Fire and Lightning Mafia - Game Over!!!

[#HBC | Ryker]

Point is, how does you asking me for scum reads differ from how I asked you?

You are saying that I am doing something I am not. I have not done that. You're misrepresenting me.

Xonar, vote Gorf for me.

 

[KevinM]

I have work 4-8 but I didn't know Brosuke is Xonar, what an awesome blast from the past xD.

Still keeping my vote on you, I didn't like the entire way you've played today, call it stubborn but after the call-out you came into the day.. told me you wouldn't make that gambit because you're not bad like me (an adhoc argument not acknowledging the fact that you asked for a role PM in an announced semi-open set-up), told us the only people we can have firm reads from information on are uncaps (basic knowledge), and your response to me pointing out the unlikelihood of Rykers initial read of mafia hitting each other you make a silly quote.

You're begging people for stances but you haven't taken a firm one other then that you think there are a number of weak players in the game and that you believe Gorf and myself are a scum team due to Ryker's train of thought but don't agree with his assessment that me and you would be early game distancing because in Ryker's opinion my thoughts on your early game play was scummy.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You are saying that I am doing something I am not. I have not done that. You're misrepresenting me.

Xonar, vote Gorf for me.

As promised.

Vote: Gorf

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm just not keen to Mafia gaining all my knowledge : )

Additionally, me suspecting you/Gorf is anything but a Ryker parrot. That said, me and Ryker usually come to the same conclusions for different reasons when we're of the same alignment.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Also I never said that you and Gorf are a scum team.

Or that I disagreed with Ryker because you thought I was scummy.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I have work 4-8 but I didn't know Brosuke is Xonar, what an awesome blast from the past xD.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13767201&postcount=134

I don't buy it.

You're trying to drag me down with you.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

@ryker

OK, I guess an explanation is due from my side. Our first two posts were written by me all the others are from Sworddancer.

My post was not meant to be a threat at all. It was actually meant to be the opposite of it but back then I had not realized that the two mafia parties can incap each other. It's not mentioned in the rules and it doesn't make sense in context with the original set-ups [L4S only had one mafia faction and mafia can't kill each other in F&E] so I wrote under the assumption that Kuz and us are both confirmed town - imagine my surprise when I saw people were seriously considering voting me! Since there were no clear rules about inacpping and uncapping in the OP I thought he'd just use the standard F&E game plan with L4S mechanics.

@mod

Can you please clear this situation up?

If I'm right that'd mean that Kuz and I are both clear but I don't have a scumread on Kuz anyway. I'm more concerned with Gorf and July. July's reasoning for not liking me is really reaching and stupid - because we have made no "unnecessary connections". What the hell is this supposed to mean? Should we start making unnecessary aka useless connections to players now when there's no point in doing so because it's - derp - UNNECESSARY? This tells me that she doesn't even want us to respond to it because if we actually had these useless connections she could've called us out on them just us much. There's no pro-town implication in putting somebody in a position that's lose-lose a priori. She could've joined this wagon regardless on how we had decided to play this. Plus she's piggybacking KevMo on his case on Xonar which has merit but needs way more substance to be actually "important" as you claim.

I'm not impressed.
Unvote Vote July

Sorry my tablets acting up. opinion on the bolded, quoted from- woah- a town read of yours? its essentially the point im tryna drive.

@hipster answer to my question would be splendid.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Actually cool with RykerScum atm.

Will elaborate after July answers. Bedtime now.

Gnight.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

EBWOP:
I agree with Ryker being scum.

I will elaborate after July has answered, they might be related. Bedtime now.

Gnight midnight wording.

 

[Hipster Samurai]

K. Why do I think you're sidelining? I don't see much action on your part at all, all I see really is commentary.

Wait, what? I'm legitimately confused here. Is this an answer to my question in the form of an accusation? Where did this accusation even come from? When you made this post, we were hours into the game, and we were facing off against Kuz. I have no idea how you'll call that sidelining at all.

