Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

[blackghost]

Technically, all Daisy's FS does is give you a freeby. Unlike the former Peach FS, it doesn't allow to restore Health. It's the equivalent of getting a Broken Shield, minus the damage. Once you take the time to think about it, it's not that powerful and low % can easily survive it.

Also, about the Tree house direct, Stocked Match with Smash Meter start at 22:00, so you can see how it actually would look like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9qT_GURyI

nothing about the treehouse play give an indication of what high level play will look like/ devolve into. we have to consider high-level play and what players playing for money, sponsorships, and personal reputations will do to win. also fs are not limited to just cutscene final smashes like the ones here. i still need to see answers for peach, Bayonetta, marth, ryu, ken, and more that will absolutely be threats to kill at any percent.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

did you miss the part in my clip where Daisy healed about 40%? 2 minutes and 12 seconds in.

Even without the healing, it's essentially a free shield break

 

[GUIGUI]

did you miss the part in my clip where Daisy healed about 40%? 2 minutes and 12 seconds in.

Even without the healing, it's essentially a free shield break

Except Peach's final Smash is actually easy to avoid :
Don't touch the floor or grab a ledge while she is doing it. If it is still the case, it is then actually a rather weak Final Smash, with the healing items even possibly turning against the Peach user as the opponent, fully awake, can grab it too.

At 1:39

It turns out Daisy's Fianl smash is actually not that broken, seeing how easy it is to avoid and how it can backfire.

On a side note, avoiding Bayonetta's Final Smash is actually possible too. Here, it's almost the opposite, you have to be grounded and toy with Shield and Dodge, whose the Witch Time doesn't affect its use.

At 7:37

Here is the fact, all FS can be dodged or avoided, which make the Sash Meter something to at least consider and experiment with.

 

[Beatrice]

I think when the defense of final smash meter comes down to "don't touch the floor," we've probably reached the end of the discussion. Come on, now.

 

[Nintykid]

Except Peach's final Smash is actually easy to avoid :
Don't touch the floor or grab a ledge while she is doing it. If it is still the case, it is then actually a rather weak Final Smash, with the healing items even possibly turning against the Peach user as the opponent, fully awake, can grab it too.

At 1:39

It turns out Daisy's Fianl smash is actually not that broken, seeing how easy it is to avoid and how it can backfire.

On a side note, avoiding Bayonetta's Final Smash is actually possible too. Here, it's almost the opposite, you have to be grounded and toy with Shield and Dodge, whose the Witch Time doesn't affect its use.

At 7:37

Here is the fact, all FS can be dodged or avoided, which make the Sash Meter something to at least consider and experiment with.

Not to mention for Bayo's FS, the duration of the attack is probably a lot worst

 

[J0eyboi]

Thing of note,as it has Incineroar, it might have the final build and THE FLASH METER DOES NOT APPEAR TO CHARGE IF YOU DO NOTHING any more. So there is that.

spelling really isn't that hard

Anyway, Final Smash meter definitely still builds passively.

Here is the fact, all FS can be dodged or avoided, which make the Sash Meter something to at least consider and experiment with.

Counterpoint.

 

[SvartWolf]

people saying that FS don't kill at low percents fail to realize that the player doesnt need to burn the final smash instantly.

Say Daisy get her final smash when the enemy is at 0%.whatdoes she do? just keep playing normally until she racked 70% and then press b and go for that sweet guaranteed kill....

 

[Nintykid]

people saying that FS don't kill at low percents fail to realize that the player doesnt need to burn the final smash instantly.

Say Daisy get her final smash when the enemy is at 0%.whatdoes she do? just keep playing normally until she racked 70% and then press b and go for that sweet guaranteed kill....

How is that any different from Ness racking up damage to back throw you, or Cloud Getting limit (Which is a hell of a lot faster than FSM) and doing Limit Cross Slash/Finishing touch/etc., or Ryu comboing you in to True Shoryuken, all normal stuff in their kit

 

[S_B]

As a former tournament player, I would absolutely not want to play with final smash meters on.

Nothing would be worse than carefully racking damage in a last stock situation only to have the opponent get their final smash and hit me just ONCE and lose the game as a result...

 

[SvartWolf]

How is that any different from Ness racking up damage to back throw you, or Cloud Getting limit (Which is a hell of a lot faster than FSM) and doing Limit Cross Slash/Finishing touch/etc., or Ryu comboing you in to True Shoryuken, all normal stuff in their kit

because none of this options instant punishes you for landing everywhere on teh stage? or cover the whole screen with a laser?

 

[J0eyboi]

How is that any different from Ness racking up damage to back throw you, or Cloud Getting limit (Which is a hell of a lot faster than FSM) and doing Limit Cross Slash/Finishing touch/etc., or Ryu comboing you in to True Shoryuken, all normal stuff in their kit

Svart said what I was going to, but to add something else:

Not all characters are designed to be able to kill that early, and it could easily break the game's balance.

Take Bayo as an example. See, Bayo's not actually all that good at killing. She can certainly kill early, and does a lot of damage, but actually finding kills with any consistency can be pretty hard for her if you SDI and DI correctly. Top Bayos often have to rely on her killthrows, which generally don't kill till past 150%, to actually seal stocks. This weakness has reportedly been exacerbated in Ultimate, as Uair fails to kill midweights at 180% from center stage. With all that said, I hope it's becoming apparent why it would be an issue to give her a fullscreen Final Smash that is guaranteed to kill at 100%. For at least 1 stock and possibly 2 of every game, Bayo doesn't need to worry about struggling to kill, because she can kill off of almost any hit when she has FS up, and that has a lot of potential to become a problem.

