Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

[Arcadenik]

I remember KumaOso used to suggest Final Smash Meter years ago and Smashchu used to say it would be a bad idea.

 

[Flowen231]

Bayo's FS does not hit confirm, it just activates. You can see it yourself in the invitational unless they've changed it since then. Also the thing about avoiding a final smash, it's been discussed at length in the topic already.

You have to consider that only characters with abuse-able final smashes will be used, good players will excel in landing their final smashes moreso than people will be able to dodge them, whoever has an active final smash has an overwhelming advantage which will feed into the second point of forcing a situation where the final smash will land, if two players have the final smash online at the same time the game will slow to a crawl (more so than the situations where players run away just to let the meter build) because nobody wants to get hit by a move that will lead into a fs, and nobody wants to throw something out just to be punished by a fs with their invincible startup, and they lack any weaknesses that other strong meter moves have.

You combine all that with the ability to just run away and get your smash on for free, and they have absolutely no place in competitive play. That's really all there is to it. After Sakurai's tweet all infinitesimal chances of this being tournament legal have flown out the window aside from random side events and friendly matches.

 

[GUIGUI]

According to the Source tweet, it charges over time, meaning certain characters (not naming any names but Bayo knows who she is) will benefit immensely from running away the entire game.

Errr, welp. I'll be honest with you guys, after hearing that it charges itself over time I'd say that this is pretty much 100% banned lol.

You combine all that with the ability to just run away and get your smash on for free,

We know for a fact this false. at least in the build we have seen presented. The analysis of it has shown it only charge when you deal or receive damage. It's probably a bad translation, or a bad way of saying "as you fight each other".

As for Bayo, we know she'll get a nerf. And the nerfed FS might require an higher percentage.

 

[Flowen231]

We know for a fact this false. at least in the build we have seen presented. a deep analysis has showed it only charge when you deal or receive damage. It's probably a bad transmation, or a bad way of saying "as you fight each other".

As for Bayo, we know she'll get a nerf. And the nerfed FS might require an higher percentage.

I'm very skeptical about bad translations in today's day and age. There are plenty of bilingual fans in this community, there are quite a few japanese players in this community (none of whom have said anything to the contrary), and this was translated by source gaming. They do tons of translations and they're known for it. I highly, highly doubt that it was translated incorrectly.

This is Sakurai's word as translated by a well known group that translates gaming news, if you think it's false, show us your proof.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So, we now have some strong hypothetical arguments against Metered Final Smash. I'm sympathetic to those arguments. However, they are arguments constructed in a vacuum; we do not have the game yet.

I still want us to test Metered FS. The most likely result is the predictions of a negative impact on play are correct and will bear out in actual play, but then we'll truly know. We won't be guessing. We'll have observations to back up the conclusion and show it is correct.

 

[Nintykid]

So, we now have some strong hypothetical arguments against Metered Final Smash. I'm sympathetic to those arguments. However, they are arguments constructed in a vacuum; we do not have the game yet.

I still want us to test Metered FS. The most likely result is the predictions of a negative impact on play are correct and will bear out in actual play, but then we'll truly know. We won't be guessing. We'll have observations to back up the conclusion and show it is correct.

Yeah this^^
That the main issue I have with this is that we are throwing it out the window BEFORE we even test them out then we can rule them out.

 

[Deleted member]

Even Sakurai thinks it's meant for casual play.

Final Smash Meter You can also turn on the Final Smash Meter, which charges over time (by default, this function is set to “off”). In most fighting games, there’s usually a gauge that when full allows the player to perform some kind of finishing blow or a super combo – the Final Smash Meter was meant to imitate that. It can cause the match to unfold in a pretty exciting way, so it’s probably more suited for parties and the like than serious matches.

