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Fire and Lightning Mafia - Game Over!!!

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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"Let's get down to business!"

It is day 5.2
Vote Count (3/4)

2. Brosuke [0]
3. Raziek [2] Ryker, Brosuke,
4. Ryker [1] Raziek,
13. Kantrip [0]

Not Voting: Kantrip,

It takes 3 of 4 to lynch, deadline is set January 23rd, 11:59PM CST.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Kinda hard to do that when I have no idea what constitutes tailoring to Swiss. All I have is the word of the man himself, and this is just a side tangent because I'm getting frustrated of being called scum for things you yourself are guilty of.

:phone:
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
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Also, you have no actual proof that I was tailoring to Swiss, yet you brought it up. What constitutes tailoring to Brosuke? What constitutes tailoring to Kantrip? I mean, you have obviously shown the facilities to figure out when you think it's going on, but you can't figure out when I was tailoring to Swiss?

Huh. Isn't it cool how things work out selectively when you need them to.

I still maintain that I never tailored my posts to Swiss, but it's really cute how you can cherry pick your scum tells.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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If you're only going to read one more post this game, Xonar, read this one. I don't have anything else left, so this will be the final summary and my last attempt to convince you that Ryker is scum.

Leaving out meta. WIFOM will be necessary to retain otherwise we basically have to throw out the connection case.

The Offense

- Ryker's jump off of J and on to me was extremely scummy both in timing, quality of the post (felt fake), and NOTABLY includes a Rajam/Raz reference by Ryker, one of the first he drops. As a Town move, it is not optimal play to aim for me over Rajam, which I believe is because Ryker of course did not want to sacrifice his partner if he had me instead.

- Day 2's incap choice of Gorf makes more sense to have been performed by Ryker than myself. Ryker had Gorf as a scumread, I was barely paying attention to him. Among the number of strong players I could have chosen (and am more afraid of), Gorf's real only draw was his activity. However, his activity matters just as much to me as it does to Ryker, so this leaves Ryker with MORE motivation than I to choose to incap him.

- Night 3/Day 4's death of Swiss, again makes more sense as a Ryker choice than a Raz choice. Swiss commonly hydras with Ryker and had already expressed significant suspicion on both Ryker and Rajam. The main point Ryker has raised against Swiss's suspicions is that he argues that Swiss was neither caught up, nor certain in his read. I disagree, as I believe Swiss's Posts are more confident than Ryker would have us believe. The exception being the line in which he acknowledges Ryker MAY be tailoring his posts to him. Giving no elaboration, I feel it's not unreasonable to assume Swiss was still fairly confident in his read.

- Ryker claims that he allowed the J lynch to happen because he just had to survive the lynch circle between he, J and I. This is not a Town mentality. If he was so certain I was scum with Rajam, he should not have been simply letting you (Xonar) push through the lynch on J. That is a scum SURVIVAL mentality. He outright STATES:
Ryker] Xonar wanted to lynch J and I felt that he was more likely to be able to survive a LyLo with me than you. [/quote] This sentiment is EXACTLY what he has held against me during the brief (and foolish) no-lynch discussion that I entertained. He accuses me of trying to build the situation for best surviving LyLo when he did exactly the same? - Finally said:
The Defense[/SIZE]

We now examine Ryker's "case"/anti-case against me.

He begins the day attacking me primarily as a result of PoE and my misguided no-lynch notions.

He refutes my claims of J, Gorf and Swiss having suspected him. At this point I have dropped J and Gorf from the equation, but I will not drop Swiss. He was essentially unbiased as a result of his slot being cleared and a replacement. Unlike J and Gorf, he was not tainted by "FFFFFF you killed me" emotions, and I believe offers the most valuable opinion of the dead players.

He then directly attacks me for AtE on a post that wasn't intended to even be part of the argument. He claims it to be against my Town meta, which in turn is calling me scum for it.

He dismisses the Night Kills as pure WIFOM. I don't believe this is appropriate given the context of the game, particularly in the case of the Gorf kill. Swiss you could make a WIFOM case against, but I do not believe you can say the same for Gorf.

