive player (who is apparently also known as a wild card).

Answering Question #2 (Indy Scenario): If town has an Indy, then I'd say he likely killed Ryker. This is mostly for the same reasons as a Vig kill. If necessary, the Indy could fake-claim Vigilante and have a perfectly justified kill against an inactive, while still getting rid of a swingy player.

Answering Question #3: The real question is this: Who benefits from these two players deaths?

For Ryker, the benefits could go either way. Scum benefit by wiping a wild card player from the board, one whom no one had any firm reads on. This kill is basically untracable. Vig/Indy benefit for the reasons listed above.

For Raz, the benefits get more interesting, particularly when considering the suspicion placed on Dastrn and I:

RAZ LIVES: If Raz had lived, town would have been left with two players to investigate at the beginning of the Day rather than one. Raz tried to kill first, we stole the kill from him. Debate would have ensued. Rereads would have occurred. Rational discussion would have commensed, and both of us may have been cleared. Most certainly, any attempts to quickkill would have been looked down upon. We absolutely did not benefit from Raz's death.

RAZ DIES: Raz dying screwed us big time. With Raz dead, town has been left with only one firm suspect in Soup's death, and that's us. My knee-jerk scumread on Raz at the end of the day was completely invalidated, and we basically have no allies. Town rages, someone tries to make a quickkill. This all actually happened, and we are basically only alive because people failed to understand the rules proplerly.

The attempts to quick-kill us were terrible for town. Nothing above was considered, no other player has felt any heat. If Red Ryu's kill had succeeded, the day would be over, another townie would be dead, and we'd possibly enter tomorrow with only 6 players remaining.

If we are scum, Raz would be alive. We would have known that his death would leave us a prime suspect the next day. And our master plan certainly wouldn't have been to hide under FML's skirts for a Day waiting to die toMorrow.

Maybe my analysis is incomplete. Maybe I'm missing potential scenarios. It's possible, even likely.

What I'm saying is... Let's actually TALK about this. Offer input, give evidence for reads, build scenarios. Let's actually have town work together in scum hunting. Only by engaging in rational discussion are we going to catch slips and faulty logic and figure who the best play is for toDay.

Ultimately, the only people who benefit from town angrily waving their guns around is scum.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

FML CAN'T separate. Try to keep up, bubs. You are being way too d*ckish about this whole thing. Just chill. Stop and think. Read Xatres' next post. Perhaps even consider taking your blinders off and just think for an hour or two about what he is proposing. You might find yourself loosening up a bit and lowering your gun for a while so there can be actual discussion.

what did I tell you about picking fights?

Stop it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The hell, who started the join?

 

[Xastrn]

what did I tell you about picking fights?

Stop it.

You are being dense. Read my post again. You two are saying you refuse to read any more...I'm responding by saying "open your eyes, slow down, and take your time." and you're saying I'M the one picking a fight?

You REALLY need to lose the tunneling thing and relax. Why are you two so afraid of considering what else might be going on? Just read Xatres' post just now and be intellectually honest with yourselves and spend some time considering things.

Also, let's not forget who kept calling who a DUNCE in all caps all day. If you want to talk about picking fights, yeeeesh, you're pointing 1 finger at me with the other 4 curled back pointing at yourself.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Second Point: Town Needs to be Discussing the Flips

Questions town should be considering:

1) Why did two players die in the night rather than one?

2) Why did THESE two players, both townies, die?

3) Who benefits?

Answering Question #1: Obviously the three biggest choices are: a) One of these two players was a bomb, b) We have a Vig, or c) We have an indy. Any of these are possible. I'm less inclined to go with option A, simply because the flips (mercenary/archer) don't really lend themselves to either player being a bomb. With that in mind, I'm inclined to think we either have a Vigilante to Indy in our midst.

Answering Question #2 (Vigilante Scenario): If town has a Vig, then he either killed Ryker or Raz. The question is... why? If the Vig killed Raz, I'd probably say he killed him because he tried to quickkill Soup at the end of the Day. Yes, I got the final kill, but only to prevent Raz from having it. The Vig may have thought Raz was scum trying to get the Falchion and killed him for it.

Conversely, if the Vig killed Ryker, he simply may have been looking to kill a largely inactive player (who is apparently also known as a wild card).

Answering Question #2 (Indy Scenario): If town has an Indy, then I'd say he likely killed Ryker. This is mostly for the same reasons as a Vig kill. If necessary, the Indy could fake-claim Vigilante and have a perfectly justified kill against an inactive, while still getting rid of a swingy player.

Answering Question #3: The real question is this: Who benefits from these two players deaths?

