Finally happened...

[SwastikaPyle]

'He's slow' is a fantastic reason, WTF. Speed is almost everything in this game. There's a reason MK is at the top and Ganon is at the bottom.

I also mean no disrespect to Rykoshet with these posts, I think you are a good player and I admire you continuing to 'fight for your friends' instead of picking up an easier character.

 

[-Mars-]

'He's slow' is a fantastic reason, WTF. Speed is almost everything in this game. There's a reason MK is at the top and Ganon is at the bottom.

Ya and Snake, DK, DDD, and Falco are fast?

edit: by your reasoning Sonic and Captain Falcon would be among the best characters in the game if "speed is almost everything"

I don't think you play Brawl much....Brawl is the most defensive-oriented game the smash series has ever seen. With the lack of combos and AT's, power and defense is more valuable than it has ever been. Sure speed does help but Zelda isn't exactly running circles around Ike either.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Ya and Snake, DK, DDD, and Falco are fast?

edit: by your reasoning Sonic and Captain Falcon would be among the best characters in the game if "speed is almost everything"

I don't think you play Brawl much....Brawl is the most defensive-oriented game the smash series has ever seen. With the lack of combos and AT's, power and defense is more valuable than it has ever been. Sure speed does help but Zelda isn't exactly running circles around Ike either.

You are forcefully being ignorant because you want to win the argument, but I'll explain the points that you already know anyyways.

When I say 'speed' I'm not talking about their movement, I'm talking about the amount of lag on attacks. I thought you knew that, my bad. Priority also matters, which those above characters have plenty of.

She can punish better, she has a projectile, she has less startup and ending lag on almost every movie. Ike has a fast jab and a fast bair, but that isn't enough. Zelda has the advantage. A smart Zelda should be able to beat Ike.

 

[Rykoshet]

For one, ike is only as slow as the moves you choose to utilize. His jab is 3 frames on connection and has the most range of a jab with that speed, his "slowness" is somewhat made up for by the range and relative lacking punishability of his neutral air, spaced autocanceled back airs and retreating fairs. Zelda's approaches are frankly pathetic, especially on a character that I've had DK players say "**** that guy is hard to get in on". As for naks's zelda play, his main issues are trying to recreate things instead of adapting them to his playstyle, using flashy moves when it's not paragmatic, and lacking in execution. To say he uses rolls to space himself is silly, since I've been *****ing at him for using rolls until we both limited it in our gameplay.

As far as priority goes, ike has it in boatloads, there are few moves that flat out beat him out in priority, granted there are plenty that outspeed his harder hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ApO0OGnus&fmt=18

You can't watch that vid and tell me "ike is slow and laggy, just exploit that and punish it", we've long since accepted our character's downfalls and have found out ways around it.

My secondaries are better characters, but my goal was to become one of the better ike players in the country and that still has a long way to go.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Zelda's approaches are pathetic, I agree. That's why she doesn't have to approach, she has a perfectly spammable projectile she can use to force Ike to approach.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOaNZlrhkJ4 This is the fight I was talking about that was mostly a barrage of rolls. He appears to have corrected this in his later fights though.

 

[-Mars-]

You are forcefully being ignorant because you want to win the argument, but I'll explain the points that you already know anyyways.

When I say 'speed' I'm not talking about their movement, I'm talking about the amount of lag on attacks. I thought you knew that, my bad. Priority also matters, which those above characters have plenty of.

She can punish better, she has a projectile, she has less startup and ending lag on almost every movie. Ike has a fast jab and a fast bair, but that isn't enough. Zelda has the advantage. A smart Zelda should be able to beat Ike.

Spacing and Zoning are also big factors in Brawl........Ike does this better than Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's approaches are pathetic, I agree. That's why she doesn't have to approach, she has a perfectly spammable projectile she can use to force Ike to approach.

*zelda listens to Swastika's advice*

*Zelda's face eats ike's fair*

 

[Rykoshet]

Zelda's approaches are pathetic, I agree. That's why she doesn't have to approach, she has a perfectly spammable projectile she can use to force Ike to approach.

lol please, by all means use din's fire to attempt to force me to do anything, see if it isnt a free first stock for me. Stuff like that is why I believe you're trolling. Lastly, I don't namedrop people I fight because frankly it's disrespectful to attempt to grab recognition by enemy association. I'm not a good player because I fight [name here], though I will be the first to say who beat some of my better habits into my head.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

lol please, by all means use din's fire to attempt to force me to do anything, see if it isnt a free first stock for me.

well... it forces you to use your completely safe fair or nair approach to punish zelda in the face... it's a bold strategy.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

So what do you do when Zelda does a Din's Fire? SHAD? Of course you do. When you are too close for Din's, she should wait for you to attack, shield or airdodge approapriately, then do the approapriate smash attach to get you away. Zelda's smashes are nearly magical against a SHAD, because unless the air dodge is timed PERFECTLY, her smash attack will last longer then the air dodge and hit them.

Zelda is good at making people GTFO of her. Just because you dodged Din's doesn't mean she's forced to get hit, as long as she is a good Zelda.

 

[Nakayorz]

So what do you do when Zelda does a Din's Fire? SHAD? Of course you do. When you are too close for Din's, she should wait for you to attack, shield or airdodge approapriately, then do the approapriate smash attach to get you away. Zelda's smashes are nearly magical against a SHAD, because unless the air dodge is timed PERFECTLY, her smash attack will last longer then the air dodge and hit them.