In this post he outright admits that he has nothing redeeming him in the eyes of Town, but claims there is nothing condemning him either. I, obviously, disagree.

His "case" on me consists almost entirely of refuting the weaker parts of my previous case as WIFOM, and dismissing nearly EVERYTHING as WIFOM, arguing that I'm scum simply because it "lines up with my play."

He accuses ME of trying to force him to build a "reaching" case on him (which at the time, it was) yet he himself forced me to do the same. He still lacks any actual case on me even now, and also accuses me in that same paragraph as walling as a desperate means to beat him.

In the only thing actually resembling a "case" he accuses me of:


In my list of issues with Raz, I forgot to bring up the specific points that he:

1.) Tried to push a No Lynch.
2.) Tried to remove motive from discerning alignment.
In this respect, I will admit to pushing a no lynch initially. What has yet to be shown is why exactly this makes me scummy NOW given that I have abandoned the idea and admitted it was a mistake. There has been no reason provided to suggest scum motivation rather than misguided Town. He has accused me of trying to do so to build the best LyLo possible, but ALREADY ADMITTED OPENLY to letting J die so he could do exactly that himself!

In regards to his second point, I argued that he was taking that out of context, given that I had indeed provided a possible motive, however it cannot be proven adequately in either direction. This effectively removes point 2 from his case, as I was not actually trying to do what he accused me of.

He argues that I have been pushing for mislynches. However, he admits in that very post that I made no effort to be involved in the decision making progress. While mostly true, as a result of inactivity, how can I be pushing mislynches if I'm not involved? It's not as if Rajam was pushing any mislynches for me, and he's yet to provide any reasoning for why my flip-flopping between him and J was a result of being scum rather than an indecisive Townie. While I did move my votes, I never made any actual effort to PUSH the lynch in either direction, which would be what would suggest a mislynch attempt.

He outright dismisses the Rajam connection case as purely WIFOM, which it is certainly NOT.

He then goes on to DIRECTLY MISREPRESENT MY ARGUMENT in his immediately following post:
1.) Rajam has been on Ryker's back the entire game.
2.) Rajam has had Raz on his scum list throughout most of the game.

He calls one damning and the other a town tell in his favor. Wtfamireading.jpg
In his first strawman of my "point" he misrepresents my accusation of distancing as the idea that Rajam was just "on his back", which directly detracts from the actual substance of the argument.

And as I already addressed, he pulled #2 out of the air completely and it was not actually part of my argument at ALL!

Finally, he has challenged me to find posts of him tailoring to Swiss, which I have already openly admitted I cannot do because I don't know what it entails.

TL;DR FOR DEFENSE

- He's misrepresented my points on multiple occasions
- He's directly dismissed the bulk of it as WIFOM despite still holding valuable information.
- The remaining points he has against ME are also things that apply to HIM. He outright admits to being non-contributive in his 1807, and accuses me trying to make him make a reaching case against me, when he forced me to do the same at the start of the day.
- Ultimately, his "case" is essentially defensively dismissing everything as WIFOM, and misrepresenting my case as a means of "attacking" it.

That's all I've got. If this won't convince you, Brosuke, nothing I can do will.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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I'm reading through this post and this is exactly what I was waiting for, Raziek. I won't comment right now, because I'm 1. not finished and 2. it's 3:30am. I will say that reading your offense 'til now has all been really reasonable and logical. Let me keep reading and comment tomorrow.

I'm V/LA on Sunday because of a tourney, btw.
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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If you're only going to read one more post this game, Xonar, read this one. I don't have anything else left, so this will be the final summary and my last attempt to convince you that Ryker is scum.
AtEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Leaving out meta. WIFOM will be necessary to retain otherwise we basically have to throw out the connection case.
The connection case was bad. : /

- Ryker's jump off of J and on to me was extremely scummy both in timing, quality of the post (felt fake), and NOTABLY includes a Rajam/Raz reference by Ryker, one of the first he drops. As a Town move, it is not optimal play to aim for me over Rajam, which I believe is because Ryker of course did not want to sacrifice his partner if he had me instead.
This is a reach.

