Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

GUIGUI

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Except we also have to bring down a notch or two the people that want to start doing things without putting much tought on them because of how novel them might be. For example, I was a pro-customs when smash 4, everyone told me to put my feet on the ground but I gave no ****s. After I myself tried to logistics and all the work that had to be put behind them, I saw how optimisticly naive I was being.
with all due respet, THIS WAS the right thing to do. Actuall trying out to see if it can work or not, push the experiment to the end and see if it atually work or not, see if it make things better or not. I honestly think the Smash Meter should go through the same treatment.

Mind you forthe customs move, you hit the additional issue of setting up the moves for every characters, which can be quite the time muncher, but in the end the real issues with customs is that it resulted in something way too broken. and it couldn't have been known without people like you actually trying it out. Even if the result was a negative, it was a good thing to do.

The same dedication of experiment should be tired out for the FS Meter. It is only this way we will be able to see ifit is effectively viable or not.
Also what's exciting about two characters using the same super move over and over?
I don't know, ask other fighting game communities..
 
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DeadlyLampshade

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'Straya, mate.
My opinion? FS Meter might not make it too far in competitive smash, but I'm hopeful that it can just be another format. We can continue to have tournaments with normal 3 stock matches have others that allows the FS Meter. And even still, I will enjoy the heck out of this stuff.
 
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Bayopuff

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Definitely not, tournaments are conservative and don't really innovate too much. They'll probably stick with 2-stock 5-minute battles as always. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just how things are.
 

Kingshadow3

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Alas. Meter FS will not make it's way to tournaments. Some FS are just unfair compared to some others. *Cough* :ultbayonetta: I'm looking at you. *Cough*
 
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GUIGUI

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Definitely not, tournaments are conservative and don't really innovate too much. They'll probably stick with 2-stock 5-minute battles as always. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just how things are.
I am quite sure the accpeted standard for Ultimate so far is 3 stocks 6 minutes. Incidentaly, Esam has said he'd really want to see FS implemented if tournaments.
 

Bayopuff

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I am quite sure the accpeted standard for Ultimate so far is 3 stocks 6 minutes. Incidentaly, Esam has said he'd really want to see FS implemented if tournaments.
Oh, I didn't know that! I kind of prefer it to 2-stock 5-min actually!

I'm against that, tournaments are about skill, whoever gets the smash ball is just simply lucky. Thankfully, we all know that it would never happen anyways.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I probably should've mentioned this earlier, but this new mechanic could explain why the Final Smash fighters are no longer fully playable, and why Fox and Falco have retired their Landmasters.
 

Iron Maw

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I say no simply because of this age old reason.

Marth gets his final smash filled you are at 130% and die to his fsmash. You respawn he then hits you with his final smash. Boom 2 stocks gone in potetially less then 5 secs.

Even lessened some final smashs will still kill no matter the percent.

They just simply are not balanced. Its a shame but its the truth.

Marth can effectively already do this with a tipper which is much easier to land than his high startup FS.

I get that most people are worried about this mainly due to Marth and potenially Bayo, but there is too much weight being put on him here especially in the light of the reasonable versions of other characters FSM versions. Mario, Samus and Lucas were all basically 1HKOs too and much worse than his. There is not much we can even gather from a 3 secs part about that move on a whole, like was that bad DI on Lucas' player part? What did start up look like and does it go full screen is just a short slash? Plus balance is still undergoing adjustment even now and the game won't be released until 4 months so who knows if it will still be that way? This not even getting into whether metered FS can be blocked to further separate them from their Smash Ball counterparts.

We'll have to see how imbalanced the meter versions actually are in the final game. I mean, of course, we can also always suggest balance patches for meter FS to the developers too.
This also important to keep in mind. Smash 4 is essentially a different game after several balance patches went into a effect to address complaints players had various things.

Oh, I didn't know that! I kind of prefer it to 2-stock 5-min actually!

I'm against that, tournaments are about skill, whoever gets the smash ball is just simply lucky. Thankfully, we all know that it would never happen anyways.
This one of reason why people such myself wanted Metered FS. It basically removes the random disruptive element that the Smash Ball brings by making it a predictable resource and doesn't limit access to FS to the person who has ball at the time. The team has taken things a step further and nerfed the damage and duration of the moves plus whatever else. It also helps that m,st of FS are homogenized now. Issues with Marth aside time will tell if these changes are enough to get the ball roiling into making them a legal part of competitive play.
 
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Bayopuff

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This one of reason why people such myself wanted Metered FS. It basically removes the random disruptive element that the Smash Ball brings by making it a predictable resource and doesn't limit access to FS to the person who has ball at the time. The team has taken things a step further and nerfed the damage and duration of the moves plus whatever else. It also helps that m,st of FS are homogenized now. Issues with Marth aside time will tell if these changes are enough to get the ball roiling into making them a legal part of competitive play.
I was talking about the smash ball, not the meter. (My mistake, I was being off-topic)

About the meter, I'm thinking it could be a very enjoyable add-on to tournaments, as its FS doesn't do as much damage as the Smash Ball's, and actually getting the FS mostly comes down to skill, which I'm all for!
 