Zelda is good at making people GTFO of her. Just because you dodged Din's doesn't mean she's forced to get hit, as long as she is a good Zelda.

throw out a quick aerial to cancel the din's fire and slam her in the face.

Zelda's front smash is easily escapable especially if you know it's coming you don't even have to smash DI it, and a lot of the cast can smash DI out of her up smash but Ike doesn't have to because you'll be eating his forward air which hurts a lot more and reaches a lot further than the forward air you're consistently eating constantly and complaining about in your videos. And that's a best case scenario cuz if he lands close enough fast enough even your down smash won't stop him from jab cancel combat walking you across the stage which you will need good DI to escape.

If you're able to respond with a smash in time after a din's fire your opponent doesn't have a good grasp on spacing or is slow and deserves to eat the move.

Edit: sometimes I wonder why I bother leaving videos from half a year ago up to show progress when people seem to think it's valid to use them to criticize what a terrible player I am.

 

[Rykoshet]

Yeah uh lol, I can DJ fair it, I can quick draw straight through it at mid-ranges, I can just run at you and spot dodge it, forcing you to end it early to attempt to hit me, if you end it earlier than that to reduce the punishment then I just basically cleared a ton of ground with absolutely no downside whatsoever. Short hop air dodge? No unless I plan on jabbing right after it, if I land outside of jab range (see, fsmash range) I'm gonna block or throw an ftilt, if I land inside you I'm gonna full shield your up smash or nayru's. You honestly underestimate just how punishable din's fire really is, especially for the purposes you're lauding, this is like mid-april thinking dude.

 

[Luthien]

I'm not saying he's a bad player by any means, but he seriously seems like any other generic Zelda. The difference is he appears to use less Din's Fire in favor of teleport canceling (Probably because it looks cooler?). He is skilled, but not special.

Ha.

Also, the idea that Ike has the advantage against Zelda is just plain wrong, in my opinion. Din's Fire alone puts Ike at a disadvantage for most of the fight, especially for anything off the stage. Show me these videos of Rykoshet putting Zeldas to shame.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Yeah, I basically came in to say that Din's has done nothing for me against Ryko, but it seems he's already covered that.

Seriously, where were you when everyone else found out Din's was bad? Din's does very little to threaten Ike off-stage. Ike has good methods of punishing Zelda's approaches, projectile, and gtfo moves. Hence the advantage (to be honest, I'm unsure about the actual match-up, but I'm gonna take Ryko's word for it because his posts have included logic thus far).

 

[LuigiKing]

Are you guys even serious? I have a huge amount of experience against Zelda, and I'll tell you, this one isn't much to brag about. DM is significantly better, then again he mains Zelda... Point being, NL is decent, but he isn't doing anything we haven't seen before guys, you are just hungry for a good Zelda to come along and bring her respect.

Ike is at a disadvantage entirely in this matchup as well. You say Din's isn't much of a threat to Ike off the stage? Are you smoking a joint rolled in downsyndrome? Ike has one of the most predicable recoveries in the game, and Din's fire is perfect at hitting that spot. Notice how if Ike air dodges too far off the stage he CANNOT make it back, well Din's fire sure is good at making people air dodge now isn't it? Or would you rather take a free 10% every single time?

The naivety of some of the people in this thread is ludicrous. One thing I will say though is I do respect the Marsulas's opinion as he contributes to the Luigi boards quite often, but really I cannot bring myself to agree with you people. Its like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Rykoshet]

Notice how if Ike air dodges too far off the stage he CANNOT make it back, well Din's fire sure is good at making people air dodge now isn't it? Or would you rather take a free 10% every single time?

The latter, it pops me up and gets me back on the stage, are you out of your mind? Furthermore you're not keeping me off stage anyway. Din's fire is a pretty pathetic edgeguard, and you know full well that zelda is committing suicide if she goes off stage and tries to challenge aether herself. 10 damage in exchange for surviving? Any day.

 

[Nakayorz]

Are you guys even serious? I have a huge amount of experience against Zelda, and I'll tell you, this one isn't much to brag about. DM is significantly better, then again he mains Zelda... Point being, NL is decent, but he isn't doing anything we haven't seen before guys, you are just hungry for a good Zelda to come along and bring her respect.

Ike is at a disadvantage entirely in this matchup as well. You say Din's isn't much of a threat to Ike off the stage? Are you smoking a joint rolled in downsyndrome? Ike has one of the most predicable recoveries in the game, and Din's fire is perfect at hitting that spot. Notice how if Ike air dodges too far off the stage he CANNOT make it back, well Din's fire sure is good at making people air dodge now isn't it? Or would you rather take a free 10% every single time?

The naivety of some of the people in this thread is ludicrous. One thing I will say though is I do respect the Marsulas's opinion as he contributes to the Luigi boards quite often, but really I cannot bring myself to agree with you people. Its like talking to a brick wall.

Correction, you have a lot of experience against swastikapyle. A Zelda that a little over a week ago lacked good control over farore's wind, and spammed din's fire to the point where you'd punish him to hell and back for it and he kept saving you with din's the majority of the time that you're off stage. If an Ike is so far out and low that he has to quick draw he's dead anyway if you edge guard properly, using din's just gives him the option of taking the hit to be popped up and have plenty of space and time to opt for Aether as a recovery. There is something to be said for baiting an air dodge to follow up with a killshot as they come out of it yes but din's bombing ike off stage isn't anything that helps zelda in the matchup.

The bottom line is unless you're completely reckless and impatient as an ike player. Zelda is in a world of hurt for the matchup. But I don't blame you for thinking the way you do since the majority of ike players are reckless and impatient so it's easy to get the wrong impression of the character's capabilities.

