Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

[Izanagi97]

I mean, items are also on by default. Does that mean we shouldn't play without items because it's not default?

Doing things just for tradition's sake is a little stubborn. Final Smashes are a part of each character's moveset, which is a little different from just being universal items. By themselves they can be played around and the main reason the smash community has avoided them in the past is because smash balls are random on principle and will grant advantages to a 'lucky' player.

Smash meter grants that advantage ina predictable and unified way across all characters. Like all super meters in other fighting games, it rewards you either for LANDING A HIT or TAKING A HIT, both of which are conditions that happen for reasons well within the control of both players. You are rewarded a lot more for landing hits than you are for taking them, therefore smash meter build is typically going to be a reward for proactive and aggressive play. Every serious Lucario player knows that trying to do poorly just for the purpose of building rage is a bad strategy, and this isn't much different.

Whether or not this mode will be accepted should really boil down to how balanced it actually is, not just because it's new on principle. We are given options, let's at least try them.

With Stamina mode becoming a standard mode, I personally would love to see some alternate meta evolve for stamina + smash meter matches.

That and with the custom rulesets, one can potentially have a ton of different tourney rulesets available.

 

[J0eyboi]

Oh please this isn't some impassable task. I've played games with more limited defensive options than Smash with full screen supers and I've dealt just by using the basic blocking or dodging.

So have I. This isn't the same.

Marth's FS slow and telegraph as hell and you will even know he use it when starts glowing.

Telegraphed as hell? Sure. Slow? It's like frame 15ish due to the slowdown. Not exactly fast, but fast enough.

You are more likely to die from Bayo or new Ryu in Ultimate when you get to 70% than somebody with an FS If properly balanced.

You're making a lot of assumptions there.

Furthermore smash was not seriously designed to handle moves like this than we wouldn't have things like KO Punch (which kill you at 35%) in the first place.

That's a **** comparison. KO Punch:

- doesn't go fullscreen

- can be knocked out of Mac

- is on a character who's extremely easy to kill

- is a massive amount weaker in the air

KO Punch has weaknesses that mean getting it isn't just a free stock for Mac if he plays right.

Also not like players in other fighting games don't get defensive when one gets metered super ready anyway. They similar options to wait powerful attacks too.

First of all, that's only true in some games. Second of all, that doesn't make it a good thing. Third, other fighting games have limited screen space that doesn't really allow for camping.

One other thing: Proofread. Please. I could hardly parse this.

 

[Iron Maw]

You're forgetting some key points though. You can play around WT like a counter, true sho is only terribly dangerous if ryu is within kill percent, KO punch is held back by mac's extremely polarizing weaknesses and the fact that he could lose it at a moment's notice if he messes up, and LCS now disappears in 15 seconds if you don't let it rip. You can't play around final smashes like a counter because a counter only works when you trigger it, whereas a final smash is completely controlled by your opponent. Final smashes don't require you to be at death's door to be amazing, and as far as we know it can't be knocked out of you via tumble or timeout.

While meter final smashes are gated, they don't share any of said weaknesses (as far as we know). The only thing holding them back is if a final smash is either bad, situational, or worse than exploitable, but that would just make players go to a character with a final smash that can be more easily exploited.

Also using your wish for having them as default but in reverse; Because they aren't default we shouldn't even be talking about this . But I'm not that kind of guy, discussion is fine, testing is fine, and If by some chance they do become the norm I'll happily eat my words and adjust to the meta like I always have since 64, but will you be able to do the same when they get banned like customs?

WT is a counter and yes it subjected to flaws of the other counters. But unlike you usual one the reward is disproportionately high in comparison to the norm. With WT it is possible to kill a character 0% if you caught them near a ledge and Dsamshed for example. When Bayo came out this was her most feared moved and wasn't until counterplay developed for it and balance adjustments did it become reasonable. But since the move couldn't be removed people were forced to adapt to it. Counterplay exist becasue players competitively when through trial and error to deal with it.

It's similar case with Limit Cross Slash, KO Punch and other powerful moves. While it is true we ultimately at this point know too little about metered FS, conceptually it already has some weaknesses we discern. They can already be dodged in their Smash Ball versions and since their now tied to resources that that everyone shares universal that's huge for their viability. This without touching upon any kind of tweaking going in which we know historically from Smash 4 tends to have substantial impact competitive scene. If the baalnce does not turn out to be enough I will happily accept they don't work competitively, but they need to treated tested as neutrally as possible.