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You guys are spending an awful lot of time and energy typing out essays on a thing about which we have no details.

I think most people aren't against Super Moves in Smash, but the meter has to be balanced correctly. There are very few details to discuss. All we know right now is Marth's seems really strong in the current build, it persists after death in the current build, they're "weaker" (whatever that even means), and they build from taking damage at the moment.

There aren't really any conclusions to draw at this time. If they work, great. If they don't, Smash has been played for a very long time without them and will continue to be fine without them.
 
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Vulgun

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You know, I can and will still suggest the idea that if we don't completely legalize Final Smash meters as a part of the core Singles experience, the best alternative could be to branch off Singles into two events, thus creating a third main event for tournaments to run (and spectators to see).

Singles (Final Smashes OFF)
Singles (Final Smashes ON)
Doubles

Easy, efficient, and would make going to tournaments much more interesting for many different players and spectators.

I might make a separate thread expanding on this idea further.
 

Untouch

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Looking back at the video, I see two important things.
  1. Mario doesn't get meter from fireball damage, or with the cape. Only by getting hit by WFT. It doesn't look like WFT gets any meter for that either though. If i was to guess, this is just for demonstration reasons.
  2. Meter appears to go up over time. I don't know the rate but it seems pretty slow.
 
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Let's at least try the Metered Final Smashes. It's an option that was clearly included to appeal to us, and we owe it to ourselves to see if they make the game better. Maybe they don't. In which case, fine; we give them the boot and go back to how things were.

Maybe they DO make the game better.

While we're at it, let's try Hungrybox's idea. Maybe the 'one stock per character but you get multiple characters' thing would encourage character diversity and help cut down on the whole 'one or two dominant characters sap the fun out of the game' problem.

These options are sitting right here in front of us and might lead to more fun. I strongly encourage trying these out.
 

DiasFlac

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If they can be blocked, spot dodged and have a time limit to be used I wouldnt mind using and seeing them in competitive play. Smash isnt like every other fighting game tho. Supers can be punished if blocked or whiffed in every fighting game Ive played but Smash there is no risk but we need more info on final smash meters.
 
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GUIGUI

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I have been wondering, but let's say that instead of damage, the FS meter would only progress like this
-first does nothing to the meter
-second consecutive hit increase the meter
-So doe the third
-and so on
-the meter fill more if you vary the attacks
-the chain is rest when you get hit
-the chain is reset when you use shield
-the chain is reset when you dodge or air-dodge
-the chain is reset when you wait too long between hits (like 3 seconds)
-when the chain is reset, you have to start over step one to keep filling the meter
-Nothing else fill the FS meter

with those kind of conditions, would it encourage aggressive gameplay, or on the contrary, would it encourage camping to prevent the opponent from chaining and preserve your own chain?
 

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tskidless

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Personally I do not think that Meter Smashes will be legal, but we do need more info on it before we jump to conclusions. Here is my two cents on the matter.

First and foremost even if they were nerfed some Final Smashes are still incredibly strong, everyone has already cited Marth's, but other characters like Ganondorf, Falcon, and that's not even getting into characters like Peach and G&W which could end up getting other characters KO'd at early percents due to how they work. To add to this most characters can combo into them as well, and some are just completely mindless and the game does the work for you. Even some of the worst Final Smashes like Mario, Ness, and Lucas, still have a use with gimping / edgeguarding. That's not getting into how random a few Final Smashes are.
 

j.method()

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The smash meter is worth considering, but we just have to analyze it more and stop assuming they are too good.
Final smashes aren't going to be balanced between characters, but that's ok. Projectiles aren't balanced between characters and that's just a small part of the differences in characters.
Also we don't even know how good the meter final smashes are.
Lucas, Mario and Samus didn't KO anyone with theirs.
Then there is Marth that did, but what if...
1. Marth had a smash ball final smash (it looks like they had final smashes from the beginning)
2. Lucas had just finished using a final smash and could have been susceptible to increased knock back (Marth also seems to take more damage from Samus's final smash, but didn't seem to have increased knock back, so maybe not)
3. They further Nerf Marth's final smash before release.

Side note for Bayonetta fear, it could activate like standard witch time instead of the screen version.
 

noahk777

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Lads, you realise that we literally don't know how their balanced yet? The game isn't out yet, Marth killing Lucas at 20% isn't nessessarily how it'll be on release. In fact, for me that confirms that they're still working on balancing them.

You don't know how nerfed they will be. You don't know how quickly they charge. You don't know (I don't think) whether it carries over between stocks. You don't know if their are more ways to block/dodge and punish them on charge.

Wait until we can actually play around with it before you decide.
 

Diddy Kong

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It will be a real shame if there is never a tournament that at least TRIES it out to check balance. If it truly is unbalanced after numerous tests, then ban it totally.
They also tried it with Customs, so I bet they will at least try to make it work. Once.
 