As a sidenote I'd like to add that although I can't speak for the others, I was content with ninjalink keeping a low profile all this time after how the community was completely unappreciative when he initially tried to contribute. Nor do I really give a **** about how much respect Zelda gets in the tiers. I don't blame him for thinking the zelda community was unworthy then, and I definately don't blame him if he still thinks that way now.

edit: DM takes bigger flashy risks and many times it works out for him. Being heavily influenced by DM I often take too many risks that I get myself into trouble. But of course the flashy stuff is more interesting right? who cares if it takes 30 matches to get the interesting part into a combo video, you string enough of them together it makes you look way better than you are right? (no disrespect to DM of course) It's really amazing how easy it is to tell how little some viewers actually see when they watch a video.

And before anyone calls me some kind of uppity arrogant zelda player, you can ask anyone, I personally believe that I have no talent and that I'm nothing special, but it takes a lot for me to come out of the woodworks to comment when someone has the gall to talk down a player that's clearly better than them. If you're going to talk **** about people's videos you better have videos of your own that can actually hold water on the argument.

 

[LuigiKing]

The latter, it pops me up and gets me back on the stage, are you out of your mind? Furthermore you're not keeping me off stage anyway. Din's fire is a pretty pathetic edgeguard, and you know full well that zelda is committing suicide if she goes off stage and tries to challenge aether herself. 10 damage in exchange for surviving? Any day.

OK Rykoshet, what I was trying to say, and I admit I worded it poorly, was that as the Ike player will either eat the 10% and survive or just plain survive. If you are so far off the stage that you MUST use quickdraw to get back the Zelda can throw out a Din's fire and force you to eat the 10% and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it since you would die if you air dodged. See what I'm saying? Its a free 10% for Zelda every single time Ike is knocked offstage. I'm not trying to start a flame war, its just my opinion that Zelda has the advantage on this one. Not to say I don't like Ike, albeit hes not my boy (see a joke to ease tension!), but he just doesn't have what he needs for this matchup. He is horribly underestimated though, because Nair, **** jab combos, aether, he has all kinds of great tools at his disposal...

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Correction, you have a lot of experience against swastikapyle. A Zelda that a little over a week ago lacked good control over farore's wind, and spammed din's fire to the point where you'd punish him to hell and back for it and he kept saving you with din's the majority of the time that you're off stage.

You clearly have little idea how good Luigi's recovery is so I won't bother much with this point. You call it 'saving' when in reality it's 'put as much damage on him as you can since he'll be making it back to the stage anyways. FW is hard to control and a dangerous move (especially against Wigi), which is why I use it as little as I can.



If an Ike is so far out and low that he has to quick draw he's dead anyway if you edge guard properly, using din's just gives him the option of taking the hit to be popped up and have plenty of space and time to opt for Aether as a recovery. There is something to be said for baiting an air dodge to follow up with a killshot as they come out of it yes but din's bombing ike off stage isn't anything that helps zelda in the matchup.

It's free damage. How does that not help Zelda?


The bottom line is unless you're completely reckless and impatient as an ike player. Zelda is in a world of hurt for the matchup. But I don't blame you for thinking the way you do since the majority of ike players are reckless and impatient so it's easy to get the wrong impression of the character's capabilities.


I'll say it again, since no one could reply very well to my earlier comments. Marsulas at least made an effort.
Ike has lag. A lot of it. Why are you not seeing this? Why can't you admit to this character's shortcoming? I can admit to Zelda's.



As a sidenote I'd like to add that although I can't speak for the others, I was content with ninjalink keeping a low profile all this time after how the community was completely unappreciative when he initially tried to contribute. Nor do I really give a **** about how much respect Zelda gets in the tiers. I don't blame him for thinking the zelda community was unworthy then, and I definately don't blame him if he still thinks that way now.

NinjaLink barely keeps a low profile at all. His sig alone proclaims himself as the best. Look in the 'best video of each character' thread and see how many times he's nominated himself.


edit: DM takes bigger flashy risks and many times it works out for him. Being heavily influenced by DM I often take too many risks that I get myself into trouble. But of course the flashy stuff is more interesting right? who cares if it takes 30 matches to get the interesting part into a combo video, you string enough of them together it makes you look way better than you are right? (no disrespect to DM of course) It's really amazing how easy it is to tell how little some viewers actually see when they watch a video.

I almost never watch combo videos (with the exception of Claw's ZSS). DM gets respect because he has consistently good control and places better then most Zelda's in tourneys. He does do flashy stuff as well, and I tell him I think it's stupid. I see him try and land something like 50 to 70 lightning heels in his older matches and maybe 2 or 3 of them hit.

replies in red
10red

 

[J4pu]

Ya and Snake, DK, DDD, and Falco are fast?

edit: by your reasoning Sonic and Captain Falcon would be among the best characters in the game if "speed is almost everything"

I don't think you play Brawl much....Brawl is the most defensive-oriented game the smash series has ever seen. With the lack of combos and AT's, power and defense is more valuable than it has ever been. Sure speed does help but Zelda isn't exactly running circles around Ike either.