For Ryker, the benefits could go either way. Scum benefit by wiping a wild card player from the board, one whom no one had any firm reads on. This kill is basically untracable. Vig/Indy benefit for the reasons listed above.

For Raz, the benefits get more interesting, particularly when considering the suspicion placed on Dastrn and I:

RAZ LIVES: If Raz had lived, town would have been left with two players to investigate at the beginning of the Day rather than one. Raz tried to kill first, we stole the kill from him. Debate would have ensued. Rereads would have occurred. Rational discussion would have commensed, and both of us may have been cleared. Most certainly, any attempts to quickkill would have been looked down upon. We absolutely did not benefit from Raz's death.

RAZ DIES: Raz dying screwed us big time. With Raz dead, town has been left with only one firm suspect in Soup's death, and that's us. My knee-jerk scumread on Raz at the end of the day was completely invalidated, and we basically have no allies. Town rages, someone tries to make a quickkill. This all actually happened, and we are basically only alive because people failed to understand the rules proplerly.

The attempts to quick-kill us were terrible for town. Nothing above was considered, no other player has felt any heat. If Red Ryu's kill had succeeded, the day would be over, another townie would be dead, and we'd possibly enter tomorrow with only 6 players remaining.

If we are scum, Raz would be alive. We would have known that his death would leave us a prime suspect the next day. And our master plan certainly wouldn't have been to hide under FML's skirts for a Day waiting to die toMorrow.

Maybe my analysis is incomplete. Maybe I'm missing potential scenarios. It's possible, even likely.

What I'm saying is... Let's actually TALK about this. Offer input, give evidence for reads, build scenarios. Let's actually have town work together in scum hunting. Only by engaging in rational discussion are we going to catch slips and faulty logic and figure who the best play is for toDay.

Ultimately, the only people who benefit from town angrily waving their guns around is scum.

all of this analysis is wrong

the answer is that scum shot both of them. a simple explanation for why would be that they wanted ryker dead.

speculating on night kills with so little information available is a complete waste of time.

I'm glad we covered that topic let's move on.

 

[Xivii]

reads? briefly?

Pair with me.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

@Mod-Can a player who seperated make other day actions,ie if i had given the seperate command could i kill?Also can a person who has seperated but did not give the command make other actions during a phase?

 

[Xastrn]

That's all I've got for tonight. I considered writing a post about how if town had agreed to the rules we suggest Day 1, then all this confusion wouldn't be a problem. I think that should be a given at this point.

Also, Dastrn and I have been discussing the fact that no weapons broke in the night. This likely means scum have two-shot weapons of some kind. Maybe even a two-man scumteam who can both kill at night, making 4 total kills unless they snag new weapons, though this may be too swingy. Either way, let's consider the possibilities. If we kill the wrong player toMorrow, it will be important to have some idea of where town stands in a potential MyLo or LyLo situation.

 

[Xastrn]

EBWOP: *If we kill the wrong player toDay

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You are being dense. Read my post again. You two are saying you refuse to read any more...I'm responding by saying "open your eyes, slow down, and take your time." and you're saying I'M the one picking a fight?

You REALLY need to lose the tunneling thing and relax. Why are you two so afraid of considering what else might be going on? Just read Xatres' post just now and be intellectually honest with yourselves and spend some time considering things.

Also, let's not forget who kept calling who a DUNCE in all caps all day. If you want to talk about picking fights, yeeeesh, you're pointing 1 finger at me with the other 4 curled back pointing at yourself.

what does this post achieve other than trying to argue with me. ok thanks bye.

 

[Dabuz]

Xast is wrong about saying he cannot be separated from FML toDay.

Separate Mechanic: Once a Day, an Active Unit paired with a Support Unit can choose to Separate from the player with which they are paired. This can be done during the same phase in which the Pair Up that joined these two players occurred. Neither player can Pair Up as a Support Unit with a new player until the following Day phase. However, otherplayers can Pair Up with these players as Support Units during this phase. A player who elects to Separate will immediately go into Wait mode following the separation.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Ebwop-we may be able to seperate today. Ryu may not be able to shoot in such a case. If able to seperate and town wishes to shoot xastrn we shall

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Pair with me.

I am not going to pair with you just so you post a readslist. Come on now.

You must have some reads and it's not going to cost you the world to share some of them.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

That's all I've got for tonight. I considered writing a post about how if town had agreed to the rules we suggest Day 1, then all this confusion wouldn't be a problem. I think that should be a given at this point.

Also, Dastrn and I have been discussing the fact that no weapons broke in the night. This likely means scum have two-shot weapons of some kind. Maybe even a two-man scumteam who can both kill at night, making 4 total kills unless they snag new weapons, though this may be too swingy. Either way, let's consider the possibilities. If we kill the wrong player toMorrow, it will be important to have some idea of where town stands in a potential MyLo or LyLo situation.

