Final Smashes: Meter or Item?

[SmashChu]

And making Smash Balls into a meter changes all of that all of a sudden=???

Who do you think is asking for it?

 

[gothrax]

I think two final smashes is asking too much, they should just change the ones that already exist.

However the idea of a meter that fills up depending on either how pleased the crowd is or how many combos you can string together sounds great!

And the best part of it is you wont need to delete the smash orb!
Cuz its purpose would no longer be to grant the power for a final smash, it would simply fill your smash meter to full.

 

[Johnknight1]

Who do you think is asking for it?

Players who like traditional fighting games with meters. It's not like Smash can't appeal to them. It's not some taboo thing.

Giving us old school fighting game fans/competitive players an option for a meter doesn't suddenly change the smash bros., and take away from the "casual," "party game," and "average fan" experience. In fact, it probably enriches it. I'm sure many such fans would be interested in an option for a Final Smash Meter, and would probably like to use it.

Besides, we're paying customers, too. It's not like Smash Bros. doesn't appeal to traditional fighting game fans. If it didn't, sales would be down noticeably for past smash games.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Time to copy Capcom because they're the cool kids.

Tekken and Virtua Fighter do fine without supers, Soul Calibur worked fine without them, DoA still does not include them and is wonderful. The only "traditional" fighters that work about seeming to need a super meter mechanic are most post-SFII 2-dimensional boxed-in fighters. This is coming from an avid fan of BB, Touhou Hisoutensoku, and Arcana Heart 3.

It's not like Smash Bros. doesn't appeal to traditional fighting game fans. If it didn't, sales would be down noticeably for past smash games.

Oh, and here I thought you were serious in your standpoint. Please don't talk in hypothetical if you have no statistics with which to back them up.

Giving us old school fighting game fans/competitive players an option...

You were no older than 9 when Smash64 was released. I very seriously doubt you were exploring the new metagame of SFIII:3S when SSB caught your attention. Call me skeptical if you so please, but I do not believe someone who was not a part of the tfg scene when Smash entered the game has the right to speak on the behalf of it.

Don't take any of this personally; we just seem to have completely opposite points of view on everything ever- I bet you even like Twinkies.

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^ It's just an option. I love me some options. I am an option wh**e. I want options for everything. That's why I would love an option for a meter. If the scenario was the opposite (like if in Brawl we had a meter, but no smash ball), I would be all for a smash ball, because I love options. The unique situations they can create are great!

Oh, and here I thought you were serious in your standpoint. Please don't talk in hypothetical if you have no statistics with which to back them up.

All I need to do is point to the (active) membership count of Smash Boards. Many/most posters are competitive smash bros. players to one degree or another. That doesn't mean they enter tournaments, but rather, they play with the conscious goal and intent of winning.

You were no older than 9 when Smash64 was released. I very seriously doubt you were exploring the new metagame of SFIII:3S when SSB caught your attention. Call me skeptical if you so please, but I do not believe someone who was not a part of the tfg scene when Smash entered the game has the right to speak on the behalf of it.

I owned Street Fighter II, and I had down all of the advanced attacks by age 6. I went to arcades about once every week to 3 weeks from ages 5-9 to face people at it, as well as play other games I wasn't nearly as good as. I played "with the conscious goal and intent of winning" (which is my definition of playing competitively btw), but I didn't enter tournaments or any of that super technical jazz. I just enjoyed playing the game with advanced tricks and I wanted to win every match, although I had fun win, lose, or draw.

Also, I was indifferent to Street Fighter III for the longest time. I just didn't like it until I gave it another shot a few years ago. I've loved it since then, but I still prefer II.

Don't take any of this personally; we just seem to have completely opposite points of view on everything ever- I bet you even like Twinkies.

I stopped eating most sweets years ago. I haven't had Twinkies in probably almost a decade. And even when I ate sweets when I was younger, I didn't even like Twinkies.

 

[Red(SP)]

The meter isn't needed as well as it being an unoriginal idea and the smash ball is a mere distraction from sharpening your senses as a player.