Falco is not slow
problem solved
/end thread

just a joke, no flaming please

 

[Rykoshet]

For one, if ike is so far out that landing a din's fire to "force an air dodge" that will kill his ability to return is a viable answer, you likely had a year and a day to edgehog the aether attempt instead, otherwise an air dodge doesn't preclude the ability to land on the stage otherwise. 10% damage or a "well he's far enough out anyway let me just end this now", like I said the decision is not pragmatic. I will eat the din's fire to pop myself up back onto the stage because in any ike's eyes taking 10% damage on a heavy character assuming they were high enough % to be knocked out far enough where din's is actually not a completely dumb move is well worth getting their feet back onto the stage.

I already responded to your lag accusations, ike's staples are either actually lagless or have minimal lag if used correctly and before you say "well that's only 4 moves", 2 of them string into the rest of his moveset, not to mention his grabs which punish excessive shielders. The slower moves are meant to punish defensive maneuvers, who cares how laggy my up smash is (and when the back end is aimed towards you it's not very laggy at all) if it's being used to punish a retreat/cross up? I gave you a link to where I basically outspeed a marth, and not because the marth is in particular slow and you pretty much ignored it.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Sorry, I missed the video previously, was it added in an edit?

I watched it, and I agree that you played good. You played better then the Marth, and that's why you won. But just because you played better does not mean that Ike is better. You know just as well as I do that a person's skill trumps character choice. That's why we all marvel at Futile's Wario and Anther's Pika when they beat metaknights.

You beat a marth. He screwed up a few times, and you capitalized on it very well. This still doesn't mean that Ike can keep up with the top tiers. It means the Marth made mistakes and got screwed for it.

Edit: By the way, if Upsmash and Fsmash are so easy to DI out of, WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER DO IT?

 

[-Mars-]

Sorry, I missed the video previously, was it added in an edit?

I watched it, and I agree that you played good. You played better then the Marth, and that's why you won. But just because you played better does not mean that Ike is better. You know just as well as I do that a person's skill trumps character choice. That's why we all marvel at Futile's Wario and Anther's Pika when they beat metaknights.

You beat a marth. He screwed up a few times, and you capitalized on it very well. This still doesn't mean that Ike can keep up with the top tiers. It means the Marth made mistakes and got screwed for it.

Edit: By the way, if Upsmash and Fsmash are so easy to DI out of, WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER DO IT?

He wasn't arguing about whether or not Ike can keep up with the high tiers........that's not what this is about. He was showing you how you can play Ike against a character faster than him. Like he said Ike has several moves with zero lag and a few others that are hard to punish which is what the video was all about.......Ike isn't horrifically slow.

 

[Nakayorz]

I'm well aware that Luigi can torpedo multiple times and use his jumps momentum with his tornado and uppercut jump afterwards. I was just giving you a taste of what you were doing on the forum. Honestly I don't know where you get off digging up the ancient videos to talk negatively about people's playstyles and act like it's a core flaw of how they play today.

Farore's wind control isn't just about bouncing around on the stage or trying to hit your opponent with it only to get punished on block. It's about knowing how to control it so you can actually recover so that when you fail miserably at performing Mega-Japan's Nayru's Glide to your advantage you at least force your opponent to have to edgehog you or read your exit point and punish to kill you. (Note: I wouldn't be even doing this if you hadn't started with this whole use ancient footage to prove your point on how bad someone is thing, except the footage I'm referring to is barely more than a week and a half old.)


As to the din's fire thing.. Ike isn't hard pressed to air dodge unless he'll die for it.. and the only situation where he will die for it he'd probably die anyway if you didn't dins him. So yeah.. that damage isn't free.. you're giving him another chance to breath on you with his hard hitting attacks.

Ike has a disjointed hitbox and even if his moves are laggy if you space them at the proper range most characters without a tether grab are very hard pressed to punish him on a whole bunch of moves on block that aren't his jab and back air. if you want specifics, nair fair and ftilt (note ONLY if spaced correctly) it's not that anyone doesn't acknowledge his shortcomings.. it's that you're not acknowledging his strengths in the matchup.

As to NinjaLink not keeping a low profile, I phrased it incorrectly. Because of people like you back in the day, I believe he deemed the zelda forum unworthy of anything he'd bother to contribute. so that's what I meant when I said low profile, my apologies for the error.

and okay fine, you don't watch combo videos. That's fine and you have an opinion that DM is stupid for taking risks for reward too, that's fine too. it's all your opinion and you're entitled to it. It shouldn't be such a shocker that the rest of the people in this thread think you're stupid for thinking din's fire shuts down Ike as a freebie win, cuz that's their opinion. And it's my opinion that you got some nerve judging people off of footage from half a year ago (yes it's been that long) when they have more recent footage.

I stayed off this board for a long time because I practically gave up on the community, and I'm disappointed that someone had to drag me into this, why'd you have to bring me up anyway? Can't you just back up your argument without freaking reverse namedropping someone?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I'm well aware that Luigi can torpedo multiple times and use his jumps momentum with his tornado and uppercut jump afterwards. I was just giving you a taste of what you were doing on the forum. Honestly I don't know where you get off digging up the ancient videos to talk negatively about people's playstyles and act like it's a core flaw of how they play today.

I did that because people were claiming Rykoshet to be a Zelda killer, so I looked up some videos. I honestly had no interest in you whatsoever. You'll notice I also said you displayed some TALENT in your other videos. My point was that Rykoshet apparently had an amazing reputation for beating Zeldas but you were the only person I could find.

Farore's wind control isn't just about bouncing around on the stage or trying to hit your opponent with it only to get punished on block. It's about knowing how to control it so you can actually recover so that when you fail miserably at performing Mega-Japan's Nayru's Glide to your advantage you at least force your opponent to have to edgehog you or read your exit point and punish to kill you. (Note: I wouldn't be even doing this if you hadn't started with this whole use ancient footage to prove your point on how bad someone is thing, except the footage I'm referring to is barely more than a week and a half old.)

