Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

[staindgrey]

Stocks only at 2 stocks in Smash 4 made it difficult to make a comeback that same round. It's partly why I stopped caring about competitive Smash 4. Final Smash meter should be allowed at 3 or 4 stocks. 2 stock tournament matches are out of the question. It was maddening that even Smash 4 had 2 stocks in per round in tournaments when Brawl had an even slower Pace to it but was played with 3 stocks per round. It made sense for Melee to use more stocks since it was the fastest paced smash game. With final smashes allowed it may need to go up to 4 stocks if it rivals the pace of Melee.

This was my primary problem with the Smash 4 competitive scene. Why was it two stocks?

One accidental SD and you're pretty much forfeiting the round and waiting until the next round to make up for it. I genuinely hope Ultimate goes back to three stock matches. Two is maddening.

 

[MrArska]

I'll use them in friendlies a lot, but in actual tourneys?
Not unless all of them are greatly nerved (No, Marth/Lucina killing at 20% as opposed to 0% is not a major nerf.)

 

[blackghost]

This was my primary problem with the Smash 4 competitive scene. Why was it two stocks?

One accidental SD and you're pretty much forfeiting the round and waiting until the next round to make up for it. I genuinely hope Ultimate goes back to three stock matches. Two is maddening.

it was two stocks strictly because of for glory. and conservative players got what they wanted even when it wasnt good for the game (happened on every argument on smash 4 i believe)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

it was two stocks strictly because of for glory. and conservative players got what they wanted even when it wasnt good for the game (happened on every argument on smash 4 i believe)

I believe it was also just due to the nature of the game. People living forever, approaching wasn’t very good, rage heavily promoted defense, bait oriented gameplay, running up and shielding being too strong, etc. In congruence with time constraints at tournaments and their venues pretty much made the rule seem solid. I do like 3 stocks though.

but yeah, final smashes aren’t gonna fly, period. they aren’t made the same and they’ll make camping worse. Besides, what if you are a character that counts on using their neutral B, like Samus / Zamus, Pikachu, of Shulk? Do you just waste your final smash and get punished / lose neutral? What if I kill my opponent and I still have a final smash? So I get to have rage and a final smash? That’s bs.

Players should look at the real competitive applications behind using the meter final smash before assuming that players are banning it by default. it’s not cut out for competition.

Let’s see how fair the Marth vs Mario match up will be.

Mario uses Final Smash

Marth double jump over it

Punish with Final Smash

Free stock

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Probably not, since you can get some really cheesy stocks with it.

 

[Vulgun]

I'm leaning more towards for Final Smash meters once again. I saw the new Treehouse footage that had meters on, and I have to say that I'm very much so impressed on how slow the meters charged in the first place. From what the Treehouse showed, Lucario took at least 180 or so damage before gaining his Final Smash, and that's with the natural progression of the meters. Without it, I would put the amount of damage required to be approximately around 200% before you can get a Final Smash. By then, though, you will have probably already lost a stock or two, unless you end up being lucky.

Now while there are still Final Smashes that will certainly be cause for concern, like for instance, Marth and Lucina's Critical Hits, I think that the fact that the meters charge so slowly will prevent Final Smashes from being frequent enough in a match to matter all too much. Additionally, with metered Final Smash damage and knockback values being reduced, most Final Smashes don't kill until around the same time as a Smash attack would (with some exceptions). The damage output in particular can be comparable to some slightly higher end Smash attacks and specials, too.

However, I will have to state that I don't think metered Final Smashes should ever be legal for doubles matches simply on the basis that meters will likely charge too fast, and we don't know if meters can charge from friendly fire. In 1-on-1 matches, however, I think metered Final Smashes could fit in quite well with the competitive environment since we now know they're not going to be frequent (you'll likely get 1 per player per match), and since we know that aside from a few instances, they're relatively tame.