Imho we could do without them both.

 

[SmashChu]

Players who like traditional fighting games with meters. It's not like Smash can't appeal to them. It's not some taboo thing.

Giving us old school fighting game fans/competitive players an option for a meter doesn't suddenly change the smash bros., and take away from the "casual," "party game," and "average fan" experience. In fact, it probably enriches it. I'm sure many such fans would be interested in an option for a Final Smash Meter, and would probably like to use it.

Besides, we're paying customers, too. It's not like Smash Bros. doesn't appeal to traditional fighting game fans. If it didn't, sales would be down noticeably for past smash games.

People ask for the meter only because "it will make them more balanced/competitive ect." The meter is pushed not because it advances the game but so Smash can somehow be more competitive. The Small Ball does it's job and fits into the context of Smash well. Meters don't change the dynamic of the game and cause a lot of problems (like weakening final smashes). I might go more into this later.

Oh, and here I thought you were serious in your standpoint. Please don't talk in hypothetical if you have no statistics with which to back them up.

 

[Big-Cat]

How does a meter not change the dynamics of the game? I swear, aside from strategy games, you only look at the surface of things and not the depth/possibilities of things.

 

[Kink-Link5]

All I need to do is point to the (active) membership count of Smash Boards. Many/most posters are competitive smash bros. players to one degree or another. That doesn't mean they enter tournaments, but rather, they play with the conscious goal and intent of winning.

I didn't talk about competitive smash players, and neither did you until now.

Besides, we're paying customers, too. It's not like Smash Bros. doesn't appeal to traditional fighting game fans. If it didn't, sales would be down noticeably for past smash games.

The point of contention here is the bolded one.

Spoiler

This doesn't really help out his view point either. I could just as easily say if it wasn't for fans of Forza, Mario Kart would not sell nearly as well as it did.

John, my biggest problem with your argument is that you have no backup to your claim of "It wouldn't sell as well as it did without tfg supporters."

 

[SmashChu]

How does a meter not change the dynamics of the game? I swear, aside from strategy games, you only look at the surface of things and not the depth/possibilities of things.

I look at the feasibility of things. Or better yet, is this actually going to make the greater whole of players happy. Trying to force depth doesn't work well.

Also, I'm saying that a meter will change the game and will have to go backwards.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Keep smash balls the same. Meter is just too much really.

@Kink-Twinkies are bomb. I wouldn't eat them everyday but every now and then it's a nice treat.

 

[AIM0001]

Whatever Sakurai thinks is right for the game or Namco Bandai think is best for balancing. I think having a Smash Ball or a Smash Meter could both work.

Smash Ball: You could have it work the same way as in Brawl.

CON: I think it worked well in Brawl but if they bring the Smash Ball back I'd like it do be tweaked a bit. Im not sure how to go in depth on how it could be modified. I'll have to leave that one to the makers. I just feel it could be done differently in Smash 4.

Smash Meter: Switching to a meter would only happen if they want to give other players or even newcomers a chance to do their final smash. They wouldnt be doing it for the competitive scene. I see it more as a give everyone a chance to do a FS. Having a Smash Ball flying around on the stage sometimes isnt as random as you think. Some players may never have a chance to break the Smash Ball but with a meter evenually everyone will build up their meter atleast once to do their FS.

CON: Only problem with this is making sure players cant do FS's at the same time. I still feel it should be done one polayer at a time

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Smash Balls are fine and they should be kept, except that they should appear less and some Final Smashes shouldn't be better than others *cough*Super Sonic*cough*.

 

[Tiberious]

Well, even the Smash Balls follow a set of rules in Brawl. They start with something like 35 'HP', decaying the longer it stays out, and it takes that much damage to break it. The best way to see this effect is to have Ganondorf Warlock Punch the ball. It should break almost every time (Yoshi's D-Air is also a good move for this).