So have I. This isn't the same.

I disagree. Sure Smash has own nanuces, but still shares and adheres to basic concepts and mechaincs of other fighters (teching, blocking, combos, special moves etc). That's no different than other game in genre, Blazblue for example is pretty much nothing like Street Fighter or Trekken outside stuff I mentioned above, but they have managed to incorporate Supers in their own way and them work without changing the main point of the basic gameplay. So Smash's own variant doesn't have to work exactly them to be functional. I see no reason why Sakurai can't do this either, it's not either or thing.

Telegraphed as hell? Sure. Slow? It's like frame 15ish due to the slowdown. Not exactly fast, but fast enough.

Top players can and have reacted to things that are faster. This not getting into what startup will look like in the final game or whether it still able to kill you at 20%.

You're making a lot of assumptions there.

That was intended to be more of comparison to how those moves worked in Smash 4 versus how metered FS might be balanced in SSBU. You're right that it's partly assumption, but I am going based on direct footage. I could be wrong FS might returning to killing at mid percents.

That's a **** comparison. KO Punch:

- doesn't go fullscreen

- can be knocked out of Mac

- is on a character who's extremely easy to kill

- is a massive amount weaker in the air

KO Punch has weaknesses that mean getting it isn't just a free stock for Mac if he plays right.

-Matters little if doesn't kill at ridiculous percents and can dodged.

-That just makes it bad in practical way.

-Not relevant. Mac being a subpar character doesn't change the fact that he can kill you at 35%.

-We don't know how individual metered FS work in the air or if their all doable then. Even then they can't be airdodged like KO Punch.

-If he hits above 20% it's a free stock. Empathsis on if which applies to any similar FS. We can only say that about Math's FS right now, and that is subject to change.

First of all, that's only true in some games. Second of all, that doesn't make it a good thing. Third, other fighting games have limited screen space that doesn't really allow for camping.

They have similar equivalent which is called turtling. Stuff like block strings are also a thing so there no need to be all over the stage. You can wait out offense in tons of fighters to achieve the same result. It's view not as being less competitive waiting for opportunity to poke holes in your opponent's assault or bait an attack. Pressuring and reacting to that pressure is huge part of fighting games. Moreover in the way metered FS you get much less meter from hitting than being hit so camping won't be very optimal in the first place. Even if you get an FS there is no guarantee it will kill and you only have one shot at before it need to built back up again. The are more like a reversal like Ultras in SFIV were.

Anyway, we are at empasse here arguing about some thing we won't see the final version for 4 months won't does much of anything.

 

[Flowen231]

WT is a counter and yes it subjected to flaws of the other counters. But unlike you usual one the reward is disproportionately high in comparison to the norm. With WT it is possible to kill a character 0% if you caught them near a ledge and Dsamshed for example. When Bayo came out this was her most feared moved and wasn't until counterplay developed for it and balance adjustments did it become reasonable. But since the move couldn't be removed people were forced to adapt to it. Counterplay exist becasue players competitively when through trial and error to deal with it.

It's similar case with Limit Cross Slash, KO Punch and other powerful moves. While it is true we ultimately at this point know too little about metered FS, conceptually it already has some weaknesses we discern. They can already be dodged in their Smash Ball versions and since their now tied to resources that that everyone shares universal that's huge for their viability. This without touching upon any kind of tweaking going in which we know historically from Smash 4 tends to have substantial impact competitive scene. If the baalnce does not turn out to be enough I will happily accept they don't work competitively, but they need to treated tested as neutrally as possible.
.

I can get behind that.

 

[Izanagi97]

We should probably wait till the game is out to find all the differences between the two types of final smashes

 

[J0eyboi]

I disagree. Sure Smash has own nanuces, but still shares and adheres to basic concepts and mechaincs of other fighters (teching, blocking, combos, special moves etc). That's no different than other game in genre, Blazblue for example is pretty much nothing like Street Fighter or Trekken outside stuff I mentioned above, but they have managed to incorporate Supers in their own way and them work without changing the main point of the basic gameplay. So Smash's own variant doesn't have to work exactly them to be functional. I see no reason why Sakurai can't do this either, it's not either or thing.