I definitely think that legal Final Smash meters could be something we ought to test out and explore, now that we know a lot more about them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm going to throw out there that I thought the treehouse footage was very convincing that these shouldn't really even be considered. I saw several things:

-Even metered, these hit WAY too hard. They all consistently kill at like 80% or even lower. It's otherwise often really not easy to kill until like 150% realistically in modern Smash. This pretty much means that whenever they're an option they make all other kill moves absurdly irrelevant.
-They really do charge pretty fast all things considered.
-They aren't balanced at all, and it's really obvious. Diddy Kong and Daisy have ones that are literally free to hit with; your opponent makes the mistake of existing when you have a full meter and you just instantly get a full clean hit. Other characters have to actually aim, and we still remember how awful Lucas's looks.
-On that note, I still don't understand why Diddy Kong, of all characters, needed to have one of the obviously best ones in the game. A system that makes having weak kill moves just not matter was already massively pro-Diddy; do they want this setting to just make Diddy Kong as good as he was in 4 at launch?
-These animations take forever and really make the games far more annoying to watch and presumably twice as annoying to actually play. They really do just ruin the pacing of play.

I definitely think this feature has an audience; I think a lot of people who like the crazy effects of items but don't like the disruptive garbage side of items will really enjoy this. However, there's just no place in competitive play for these, and it becomes more clear the more we see.

 

[J0eyboi]

After this Direct, I'm even more doubtful FS meter will be legal, for one reason:

It wasn't an option in preferred rulesets.

The fact that you can't play normal matches with it online will mean people won't want to use it because they won't have practice.

Unless it's an option in Arenas, which I doubt will happen but is a possibility, I don't think it has a chance of being legal.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

It probably has to be, since it seems you can't turn it off in local matches. But who cares? It makes Smash feel a lot more like a traditional fighting game while still keeping its unorthodox pieces.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It probably has to be, since it seems you can't turn it off in local matches. But who cares? It makes Smash feel a lot more like a traditional fighting game while still keeping its unorthodox pieces.

You can turn metered final smashes off in local multiplayer. We've seen the menu for this a few directs back.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You can turn metered final smashes off in local multiplayer. We've seen the menu for this a few directs back.

Ok well I was wrong. Good to know!

 

[Iron Maw]

Just saw the direct.

Overall they looked pretty reasonable to me. I was especially surprised at how slow they charged. Like you won't even be seeing them until most characters are well into kill range. Also a lot of them slow startup and you can easily kill yourself if you the movement based ones off an edge since the recovery is too long to come back from. Damage-wise I rarely saw one kill above 70%. Also thet don't seem to charge on their own, so people too Sakurai's statement too literally. All in all they seem better in practice than there theory to me, but we have to til more events and release to see ultimately were they square.

EDIT: Also seriously I hope it is not the case you won't be able to use them online, that's completely BS especially when they part of ruleset.

 

[S_B]

This was my primary problem with the Smash 4 competitive scene. Why was it two stocks?

One accidental SD and you're pretty much forfeiting the round and waiting until the next round to make up for it. I genuinely hope Ultimate goes back to three stock matches. Two is maddening.

It was because three stocks in SSB4 could drag matches out for a LONG time.

I don't think Ultimate will have this issue as you cannot spam airdodges when returning to the ledge, meaning overall TTK in Ultimate will be lower.

As for the topic, I don't think they will for a few reasons:

-Not all final smashes are created equal: Bowser's is an immediate get out of jail free card that allows him to escape any situation, but others aren't anywhere near as useful.

-Final smashes have no inherent risk to them: the character using it is invincible, unlike a lot of other fighters with "supers" where it's still very much possible to punish a whiffed super

-Tournament level play doesn't need "turnaround" mechanics: one of the key reasons SSB is such a great spectator sport is due to the fact that comebacks are still very much possible even when one player seems hopelessly down. Final smashes would ruin this aspect as these magnificent comebacks would wind up not feeling earned so much as the player just landed one hit instead of a series of solid reads.

 

[Izanagi97]

It was because three stocks in SSB4 could drag matches out for a LONG time.

I don't think Ultimate will have this issue as you cannot spam airdodges when returning to the ledge, meaning overall TTK in Ultimate will be lower.