 

[blackghost]

keef has put out a video on it and he wondered why they should be off in smash when they are in other games. this is a flawed argument and question and demonstrates a lack of understanding on how other fighting games work in comparison to smash.

in other games enter is a resource to be used for enhanced offensive options, defensive options, and movement options. rarely is it correct to use meter for super moves (unless you are playing dbfz where meter is granted like candy). Meter is ultimate will just be a waiting game and people eventually will just see it like they do rage. they will complain hate and act like it alone is the reason they lost., due to the toxicity of this community and the proven fact this community cannot adapt. id not support final smash meter in serious play. i'd support stage morphing easily.

even if characters like bayo and MANY others have it toned down, at what percentage are people going to be ok dying? supers in other games can do upwards of 33 percent of a life bar. so you ok dying to a hut confirm at 50 percent? 70 percent? what is the line?

 

[J0eyboi]

keef has put out a video on it and he wondered why they should be off in smash when they are in other games. this is a flawed argument and question and demonstrates a lack of understanding on how other fighting games work in comparison to smash.

Link?

in other games enter

Typo

is a resource to be used for enhanced offensive options, defensive options, and movement options. rarely is it correct to use meter for super moves (unless you are playing dbfz where meter is granted like candy).

Even in DBFZ, meter is used on EX moves and vanish (especially vanish) just as often as on supers.

Oh, and before anyone mentions SF4 or Tekken 7, Tekken 7 has Rage Drives, which are powerful neutral tools and are used much more often than Rage Arts, and Ultra moves in SF4 are generally considered a bad mechanic.

Meter is ultimate will just be a waiting game and people eventually will just see it like they do rage. they will complain hate and act like it alone is the reason they lost., due to the toxicity of this community and the proven fact this community cannot adapt. id not support final smash meter in serious play. i'd support stage morphing easily.

Stage morphing is unlikely to be legal as well, solely because stages that transform have historically been janky as hell.

 

[GUIGUI]

Link?

 

[blackghost]

Link?



Stage morphing is unlikely to be legal as well, solely because stages that transform have historically been janky as hell.

i dont want to side track the thread but morphing stages that transform havent really had issues with the stage itself since melee pokemon stadium. ussually there are other elements like water or hitboxes. but the stage morphing discussion is a lot closer than final smashes are. we couldnt even do custom moves now people want to have final smashes?? thats funny. its not happening.

 

[Kero the Invincible]

I'm sure they'll try it. Someone has to.

Will it stick, is the question, and I think the answer is no. Competitive Smash is practically allergic to non-standard features, and there are some good reasons for it. TOs don't want to risk their tournament with added complications or potentially "jank" features, and pro players don't want another match-up or stage consideration to think about on the way to winning, so even Stage Morph might not make it.

I don't remember exactly, but didn't AeroLink win ONE tourney as Custom Palutena, and then every other tournament redacted the option?

 

[J0eyboi]

i dont want to side track the thread but morphing stages that transform havent really had issues with the stage itself since melee pokemon stadium. ussually there are other elements like water or hitboxes. but the stage morphing discussion is a lot closer than final smashes are. we couldnt even do custom moves now people want to have final smashes?? thats funny. its not happening.

Spoiler: don't want to derail the thread so I'm spoilering this

I agree about it being more likely than final smashes, but stage morphing jank is in every game, from the freakishly low upper blast zone during Delfino transformations to grab dragdowns on Castle Siege to Brawl Bridge of Eldin jank to Lylat if you count that (I don't) and probably much more. I think most of the Sm4sh original stages were relatively jank-free, but with something like 20,000 possible transformations, I don't expect the same of morphs. This is really one of the cases where we just have to wait till the game comes out, though.

I'm sure they'll try it. Someone has to.

Will it stick, is the question, and I think the answer is no. Competitive Smash is practically allergic to non-standard features, and there are some good reasons for it. TOs don't want to risk their tournament with added complications or potentially "jank" features, and pro players don't want another match-up or stage consideration to think about on the way to winning, so even Stage Morph might not make it.

I don't remember exactly, but didn't AeroLink win ONE tourney as Custom Palutena, and then every other tournament redacted the option?

I don't know about custom Palu, but I do know that Villager stalling at EVO 2015 was a major part of customs being banned despite only like 3 Villys making top 64. As a general rule, if something's legality is up for debate and it can be camped with, it will be banned. Characters are the only exception, and even then MK almost was.