Explain WHY it's scummy in both timing and quality of post.

Of course it includes a Rajam/Raz as it's the scum team and the most reasonable conclusion in the event that J flipped scum. You're trying to add it as a scum tell when it's not.

For the love of god, aiming at you isn't a scum tell. Go see my response to Kantrip.

- Day 2's incap choice of Gorf makes more sense to have been performed by Ryker than myself. Ryker had Gorf as a scumread, I was barely paying attention to him. Among the number of strong players I could have chosen (and am more afraid of), Gorf's real only draw was his activity. However, his activity matters just as much to me as it does to Ryker, so this leaves Ryker with MORE motivation than I to choose to incap him.
It is not, however, outside of the realm of possibility that you would make that move. Gorf was loud and Gorf was moving things forward. It doesn't matter whether or not I would have more motivation to incap him when you have sufficient motive.

- Night 3/Day 4's death of Swiss, again makes more sense as a Ryker choice than a Raz choice. Swiss commonly hydras with Ryker and had already expressed significant suspicion on both Ryker and Rajam. The main point Ryker has raised against Swiss's suspicions is that he argues that Swiss was neither caught up, nor certain in his read. I disagree, as I believe Swiss's Posts are more confident than Ryker would have us believe. The exception being the line in which he acknowledges Ryker MAY be tailoring his posts to him. Giving no elaboration, I feel it's not unreasonable to assume Swiss was still fairly confident in his read.
At this point, you're playing for end game and the motive to frame me is sufficient. This goes along with the way you flip off of me and onto J for insufficient reasoning showing that you felt more confident in dealing with me than with J (with good reason).

Swiss exudes confidence regardless of the strength of his read, especially when it concerns a player who can ignore lighter pressure. The last stance he took is telling that his read was turning. Nothing is damning about Swiss's flip.

- Ryker claims that he allowed the J lynch to happen because he just had to survive the lynch circle between he, J and I. This is not a Town mentality. If he was so certain I was scum with Rajam, he should not have been simply letting you (Xonar) push through the lynch on J. That is a scum SURVIVAL mentality. He outright STATES:

This sentiment is EXACTLY what he has held against me during the brief (and foolish) no-lynch discussion that I entertained. He accuses me of trying to build the situation for best surviving LyLo when he did exactly the same?
............

You, J, and everyone else in the game agreed with me. Alignment doesn't come into it at all seeing as it's cold hard fact. Mathematically, regardless of alignment, whichever pillar of that triangle survived would emerge with a win for their faction. I tailor my play around that and it's no secret. WHY is it scummy?

As for your parallel between that and your No Lynch fiasco, the difference is that the only person who could craft a LyLo in that situation is scum. It doesn't line up and you're intentionally twisting the situation here.

- Finally, we have Rajam. Rajam spent the ENTIRETY of the game (probably 90% of his posts) applying half-***** pressure to Ryker which I argue is ****ty distancing. He ignored me until the Comparison Cop claimed, at which point both Ryker AND Rajam began to suggest the Rajam/Raz (suggested by Ryker) and Ryker/Raz (suggested by Rajam) that would allow the other to take me down in LyLo in the event they died.

I argue that there are no significant connections between Rajam and I, and that it would not make sense for me to have bussed Rajam at the time I did during the Ryker vs. J conflict. Such a decision would be rather hasty and look disorganized, especially given that the day still looked to be ending in either Ryker or J's lynch.
WIFOM.

Completely and utterly. The bit about setting him up to be taken down in LyLo is also trash garbage. Explain how that helps me attack you in LyLo?

Having no significant connection is a significant connection.

It would CERTAINLY make sense to pull the bus out when you did because it looked unlikely to effect the conclusion of the day. Actually, it had very little impact as is because the game changer was the way J and I treated it.

Ultimately this culminates in the fact that the method by which the proposed Rajam/Raz pairing has apparently dealt with Ryker's slot simply DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. It's well known at this point that I have a great deal of respect for Ryker, to the point of it impeding my play against him. (As pointed out by Gorf) Given the degree of how much I was threatened by him, why would we ever take such an indirect route to dealing with him? Why would I have Rajam focus entirely on him? That does not make sense as a strong gameplan from the Rajam/Raz pairing and makes a significantly greater deal of sense as distancing by the Rajam/Ryker pairing.
WIFOM.