That and getting hit with a powerful attack basically makes you go poof due to the way the knockback works

 

[DT Raw]

was pretty obvious before and its even more obvious now that these have no place in competitive

 

[Nintykid]

Eh... watch the Treehouse stuff, still needs more test, but it looks fine to me honestly

 

[SvartWolf]

Eh... watch the Treehouse stuff, still needs more test, but it looks fine to me honestly

dunno, i actually feel the exact opposite. after watching the treehouse gameplay.
feels like if they finlally charge it up, the game stalls between the guy that now have to land that one move, and teh guy that have to go full defensive in evading that one move.

it actually felt a lot like Play station all star :S...

(plus, can Daisy and peach final smash be dodged? if not is kinda broken DX)

 

[Nintykid]

dunno, i actually feel the exact opposite. after watching the treehouse gameplay.
feels like if they finlally charge it up, the game stalls between the guy that now have to land that one move, and teh guy that have to go full defensive in evading that one move.

it actually felt a lot like Play station all star :S...

(plus, can Daisy and peach final smash be dodged? if not is kinda broken DX)

It does mean that if they have a full meter they can lose it if not careful. Also seeing a lot of them, their damage, knockback and duration feel a lot worse than their normal smash ball variant.

Also Yes, Peach/Dasiy's FS can be avoided... by not touching the ground and staying far way from her, kinda like Jigglypuff's Sing. The closer you are to them, the more damage it does and longer your asleep for. Best bet is to hang on the ledge

I notice there is a small opportunity to dodge at the start up for FS, cause it just slows down time

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Should only be legal in Ryu / Ken / Mirror match up.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It does mean that if they have a full meter they can lose it if not careful. Also seeing a lot of them, their damage, knockback and duration feel a lot worse than their normal smash ball variant.

Also Yes, Peach/Dasiy's FS can be avoided... by not touching the ground and staying far way from her, kinda like Jigglypuff's Sing. The closer you are to them, the more damage it does and longer your asleep for. Best bet is to hang on the ledge

I notice there is a small opportunity to dodge at the start up for FS, cause it just slows down time

I think what most people are implying is that it’s whack. Even if it were to be “balanced”, it’s still whack.

In tournaments, spectators will go from:

“Hey did you see Falcon read the opponent teaching in from the forward throw with a down air spike, re grab, down throw into neutral air, up air, read the air dodge and sweet spotted a knee?!!”

To

“Hey did you see him press B?!!”

As others have said, the excitement of smash exists in its ability to make comebacks and entertaining unique combos. Implementing final smashes take away from the percussion band finess of the game and boils down game elements to a single common denomination. And, it’s not like Final Smashes differently in this game, they’re just auto KO’s that are undeniably busted.

Side event...I mean yeah this is dope but it’s not meant for seriously play.

 

[Iron Maw]

I think what most people are implying is that it’s whack. Even if it were to be “balanced”, it’s still whack.

In tournaments, spectators will go from:

“Hey did you see Falcon read the opponent teaching in from the forward throw with a down air spike, re grab, down throw into neutral air, up air, read the air dodge and sweet spotted a knee?!!”

To

“Hey did you see him press B?!!”

As others have said, the excitement of smash exists in its ability to make comebacks and entertaining unique combos. Implementing final smashes take away from the percussion band finess of the game and boils down game elements to a single common denomination. And, it’s not like Final Smashes differently in this game, they’re just auto KO’s that are undeniably busted.

Side event...I mean yeah this is dope but it’s not meant for seriously play.

Um dude did you really watch the Treeehouse? Most still died more to smashes and special moves than FS. In fact almost nothing really changed here other than fact you have extra oneshot move (that isn't guaranteed KO) which risks getting you killed. FS happened waay to infrequently for stock come down. It's not like we didn't have similair moves in Smash 4 like True Shryo that not only killed even earlier, weren't gated. At the end of most KOs in Smash come do to reads and setups not combos which few actually had.

Your comment can literally apply to Rage Arts which are comeback supers in Trekken 7, however not only did they work, it didn't t stop other methods of koing. You're sceanrio is not how people play fighting games.