 

[Iron Maw]

From what I've read, he said it charges "as you fight" which could mean anything, unlike "over time". Standing around in a taunt party probably isn't his definition of a fight.

I really hope this is the case.

Gaining meter by taking damage and getting hits in is fine becasue both of these actions require players to do something and have risks associated with it. Making better suited for causal play is also pretty disappointing and rather redundant since Smash Ball already works for this and they aren't waterdown versions of existing moves. Still the community should still give a test at least to put things to rest.


EDIT:

keef has put out a video on it and he wondered why they should be off in smash when they are in other games. this is a flawed argument and question and demonstrates a lack of understanding on how other fighting games work in comparison to smash.

in other games enter is a resource to be used for enhanced offensive options, defensive options, and movement options. rarely is it correct to use meter for super moves (unless you are playing dbfz where meter is granted like candy). Meter is ultimate will just be a waiting game and people eventually will just see it like they do rage. they will complain hate and act like it alone is the reason they lost., due to the toxicity of this community and the proven fact this community cannot adapt. id not support final smash meter in serious play. i'd support stage morphing easily.

even if characters like bayo and MANY others have it toned down, at what percentage are people going to be ok dying? supers in other games can do upwards of 33 percent of a life bar. so you ok dying to a hut confirm at 50 percent? 70 percent? what is the line?

People need to stop exaggerating this. Not only are Supers used differently tons of FGs, but there are plenty that use it exact just for Supers. Some fighters even have separate bar for EX or whether independent for Supers. Universally, Supers most damaging moves in the game and top players lab hours in combing into and are extremely common in high levels of play in most Fighters. Supers are not just damage moves some even used to power up attributes of characters, like Gulity Gear's Sol Badguy's Dragon Install. Smash already does similiar with FS like Super Sonic.

Regardless of whether FS and meters will ever be part of the competitive scene they aren't really different most FGs and this won't be what stops them from being included. It's entirely going to come down to how the meter is built and whether there are instant KO moves or not.

Even Bayo's global FS isn't gonna be much of an issue if it just lasts 3 secs she has to be near you and you can't be blocking to do anything.

 

[meleebrawler]

Doesn't Darkstalkers also have a meter that builds over time, and that works fine?

 

[Iron Maw]

Doesn't Darkstalkers also have a meter that builds over time, and that works fine?

I've never played Darkstalker so I had no idea. Blazblue has one character that builds meter over time, so yeah it's not necessary less competitive which I agree depending on the game but I feel it is gonna make FS meter a much harder sell.

 

[Nintykid]

Sakurai said "while you fight", not "over time". "while you fight" may sound very vague and it could mean over time or when you both fighting over time IDK. Also said it "might be better suited for casual play" meaning it is a possibility but he is unsure. He never stated it was better suited for casual play: he just said it may be because of the more hectic gameplay.

Also When I talked about Bayo Smash, yes the GWT just activates, but you still need to do some damage to fill the gauge and hit with KB to get the full extent of her Final Smash. You can actually block the normal move and when you spotdodge or airdodge, the GWT still prolong the dodge, futher wasting the FS

 

[Untouch]

Sakurai said "while you fight", not "over time". "while you fight" may sound very vague and it could mean over time or when you both fighting over time IDK. Also said it "might be better suited for casual play" meaning it is a possibility but he is unsure. He never stated it was better suited for casual play: he just said it may be because of the more hectic gameplay.

It goes up over time, you can see in the direct, this isn't just translation.


Also you can't compare smash to most fighting games, in most fighting games you cannot camp from your opponent, you're on a flat field and there's nowhere you can run.

 

[ChillySundance]

It goes up over time, you can see in the direct, this isn't just translation.


Also you can't compare smash to most fighting games, in most fighting games you cannot camp from your opponent, you're on a flat field and there's nowhere you can run.

In most other fighting games, characters have more moves to utilize as zoning tools and playing keepaway thanks to special and situational moves being inputs, which effectively boils down to the same thing. There are characters who's entire playstyles revolve around zoning and cheesing.