I don't need a lecture about the fighting game genre. I know. The reason it's not the same thing has nothing to do with Smash's mechanics. It's not the same thing because no other game is stupid enough to have unblockable fullscreen high-damage fully invulnerable super moves.

Top players can and have reacted to things that are faster. This not getting into what startup will look like in the final game or whether it still able to kill you at 20%.

First of all, no they haven't. Not in Sm4sh. Reaction times don't really get better than 8 frames, and Smash has 7 frames input delay. Anything faster is a read.

Second of all,

And sure, Marth's final smash is spotdodgeable on reaction

I know it's reactable. It has a super flash, of ****ing course it's reactable. That's not the point.

-Matters little if doesn't kill at ridiculous percents and can dodged.

It does kill at ridiculous percents, "weaker version" just means "does 60% damage"

-That just makes it bad in practical way.

You do realize that doesn't invalidate my point, right? The fact that you can knock KO Punch out of Mac gives it counterplay that metered Final Smashes don't have.

-Not relevant. Mac being a subpar character doesn't change the fact that he can kill you at 35%.

It can actually kill earlier than that, but

The point isn't that Mac is ****. Mac being easy to kill via edgeguarding is an intentional weakness built into the character. "Kills early but can die at any time" is basically Mac's high concept, so him getting a functional 0% kill move is justified.

-We don't know how individual metered FS work in the air or if their all doable then. Even then they can't be airdodged like KO Punch.

Again, based on the information currently available to us, metered Final Smashes are just regular Final Smashes that do 60% damage. There's no reason they wouldn't be air OK.

-If he hits above 20% it's a free stock. Empathsis on if which applies to any similar FS. We can only say that about Math's FS right now, and that is subject to change.

If he hits above 20% but below around 50% without getting it knocked out of him on a grounded opponent. It's not the same.

Seriously, please proofread.

They have similar equivalent which is called turtling. Stuff like block strings are also a thing so there no need to be all over the stage. You can wait out offense in tons of fighters to achieve the same result. It's view not as being less competitive waiting for opportunity to poke holes in your opponent's assault or bait an attack. Pressuring and reacting to that pressure is huge part of fighting games. Moreover in the way metered FS you get much less meter from hitting than being hit so camping won't be very optimal in the first place. Even if you get an FS there is no guarantee it will kill and you only have one shot at before it need to built back up again. The are more like a reversal like Ultras in SFIV were.

I could tell you all the ways in which camping and turtling aren't equivalent, but instead how about I just revert to point 2: The existence of turtling in other fighting games does not make turtling/camping desirable.

 

[Deus]

The simple fact of how every Final Smashes can be drastically different from one character to another with being fullscreen (or close to it) and others being quick and small but very lethal moves shows how much they weren't looking to balance these moves. These are stylish kills that allow you to see characters do some of their signature flashy moves. If they honestly were trying to balance these given their crazy nature it would be concerning, because in order to truly do that you would have to balance their movesets around their final smash. The FS meter is a fun way to play around with these flashy moves without the not-so-fun "break the smash ball minigame."

Think of every strong move that needs either a set up into it like a combo, baiting, reading your opponent. In Melee you're not going to just land a knee on most people who know how to play, the knee requires finesse, mindgames, taking advantage of bad DI from faster juggling moves or throws (these things especially to make the knee potentially lethal vs just hitting with it as well).

Here's another example of Melee skill and thought (its the game I know best so...yeah) It takes skill to correctly cover all the recovery options Fox has (and obviously isn't always possible), but when you can you have to use your kit of moves to cover certain areas with hitboxes and make sure other routes can quickly be answered with great timing. Or if you have Mario's FS ready you could just hit B instead as soon as he goes off stage. I would love to see the counter play for that.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Im ready for the first SSBU tournament in EVO where they will force Squad Strike and chargeable Final Smashes on the rules. A lot of people will complain, but it will be fun to watch, even if it ends being a one-time thing.
After all, it can't be worse than dancing Bayonettas on Smashville.