You are rating me entirely based off of the fact that I missed some FW. Everyone does that. DM does that. You do that. Against a good Luigi, it's nearly impossible to do a FW from off stage without getting either edgehogged or Fire uppercutted.

As to the din's fire thing.. Ike isn't hard pressed to air dodge unless he'll die for it.. and the only situation where he will die for it he'd probably die anyway if you didn't dins him. So yeah.. that damage isn't free.. you're giving him another chance to breath on you with his hard hitting attacks.

The point is that Ike would have made it back, REGARDLESS of whether or not you used Din's Fire. Using Din's Fire is better then doing nothing. Instead of coming back with nothing, he comes back with an extra 9%. That is a good thing. If the Ike WAS going to die, then I wouldn't be casting the Din's. That's just stupid.

Ike has a disjointed hitbox and even if his moves are laggy if you space them at the proper range most characters without a tether grab are very hard pressed to punish him on a whole bunch of moves on block that aren't his jab and back air. if you want specifics, nair fair and ftilt (note ONLY if spaced correctly) it's not that anyone doesn't acknowledge his shortcomings.. it's that you're not acknowledging his strengths in the matchup.

I acknowledge his strengths, I just think Zelda has more of them. Ike has great range and power on his moves. Zelda is faster, her moves last longer, she can punish better, and she ALSO has priority out the ***, not to mention a projectile.

As to NinjaLink not keeping a low profile, I phrased it incorrectly. Because of people like you back in the day, I believe he deemed the zelda forum unworthy of anything he'd bother to contribute. so that's what I meant when I said low profile, my apologies for the error.

People like me? People like me who don't think he's amazing? I didn't say he was a bad player even once. All I said was that I don't think his Zelda is exceptional. If he takes offense to that, I think he has some humbling to do.

and okay fine, you don't watch combo videos. That's fine and you have an opinion that DM is stupid for taking risks for reward too, that's fine too. it's all your opinion and you're entitled to it. It shouldn't be such a shocker that the rest of the people in this thread think you're stupid for thinking din's fire shuts down Ike as a freebie win, cuz that's their opinion. And it's my opinion that you got some nerve judging people off of footage from half a year ago (yes it's been that long) when they have more recent footage.

I never even once said that Din's Fire shuts down Ike. You pretended I said that, and now you're attacking me for what I didn't say. I said it gives Zelda an advantage. You've made it abundantly clear that I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry, I was doing that purely to examine Ryko's status as a Zelda killer. I looked at the newer footage as well and complimented you, but you seem to be ignoring that.

I stayed off this board for a long time because I practically gave up on the community, and I'm disappointed that someone had to drag me into this, why'd you have to bring me up anyway? Can't you just back up your argument without freaking reverse namedropping someone?

I honestly didn't care about you even a little bit, you were just the only Zelda I could find Rykoshet fighting on his profile.

10redreplies


What's a reverse namedrop

 

[Nakayorz]

I rated you off of something ridiculous because you did it to both me and DM.

I can just as easily make claims about how Zelda is easily edgehogged or front smashed/faired/eruptioned etc by ike when trying to recover with FW NinjaLink has already proven you wrong but you say he's nothing special when he does something you think is impossible.

Ok looks like I have to spell this out for you. If Ike is forced to quickdraw hitting him with din's fire is stupid. If you don't KILL him with it you just gave him the option of using aether instead. and if you Din's him out of aether you're giving him more offensive options to get back since he can now aerial near the stage too. if you just LET him quick draw depending on where he is you can force the connection animation while he's off stage and he falls. if he's stage level you can teleport cancel him as NL so eloquently did. you can edge hog him if he goes for the ledge with it. or you can shield him on the stage and down smash him. OR you can do what YOU think is good and damage him more and give him all these options to fight back.

And news flash Zelda's slightly faster than Ike but she actually walks/runs slower than him. She also has long recovery lag after a lot of her moves as well.

As for your adamant clinging to din's fire putting the fight in zelda's favor you definately imply it's some kind of huge trump card for her in post number 30 in this thread. Spamming din's fire to the degree that you do will get you killed against a good ike.

 

[NinjaLink]

OK seems i have to step in here. I've done the matchup from both sides. Ike has an advantage. If ike does a spaced fair to jab, ur not hitting him. Dins is nothing. He can just hit them. Yes it makes him approach but at the same time do u WANT to be in a corner against ike.......i think not. Yes zeldas aerials has less lag but what good is it IF U CANT TOUCH HIM? If Ike ftilts zeldas shield, it pushes zelda back and the most u can get is a dash attack. Nothing more. U'll never land a fair if u blocked a spaced ftilt.

If ur confident about zelda havin the advantage, u obviously kno the ins and outs of the matchup. Fight me or rykoshet's ike and see if u think the same. Me not being an exceptional zelda? Really? Ur sayin ONLY DM? No discredit to DM but just because he places high in hawaii doesnt make him the only one. Who says theres comp in hawaii? Its only hawaii. Thats the only comp hes had according to my knowledge. I seen his comp..............yea.

Also i seen ur vids. Ur not impressive as well. I've played luigis and i have had no problem recovering or avoid gettin firepunched. Zeldas fsmash beats luigis air game. But he can nair ur dins fire so dont bother.
ZELDA CAN NOT CAMP. U CANNOT CAMP WITH A SLOW CHARACTER.