 

[Untouch]

Here's proof that it charges over time. No he wasn't dealing damage at this point by the way.

 

[J0eyboi]

People need to stop exaggerating this. Not only are Supers used differently tons of FGs, but there are plenty that use it exact just for Supers.

Really? Like what? I can think of plenty of examples, but all of them have factors that drastically change how they're used compared to Final Smashes.

Smash already does similiar with FS like Super Sonic.

Which was changed. Transformation final smashes don't exist anymore in Ulti. Also, Dragon Install doesn't make Sol literally invincible.

Even Bayo's global FS isn't gonna be much of an issue if it just lasts 3 secs she has to be near you and you can't be blocking to do anything.

First of all, what do you honestly think are the chances that Bayo's final smash will be nerfed that drastically?

Second of all, even if it does last that little time, all she has to do is confirm into it. It's slightly less ridiculous, but it's still insane.

I've never played Darkstalker so I had no idea. Blazblue has one character that builds meter over time, so yeah it's not necessary less competitive which I agree depending on the game but I feel it is gonna make FS meter a much harder sell.

Hakumen doesn't even slightly count. The only reason he builds meter over time is that all of his specials use meter.

 

[meleebrawler]

If that was natural generation, then it looks incredibly slow. I don't see how anybody would even get one off in a 2-minute match with that speed.

 

[Nintykid]

If that was natural generation, then it looks incredibly slow. I don't see how anybody would even get one off in a 2-minute match with that speed.

Yeah that looked like it went WAY too slow to start camping for meter

 

[Untouch]

Here's what I feel will happen.
In a game, you're against a bayonetta, she has 95% of her meter filled up. At this point there's two options.

• Attack her, this fills up her FS meter and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you. Even if you kill her, she still respawns with full meter and does the same thing.
• Stay away from her, over time the FS meter fills up and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you.

I think the system would be fine if you only got meter with attacks, but It doesn't feel like that was the intended implementation here.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've never played Darkstalker so I had no idea. Blazblue has one character that builds meter over time, so yeah it's not necessary less competitive which I agree depending on the game but I feel it is gonna make FS meter a much harder sell.

Not only that but the structure of that game is the closest to Smash out of any other traditional fighting game. There are no "rounds", instead characters have a certain amount of times they can recover with full health after losing it all. Just like Smash's stocks.

Here's what I feel will happen.
In a game, you're against a bayonetta, she has 95% of her meter filled up. At this point there's two options.

• Attack her, this fills up her FS meter and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you. Even if you kill her, she still respawns with full meter and does the same thing.
• Stay away from her, over time the FS meter fills up and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you.

I think the system would be fine if you only got meter with attacks, but It doesn't feel like that was the intended implementation here.

Because being afraid to attack someone with a super ready never happens in other games?

 

[Nintykid]

Not only that but the structure of that game is the closest to Smash out of any other traditional fighting game. There are no "rounds", instead characters have a certain amount of times they can recover with full health after losing it all. Just like Smash's stocks.


Because being afraid to attack someone with a super ready never happens in other games?

That second one wouldn't happen as much as you think cause even if it fills up by itself, It would be PAINFULLY slow

 

[Izanagi97]

That second one wouldn't happen as much as you think cause even if it fills up by itself, It would be PAINFULLY slow

And besides, it'd be fun to watch final smash combos (though depending on how they do, they may just get banned though I hope they at least end up in exhibition type matches)

 

[J0eyboi]

Not only that but the structure of that game is the closest to Smash out of any other traditional fighting game. There are no "rounds", instead characters have a certain amount of times they can recover with full health after losing it all. Just like Smash's stocks.

That's an extremely surface-level comparison that ignores almost every mechanical aspect of how each game works as well as the extreme difference in power between each game's supers.

Because being afraid to attack someone with a super ready never happens in other games?

You say that as though it has literally any relevance to whether or not it's a good thing.

 

[GUIGUI]

View attachment 159534

Here's proof that it charges over time. No he wasn't dealing damage at this point by the way.

I am pretty sure he was using his cape when it increased, which, while not dealing damages in itself, still count as an attack.