I kinda like the idea of a meter, and 'Smash Ball'-type items that give boosts to it, but I think it needs to be one level only. Having multiple 'Final' Smashes kinda defeats the purpose, I'd think.

 

[Johnknight1]

People ask for the meter only because "it will make them more balanced/competitive ect."

I'd like it as an incentive for succeeding (on offense) and to finish off opponents like a BAMF with a super kill move. I'm not a hardcore Mortal Kombat 2 fan (I love the game, though), but that incentive is why I prefer to save up my super moves for the final kill. Even without the blood, gore, and awesome graphics, finishing with a super move is just SO MUCH FUN! Having a meter would basically ensure that I would be able to do that. I don't care about balance in this case! I want more fun in smash bros, and this adds more fun.

The meter is pushed not because it advances the game but so Smash can somehow be more competitive.

Because clearly everyone who plays every traditional fighting game plays them competitively, or cares about how advanced the game is...

The Small Ball does it's job and fits into the context of Smash well.

"The context of Smash" is whatever the developers and Nintendo decides it is.

Meters don't change the dynamic of the game and cause a lot of problems (like weakening final smashes). I might go more into this later.

So having a meter weakens the final smash=??? Wouldn't, by that logic, the final smash weaken other items=??? Also, again, it would be an option (like an item), not required.

[COLLAPSE="Click here for a large image"]

[/COLLAPSE]

Almost all of those other games sold that well either because they came pre-packed with Wii consoles, had a brand new peripheral (almost always that was sold with it), or both.

The point of contention here is the bolded one.

That was poorly worded. I agree there. What I should have said was, "it's not like Smash Bros. doesn't appeal to some traditional fighting (and platform) game fans."

John, my biggest problem with your argument is that you have no backup to your claim of "It wouldn't sell as well as it did without tfg supporters."

I'm not making that claim. I'm making the claim that without the support of (current) active and vocal smash fans, those fans will disappear. If these 2 forthcoming Smash games are as boring as casual, this group of smash fans (which has casual, competitive, etc smash players) won't dub the series as one with one weak title. They will dub it as a series that is creatively dead (mods aside), with nothing left to add but more stuff. Basically, what actual Star Wars fans dub that garbage prequel trilogy (except not nearly as bad).

 

[Snakeyes]

I think it should stay the way it is now.

 

[Ussi]

Both. Item = instant meter fill, meter itself means can have final smash and prehaps a super smash (a lesser final smash basically, uses part of the meter too)

 

[umegames]

A Smash ball meter....i like. No more Instant win for Sonic hah. But on a serious note, i know nintendo will be looking to improve this area of the game, and i can see them using the meter format that PS-all stars is using, but the proposed idea of having to collect a 3-part smash ball to get your ultimate smash would be perfect

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

Smash Ball should stay, but ditch that mercy rule that if a player is terribly losing he/she gets an automatic Final Smash, it's not fair at all, let them work for that smash ball like the rest of us

 

[SmashChu]

I'd like it as an incentive for succeeding (on offense) and to finish off opponents like a BAMF with a super kill move. I'm not a hardcore Mortal Kombat 2 fan (I love the game, though), but that incentive is why I prefer to save up my super moves for the final kill. Even without the blood, gore, and awesome graphics, finishing with a super move is just SO MUCH FUN! Having a meter would basically ensure that I would be able to do that. I don't care about balance in this case! I want more fun in smash bros, and this adds more fun.

I can see that. But it's still would be a matter of opinion. I would say I find a Smash Ball more fun. It adds a new dynamic and when it comes out, a chase begins. it's also why it fits in Smash's context because we did this for Pokeballs as well. Not saying what you like is wrong. But we would look at everyone. That is a big question.

So having a meter weakens the final smash=??? Wouldn't, by that logic, the final smash weaken other items=??? Also, again, it would be an option (like an item), not required.

By being a meter, the final smash would have to be weaken in order to work.