 

[SvartWolf]

Um dude did you really watch the Treeehouse? Most still died more to smashes and special moves than FS. In fact almost nothing really changed here other than fact you have extra oneshot move (that isn't guaranteed KO) which risks getting you killed. FS happened waay to infrequently for stock come down. It's not like we didn't have similair moves in Smash 4 like True Shryo that not only killed even earlier, weren't gated. At the end of most KOs in Smash come do to reads and setups not combos which few actually had.

Your comment can literally apply to Rage Arts which are comeback supers in Trekken 7, however not only did they work, it didn't t stop other methods of koing. You're sceanrio is not how people play fighting games.

we obviously would need soe mfootage of pros, and see if they really can apply effective and interesting strategies. but for what i saw in teh treehouse, teh moment someone got one, smash bros stopped, and it turned into a game of tag for like, 15 seconds.

IMO that was literally Play station Battle Arena biggest design flaw, and ultimately what killed the game. at least in smash with FS on, you still can ko by ring out,

 

[blackghost]

they are out. now ot move back to sometihng that has a chance: stage morph.

ultimately the people that spoke up about the pace of play and the linear function of meter in the game are right. it works in other games because meter has other uses and supers are deisgned with balance in mind. these are not getting used.

 

[SvartWolf]

they are out. now ot move back to sometihng that has a chance: stage morph.

ultimately the people that spoke up about the pace of play and the linear function of meter in the game are right. it works in other games because meter has other uses and supers are deisgned with balance in mind. these are not getting used.

This... is not like i want No items, Fox only final destination. is that i felt it seriously disrupted teh flow of gameplay.

In fact, if Final Smashes NEED to be on competitive smash, i think i would even prefer teh actual smash ball method than this one.

Stage morph on teh other hand looks exciting as hell and could potentially open a whole door to tons of strategies. (I'm also hoping that dracula castle walls are low enough to avoid infinite combos so it can be considered legal :0)

 

[Iron Maw]

we obviously would need soe mfootage of pros, and see if they really can apply effective and interesting strategies. but for what i saw in teh treehouse, teh moment someone got one, smash bros stopped, and it turned into a game of tag for like, 15 seconds.

IMO that was literally Play station Battle Arena biggest design flaw, and ultimately what killed the game. at least in smash with FS on, you still can ko by ring out,

Yeah, I agree for most part. But at least on practical level so far it's not game killing monster of thing that's been fearmonged. Moreover they certainly don't build on their over time and too slow to charge to be so common. They don't disrupt the flow more anymore than have to be made aware of True Shoryu at 70% in Smash 4 or trying avoid getting thrown by Ness 100-120% at the edge. Or just Limit in general.

Smash has those situation a tons of times already. It's been far going HAM every percent.

 

[Nintykid]

we obviously would need soe mfootage of pros, and see if they really can apply effective and interesting strategies. but for what i saw in teh treehouse, teh moment someone got one, smash bros stopped, and it turned into a game of tag for like, 15 seconds.

IMO that was literally Play station Battle Arena biggest design flaw, and ultimately what killed the game. at least in smash with FS on, you still can ko by ring out,

No PSBA biggest flaw was that it was the that was the ONLY way to KO Opponents. Plus I really don't think they do enough damage or knockback untill very high into %

 

[Vulgun]

I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with an attack that charges up at an abysmal speed (requiring between 180% to 200% damage to charge fully, with or without natural progression), and would still require the player to get an opponent up to 80% to 90% to even guarantee a kill in the first place, most of the time. Only very few kill even remotely below that amount of damage, and they tend to be on the lighter characters in the game. Even then, they would also need to combo into them around 30% to 40% to make them successful, since otherwise, they're kind of easy to move out of the way of.

If your opponent happens to be at 0%, a Final Smash would be absolutely stupid to try to go for. So what's the next best option? Try to combo them with magnificent moves until 80% to 90%, by which not only would your Final Smash kill, but your Smash attacks or some of your other moves would kill, too--some more preferrable than a Final Smash, if need be.