 

[Deus]

Most Final Smashes in this game can be easily blocked or avoided, they're even taking the time to weaken them when in meter mode.

You can say any move is easy to dodge or block if you really want to, and compared to normal movesets I would say that almost all of these are much harder to avoid or block when you compare them to other harder hitting moves, especially with no context, and then are examples like my off the stage example above. Yeah, final smashes being weaker with the meter makes sense because you're being giving them constantly and sounds like a change to make it more fun in casual play. Why would they showcase it in free for all if it was meant to be a competitive change? The video even says "If you're up for a party, try it out"

That's the thing, we won't know if they'll be good for competitive play or not. We have to actually try them first to develop counter-play.

The thing is that there is a huge enough community that if they somehow made FS meters balanced there's no chance it would slip under the radar.

Keep in mind, Smash 4's life was cut short due to the Wii U's death. But Sakurai and the team did do a decent job balancing the game in that time. Nearly every character felt viable in Smash 4, making it the most balanced game in the series. And with Ultimate, they've taken extra steps to accommodate for the competitive scene. Such as a new Training stage, pre-saved rule-sets, swapping the order of stage and character select screens, stage hazard toggle, and yes the Final Smash meter was made with the input of the competitive scene in mind.

Keep in mind that Project M was killed abruptly and still didn't have as big of separation between good and garbage like Smash 4 did. And it was done by far less people than Smash 4 and if you notice there isn't even an F tier for Project M. And saying every character in Smash 4 felt viable is just delusional.

I mean if the FS meter sounds fun to you, that's great, it's there to have fun with, just like items and stage hazards.

 

[boysilver400]

It shouldn't be. They're way too unbalanced. Some are OP like Ike's and Falcon', and others are garbage like Peach's and Jigglypuff's.

 

[jwillenn]

@ Banjo-Kazooie

Imagine the main 1v1 tournament sprinkled with flavors of rulesets throughout. I'd very much like to see that tested. I happen to be one who could appreciate several flavors within the same tournament. I'm down for the traditional, but would be down for Meter, Morph, and Stamina if all is balanced and good for gameplay. I don't need to see all of any particular ruleset throughout the main tournament, and I think there's a way to allow players a chance to compete while not being forced to one ruleset.

Enter Smash > Select Ruleset > Select Stage > Select Characters
That's the order towards starting a match.

So here we are at "Select Ruleset" with a very simple example.
[RS#1- Regular Ruleset]
[RS#2- w/Meter, Morph]

Two players are seated to play their set. They're now staring at the Rulesets Menu. They either agree to RS#2 by BOTH players having "thumbs up", or they immediately proceed to RS#1 without discussion if one or both players "thumb downed" RS#2 when it was highlighted. That was quick.

I like this, although there is one thing about it that I keep thinking about. There is an element of "bad luck" to this for players who are interested in RS#2 that is akin to having a tougher road in brackets than someone else. So is it a big deal? With what I've suggested, every player must prepare for tournaments with the understanding that they may not get to play a single set using Meter & Morph. Be prepared for Regular Rulesets, players. BUT IF THE DEMAND IS HIGH ENOUGH (which is the whole point of this idea as a way of experimenting and gauging interest in the first season or whatever), then there would at least be some chance for RS#2 enthusiasts to advance within the same tournament as players who advanced through sets under RS#1.

Again, I'm just saying I like this during the exploration phase. If the ultimate goal here is to utilize the new gameplay features to boost the attractiveness of Smash at tournament level, then we need to start thinking about how can we satisfy as many people as possible. From there, it's easy to eliminate this "one ruleset" line of thinking, especially with Team Ultimate showing us they're providing us with tools to eradicate that and go in a bold direction. I think this is the game that could/should break away from tradtiion that a single ruleset must be adhered to throughout the tournament, and I think that could make for something pretty exciting if handled properly.

 

[Deus]

@ Banjo-Kazooie

Imagine the main 1v1 tournament sprinkled with flavors of rulesets throughout. I'd very much like to see that tested. I happen to be one who could appreciate several flavors within the same tournament. I'm down for the traditional, but would be down for Meter, Morph, and Stamina if all is balanced and good for gameplay. I don't need to see all of any particular ruleset throughout the main tournament, and I think there's a way to allow players a chance to compete while not being forced to one ruleset.