I do agree that intentions were legit. If it's the one I think you're talking about, it's because you seem to be agreeing with the action. I think the whole asking around for those stances at the time thing was well overdone... Doesn't mean I think it's scummy.

Well, if I like the action, as I did, it kind of goes without saying that I reed good intentions into it. I'm not just forming my read off of generic town tells if that's what you're getting at.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

K.

unvote uncap

 

[Hipster Samurai]

Case. And. Point. What I get from this, is that you find KevM scummy cuz he's not doing what you want. That doesn't make someone scummy, it makes somebody unresponsive to the way you play. Me, Kuz, and KevM all have that in common at this point, and you probz have every intention to assure that you get rid of people who don't wanna listen to you because they're just bumps on the road. Cello played like that. And Cello was wrong. A lot.

However, don'tcha think that it's truthfully not fair for KevinM to get to do what he wants (sit back and avoid comment on current affairs)? If not, then why?

Ryker flailing. Ryker case bad. Gorf town. Samurai scum.

Now I'm literally about to devour some doritos at uncontrollable speeds.

You still haven't backed any of your stuff up yet. You also haven't responded to any of our stuff. If you want to live toDay over us, then I suggest you get on that. After all, why wait?

Btw that last line wouldn't happen to be impliying the munchies, is it Kuzi?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

By god, that's what you get when you don't proof your post (for that one person who's going to try and peg me, I was doing that post around 10 minutes before I got to school)

For one:

That one "Ryker" part had nothing to do with that post.

The KevinM and joey quotes were quotes that I had forgotten to reply to.

KevinM: No thoughts on my early attack on hipster, which I launched before I started "caring about game mechanics?"

Joey's posts was pointless , and mostly obvious, fluffy, and useless.

Brosuke also seems to be suffering with Xisscumdon'task syndrome: his 180 and 184 show no explanation, just thesises. He also seems to be an everyone pleaser, as he goes from doing what ryker says for him to be doing to thinking ryker is scum.

Xonar, don't be vauge. What did you want to run by me.

 

[Hipster Samurai]

K.

unvote uncap

I'm still confused. @_@

Brosuke, elborate on how "KevinM is dragging you down with him," wasn't he the guy who attacked you first.

I'm letting Gheb pressure July.

 

[July]

Before I make a clear point on Gorf I will see if my other head even agrees with me. In your case, I frankly don't care whether he agrees with me because I'm more certain. And even if "pushing a lynch" was quite a huge exaggeration on my part the fundamental problem still remains the same. Does my explanation on our behavior [in terms of defending and hunting scum] actually affect your read on us at all? You seem to shrug off the fact that I responded to most important part of your initial accusation and just move on to the next best thing you happen to dislike. That kind of proves my point that you're not actually looking to find out who the scum is. You're set on me being scum and will use any reason you can find to support this.

What is this fundamental problem again?

I understand your reason for defending yourself, I don't understand why the fact that you couldn't talk to your other head yet means that you couldn't start scumhunting, or why you didn't feel the need to question people or look into their motives until you got on my case. And the way you handled that so far has just been twisting my words and blowing **** out of proportion when it's TRUE that you didn't make connections or scumhunt and its true that all you've done is defend yourself. You know how to get people off your back and make them change their mind and want to keep you around? Not by constantly defending yourself, but by doing some scumhunting, which shouldn't be that hard for you if you are town. I already told you that if you were defending yourself AND scumhunting I'd have no problem and your response was that you couldn't because of how young the game was and not having contact with your other head and defending yourself; but if you had time to defend yourself you had time to ask some questions and attempt to get some reads, and you don't need your other heads approval to scumhunt.

How does this prove your point again? I'm pretty sure it proves my point that all you've done is defend yourself and attack people when they suspect you because they see that you are not doing anything to help town. I'm trying to look at your intentions, and all I see is self-preservation mode; I guess you could say that you are "scumhunting" on me but I personally find your attacks on me quite shallow.

Hipster, have you talked with your other head? Can provide your read on Gord?