 

[J0eyboi]

I am pretty sure he was using his cape when it increased, which, while not dealing damages in itself, still count as an attack.

He wasn't. I did a frame-by-frame analysis of the footage, and it goes up mid-roll at one point.

 

[MarioMVP]

View attachment 156297

So, There is finally a non-random way to use the Final Smash. Let's say it actually make the game more pleasurable to play, even in competition, is there a chance it will become Tourney Legal, or will force of habit impose itself and still ban it "on principle".

Unless it make the game too unbalanced, make things too unfair, I don't see no reason to turn this off.

View attachment 156297

So, There is finally a non-random way to use the Final Smash. Let's say it actually make the game more pleasurable to play, even in competition, is there a chance it will become Tourney Legal, or will force of habit impose itself and still ban it "on principle".

Unless it make the game too unbalanced, make things too unfair, I don't see no reason to turn this off.

Mario MVP: I personally welcome the Final Smash Meter; I’ve been speculating on it since the Switch launched with the rumors of a new Smash Bros. Also, since it was revealed in the Smash Direct, (FIY, it aired on my birthday!) it made my wishlist come true.

 

[blackghost]

Here's what I feel will happen.
In a game, you're against a bayonetta, she has 95% of her meter filled up. At this point there's two options.

• Attack her, this fills up her FS meter and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you. Even if you kill her, she still respawns with full meter and does the same thing.
• Stay away from her, over time the FS meter fills up and allows her to witch time the entire screen and punish you.

I think the system would be fine if you only got meter with attacks, but It doesn't feel like that was the intended implementation here.

and thats the main issue here. the issue isnt that the moves are strong. the issue is the meter has a singular use and purpose. it promotes linear gameplay inherently smash antithesis. The issue isnt how easy to gain meter is (see dbfz is given for free there) the issue is there are no ex moves, no enhanced options, no movement options, no tag options, or combo break options tied to the meter's ise. going back to dbfz meter is used for special tags, all H moves, and supers.
knowing this community there is no way the campy and slow gameplay of meter final smashes would be tolerated. The closest example of meter final smashes in the scene is lil mac ko punch. Many Many players argued the proper approach to deal with mac ko punch was to wait him out. this leads to many matches with lil mac resulting in a player running away because risk reward is so out of balance. No lets change that to marth, bayonetta, diddy, rosalina, or cloud. How much worse do you think it'll be?

also there is nothing you can do to Bayonetta fs and not have it be toxic in a competitive scene. time slow is universally a good ability in fighting games. every super ive seen it in (Amaterasu umvc3, viewtiful joe umvc3, skull girls) its not common for a reason and i dont want people calling with actual justification to ban my main.

 

[Fell God]

and thats the main issue here. the issue isnt that the moves are strong. the issue is the meter has a singular use and purpose. it promotes linear gameplay inherently smash antithesis. The issue isnt how easy to gain meter is (see dbfz is given for free there) the issue is there are no ex moves, no enhanced options, no movement options, no tag options, or combo break options tied to the meter's ise. going back to dbfz meter is used for special tags, all H moves, and supers.
knowing this community there is no way the campy and slow gameplay of meter final smashes would be tolerated. The closest example of meter final smashes in the scene is lil mac ko punch. Many Many players argued the proper approach to deal with mac ko punch was to wait him out. this leads to many matches with lil mac resulting in a player running away because risk reward is so out of balance. No lets change that to marth, bayonetta, diddy, rosalina, or cloud. How much worse do you think it'll be?

also there is nothing you can do to Bayonetta fs and not have it be toxic in a competitive scene. time slow is universally a good ability in fighting games. every super ive seen it in (Amaterasu umvc3, viewtiful joe umvc3, skull girls) its not common for a reason and i dont want people calling with actual justification to ban my main.

Not that I'm for the Final Smash meter being legal (though I still think they'd be cool to see in competitive, but too unbalanced as is) but in this situation it seems that, as usual, Bayonetta is the big problem. Out of all Final Smashes, hers is the only one with negative counterplay and no ability to evade it (surprise surprise, worst designed character gets the worst designed Final Smash). Again, Final Smashes as they are now could never be legal, but Bayonetta certainly doesn't help.