The Smash Ball only appears at a set time and only one appears. No one else can have a final smash but the player who has it. Thus, it can be really powerful. It can do this because it is controlled. It only appears once for one persons at a set time. With a bar, the bar fills up based on what the player is doing. So there is no stable system. There is no definite state. But you can't have Fox call a landmaster after filling it up. It can happen at any point and time and is not controlled. It is also given to the player as long as they fight. This means you can get a landmaster more often. Other players can build up these too. if you had a bar and tried to keep the FS the same, you'd have actual chaos. As such, they'd have to become reasonable to justify the players getting them all the time and that there is no way for others players to prevent one from getting his FS. They'd have to be weakened and just be a super attack.

 

[ItsSilverLPs]

Maybe it should be both a gauge and the item.
The meter would do a cutscene-like special attack (like Captain Falcon's in Brawl), and the Smash Ball would do a non-cutscene attack (like all others in Brawl), or vice versa.
idk, just an idea.

 

[El Duderino]

The correct answer would be neither. Screen sized, cut-scene riddled, game-play interrupting super attacks are the plague that's been dragging the fighting genre down for years now.

I'm sick of watching when I want to be playing. And when I have control over some mass mayhem attack, shooting fish is barrel, while it sounds awesome, gets old fast. There's a reason why hitting someone with a bat feels infinitely more rewarding than watching people die with a Final Smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

When you think about it though, Final Smashes may prove to add an extra twist for certain boss fights.

You know how in Kirby's Return to Dream Land, the Grand Doomer has a phase where only Super Abilities can affect it!? Well, what if there are bosses who have phases where only Final Smashes can damage them!?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Some Final Smashes would have to be tweaked then, since some of them would not be effective due to bosses using HP instead of damage percentages like playable characters.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Some Final Smashes would have to be tweaked then, since some of them would not be effective due to bosses using HP instead of damage percentages like playable characters.

Magolor created a barrier that only Super Abilities can penetrate. That barrier had its own health system, where it'll lose one health bar for each time it's damaged.

Basically, how I'd see this working is that if a certain boss is down to only 1 HP, it'll form a barrier that only Final Smashes can damage. Of course, you'd have to damage the barrier up to 5 times to destroy it. Afterwards, you just need to damage the boss one more time with any kind of attack before it recovers a portion of its barrier.

Offensive Final Smashes are pretty well standard for this dilemma. For a Final Smash, such as the Peach Blossom and End of Day, just being near the move will damage the barrier. For the transformation Final Smashes, such as Giga Bowser and Wario-Man, any attack that the Final Smash character lands on the barrier will damage it; something that the normal playable characters will heavily lack. And for the power-up Final Smashes, such as the Super Dragon, Landmaster, and Super Sonic, any action that they do to the barrier will damage it.

Each time the barrier is damaged, it'll lose 1 HP, but it'll never have more than 5 HP. Multi-hit Final Smashes like the Triforce Slash and Great Aether are not able to deduct more than 1 HP from the barrier, but their animations will still play, with the final hit being the one that deducts the 1 HP. As for the Zero Laser, Samus will still change into Zero Suit Samus, and vice versa when Power Suit Samus is used.

Of course, the way to get the Final Smash would work as follows...

During the phase where the boss has its barrier active, three random portals will often pop up, releasing two random normal enemies, and one Smash Ball. You have to grab the Smash Ball and then execute your Final Smash; the Final Smash attack has to come into contact with the boss to damage its barrier.

Of course, the boss will only let the Final Smash damage the barrier one time per use, so once the Final Smash damages the barrier, it'll immediately end, and you'll have to repeat the process of getting the Smash Ball again; this basically means that you have to do up to 5 Final Smashes in order to completely destroy a 5 HP barrier.

 

[Red(SP)]

Smash Ball should stay, but ditch that mercy rule that if a player is terribly losing he/she gets an automatic Final Smash, it's not fair at all, let them work for that smash ball like the rest of us

Implying that any of the other players indeed tried to work for it.

I guess you haven't had much experience with 3 on 1 in randoms.