July & Ryker:
The closest thing you both can get to hard stances on Kuzi and Hippie now. I'll buy this action from you so if you need anything, go ahead and ask.

Kuzi leaning town; that's as hard of a stance on Kuz as I can give right now. Hippie scum, if I to lynch anyone right now (or let someone get incapped or whatever its called) it would definitely be him.

 

[July]

Yay, Swords your part of the hydra is here; any scum reads right now? (Other than me)

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

@Hip

Id be moreso against it if he didnt have content outside of the fact, and iirc, he mentioned that he didnt find any reason to comment, therefore not avoiding it, but verbalizing his lack of stance.

 

[KevinM]

However, don'tcha think that it's truthfully not fair for KevinM to get to do what he wants (sit back and avoid comment on current affairs)? If not, then why?



What's this case going to get you, Ryker? You just went on about KevinM running into a dead end point. Your case on Gord right now is based off of meta, and could just be dismissed as Gord changing his mind about this particular issue. How can a case which relies on meta go anywhere? How is it different from what KevinM did?

Neither half of the hydra buys this.



You still haven't backed any of your stuff up yet. You also haven't responded to any of our stuff. If you want to live toDay over us, then I suggest you get on that. After all, why wait?

Btw that last line wouldn't happen to be impliying the munchies, is it Kuzi?

I don't believe I was avoiding comment on an issue as much as not seeing an issue with how Ryker was playing... he was posting to erractically to gain a solid read on anyone for me.

There's a problem with his playstyle inherent in the fact that I didn't see him needling for information as much as just trying to needle the players and create an illusion of being a wave of activity without creating a firm foothold for ME to be able to read a players stance.

FYI, when reading through and seeing someone just go if you had a bullet and had the chance to shoot ___ ____ or _____ it to me doesn't set off the scum hunt alarm as much as the I'm making sure my activity in the thread is sufficient, especially because it's such a subjective question and is usually already weighted in some way shape or form by the person asking it.

Do I think it could lead to RykerScum? Possibly, but for me it's hard to read because as much as he's been posting I haven't seen him have to many solid reads that I can find myself agreeing with, this could be because we have two mafia factions who could be playing two separate styles of play which is throwing me off but it also is because knowing their are two factions and 4 players Ryker posting about every player without going indepth on to many of his reads makes it hard for me to see where he's coming from.

This was longer then I had hoped but I guess people can see where I'm having difficulty getting through Ryker's playstyle and seeing it as more deficit then beneficial to town atm.

 

[Dooms]

Ryker, I like Kuz more in the Kuz v Ryker because you're basically saying his logic is really flawed and you're getting on him for that, but I liked the logic and agreed with it.

Besides the logic side of it, though, Kuz really isn't giving any evidence behind his stances, like when he said "for reasons already stated" even though the only reasoning he has is "Hipster is scum because he is"... o_O. Yeah... I think I was wrong on choosing the Kuz side of this XD.

 

[KevinM]

Ryker, I like Kuz more in the Kuz v Ryker because you're basically saying his logic is really flawed and you're getting on him for that, but I liked the logic and agreed with it.

Besides the logic side of it, though, Kuz really isn't giving any evidence behind his stances, like when he said "for reasons already stated" even though the only reasoning he has is "Hipster is scum because he is"... o_O. Yeah... I think I was wrong on choosing the Kuz side of this XD.

So are you going to waste all of D1 with wishy washy stances or are you going to man up and give some scum reads this game?

 

[Dooms]

So are you going to waste all of D1 with wishy washy stances or are you going to man up and give some scum reads this game?

Too early in the game for me to tell you that. I'll tell you after D1 is over.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Brosuke also seems to be suffering with Xisscumdon'task syndrome: his 180 and 184 show no explanation, just thesises. He also seems to be an everyone pleaser, as he goes from doing what ryker says for him to be doing to thinking ryker is scum.

Xonar, don't be vauge. What did you want to run by me.

I'm not being vague. Ryker totally picked up on it.