--------------

You know what kind of compromise we could all go for? I've heard people call for it being a side event before, but I don't think that would do anyone any favors here. What I recommend as a compromise, just to make everyone happy, is that it becomes a third main event, simple as that. Three months of three main events, just to judge how Metered Singles would stack up to regular Singles and Doubles.

Sounds rather fair to me.

 

[Nintykid]

I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with an attack that charges up at an abysmal speed (requiring between 180% to 200% damage to charge fully, with or without natural progression), and would still require the player to get an opponent up to 80% to 90% to even guarantee a kill in the first place, most of the time. Only very few kill even remotely below that amount of damage, and they tend to be on the lighter characters in the game. Even then, they would also need to combo into them around 30% to 40% to make them successful, since otherwise, they're kind of easy to move out of the way of.

If your opponent happens to be at 0%, a Final Smash would be absolutely stupid to try to go for. So what's the next best option? Try to combo them with magnificent moves until 80% to 90%, by which not only would your Final Smash kill, but your Smash attacks or some of your other moves would kill, too--some more preferrable than a Final Smash, if need be.

--------------

You know what kind of compromise we could all go for? I've heard people call for it being a side event before, but I don't think that would do anyone any favors here. What I recommend as a compromise, just to make everyone happy, is that it becomes a third main event, simple as that. Three months of three main events, just to judge how Metered Singles would stack up to regular Singles and Doubles.

Sounds rather fair to me.

^^^^^^^^^
THIS is something I can get behind

 

[DarthEnderX]

This was my primary problem with the Smash 4 competitive scene. Why was it two stocks?

One accidental SD and you're pretty much forfeiting the round and waiting until the next round to make up for it. I genuinely hope Ultimate goes back to three stock matches. Two is maddening.

You know what would solve that? 3v3 Squad Strike.

I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with an attack that charges up at an abysmal speed (requiring between 180% to 200% damage to charge fully, with or without natural progression), and would still require the player to get an opponent up to 80% to 90% to even guarantee a kill in the first place, most of the time. Only very few kill even remotely below that amount of damage, and they tend to be on the lighter characters in the game. Even then, they would also need to combo into them around 30% to 40% to make them successful, since otherwise, they're kind of easy to move out of the way of.

If your opponent happens to be at 0%, a Final Smash would be absolutely stupid to try to go for. So what's the next best option? Try to combo them with magnificent moves until 80% to 90%, by which not only would your Final Smash kill, but your Smash attacks or some of your other moves would kill, too--some more preferrable than a Final Smash, if need be.

Forgive my ignorance, but is there some reason a FS can't just be good for building damage instead of only being of use if you can get a kill with it?

 

[SvartWolf]

No PSBA biggest flaw was that it was the that was the ONLY way to KO Opponents. Plus I really don't think they do enough damage or knockback untill very high into %

thats.... kinda what i said XD

plus.. what is very high %? 80%? thats... not that high really. and stuff is that a lot of them are fairly easy to land, or are like, super grabs... so looks like the oponent have to go full defensive to avoid them.

again.. actual footage with actual pros trying to actually win would give better results that what we saw on the threehouse.. but so far of what we saw? not a big fan.

Now bring that stage morrrphs!!!!

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Doubt they will be tourney legal since some Final Smashes are instant death while others are not.

 

[Gallerian]

You know what kind of compromise we could all go for? I've heard people call for it being a side event before, but I don't think that would do anyone any favors here. What I recommend as a compromise, just to make everyone happy, is that it becomes a third main event, simple as that. Three months of three main events, just to judge how Metered Singles would stack up to regular Singles and Doubles.

Sounds rather fair to me.

This is actually a very good idea. It'd be a way to test the waters without immediately shooting it down before things even have a chance to shine.

If it works, then it's an amazing way to add to the pro meta for some really exciting matches contained in their own event. If it doesn't, then we have two existing modes that are solid.