Enter Smash > Select Ruleset > Select Stage > Select Characters
That's the order towards starting a match.

So here we are at "Select Ruleset" with a very simple example.
[RS#1- Regular Ruleset]
[RS#2- w/Meter, Morph]

Two players are seated to play their set. They're now staring at the Rulesets Menu. They either agree to RS#2 by BOTH players having "thumbs up", or they immediately proceed to RS#1 without discussion if one or both players "thumb downed" RS#2 when it was highlighted. That was quick.

I like this, although there is one thing about it that I keep thinking about. There is an element of "bad luck" to this for players who are interested in RS#2 that is akin to having a tougher road in brackets than someone else. So is it a big deal? With what I've suggested, every player must prepare for tournaments with the understanding that they may not get to play a single set using Meter & Morph. Be prepared for Regular Rulesets, players. BUT IF THE DEMAND IS HIGH ENOUGH (which is the whole point of this idea as a way of experimenting and gauging interest in the first season or whatever), then there would at least be some chance for RS#2 enthusiasts to advance within the same tournament as players who advanced through sets under RS#1.

Again, I'm just saying I like this during the exploration phase. If the ultimate goal here is to utilize the new gameplay features to boost the attractiveness of Smash at tournament level, then we need to start thinking about how can we satisfy as many people as possible. From there, it's easy to eliminate this "one ruleset" line of thinking, especially with Team Ultimate showing us they're providing us with tools to eradicate that and go in a bold direction. I think this is the game that could/should break away from tradtiion that a single ruleset must be adhered to throughout the tournament, and I think that could make for something pretty exciting if handled properly.

Do you understand how hard it is to try and get a semblance of balance with regular rulesets? How could they possible balance all these characters around insanely fundamentally different modes. Stamina mode has been in the game since Melee, it's not even remotely what the game was designed around and has never piqued any tournament interest. But if you think this could ever happened then bully for you. Do you make a habit of entering money into a tournament with a bunch of random rulesets the game wasn't balanced around and you haven't practiced because they make no sense to be in there? Should we throw items in as well?

I don't understand why people can't just be happy with the casual parts of the game being casual and the competitive ones being competitive. And the rules for competitive have been tweaked a lot over the years and different and different entries in the series, all in the interest of the best balance.

 

[jwillenn]

What does "how hard it is to balance" have to do with my suggestion under the condition balance isn't a problem in the final build? Do you think people are rooting for this stuff to be included in main tournaments under the condition it brings an unbalanced mess? Sitting around and wondering how hard it is to balance is not of my concern. Team Ultimate is on that job, a job that has not been completed. It being balanced IS a concern, but I prefer to be optimistic about that. We don't know Ultimate's "balance" because the game isn't finished yet.

 

[Deus]

What does "how hard it is to balance" have to do with my suggestion under the condition balance isn't a problem in the final build? Do you think people are rooting for this stuff to be included in main tournaments under the condition it brings an unbalanced mess? Sitting around and wondering how hard it is to balance is not of my concern. Team Ultimate is on that job, a job that has not been completed. It being balanced IS a concern, but I prefer to be optimistic about that. We don't know Ultimate's "balance" because the game isn't finished yet.

Because do you expect delvolpers to attempt to balance characters around every single game mode? Every single final smash when final smashes have never meant to be balanced. You're never going to see modes like Stamina in tournament because there's already nobody who has wanted to do that since it was a mode back in 2001. Do you even go to tournaments? Do you even know how the stage strike and character selection rules work in tournament? Do you understand what a competitive tournament is? You can play any mode all you like with whomever you like, but nobody in a tournament wants to play that. If they did it would have been done a long time ago. Why do you think people who pay to compete want to play watered down game modes or modes that just tilt things more towards luck rather than skill?

If you want to talk about new things that could potentially make the competitive scene more interesting why not talk the stage being able to switch midway through the match. That could open up a lot of interesting possibilities that aren't ridiculous as long as both stages are tournament legal. The biggest hurdle would be devising who gets to pick what based on if they won or lost the last round and would the loser of the last round be able to change one of the stages? Both stages? After they see who their opponent is playing? I don't know but it opens up a lot of counter pick potential.