If u feel offended, i think u have some humbling to do.

EDIT: Just to add I used to main zelda and the swordsman(mostly ike) since the japanese release. I used her more than anything else being she was an easy transition to melee. So if u ask if i did main her, i could say............'I used to'........
And to others, Thanks for the support.

 

[Rykoshet]

You are rating me entirely based off of the fact that I missed some FW. Everyone does that. DM does that. You do that. Against a good Luigi, it's nearly impossible to do a FW from off stage without getting either edgehogged or Fire uppercutted.

Note, this isn't remotely limited to just against luigi, edgehogging is a universal response and I've hit a zelda out of a FW with a tippered Fsmash as marth before (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10pHpQRaBl0 1:08-1:13. NL's use of FW to go straight down to the ledge was the main one that caught me offguard but in the case I had it perfectly scouted I used fsmash in a situation I should have used ftilt, got spot dodged for it. It's worth noting that my marth is honestly just mediocre at the very best.), the thing is just a bad bad recovery, which is why I'm used to edgeguarding zelda so hard.

Sorry, I missed the video previously, was it added in an edit?

I watched it, and I agree that you played good. You played better then the Marth, and that's why you won. But just because you played better does not mean that Ike is better. You know just as well as I do that a person's skill trumps character choice. That's why we all marvel at Futile's Wario and Anther's Pika when they beat metaknights.

You beat a marth. He screwed up a few times, and you capitalized on it very well. This still doesn't mean that Ike can keep up with the top tiers. It means the Marth made mistakes and got screwed for it.

I know full well that marth is a better character than Ike is, I know full well that most of the cast is. I'm not the type of player who just blindly backs my main, I just play it to show that it's not a complete pushover and have varying results (for example the first and last time I played shadow's meta knight, I got 3 stocked twice. When I played NL's diddy, I got 3 stocked, 1 stocked, 3 stocked, then I won. I actually won the one on FD but lost 3 on stages with platforms...) but at least I'm garnering respect and I get the much needed practice I want against people who will force me to become faster and smarter about things. The game is about capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes and forcing them into situations where they create more. That fsmash at the starting stock was just me scouting a response I saw against another ike and knowing what kirk did to me when I tried the very same thing.

The operative point in that video was not whether or not ike is better than a character that actually has the most free and easy way to instant edgeguard him, it was to show that ike isn't actually all that slow. Yes it limits his moveset on approach to maybe a handful of moves but spaced properly have fun capitalizing on it, the lack of lag on the moves and the speed of the followups will frustrate someone to no end, a 1/20th of a second punch out of any aerial with exceptional range isn't really something to scoff at.

Edit: By the way, if Upsmash and Fsmash are so easy to DI out of, WHY DOESNT ANYONE EVER DO IT?

Because people either don't know, don't try, or haven't gotten used to it. Spacies, sheik, and ike have especially hard times due to the fact that they fastfall into everything.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

This topic went from win to fail.

Ryko and NL are both good, I've played them both. I don't know who the **** you are Swastika but why don't you money match either of them if you think you're so amazing that din's spam is the instant win answer.. (lol)

 

[NinjaLink]

This topic went from win to fail.

Ryko and NL are both good, I've played them both. I don't know who the **** you are Swastika but why don't you money match either of them if you think you're so amazing that din's spam is the instant win answer.. (lol)

YAY its emmy. *whispers* hiiii emmy. ur cute :3 lol im silly

 

[SwastikaPyle]

So many freaking people making so many strawman arguments against me. Do I have to reply to you all? Here goes:

I rated you off of something ridiculous because you did it to both me and DM.

No, I never said DM was a bad player. This is once again you putting words in my mouth. I also said you had improved in your later videos. You continue to ignore this though, because now you're emotionally invested in the argument and don't want to look like a moron.

I can just as easily make claims about how Zelda is easily edgehogged or front smashed/faired/eruptioned etc by ike when trying to recover with FW NinjaLink has already proven you wrong but you say he's nothing special when he does something you think is impossible.

I never said it was impossible, I said it was hard. I complimented NinjaLink's ability to teleport. He is very good at it. You can't stop putting false words in my mouth though. Can't you just leave the topic already?

Ok looks like I have to spell this out for you. If Ike is forced to quickdraw hitting him with din's fire is stupid.

I was under the impression that projectiles cancels out quickdraw, thus making Ike dead in the water. If I'm incorrect, sorry.

If you don't KILL him with it you just gave him the option of using aether instead. and if you Din's him out of aether you're giving him more offensive options to get back since he can now aerial near the stage too.

He would get back onto the stage either way. Except if you Din's Fire him, he comes back on with an extra 8-11%. How is this a downside?

if you just LET him quick draw depending on where he is you can force the connection animation while he's off stage and he falls. if he's stage level you can teleport cancel him as NL so eloquently did. you can edge hog him if he goes for the ledge with it. or you can shield him on the stage and down smash him. OR you can do what YOU think is good and damage him more and give him all these options to fight back.

And news flash Zelda's slightly faster than Ike but she actually walks/runs slower than him. She also has long recovery lag after a lot of her moves as well.

Her moves come out faster and last longer. She can punish faster and stronger (just spot-dodge Ike's up-smash and you've probably got a free Lightning Heel).



As for your adamant clinging to din's fire putting the fight in zelda's favor you definately imply it's some kind of huge trump card for her in post number 30 in this thread. Spamming din's fire to the degree that you do will get you killed against a good ike.