Nintykid

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To me this is just the Smash community being so... close minded again. Especially if we are four months away from a game that is still in development that is subject to change anything they showed us.
 

tskidless

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Captain Falcon need to aim and target his opponent if he want to trigger his final Smash. His blue Falcon is actually dogeable.
Falcon can probably combo into it with an up air. A lot of other characters will probably be able to combo into their Final Smashes as well.
 

Dario64

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I would totally be championing this idea. However im afraid some Final Smashes are way more powerful then others (some of them even One-Hit:ultmarth::ultlucina:)
 
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I would totally be championing this idea. However im afraid some Final Smashes are way more powerful then others (some of them even One-Hit:ultmarth::ultlucina:)
This isnt a valid argument. Some characters have better jabs than others. Same with smash attacks.
Character differences create a fun game. While there are outliers this inclusion in compitive play lives or dies based on the process of gaining meter and the communities feelings towards a new mechanic. conservative mindset always wins and this mechanic also is way more out there than stage morphing imo.

I also think im against fs meter because my main will be hated even more if they are legal. So no thanks.
 
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Xiammes

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Like many others are saying it needs to be tested, it will probably be banned right out of the gate for people looking for the core experience, but there will be side events and communities testing these rules. Ultimately we will play with what ever is more fun in the competitive sense, items are fun but are obnoxious in competitive landscape. A lot of final smashes seemed to have been reworked with the meter in mind, we no longer have transformations or controllable final smashes, which were the strongest and most useful final smashes. It also depends on how fast they build up, if you can only reasonable get it once or twice a in 3/4 stock match, then instead of getting a instant ko, they could be used to get a kill confirm. If the competitive landscape centers around the meter the same way the competitive landscape would center around items if they were legal, then it will be banned.

On a side not, I can see the meter being a staple of the stocked stamina mode, which I am very interested in trying out.
 
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C-G

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I can't say I'm well versed in the thread creation of these forums, but for this question, would a poll be better? A lot of posters are echoing opinions at the moment and generally fall into a few camps

1) No, I think FS's are too powerful in 1v1
2) No, I think it will be too imbalanced between fighters
3) No, I think we'll get Final Smashes too much
4) Maybe, we'd need to test it first
5) Sure, I'd love the idea
 

Iron Maw

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Falcon can probably combo into it with an up air. A lot of other characters will probably be able to combo into their Final Smashes as well.
That's perfectly fine. It means you need to hit confirm them otherwise they rarely ever hit a serious player outside of a read. That's standard in fighting games. Any FS can be tweaked and reworked to be weaker. The devs created those moves and know they work in the first place.
 

SHSL Jedi

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before debating whether some are too strong or not we need to look at and confirm how meter is built and how long it takes.
Hopefully you can’t just gain meter by camping or else it’ll be very slow and campy trying to play 1 v 1 with meter.
 

Tiberious

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And this is why the Smash tournament scene will forever be considered an absolute joke. For years, I've been hearing "hey, if we could get a Final Smash meter, we'd use it!"

And Sakurai's like, "Okay guys, here's your FS meter, and they're less powerful too!"

And now? You're all "Nah we can't use it, it's too broken," when we're still T-minus 4 months on having any actual, concrete info.

Keep playing "No Items, Bayo Only, Omega Stage" and proving people right...
 

Zeekfox

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Sure, custom moves proved to be a flawed idea. Can't exactly fault the community for trying. It was a fresh idea that helped out characters like Ganondorf and Palutena. It just made other characters like the Villager OP.
Custom moves were pretty cool. The problem wasn't in the balance. The major problem was in tournament setups. Not only did all the customs have to be unlocked to be fair, but the sets had to be pre-loaded. If there was an easy way to unlock all customs (like an affordable coin purchase, something all used Smash saves would have plenty of), plus the ability to pick each move (instead of a set) from character select, it could have worked out just fine.

The minor problem was, "This isn't Melee, so I don't like it." A vocal minority of the Smash community always objects to change, which is why you get so many quick no's to the question of metered Final Smashes. But the more considerate majority is the type that got the inclusion of "hazards off" in Ultimate, a suggestion that should add a lot more stage variety to competitive play.

I like the idea of Final Smashes. The problem before was that the Smash Ball was a terrible implementation for competitive play. Fun for parties, the Smash Ball often distracted from the actual fight, plus the RNG of which hit gets it, where the ball went, etc. Making it metered may change gameplay, but it's not RNG and it's not imbalanced towards characters with higher mobility. And if games start ending too fast, play with a higher stock count. And really, considering the probable buff to the edgeguard game (harder to sweetspot the ledge, further blast zones not as easy for every single character to recover from, no more 5x air dodge into invulnerable up+B), I can't imagine the game will be played with just 2 stocks anyway. It will likely be at least 3, but we'll have to see how the offense vs defense meta evolves as the game is learned after release.
 
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