 

[Izanagi97]

Honestly, at this point, anything's better than seeing the same **** at tourneys. I don't even play competitive (if only because I haven't owned a Nintendo console ever since my GameCube died) and just watch highlights and matches (I don't know if there is a scene near where I live since) and frankly, a little more variety wouldn't hurt (though I hope Omegas and Battlefield forms don't suffer blanket bans again because of music licensing issues)

 

[ChillySundance]

The simple fact of how every Final Smashes can be drastically different from one character to another with being fullscreen (or close to it) and others being quick and small but very lethal moves shows how much they weren't looking to balance these moves. These are stylish kills that allow you to see characters do some of their signature flashy moves. If they honestly were trying to balance these given their crazy nature it would be concerning, because in order to truly do that you would have to balance their movesets around their final smash. The FS meter is a fun way to play around with these flashy moves without the not-so-fun "break the smash ball minigame."

Think of every strong move that needs either a set up into it like a combo, baiting, reading your opponent. In Melee you're not going to just land a knee on most people who know how to play, the knee requires finesse, mindgames, taking advantage of bad DI from faster juggling moves or throws (these things especially to make the knee potentially lethal vs just hitting with it as well).

Here's another example of Melee skill and thought (its the game I know best so...yeah) It takes skill to correctly cover all the recovery options Fox has (and obviously isn't always possible), but when you can you have to use your kit of moves to cover certain areas with hitboxes and make sure other routes can quickly be answered with great timing. Or if you have Mario's FS ready you could just hit B instead as soon as he goes off stage. I would love to see the counter play for that.

How's that any different to supers in something like Marvel vs Capcom though? Super moves typically are fast and difficult to avoid. It's why they're dangerous and not available to a character at all times.

This whole thing about final smashes reducing the finesse of finishing an opponent doesn't hold up either, because you still have to EARN your final smash by hitting your opponent, which is the entire principle behind super moves in the first place. They are tools help you use to close out the fight as a reward for taking actions or surviving. You still have the entire match before the final smash bar fills for all that normal smash good stuff before a single high moment (which is still going to require positioning and reading your opponent if they aren't going to avoid it) and then back to the usual.

In order to 'just hit B' on an offstage opponent, you need to have your final smash and you need to have your opponent offstage. Both advantageous positions for the one using the final smash. They've built the meter so they should be able to close out the kill.

Also, nobody played stamina until now because it was a special mode and you can't apply stock to it and was frankly annoying to set up because of this. That's changed now.

 

[J0eyboi]

@ Banjo-Kazooie

Imagine the main 1v1 tournament sprinkled with flavors of rulesets throughout. I'd very much like to see that tested. I happen to be one who could appreciate several flavors within the same tournament. I'm down for the traditional, but would be down for Meter, Morph, and Stamina if all is balanced and good for gameplay. I don't need to see all of any particular ruleset throughout the main tournament, and I think there's a way to allow players a chance to compete while not being forced to one ruleset.

Enter Smash > Select Ruleset > Select Stage > Select Characters
That's the order towards starting a match.

So here we are at "Select Ruleset" with a very simple example.
[RS#1- Regular Ruleset]
[RS#2- w/Meter, Morph]

Two players are seated to play their set. They're now staring at the Rulesets Menu. They either agree to RS#2 by BOTH players having "thumbs up", or they immediately proceed to RS#1 without discussion if one or both players "thumb downed" RS#2 when it was highlighted. That was quick.

I like this, although there is one thing about it that I keep thinking about. There is an element of "bad luck" to this for players who are interested in RS#2 that is akin to having a tougher road in brackets than someone else. So is it a big deal? With what I've suggested, every player must prepare for tournaments with the understanding that they may not get to play a single set using Meter & Morph. Be prepared for Regular Rulesets, players. BUT IF THE DEMAND IS HIGH ENOUGH (which is the whole point of this idea as a way of experimenting and gauging interest in the first season or whatever), then there would at least be some chance for RS#2 enthusiasts to advance within the same tournament as players who advanced through sets under RS#1.