Also, I'm far from an everyone pleaser. I promised Ryker I would buy his reads with an action thus I voted Gorf. Besides that, I don't like Gorf, so I guess I'm okay with it.

That said...

EBWOP:
I agree with Ryker being scum.

Brosuke, elborate on how "KevinM is dragging you down with him," wasn't he the guy who attacked you first.

Bad fake distancing to give the impression that he's trying to distance while he's actually just pretending to distance?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

unvote uncap

 

[Hipster Samurai]

What is this fundamental problem again?

It's that your accusations are flat out untrue. OK, you've not been directly pushing a lynch on us but you've been strongly supporting that move anyway ... and just because I've exaggerated that part doesn't mean that your arguments suddenly became true or more valid. It's still absurd to think that you can tell after 12 hours of playing whether somebody truly intends to hunt scum or that opting to defend oneself for that moment is a legitimate tell.

I understand your reason for defending yourself, I don't understand why the fact that you couldn't talk to your other head yet means that you couldn't start scumhunting, or why you didn't feel the need to question people or look into their motives until you got on my case.

So because my hydrabuddy didn't feel confident enough in his reads after not even 12 hours of playing, at a time where only few people gave their input and where we've been under massive pressure from the very first moment onward you immediately conclude that we have no intention to hunt scum? That's basically the scenario that you're pushing right now when you say that we're "only acting for self-preservation". That's quite a laughable accusation considering that others have made equal / less attempts to hunt scum without being **** on left and right *coughJoeycough*

If you were to be objective and consistent with how you apply your logic then you'd realize that you can blame others for similar things but choose to go against us instread regardless. That's why I think you're selectively hunting scum:

How does this prove your point again? I'm pretty sure it proves my point that all you've done is defend yourself and attack people when they suspect you because they see that you are not doing anything to help town.

No, it proves that you're changing the argument on why I'm scum in a heartbeat if needed and as soon as you realize argument A is debunked you bust out argument B and once argument B is debunked you move back to argument A. Just take a look at the current situation: No matter what we're responding to you and in what manner, in the end you will come up with some new [or old] argument that justifies your stance on us. By now this has nothing to do with you trying to find scum anymore but with you trying to find a way to make us look like scum. That just reeks of pseudo-hunting and opportunism.

Hipster, have you talked with your other head? Can provide your read on Gord?

I talked to Sword about it and we both agreed that Gorf's stances and points on us were too stupid to be true. He concluded dumbtown, I concluded potential scum. Didn't wanna go public with it right away though because the argument would've been almost the same as my argument against you and that would've been too overkill OMGUS to many people [even though neither read is based on OMGUS sentiments in actuality].

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Kuzi leaning town; that's as hard of a stance on Kuz as I can give right now.

Tell me more.

 

[July]

It's that your accusations are flat out untrue. OK, you've not been directly pushing a lynch on us but you've been strongly supporting that move anyway ... and just because I've exaggerated that part doesn't mean that your arguments suddenly became true or more valid. It's still absurd to think that you can tell after 12 hours of playing whether somebody truly intends to hunt scum or that opting to defend oneself for that moment is a legitimate tell.



So because my hydrabuddy didn't feel confident enough in his reads after not even 12 hours of playing, at a time where only few people gave their input and where we've been under massive pressure from the very first moment onward you immediately conclude that we have no intention to hunt scum? That's basically the scenario that you're pushing right now when you say that we're "only acting for self-preservation". That's quite a laughable accusation considering that others have made equal / less attempts to hunt scum without being **** on left and right *coughJoeycough*

If you were to be objective and consistent with how you apply your logic then you'd realize that you can blame others for similar things but choose to go against us instread regardless. That's why I think you're selectively hunting scum:



No, it proves that you're changing the argument on why I'm scum in a heartbeat if needed and as soon as you realize argument A is debunked you bust out argument B and once argument B is debunked you move back to argument A. Just take a look at the current situation: No matter what we're responding to you and in what manner, in the end you will come up with some new [or old] argument that justifies your stance on us. By now this has nothing to do with you trying to find scum anymore but with you trying to find a way to make us look like scum. That just reeks of pseudo-hunting and opportunism.