To simply use this paragraph is an answer to your question, but to be more reasonable, because there were infinitely more dangerous threats than me out there for most of the game until I was cemented as a suspect. I was inactive for the majority of the game. As far as N0 is concerned, you incapped Kuz, which I can understand even if I don't appreciate it.

Not only do we have these points, but Kantrip, whom is confirmed Town (since he could have quickhammered me at any time and won) developed the SAME case independently. The fact that both a townie and another player came to the same conclusions lends strength to the idea that the case is NOT in fact reaching, and has merit.
The same BAD case.

Your connection case was awful and still holds no water. Same as his.


I'll get to more later.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Ryker make a response that isn't anti-case. Try to formulate it in the way Raziek did.

That was a great read, Raz. I'll get to everything once Ryker has replied and when I'm wide awake.
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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He refutes my claims of J, Gorf and Swiss having suspected him. At this point I have dropped J and Gorf from the equation, but I will not drop Swiss. He was essentially unbiased as a result of his slot being cleared and a replacement. Unlike J and Gorf, he was not tainted by "FFFFFF you killed me" emotions, and I believe offers the most valuable opinion of the dead players.
Been over this.

He then directly attacks me for AtE on a post that wasn't intended to even be part of the argument. He claims it to be against my Town meta, which in turn is calling me scum for it.
You simply restated what I've said and have posed no defense.

He dismisses the Night Kills as pure WIFOM. I don't believe this is appropriate given the context of the game, particularly in the case of the Gorf kill. Swiss you could make a WIFOM case against, but I do not believe you can say the same for Gorf.
More restating.

In this post he outright admits that he has nothing redeeming him in the eyes of Town, but claims there is nothing condemning him either. I, obviously, disagree.
I stand by this. I've played fairly badly.

His "case" on me consists almost entirely of refuting the weaker parts of my previous case as WIFOM, and dismissing nearly EVERYTHING as WIFOM, arguing that I'm scum simply because it "lines up with my play."
It's since been elaborated on.

He accuses ME of trying to force him to build a "reaching" case on him (which at the time, it was) yet he himself forced me to do the same. He still lacks any actual case on me even now, and also accuses me in that same paragraph as walling as a desperate means to beat him.
I never forced you to make a reach. You've done that on your own in an attempt to bolster your case as you yourself have admitted.

In the only thing actually resembling a "case" he accuses me of:




In this respect, I will admit to pushing a no lynch initially. What has yet to be shown is why exactly this makes me scummy NOW given that I have abandoned the idea and admitted it was a mistake. There has been no reason provided to suggest scum motivation rather than misguided Town. He has accused me of trying to do so to build the best LyLo possible, but ALREADY ADMITTED OPENLY to letting J die so he could do exactly that himself!
If I simply admit to each point you submit, regardless of the validity and right them off as mistakes, can I be town forever?

I've already explained the difference in this parallel and it remains scummy that he's twisted it.

In regards to his second point, I argued that he was taking that out of context, given that I had indeed provided a possible motive, however it cannot be proven adequately in either direction. This effectively removes point 2 from his case, as I was not actually trying to do what he accused me of.
No. It doesn't effectively remove it. It remains open for interpretation. I've supplied the reasoning that leads to my interpretation and it's on the remaining two players to make heads or tails of it.

He argues that I have been pushing for mislynches. However, he admits in that very post that I made no effort to be involved in the decision making progress. While mostly true, as a result of inactivity, how can I be pushing mislynches if I'm not involved? It's not as if Rajam was pushing any mislynches for me, and he's yet to provide any reasoning for why my flip-flopping between him and J was a result of being scum rather than an indecisive Townie. While I did move my votes, I never made any actual effort to PUSH the lynch in either direction, which would be what would suggest a mislynch attempt.
Twist.