 

[blackghost]

Not that I'm for the Final Smash meter being legal (though I still think they'd be cool to see in competitive, but too unbalanced as is) but in this situation it seems that, as usual, Bayonetta is the big problem. Out of all Final Smashes, hers is the only one with negative counterplay and no ability to evade it (surprise surprise, worst designed character gets the worst designed Final Smash). Again, Final Smashes as they are now could never be legal, but Bayonetta certainly doesn't help.

she isnt the only one who is an issue. there are others you cant do anything about either in a competitive setting. marth, lucina, palutena, ganon, bowser, shulk, cloud, ryu, and maybe others im missing

ignoring whatever your other commentary on characters and design, Bayonetta herself isnt the issue at hand, because you cannot argue that ALL the others are ok except hers.

 

[Fell God]

she isnt the only one who is an issue. there are others you cant do anything about either in a competitive setting. marth, lucina, palutena, ganon, bowser, shulk, cloud, ryu, and maybe others im missing

ignoring whatever your other commentary on characters and design, Bayonetta herself isnt the issue at hand, because you cannot argue that ALL the others are ok except hers.

No no, I agree, but even the others can be avoided occasionally. As I said, I'm not for Final Smash meter, just an interesting note of odd design choice (why not just make hers a trapping Final Smash anyway?)

 

[blackghost]

No no, I agree, but even the others can be avoided occasionally. As I said, I'm not for Final Smash meter, just an interesting note of odd design choice (why not just make hers a trapping Final Smash anyway?)

because it goes against how the Bayonetta games work. shes about freeflow combat and combo creativity having a set combo done isnt her.

 

[SmashBro99]

Banned, they are very quick to throw out anything different.

 

[Fell God]

because it goes against how the Bayonetta games work. shes about freeflow combat and combo creativity having a set combo done isnt her.

Yeah sure let's go with that

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The closest thing to the FS-Meter in "traditional" FGs are:
SF2's Supers (Single Bar, nothing but supers come out of it.)
Tekken 7's Rage Arts (Probably the most interesting example since Tekken does have a lot of emphasis on movement and forcing mistakes with it. Triggers at low hp and while very useful for punishing because of armor, they're also very punishable.)
SFIV's Ultra Combos (Meter gained by taking damage/tanking it with armor and also only uses it for supers)

The one thing being overlooked here, they're not that common in matches. Each side will only get their super once per round.
mFS definitely feel a lot more common than the aforementioned examples.
The most prominent example is when Marth takes Samus' Zero Laser in the Direct and gets almost half his bar back. That's already a major issue. If mFS is a comeback mechanic, it can't happen that often, regardless of who's getting it.

As for not Final Smashes are made equal, yeah, pretty accurate. Sucks to be Lucas. His FS was trash in Brawl, I don't see the gimped version making it far in terms of viability. That's not really something that can be considered because some characters are pretty bad and they have to hold that L anyway, Final Smashes aren't an exception.

However, Marth's FS being this strong in the supposedly weakened state means he's already a problem.


With all of this said, I honestly think it boils down to how many times the players get it in a match, especially the good ones, since we can't tell whether or not each character has a different meter gain per hit.

Honestly, if someone like Marth gets it reliably more than once in a 3-Stock match, it needs to be banned.

That's only going to be observable in actual matches. I personally vote for testing it in online tournaments/side tournaments before making it legal on main events.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Stocks only at 2 stocks in Smash 4 made it difficult to make a comeback that same round. It's partly why I stopped caring about competitive Smash 4. Final Smash meter should be allowed at 3 or 4 stocks. 2 stock tournament matches are out of the question. It was maddening that even Smash 4 had 2 stocks in per round in tournaments when Brawl had an even slower Pace to it but was played with 3 stocks per round. It made sense for Melee to use more stocks since it was the fastest paced smash game. With final smashes allowed it may need to go up to 4 stocks if it rivals the pace of Melee.