I talked to Sword about it and we both agreed that Gorf's stances and points on us were too stupid to be true. He concluded dumbtown, I concluded potential scum. Didn't wanna go public with it right away though because the argument would've been almost the same as my argument against you and that would've been too overkill OMGUS to many people [even though neither read is based on OMGUS sentiments in actuality].

Except that's not what happened. I said I didn't like you because you haven't been scumhunting, that's not a be all end all conclusion; it's what you've done so far that I noticed and don't like, if you start scumhunting and I'll shut up. I NEVER framed it as defending yourself is a legitimate tell. I understand that you were getting hit early on and were defending yourself, but you haven't stepped out of that phase. Right now you and I are just going back and forth because you don't like that I said I didn't like your actions so far. I never said you didn't have the intent to scum hunt when I said I didn't like you, I stated a fact that you weren't doing something I want to see you doing if you are town. My decision on who I vote to uncap comes down to who looks like they are helping town more, and scumhunting is part of that.

Second paragraph: I'll admit that saying you don't have the intent to scumhunt was harsh at this point, but I want to see you get out of defense mode. You defending yourself is ALL I have to go off for you so far, and it felt like when you attacked me for saying I haven't liked your play you were basically saying I'm not allowed not to like you at this point and shutting me down.

There are other people who aren't scumhunting, and that's why I tried to get opinions from some of those people. including Joey, when I came into the game.

Third Paragraph: I just want you to scumhunt and get out of defense mode, because your defense mode has been way up since the beginning and that's not helping town. This is my last response to you in paragraph form, I want to get us out of this deadlock and see where you go from here on your interactions with other players and where you go with scumhunting. I don't want this to end up like HP with the tunneling and such I'm going to lay off you and reconsider my read for a bit.

When you say that some of Gord's stances seemed too stupid to be true, are you talking about in his interactions with Ryker?

@Brosuke: I liked Kuz in his interactions with Ryker, and I got the feeling that both of them were feeling each other out and trying to get some kind of read on the other, which they both seemed to do with some degree of success. I also liked that Kuz was willing to engage so vehemently against Ryker even though he's in a precarious position with being incapped, he didn't try to appease Ryker to get him on his good side, which as scum would probably be a good tactic for trying to stay alive considering how influential Ryker is as a player. However, I need more from Kuz, I want more reads and I want to see more scumhunting in general from him.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Don't base my alignment off of conflict with Ryker. I don't consider him a big enough threat to go out of my way to appease him. This type of posting is exactly what Samurai is trying to do, though.

Will not be able to give this game attention until tomorrow afternoon at the earliest. Finals are next week and I can't focus on mafia right now.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Actually, I have 30 minutes until class. I'll get something done.

But like... stances on WHAT? His accusations are dry, and forcing people to take a stance cause forced reads... Ask Brosuke about his opinion on those types of questions.

Gorf answering my questions for me.

 

[th3kuzinator]

What's wrong with forcing people to provide a read? Forcing stances (possibly) gives people something to work on, and it may create connections down the road.

What are your feelings then, Gord? Do you think that Ryker is just faking it (as that is what you seem to be implying)?

What the hell are you talking about? Forced stances may give town something to work on, but any content gained from doing so is complete trash and doesn't reflect alignment or weave the game together. If you force a player to give artificial content, regardless of alignment he won't be able to respond in a way that truly reflects his alignment which leads to false positives and misinformation.

Better just to flat out say that there isn't enough content to draw a decisive conclusion then to force reasoning on a scumpick in an attempt to look pro-town.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Kinda want to vote Brosuke just for the whole can we get a sample mafia role PM..

I've run that gambit like 100 times in open set-ups against weaker players to great success, and after that he went kinda quiet.

Sorta seems like he wanted some easy way to appear townish without having to voice an opinion on anything in the game thus far.