Thankfully neither of these topics are remotely relevant either. I'm glad you brought them up so we can agree to move on.

Reads, please.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Orbo the ever heartless half.

Still reading stuff.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also, if we decide to seperate, and it will be a joint decision by me and orbo if we do, i think sokr / kary should do the deed.

Any opposed ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Someone has to be the asshole of the hydra and you're the Canadian half

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Ebwop-this is the will of both hydra heads

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also, if we decide to seperate, and it will be a joint decision by me and orbo if we do, i think sokr / kary should do the deed.

Any opposed ?

No just end him.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

**** off ryu you can wait on this.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

We are gonna mine xast for what he knows before we make any kind of decision.

 

[Xastrn]

Kary, we need to be real for a second. And I want everyone to read this.
You are not playing this game. You are simply hand-waving everything.
You are not even thinking. You are just dismissing everything.

Does anyone else think this is poor behavior?

Kary, is there anything that can be done that will get you to stop behaving this way?
Stating that speculating on scum kills is a waste of time is silly. WE ALL KNOW THIS.
Saying that we could be in mylo or lylo D3 if we screw up IS relevant. WE ALL KNOW THIS.
Discussing why no weapons broke at night IS relevant. WE ALL KNOW THIS.

Why on earth are you hand-waving all of this?

I can't get my mind around it if you are town. I'm having such a hard time with this because I have reason to believe you are town. But I have this cognitive dissonance because I have some evidence in one direction and I have your behavior in the other direction.

The only way I can imagine explaining your hand waving is that you are terrified of letting town talk about anything but how to kill me as fast as possible. Your only motivation for this is if you are scum/indy. I don't want to assume it's just you and RR as a scum team because pairing up and tunneling so hard like this seems dangerous since I expect you or Ryu will die nextDay if you are behaving this way.

To everyone else: why are you not challenging this behavior? If you believe 100% that I'm scum, why would you allow him to behave this way?
If you believe I'm 100% town, why would you allow him to behave this way?
If you are completely unsure, or leaning one way or the other, why would you allow him to behave this way?

There are other townies in this game besides us. Why are none of you concerned about this behavior?

Please, speak up. Raise your hand if you think he is right that NONE of this is relevant and it's a complete waste of time to think about why scum chose the targets they did. Seriously. EVERYONE should be responding to this.

I'm trying to be as rational as I can but I feel like I'm trying to convince a crazy person that they are definitely not a library.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I'm still reading ryu, i'm trying to hold to the town vibe that i talked to about balls of steel, it's just hard to exemplify what i think is more telling about xast when a lot of it is actually #feels

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Orbo's kinda locked though, we've been discussing it on and off as i go and he says i'm probably just wasting my time but i gotta do my due diligence on xast here. I've ignored feels and not fought strong enough on em before and its lost games

 

[Circus]

@Mod-Can a player who seperated make other day actions,ie if i had given the seperate command could i kill?Also can a person who has seperated but did not give the command make other actions during a phase?

As a general rule, players can only take one action each Day. If a player has already used a command for the Day, then they are now in Wait mode, and can perform no further actions until the next Day phase. Players that have not yet issued a command for the Day have the ability to do so until the Day ends, but certain restrictions may be placed on them depending on their status, which is outlined in the descriptions of the individual commands and unit types in the OP.

Let me know if I need to make this clearer, but consider rereading the "Game Specific Rules and Information" section of the OP first. The answers are there.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary,

If you seriously think you can get anywhere from discussing something that no-one actually knows anything about, then you're crazy.

It is speculation, pure and simple, and it doesn't help you find scum.

I don't even want you dead. I just want you to stop dragging this game down.

I'll post exactly the same thing I did a page ago, which is that I don't want anything from you that isn't reads, or you questioning the play of people you find scummy.

 

[Xastrn]

I'm questioning your play, Kary. I find it scummy. That's something you've asked me to do. I'm doing it. I'm explaining why. I'm asking other people for their opinions.

If I stopped posting for 12 hours, do you think you're capable (along with RR) to actually talk about other things during that 12 hours? I would honestly agree to not post for 12 hours straight if you would pretend I don't exist for 12 hours and actually play the game and analyze other things than just us.

This is my last post of the night. I might read a little bit, but let's all be honest: there are 4 of us posting, mostly 3, and it's been WAY too many posts in general, with way too little content coming from my two attackers. People are going to wake up tomorrow, read all of this, and then nothing will get done while they analyze all this.

All I ask is that people open their eyes and slow down a little. If FML decides to separate, they'll do it in their own timing. That's up to them, and they're clearly strong enough to tell you to F off and wait if they want.