A good player will play differently depending on who is opponent is (unless he's an mk). I spam Din's against that Luigi because he has a relatively limited range and slidy, slow movement. If I were playing against an Ike, I would be reserving it more to keep myself from getting fair'd.

OK seems i have to step in here. I've done the matchup from both sides. Ike has an advantage. If ike does a spaced fair to jab, ur not hitting him. Dins is nothing. He can just hit them. Yes it makes him approach but at the same time do u WANT to be in a corner against ike.......i think not. Yes zeldas aerials has less lag but what good is it IF U CANT TOUCH HIM? If Ike ftilts zeldas shield, it pushes zelda back and the most u can get is a dash attack. Nothing more. U'll never land a fair if u blocked a spaced ftilt.

What about spot dodging? Zelda's dsmash alone is fast enough to beat almost everything in Ike's arsenal.

If ur confident about zelda havin the advantage, u obviously kno the ins and outs of the matchup. Fight me or rykoshet's ike and see if u think the same. Me not being an exceptional zelda? Really? Ur sayin ONLY DM? No discredit to DM but just because he places high in hawaii doesnt make him the only one. Who says theres comp in hawaii? Its only hawaii. Thats the only comp hes had according to my knowledge. I seen his comp..............yea.

Funny how the last poster says I insult DM and this one says I idolize him.

And wow at you getting angry because I said you weren't an exceptional Zelda. I'm the one who needs a humbling now? I called you 'good' and said you were talented, but that isn't enough for you?

I disagree with some of the decisions DM makes (constantly trying for lightning heels) but I still think he is a great Zelda. Does everyone here think in extremes except for me?

Also i seen ur vids. Ur not impressive as well. I've played luigis and i have had no problem recovering or avoid gettin firepunched. Zeldas fsmash beats luigis air game. But he can nair ur dins fire so dont bother.
ZELDA CAN NOT CAMP. U CANNOT CAMP WITH A SLOW CHARACTER.

Good for you, but if you say Zelda's f-smash beats Luigi's air game then it leads me to believe that the Luigis you played against were nothing special at all. Luigi's air game is exceptional. Yes he can nair through Din's Fire. That doesn't mean you should stop trying it. If you watch the vids, you'll see it still works half the time. Persistence is key.

If u feel offended, i think u have some humbling to do.

Please...

The operative point in that video was not whether or not ike is better than a character that actually has the most free and easy way to instant edgeguard him, it was to show that ike isn't actually all that slow. Yes it limits his moveset on approach to maybe a handful of moves but spaced properly have fun capitalizing on it, the lack of lag on the moves and the speed of the followups will frustrate someone to no end, a 1/20th of a second punch out of any aerial with exceptional range isn't really something to scoff at.

I admitted earlier that Ike had a couple fast moves. I still don't think this puts him on par with Zelda.

This topic went from win to fail.

Ryko and NL are both good, I've played them both. I don't know who the **** you are Swastika but why don't you money match either of them if you think you're so amazing that din's spam is the instant win answer.. (lol)

Go**** am I sick of idiots putting words in my mouth. I never said either of them were bad players, not even once, and I never said I was an amazing Zelda, and I never said Din's Fire was an instant win.

I'd absolutely LOVE to MM you guys. Come on up to Idaho, I'm participating in the EWU Monthly on Oct 11.

4:10amchars

 

[NinjaLink]

Just wondering, how do u place in tournaments?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I thought you'd NEVER question my credentials instead of replying to my points.

I've never won any. I might do better (find some) if I lived in SoCal instead of Idaho. That sadly isn't the case.

 

[NinjaLink]

I thought you'd NEVER question my credentials instead of replying to my points.

I've never won any. I might do better (find some) if I lived in SoCal instead of Idaho. That sadly isn't the case.

ok then. U already kno my standings in tourneys.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Yes. Good on you for dodging the reply. Never miss an opportunity to point out how great you are!

 

[NinjaLink]

Yes. Good on you for dodging the reply. Never miss an opportunity to point out how great you are!

Not sure how to take that but ok.

 

[Rykoshet]

I admitted earlier that Ike had a couple fast moves. I still don't think this puts him on par with Zelda.

Zelda has 4 moves on the ground that are notoriously fast on startup and 3 require you to be practically up her skirt for them to connect (up smash, down smash, nayru's love) and all 3, if blocked, or dodged, can be punished hard for doing so (And yes, a back air is a HARD punishment) since they all have horrible recovery on the back end. The 4th is her down tilt and it functions as her jab practically. Her standing grab is not in this category because it's not even quick, and her jab debatably can be put in this category.

Of the 4 moves I mentioned of ike's, you have to power shield 3 of them to punish them reliably.

As far as moves that are not laggy on recovery... that leaves her down tilt, her front air, her neutral air, and her back air. Nair is a bait move and a follow up, not really an approaching move, her fair and back air are fairly easy to see coming and are punishable if they
A) Sweet spot and get blocked/countered
B) Sour spot at all.

Zelda is not a fast character, her moveset is as notorious for being laggy as ike's is, at least all 4 of my quick non-grabs are approaches.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Zelda has 4 moves on the ground that are notoriously fast on startup and 3 require you to be practically up her skirt for them to connect (up smash, down smash, nayru's love) and all 3, if blocked, or dodged, can be punished hard for doing so (And yes, a back air is a HARD punishment) since they all have horrible recovery on the back end. The 4th is her down tilt and it functions as her jab practically. Her standing grab is not in this category because it's not even quick, and her jab debatably can be put in this category.