... (rereading)

yeah eff that after a reread I'm definitely gonna start a choo choo over here on the Brosuke line to scum town.

Vote Brosuke

Why are you basing a scum read on a player based on your own meta? That's a fallacy and you should know better. With the other arguments taking place before this post I'm surprised you only felt the need to focus on Xonar. What Xonar did is null and should be treated as such.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Gorf & Kuz are one mafia team. I'll refer to them as Fire for now. You're transparent, get at me.

Game over. Problem solved. You got us.

 

[th3kuzinator]

No, the difference is, it's not math. There is no right or wrong. It's all different values and I have to pick what's right and wrong.


Okay, so I'm misrepresenting townies right now? You're implying that I'm not applying my judgement to the matter at hand, so please point that out.

According to you, I am either town looking for scum or I am scum looking to push a mislynch. Make that judgement. What am I trying to do?



You're mad I'm on your scummate.

Uncap Hip

Vote Gorf

So tell me, Ryker, why do you find Gorf scummy? Is it because he doesn't agree with how you're going about things or is it because you think he's my scummate trying to defend me. Either way, this vote is gross. Its clear that Gorf is implying he thinks you're incorrect town while trying to jerk a connection based scum read when you don't even know my alignment is the definition of flimsy. If you actually want to make a convincing argument, come back with something based on Gorf's actual play, which hasn't been scummy.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Yeah, you kinda do or you kinda get lynched for it. I know your opinion on how you play mafia and I really don't give a damn about it because it doesn't work well in this climate.

Ego war is on the side and for my enjoyment. Would you shoot Brosuke off of your null tell before aiming at Kuz, Ghebdancer, or myself?

I'm quick to dismiss it because it's completely useless to me. It doesn't further anything. It allows you to sit on a null tell and not contribute. No thanks. I really don't care to watch you idle your way through Day 1 with dead end paths.

Fact: Xonar could slip up and give you something off your bull**** vote.
Fact: I don't really give a **** and would prefer to see you actually doing things that stand a chance of mattering.

You don't have power Ryker. Making empty threats that you'll lynch anyone who doesn't provide content to your standards only makes you look foolish.

I do agree with your sentiments wrt Kevin getting his hands dirty with other subjects besides Xonar, though.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Really have to go to class. I'll be back as soon as possible.

 

[KevinM]

Ryker, who are you leaning towards on an uncap if you're thinking both of the uncaps could be scum? I really just want to get an idea of how you're looking at the game right now.

 

[KevinM]

Why are you basing a scum read on a player based on your own meta? That's a fallacy and you should know better. With the other arguments taking place before this post I'm surprised you only felt the need to focus on Xonar. What Xonar did is null and should be treated as such.

Not only have I used that gambit, it's a fairly common gambit to use.

I felt the need to focus on Xonar to make sure the game wasn't growing stagnant on Ryker's playstyle. I've since commented on other things but if you're going to assume that I will let things that irk me slide under the game without bringing them up because there are things that have happened since then you have a weird way of looking at the game.

Also considering how early it was in the game and how insubstantial the reads Ryker had given us at that point I'd much rather go with something that struck out to me instead of just commenting like a few of the others did with "Ryker is being egotistical and posting erratically, however I am not going to go into detail on why that is bad for town or if I agree/disagree with it"

 

[Rajam]

Or they should just prove that they are worth the survival

Man, I thought for sure I was gonna be incapped. This is entertaining.

What's the purpose of posting this?

---

Read up to post #40. Not liking Gorf; several posts with no real content, even less any attempt of scumhunting. Just trying to give a fake impression of "collaboration" imo

 

[Raziek]

HI GUYS. I FORGOT TO SUSCRIBE TO THE THREAD.

Gonna be catching up tonight/tomorrow, apologies for offensively long absence.

Or you could all clear me because scum would care, that would be swell.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Kuz talk about July asap.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Specific question to get you going;
How would July treat her mafiabuddy?