 

[blackghost]

I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with an attack that charges up at an abysmal speed (requiring between 180% to 200% damage to charge fully, with or without natural progression), and would still require the player to get an opponent up to 80% to 90% to even guarantee a kill in the first place, most of the time. Only very few kill even remotely below that amount of damage, and they tend to be on the lighter characters in the game. Even then, they would also need to combo into them around 30% to 40% to make them successful, since otherwise, they're kind of easy to move out of the way of.

If your opponent happens to be at 0%, a Final Smash would be absolutely stupid to try to go for. So what's the next best option? Try to combo them with magnificent moves until 80% to 90%, by which not only would your Final Smash kill, but your Smash attacks or some of your other moves would kill, too--some more preferrable than a Final Smash, if need be.

--------------

You know what kind of compromise we could all go for? I've heard people call for it being a side event before, but I don't think that would do anyone any favors here. What I recommend as a compromise, just to make everyone happy, is that it becomes a third main event, simple as that. Three months of three main events, just to judge how Metered Singles would stack up to regular Singles and Doubles.

Sounds rather fair to me.

question for you. i main Bayonetta. what are you gonna do with her? i can genuinely guarantee a kill at 0.
marth, roy, ken, ryu, and cloud can also kill at 0 with their FS.

 

[GUIGUI]

Doubt they will be tourney legal since some Final Smashes are instant death while others are not.

I think all FS that are instant death still require to snipe the opponent, so it balance it out.

Video to the direct here, as no one posted it. the very first match use Smash Meter :

Thing of note,as it has Incineroar, it might have the final build and THE FLASH METER DOES NOT APPEAR TO CHARGE IF YOU DO NOTHING any more. So there is that.

IMO, THe FS does not seems too disruptive and might become part of the gameplay.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I think all FS that are instant death still require to snipe the opponent, so it balance it out.

Video to the direct here, as no one posted it. the very first match use Smash Meter :

Thing of note,as it has Incineroar, it might have the final build and THE FLASH METER DOES NOT APPEAR TO CHARGE IF YOU DO NOTHING any more. So there is that.

IMO, THe FS does not seems too disruptive and might become part of the gameplay.

But do characters like Peach still have their Final Smashes where it puts opponents to sleep no matter where they are on the map?
Also, doesn't projectile spam build Final Smash meter?

 

[GUIGUI]

But do characters like Peach still have their Final Smashes where it puts opponents to sleep no matter where they are on the map?
Also, doesn't projectile spam build Final Smash meter?

We don't know the final smash of Peach yet, also, spamming can expose you to punish.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

We don't know the final smash of Peach yet, also, spamming can expose you to punish.

But if Peach does have the same Final Smash as she did, does that give her an unfair advantage?
Edit: Fair point about spamming being punishable nothing to retort there.

 

[GUIGUI]

We done't know yet, but most FS attack seems to have been retooled to fit the FS more. See Yoshi, or Little Mac. I wouldn't be surprised if Peach got her FS changed. I just hope that they rework Bayonetta's FS, otherwise, it's definitely out.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

We don't know the final smash of Peach yet, also, spamming can expose you to punish.

Except we know exactly what Daisy's final smash is: https://youtu.be/NzNNajp8a_A?t=132

Why this is even an ongoing debate is quite beyond me. Final Smashes have no consistency whatsoever. Some can be evaded, some can heal you, some can be much more useful on stage, some will turn the game into a game of evasion.

 

[GUIGUI]

Except we know exactly what Daisy's final smash is: https://youtu.be/NzNNajp8a_A?t=132

Why this is even an ongoing debate is quite beyond me. Final Smashes have no consistency whatsoever. Some can be evaded, some can heal you, some can be much more useful on stage, some will turn the game into a game of evasion.

Technically, all Daisy's FS does is give you a freeby. Unlike the former Peach FS, it doesn't allow to restore Health. It's the equivalent of getting a Broken Shield, minus the damage. Once you take the time to think about it, it's not that powerful and low % can easily survive it.

Also, about the Tree house direct, Stocked Match with Smash Meter start at 22:00, so you can see how it actually would look like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9qT_GURyI