Again, I'm just saying I like this during the exploration phase. If the ultimate goal here is to utilize the new gameplay features to boost the attractiveness of Smash at tournament level, then we need to start thinking about how can we satisfy as many people as possible. From there, it's easy to eliminate this "one ruleset" line of thinking, especially with Team Ultimate showing us they're providing us with tools to eradicate that and go in a bold direction. I think this is the game that could/should break away from tradtiion that a single ruleset must be adhered to throughout the tournament, and I think that could make for something pretty exciting if handled properly.

So ignoring that this sounds like a terrible idea without doing any analysis, there is absolutely no situation in which this method of handling things is desirable. If the demand is high enough, you'll get assholes like me ruining your fun because I hate you, fun, life, and dying at 20. It would be better to just make FS meter the standard ruleset so I don't get the chance. If it isn't, the very niche situation where both players actually agree to it could just be covered by this wonderful little thing called the gentleman's clause, making this entire thing redundant.

Besides, no match in which both parties play to win will ever be played with final smash meter outside of dittos because gaining access to meter will always benefit one player's character(s) more than the other's, which means the other has no reason to agree to it. Because FS meter will never be played, no one will practice with it, creating a positive feedback loop of no testing occurring.

By the way, there's already more than one ruleset. Doubles exists, in case you forgot.

If you really want to test Final Smash meter, do it with side tourneys like a sane person. This is needlessly complex and wouldn't even work.

How's that any different to supers in something like Marvel vs Capcom though? Super moves typically are fast and difficult to avoid. It's why they're dangerous and not available to a character at all times.

Supers in MvC (and most fighting games) are blockable, and you can block them on reaction because of super flash. This is a vital part of the balance of these moves, to the point where that one time supers were unblockable on reaction due to a glitch, they completely centralized the meta of their game (I'm talking about Street Fighter Alpha 2, for the record). Most Final Smashes don't have this weakness.

Also, MvC in particular is kinda an awful example because MvC is a team game, and team games tend to have such high meter gain that that bit about being not available to a character at all times is a lot less true than you'd think.

This whole thing about final smashes reducing the finesse of finishing an opponent doesn't hold up either, because you still have to EARN your final smash by hitting your opponent

Missed the point by a country mile there. In Smash, hitting your opponent and killing your opponent are very different things, and final smash meter could very much reduce the finesse of killing for a lot of characters (Sheik comes to mind).

 

[chilledcalories]

There's no way in hell that this would ever be tournament legal

 

[Nintykid]

Honestly, I'd love it to be tournament legal, tbh

 

[Izanagi97]

Honestly, I'd love it to be tournament legal, tbh

Though it will take quite a bit of labbing (like how much weaker are meter burns, how many settings are specific to meter, will build up be like in the clips show, and is there an option where getting KO'd will drain meter... so many questions)

 

[Union of Darkness]

Little point in speculating at this stage. Even if they are all balanced I think issue is that some Final Smashes are just objectively better which could discourage even using certain characters.

 

[LucR]

Not if there are any insta-kills, which there seem to be (Giga Bowser and Marth(kinda))

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I’m not really in favor of Final Smashes being legal, but I just wanted to say you can spot dodge Marth’s final smash.

I wonder if the weakness of the move may lie in the distance you can travel with the move and the amount of time you can hit it, or if it’s punishable.

The lines are ambiguous at this point.

It would be a cool side event.

There’s a lot of cool side event stuff in Ultimate, actually.

 

[Izanagi97]

I’m not really in favor of Final Smashes being legal, but I just wanted to say you can spot dodge Marth’s final smash.

I wonder if the weakness of the move may lie in the distance you can travel with the move and the amount of time you can hit it, or if it’s punishable.

The lines are ambiguous at this point.

It would be a cool side event.

There’s a lot of cool side event stuff in Ultimate, actually.

Yeah, we don't know if Marth's Final smash has less range in meter mode because it was executed at point blank range.

Oh well, if Final Smash meter isn't allowed in competitive, it could always be turned on in an exhibition ruleset

 

[Armagon]

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1032286878387470337

Welp, there goes the dream. It was fun while it lasted by Mr.Sakurai himself struck the FS Meter with the ban hammer.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1032286878387470337

Welp, there goes the dream. It was fun while it lasted by Mr.Sakurai himself struck the FS Meter with the ban hammer.