Change the wording to "contributing to mislynches" and revisit it.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Will get to the rest seeing as gears has started.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Kantrip, did you reread in order to figure out if I was scum, or to attempt to prove that I am scum? Your connection case is full of WIFOM that is based on a player who's meta you're unfamiliar with.

Raz is tailoring his posts to you and you need to watch how it influences you.
Actually I don't find it meta at all. The way he brought you up and said "oh by the way remember I think Ryker is scum" EVERY POST HE MADE is a scummy thing to do. It doesn't serve a TOWN purpose.

His scum read on Raziek went more under the radar and he hardly brought attention to it. The scum intent for THAT as distancing isn't as strong. Why bother to distance if you're not going to commit? Similarly, there is no town intent with how he talked about you, so it's most logical that is was distancing all game long.
 

Kantrip

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He. Did. It. The. Entire. Game.

I'd also kindly point out that Eyjer is guilty of essentially everything he has accused me of, including threatening post-game choking.

:phone:
Excuse me, but you've both been doing this.

At this point, I'll proceed to let you two tear into each other again. I've presented my side of the argument as I promised Brosuke, as getting both sides is better than ignoring yours.

What you say is true Brosuke, and Rajam easily could have been on Ryker all game for reasons you say, but that doesn't explain why Rajam was more full of hot air explaining his scumread than acting on it. If not scummates, shouldn't he be fine with the lynch ACTUALLY going through? There were subtle hints of aversion mixed in when it came close to a Ryker lynch, and Rajam always seemed to find a person that was JUST A BIT scummier.

I really don't know.
 

Kantrip

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The point is to inform Kantrip, obviously.

Raz, since you seem so stuck on it, can you please show me the posts where I was tailoring to Swiss?
This makes sense, as you brought it to my attention. Thanks. It makes sense.

Raziek, don't use "Kantrip and I" anymore.

Assume I want you dead. Fight harder.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Kantrip, do you agree with me that you want something from Ryker along the lines of what Raziek just made?
Yes, it is unfair that he is getting away without providing it. Attacking cases is fine in its place, but we need to see that Ryker's isn't just as susceptible and full of WIFOM and meta.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Also a lot of his anger seems fake to me, and I can't put my finger on why.

Maybe it's because I can't see anyone feasibly using coding and typing out "NO" so many times when they are actually angry. His anger towards me looks put on.
 

Kantrip

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No, I don't think he will. He hasn't done so all game even with another player who we ended up lynching WITHOUT A CASE AGAINST. I am not letting this happen again.

I am also not going to stand for threats. Ryker, if I am wrong I want you to show me WHAT is RIGHT.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Yeah I can't even motivate myself to read Ryker's attacking of Raziek's case. This is bull**** and if Ryker is not scum he needs to learn how to play endgame better, because this isn't it.
 

Kantrip

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I'm-

Welp. Good job Brosuke. Even your "waiting for Kantrip to post" at the start of the Day was so townie because I knew you knew why I did what I did. And killing Dark Horse was-

But seriously like.

I'm speechless.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
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Game Over - Lightning wins

It is day 5.3
Vote Count (3/4)

2. Brosuke [0]
3. Raziek [1] Ryker,
4. Ryker [3] Raziek, Kantrip, Brosuke,
13. Kantrip [0]

Not Voting:

It takes 3 of 4 to lynch, deadline is set January 23rd, 11:59PM CST.

Ryker Flips Vanilla Townie
Raziek and Kantrip Vanilla Townies are end gamed.

Brosuke and Rajam, Lightning Mafia win!
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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I know. I loved this game.

I roll scum at least 70% of the time, so I hated this game. You saw this D1.
D2 I forgot I was scum, which is what I usually do when I am scum. I often forget my role and play as town. This continued to happen through out the game.

The rest is history.
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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I seriously thought you were cleared until the last phase when it was pointed out.

There is a large part of this game I haven't read, lol.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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:urg:

Well what do you suggest Ryker? I'm not going to quit this game, but I don't want to be as bad as I am.

You said you wanted to talk about TvS interactions or something and that I should ask you about it. Also, any other stuff.
 
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