 

[DarkSouls]

By being a meter, the final smash would have to be weaken in order to work.

The Smash Ball only appears at a set time and only one appears. No one else can have a final smash but the player who has it. Thus, it can be really powerful. It can do this because it is controlled. It only appears once for one persons at a set time. With a bar, the bar fills up based on what the player is doing. So there is no stable system. There is no definite state. But you can't have Fox call a landmaster after filling it up. It can happen at any point and time and is not controlled. It is also given to the player as long as they fight. This means you can get a landmaster more often. Other players can build up these too. if you had a bar and tried to keep the FS the same, you'd have actual chaos. As such, they'd have to become reasonable to justify the players getting them all the time and that there is no way for others players to prevent one from getting his FS. They'd have to be weakened and just be a super attack.

Final Smashes are already horrifically unbalanced. Some of them (ROB's continuous laser beam) are easily weak enough to be meter attacks, while other (Landmaster) result in far too many kills to even be considered. Having them be meter attacks might give them an incentive to balance them.

Super attacks can still be impressive while being weak; I find Mario Finale and Link's Tri-force attack far cooler looking than Super Sonic, even though they're terrible in comparison. Hell, the coolest-looking Hyper Combo in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 (Deadpool's Fourth Wall Catastrophe) is also one of the worst.

 

[SmashChu]

Final Smashes are already horrifically unbalanced. Some of them (ROB's continuous laser beam) are easily weak enough to be meter attacks, while other (Landmaster) result in far too many kills to even be considered. Having them be meter attacks might give them an incentive to balance them.

Super attacks can still be impressive while being weak; I find Mario Finale and Link's Tri-force attack far cooler looking than Super Sonic, even though they're terrible in comparison. Hell, the coolest-looking Hyper Combo in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 (Deadpool's Fourth Wall Catastrophe) is also one of the worst.

That is a moot point because the final smashes are not balanced along side each other. They are part of the character and balanced that way.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's "moot", not "mute". They are part of the character, but they are by no means balanced. Was there any reason for Super Sonic for it to be as blatantly broken as it is or for Mario Finale and Zero Laser to have such poor startup?

 

[Blue Warrior]

I feel like the final smashes themselves would need MAJOR tweaking if this were to be made a reality. Otherwise, I would pass.

 

[kisamefishfries]

how about both? There is a conjoined meter between all players it fills up when a character causes damage to another player, then when the meter is full the ball appears closest to whoever filled up the bar the most. This could be interesting as the meter could fill in different colors depending on the character color.

 

[El Duderino]

Again, the problem is not how it is implemented, but rather how little it contributes to the game aside from being a flashy spectacle.

If smash adopted a meter, it would turn into a game of "hurr... I caught you with my special attack, take massive damage" or "hur, I counter your special with mine". It's a gameplay mechanic that just gets plain dull after a while, just as smash balls as an items do, except those are optional. I'd say one of the best things about smash is the lack of a meter.

 

[DarkSouls]

Again, the problem is not how it is implemented, but rather how little it contributes to the game aside from being a flashy spectacle.

If smash adopted a meter, it would turn into a game of "hurr... I caught you with my special attack, take massive damage" or "hur, I counter your special with mine". It's a gameplay mechanic that just gets plain dull after a while, just as smash balls as an items do, except those are optional. I'd say one of the best things about smash is the lack of a meter.

So you're more of a Hyper Fighting fan than a Super Turbo fan?

That is a mute point because the final smashes are not balanced along side each other. They are part of the character and balanced that way.

Oh awesome! I guess Falco has a terrible Final Smash and Samus has an amazing one.

 

[SmashChu]

It's "moot", not "mute". They are part of the character, but they are by no means balanced. Was there any reason for Super Sonic for it to be as blatantly broken as it is or for Mario Finale and Zero Laser to have such poor startup?

Sonic doesn't KO very well by himself, so, Super Sonic. As for the other two, you know what a set up is? People already know you have the smash ball anyway, so the start up time isn't as much of an issue. They are ones you can't use instantly.