I think this is just plain underestimation. You definitely don't have to be 'up her skirt' for them to connect. Or at least, when you say up her skirt it sounds as though it would have to be as close as Jigg's rest to work. Zelda is notorious for having smash attacks that suck you in and hit multiple times. Isn't it frustrating as hell to block the first five hits of an up-smash and then your hand slips and the last one sends you flying in the sky? Also, good luck spot dodging her u-and-f-smash attacks. You need machine-like accuracy to do that on purpose.

All of her smashes have less startup lag, harder to dodge, hit multiple times. And because they are as lightning quick as you say, they are **** hard to punish.


Of the 4 moves I mentioned of ike's, you have to power shield 3 of them to punish them reliably.

Why not spot dodge, as I see so many competitive players choosing to do?

As far as moves that are not laggy on recovery... that leaves her down tilt, her front air, her neutral air, and her back air. Nair is a bait move and a follow up, not really an approaching move, her fair and back air are fairly easy to see coming and are punishable if they
A) Sweet spot and get blocked/countered
B) Sour spot at all.

These are 'special occasion' moves (In my opinion, not DMs). You save them for the right moment, such as using a Nair when they are on a platform or bairing them after you've spotdodged a laggy move.

Zelda is not a fast character, her moveset is as notorious for being laggy as ike's is, at least all 4 of my quick non-grabs are approaches.

Please tell me who else thinks Zelda's moveset is as laggy as Ike's is. This just can't be true. IS there an SBR thread or something?

10redchars

 

[Nakayorz]

Ok pyle you can act like you never said this or that but.

In post #35 you talk about how I can't emulate the talent in a match from may in other matches, and your reasoning is by comparing it to a match in april as shown in post #45. I'm disregarding your attempts of correcting your mistakes in the later post because of the fact that you disregarded me correcting my mistakes in footage when you talked about how you presented "evidence on why I think Naks is bad" in post #38.

As for DM, you call him stupid in post #58 and you're basing that off of footage from like february and march. Wow that was a long time ago too.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't people improve over time making more up to date videos more accurate than the out of date ones? Hmmm...

Verbatim from post #58 "Against a good Luigi, it's nearly impossible to do a FW from off stage without getting either edgehogged or Fire uppercutted."
I don't see the word hard anywhere in there, I do see the word impossible though. but fine I guess I forgot to put the word 'nearly' in my last post.

I'm shocked about this segment of post #70

Ok looks like I have to spell this out for you. If Ike is forced to quickdraw hitting him with din's fire is stupid.

I was under the impression that projectiles cancels out quickdraw, thus making Ike dead in the water. If I'm incorrect, sorry.

If you don't KILL him with it you just gave him the option of using aether instead. and if you Din's him out of aether you're giving him more offensive options to get back since he can now aerial near the stage too.

He would get back onto the stage either way. Except if you Din's Fire him, he comes back on with an extra 8-11%. How is this a downside?

if you just LET him quick draw depending on where he is you can force the connection animation while he's off stage and he falls. if he's stage level you can teleport cancel him as NL so eloquently did. you can edge hog him if he goes for the ledge with it. or you can shield him on the stage and down smash him. OR you can do what YOU think is good and damage him more and give him all these options to fight back.

You were under the impression that Din's leaves Ike dead in the water if you bomb him from off stage instead of popping him up? Why are you talking about 8-11% damage in that situation then? If you deal damage to someone they get hit by it clean and get popped up.

You quoted me, you should know the downside. for that 8-11% damage that you just got on him you gave him more aggressive options of returning to the stage, now that he's burning he can throw out aerials and air dodge; as opposed to being commited to quickdraw and being unable to do anything until he either grabs the ledge or lands. The downside is you lose the upside of letting him quickdraw back which leaves him in a position where he's easier to kill than if you din's him. which I already explained in the part you quoted under your question.

Her moves that come out faster and last longer are also ridiculously easy to punish when you block them and have just as much lag after you perform them. Zelda has laggy moves Din's fire included.

Okay I understand you're saying you'd play differently because the matchup is different and Luigi isn't Ike. LuigiKing has repeatedly demonstrated what the people in this thread are talking about as to why Din's fire is bad in your 9/20 matches. He nAirs Din's and punishes you for it. He also punishes your laggy moves a lot. It's all demonstrated in your own video, the main difference with ike is he needs fewer openings to land the KO because zelda is so light and he's so heavy.

To answer your question about spot dodging. there's an animation to spot dodging and you have to wait till you come out of spot dodge to retaliate. Powershielding doesn't take as long and hence your window to punish him requires you to powershield to punish him because you'd likely get jabbed during your retaliation attempt if you tried to spot dodge those properly spaced moves.

Edit: You're grossly overestimating the difficulty of blocking Zelda's Up smash, holding shield is a lot easier than powershielding and you can still punish her hard for doing it. The same applies to forward smash.

 

[RedSnowman]

Man I don't even know what to say in this thread anymore because it's become a crazy flame war... I guess I will just contribute/support a little. A good Ike has an advantage on all Zelda's imo. It's hard to play a good Ike. Also in response to some of the Luigi comments one huge advantage Zelda has in her recovery is the many of Luigi's moves send Zelda upwards and his horizontal float speed is so bad that Zelda has an easy recovery a lot of the time even w/o FW. FW isn't insanely punishable imo either. I would also like to add I think NL has a great Zelda and Swas is trolling imo.

 

[GodAtHand]

The worst thing about this thread is that NL = Ninjalink and Nayru's love... I keep getting confused.