Yep it charging over time kinda just murders anything with it, if had only relied on hits it'd have potentially worked.

Well at least it's a fun casual option.

 

[Nintykid]

Eh, People will find a way

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Why are we discarding it before we've even tried it?

Sakurai can say it wasn't meant for us, but we can try it anyway. Maybe it is suited to our purposes and we just don't know it yet.

Maybe it isn't, maybe it will indeed need to be tossed out... but let's at least try it. The option is there and should be explored.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Why are we discarding it before we've even tried it?

Sakurai can say it wasn't meant for us, but we can try it anyway. Maybe it is suited to our purposes and we just don't know it yet.

Maybe it isn't, maybe it will indeed need to be tossed out... but let's at least try it. The option is there and should be explored.

Because if it charges without being earned, it promotes campy play, and as we saw in the Brawl and to an extent the Smash 4 era, that provides longer and more boring matches.

 

[Nintykid]

I still think it's WAY too early to say that, We haven't seen it in a serious match yet

 

[Izanagi97]

I still think it's WAY too early to say that, We haven't seen it in a serious match yet

I mean hell, even with that, it should be tried out for some side events as a test

 

[GUIGUI]

Because if it charges without being earned, it promotes campy play, and as we saw in the Brawl and to an extent the Smash 4 era, that provides longer and more boring matches.

Uh? No, it doesn't. It's quite the opposite really. The fact that taking damage increase the FS meter make it that it atually encourage AGGRESSIVE gameplay. And it is still earned because landing hit also increase it and just taking hit without actually trying to fight is simply a sure way to lose, aura or FS meter or not.

 

[meleebrawler]

From what I've read, he said it charges "as you fight" which could mean anything, unlike "over time". Standing around in a taunt party probably isn't his definition of a fight.

 

[J0eyboi]

Why are we discarding it before we've even tried it?

Sakurai can say it wasn't meant for us, but we can try it anyway. Maybe it is suited to our purposes and we just don't know it yet.

Maybe it isn't, maybe it will indeed need to be tossed out... but let's at least try it. The option is there and should be explored.

Sure, but it's insanely unlikely to be legal. One of the most frequent concerns I've seen raised here is about balance, and Sakurai saying "this isn't suited for competitive play" probably means they don't plan for it to be balanced, which is a death sentence on its own.

Uh? No, it doesn't. It's quite the opposite really. The fact that taking damage increase the FS meter make it that it atually encourage AGGRESSIVE gameplay. And it is still earned because landing hit also increase it and just taking hit without actually trying to fight is simply a sure way to lose, aura or FS meter or not.

According to the Source tweet, it charges over time, meaning certain characters (not naming any names but Bayo knows who she is) will benefit immensely from running away the entire game.

Actually, how hasn't Bayo shut this entire discussion down yet? She's great at running away, has great disadvantage, can safely rack up damage and meter with Bullet Arts while running away, does good damage (and thus good meter gain) off every combo if she does get a hit, and her Final Smash is an unavoidable oneshot.

 

[Uffe]

Two stock HP Mode with Final Smash Meter on. This isn't my idea, but it would be interesting. I'd say put the Final Smash Meter in a side event.

 

[Flowen231]

Errr, welp. I'll be honest with you guys, after hearing that it charges itself over time I'd say that this is pretty much 100% banned lol. Before hearing that bit, I still thought that the chance of this being a thing in competitive play was next to impossible, but worth testing since so many people wanted it. But theres really no way to justify a self charging meter for a giant abusable attack with no downsides.

Right now, the way this mechanic currently is, I'd say that the idea of using it in competitive play is delusional at best. Feel free to use it against friends though, not everything has to be on a big stage to be enjoyed.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Sakurai killed this thread wit the articletoday

 

[Nintykid]

Not really cause we are still talking about it and will still don't know alot about it now.

 

[Flowen231]

We know enough to say that it isn't going to happen in competitive play unless it gets a major rework lol.

 

[Nintykid]

Didn't they already rework most of them enough tho? I mean most of the transformation FS have been removed and replaced with cinematic FS, which can be avoided if done right.
Even Bayo's FS, needs to be hit with a confirm in order to work. And it's probably the only one you can actually block with a shield and the WT prolongs rolls and airdodges, futher wasting it's time