Not all final smashes are made equal, and that's the point.

Again, the problem is not how it is implemented, but rather how little it contributes to the game aside from being a flashy spectacle.

If smash adopted a meter, it would turn into a game of "hurr... I caught you with my special attack, take massive damage" or "hur, I counter your special with mine". It's a gameplay mechanic that just gets plain dull after a while, just as smash balls as an items do, except those are optional. I'd say one of the best things about smash is the lack of a meter.

Let's look in how they actual contribute.

The basic gist of it? I suppose you could say it’s kind of like a powerful and personalized hammer. (Or maybe not…)

The idea is that it is suppose to be powerful. The thing is, it's an item. It is an attack the character uses but is dictated via an item. Like other items, it's powerful and coveted. To be a meter, the system needs to be retooled and it would just be the same as every other game out there. Smash Bros did this in the context of Smash. It turned the dynamic of fighting for items into a much bigger ordeal. Now, it's not just going and grabbing the item. Now you fight over it (which is what everyone forgets. You still have to work for it).

The reason I hate the meter arguments is they are always from the side that "It's not balanced for competitive play. Smash needs to be competitive." Besides the fact it doesn't, Smash's success was doing it different from other fighting games.

 

[AIM0001]

When you think about it though, Final Smashes may prove to add an extra twist for certain boss fights.

You know how in Kirby's Return to Dream Land, the Grand Doomer has a phase where only Super Abilities can affect it!? Well, what if there are bosses who have phases where only Final Smashes can damage them!?

I like this idea alot actually!

You know what would be a pain in the @$$??? If bosses were allowed to activate the Final Smash kinda how in Mortal Kombat how bosses were allowed to perform X-Ray moves on you!

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Actually, I think we can have both. The Smash Ball can stay and have the big, flashy super special awesome move, while characters can also build meter to use on "powered up" versions of their special moves. Kinda like Project M's Lucario with his revamped aura and A+B attacks.

And both should be balanced. It doesn't matter whether or not that FS's are true to the character, there is no reason that any one characters' FS should be any stronger than any other characters' FS.

 

[DarkSouls]

And both should be balanced. It doesn't matter whether or not that FS's are true to the character, there is no reason that any one characters' FS should be any stronger than any other characters' FS.

Not to mention that some Final Smashes aren't true to the characters... *Looks long and hard at the Mother characters*

But yeah, I feel terrible playing matches with final smashes on against somebody like Sonic or Falco. It's not a fun mechanic right now; at the very least, the item needs to be toned down for some characters so it's not a guaranteed kill from any part of the screen, and Final Smashes need to be rarer so that item matches don't just depend on them.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sonic doesn't KO very well by himself, so, Super Sonic. As for the other two, you know what a set up is? People already know you have the smash ball anyway, so the start up time isn't as much of an issue. They are ones you can't use instantly.

Not all final smashes are made equal, and that's the point.

So it's perfectly okay for Sonic to literally spawn kill somebody with Super Sonic?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

So it's perfectly okay for Sonic to literally spawn kill somebody with Super Sonic?

Exactly. So because sonic kinda sucks, it means he should be able to kill all his opponents at least twice?

Not to mention that some Final Smashes aren't true to the characters... *Looks long and hard at the Mother characters*

Lol completely forgot about that. But then again, 3/4 of their specials aren't true to the games either.

 

[El Duderino]

So you're more of a Hyper Fighting fan than a Super Turbo fan?

Absolutely not, but I'm not sure how my preference in SFII versions has anything to do with disliking overbearing flashy super attacks.

The idea is that it is suppose to be powerful. The thing is, it's an item. It is an attack the character uses but is dictated via an item.

And my point was it's still not that satisfying in pratice after the spectacle wears thin. The most compelling part is how you get it, not how you use it. Even as far as items go, it's more on the gimmicky and less rewarding side. Sure, you get more kills, but more powerful doesn't equal better designed, especially with how it stalls the game.