Potassium, dabuz, ranmaru, zen, and sokr. You've been out of this late night dogpile. I envy you. I should have posted less, but it's not in my nature to have a point to make and just sigh and move on without making it. (you should see me in political debates...I made my stepmom flip out and swear because me and my dad were discussing gay marriage or something, and I've never heard her swear in 20 years since she married my dad.)

I'm very interested in what you 5 have to say about Xatres' posts regarding the purpose of the night kills. Why were they chosen? who gets richer when they die? who sinks lower?

I'm also very interested in what you have to say about Kary's behavior, and my recent post about it. Perhaps answer the questions I asked in a post.

 

[ranmaru]

Please, speak up. Raise your hand if you think he is right that NONE of this is relevant and it's a complete waste of time to think about why scum chose the targets they did. Seriously. EVERYONE should be responding to this.

I assumed a vig killed one of them, or ... yeah, vig. Unless scum double killed somehow.

Why? Cuz Ryker. Raz? Prolly vig.

There you go. Thinking about this doesn't help us find scum though. You know why? Because we don't have any evidence to tie night kills to living players now, unless there was a PR that tracked someone to the kill or something. Rest would be wifom "This guy did it because of [meta]!!" that runs us in circles because [wifom].

Although thinking about things like bombs are good. Obviously we want to wait for a claim before shooting some bomb lol. I know that pressure being a bomb and being stated as a shot target -> MFW:

I, like Kary, would rather focus on in-game events/evidence. You know, like things that happened yesterday, and today.

Now, I'm wondering. Why do you keep posting when you still have to catch up post wise? I think it clutters the thread when there are more important matters (your reads). It's hard for people to really not talk about you when you haven't caught up yet when it comes to reads and your direction. When I think 'direction' I think who you think is scum today, not why scum decided to kill who they may have killed. I'm also wondering how you are progressing with re-reading (Dabuz especially, since you are doing that first). I'm being patient, but I am still curious at how you are doing this.

I'm trying to be as rational as I can but I feel like I'm trying to convince a crazy person that they are definitely not a library.

Lol.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Orbo here.
Rake and I are going to.spend a while going back and forth with Xast. We will not be separating until we either come to a scum read or feel that the towns aim for xastrns head cannot be avoided.
With that being said,kantrip is the only person who has brought forth anything even resembling a case towards Xast being scum. Ryu,you are calling for his head left and right with little said on why. You need to pony up here and show us your thoughts,or else I can only think of you as a mad man shooting blanks.
Kary,you have self admitted to not wanting Xast dead. Stop ******** at him then and let him focus on making reads instead of saving his own hide.Who do you think should be shot? Why is analyzing the setup intricacies and using them to help find scum or clear town a bad thing?
Zen who is the shot today? You think xast town so I need a name from you buddy.
At people in general, stop harassing Xast for the moment. What do we come away from this day phase if we spend the entire time ******** over Xast? Where is the direction for tomorrow? What do we do if i refuse to separate and you need another lynch? If you don't have an answer for any of these,shut the ****ing hell up and go play mafia. I'm not gonna have this day come down to whose name got shouted the loudest by a bunch of ****tards with no reasoning or discussion about anyone else whatsoever. Truth be told if what kantrip says is true and they **** up easily as scum then I don't see them posting nearly as much and in the tone that they are.You cant touch them unless Rake and I decide so and that means you either need to get a case together and convince us or start talking about other slots. There's more than one mafiat in this game I'm sure so even if Xast ends up scum you can go and find out who his potential mates are and flush them out.

 

[Xastrn]

Looks like I'm wrong about us not being able to be killed toDay. I thought I had asked Circus about this during N0, but apparently I didn't word my question specifically enough.

That being said, rushing a kill on us this early in the Day can do nothing to benefit town. There has been close to zero conversation toDay about anything other than wanting our slot to die. That's not an environment that creates evidence for town to use in later Days. If we are scum, you are simply allowing our scummate(s) to bus us, no questions asked. If we are town, then you are depriving town of ANY useful information for later Days, and likely sealing the deal on a scum victory.

several players have been absent for the past few pages. Many have failed to give a significant amount of information for town to use. Even allowing a few more days of discussion would be of huge benefit to town.

What benefit is there to shooting us today rather than Tuesday or Wednesday?

Everyone slow down. Take a breath. And start thinking things through. FML can separate from us at any time, then you can get your blood bath. Until then, maybe you should use the time you have to gather more info.

For real not posting again tonight. I'm only posting this now because Dastrn kept talking to me on IM while I was getting ready for bed.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Actually,people think. Why target ryker? He was behind raz safely. What is the motivation to shoot ata protected guy?