 

[S_B]

Until we hear from any organizers of large tournaments, I don't think we're in danger of final smash meters in tournaments ever becoming an actual thing.

 

[Mecakoto]

Food for thought:

https://youtu.be/zppe1_cuTjQ?t=546

Was playing some catch up. Isabelle's Meter final smash:

* Does 39%.
* Is gotten over the course of a single stock.
* Nearly kills Daisy from the other side of battlefield at 22%.

Had she been hit the other direction, it would of been a KO.

Meter final smashes cannot be included in a competitive environment.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I fail to understand the argument behind this. Since the 64, competitive Smash has been about out-maneuvering, creatively comboing and otherwise out-smarting the opponent. All of these things require a great amount of control, practice and dedication.

Pressing B and getting a 50% reward out of it does not fall in line with this.

Yes, it's possible to avoid them. It's also possible to avoid every assist trophy. Or Mom on gamer stage! I'd wager Little Mac will be able to down-tilt into FS.

Ness: backthrow to FS
Marth/Lucina/Link: techchase to FS
Peach/Daisy: bait out a jump, harass the ledge
Bayo: WitchTime to FS

The list goes on. Every argument I'm hearing in defense of the final smash meter are being stated as though Final Smashes are going to be used in the neutral. We all know this is not at all true. There will be traps, there will be set-ups. All I see this doing is further polarizing the good characters from the bad.

 

[Bobert]

They didn't really do a good job at nerfing the final smashes honestly. They can't be blocked, some like Daisy's, Diddy's, and Bayo's are virtually instant kills from anywhere on the screen and require 0 commitment, and Bowser's appears to be an invincible get out of jail free card that lets him KO you instantly. Simon and Wolf can just run up to you and press B for what's basically a frame 5 massively disjointed grab that's wider and taller than Ridley's entire body and kills you at 70. Final Smashes would be hype in tournaments if they were actually balanced for a competitive environment, but obviously they aren't. The debate should have been over when somebody actually suggested not touching the floor as fair counter play.

 

[Nintykid]

I still say it should be a wait see moment honestly. Until we see veterans play and test them out themselves

 

[Vulgun]

Food for thought:

https://youtu.be/zppe1_cuTjQ?t=546

Was playing some catch up. Isabelle's Meter final smash:

* Does 39%.
* Is gotten over the course of a single stock.
* Nearly kills Daisy from the other side of battlefield at 22%.

Had she been hit the other direction, it would of been a KO.

Meter final smashes cannot be included in a competitive environment.

It nearly kills Daisy from the other side of Battlefield at 43.4% when it launches her. Additionally, this is Daisy, who may have the same weight as Peach in this game (and whether or not it's been nerfed is to be determined), and Peach is known to be a very low middleweight in the series. This is no different from a regular Warlock Punch or a KO Punch sending her flying, both of which have the potential to KO her before Isabelle's Final Smash would.

Additionally, she would've been KO'd if she was in the opposite direction. I'll give you that. But other attacks would have resulted in the same outcome, too.

And I know you don't want meter FS to be included in a competitive environment. I respect that opinion, but I do also disagree to an extent.

---------------------------------

At this current state in the discussion, I find it imperative that everyone know that if we have Final Smashes included as a third main event, it wouldn't detract from the tournament itself whatsoever. It would be just that, a third main event that people could play, and if you don't want to watch it or play it, that's completely fine, but putting it as a third main event to give it some chance to see the viability of it would be the best thing we could do for it at the moment without either forcing it to be played as the meta or just outright snuffing it before we give it time or attention.

Is it that hard to try out something new for once, guys?

 

[S_B]

Is it that hard to try out something new for once, guys?

You're not asking the right people unless someone here is an organizer of a major tournament (and I highly doubt the TOs behind Evo or something are going to be reading this forum).

If people want a third event, you're going to have to host your own tournaments and see if they gain traction that way.

I agree with the earlier sentiment: as soon as someone gets their final smash via meter, SSB abruptly stops and becomes a game of tag, and it murders the pacing dead and isn't at all enjoyable to watch.

 

[Bobert]

It nearly kills Daisy from the other side of Battlefield at 43.4% when it launches her. Additionally, this is Daisy, who may have the same weight as Peach in this game (and whether or not it's been nerfed is to be determined), and Peach is known to be a very low middleweight in the series. This is no different from a regular Warlock Punch or a KO Punch sending her flying, both of which have the potential to KO her before Isabelle's Final Smash would.

Additionally, she would've been KO'd if she was in the opposite direction. I'll give you that. But other attacks would have resulted in the same outcome, too.

And I know you don't want meter FS to be included in a competitive environment. I respect that opinion, but I do also disagree to an extent.

---------------------------------

At this current state in the discussion, I find it imperative that everyone know that if we have Final Smashes included as a third main event, it wouldn't detract from the tournament itself whatsoever. It would be just that, a third main event that people could play, and if you don't want to watch it or play it, that's completely fine, but putting it as a third main event to give it some chance to see the viability of it would be the best thing we could do for it at the moment without either forcing it to be played as the meta or just outright snuffing it before we give it time or attention.

Is it that hard to try out something new for once, guys?

Having the opinion that it probably isn't going to be tourney legal for main events doesn't mean we don't want to give it a try as a side event. I'd love FS to be legal because cinematic finishers in fighting games are always awesome to see, but nobody should come close to dying to an unblockable super at nearly full health or avoid the floor entirely to avoid getting KO'd. I think it's extremely reasonable to be wary of a legal FSM option from what we've seen so far.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Um dude did you really watch the Treeehouse? Most still died more to smashes and special moves than FS. In fact almost nothing really changed here other than fact you have extra oneshot move (that isn't guaranteed KO) which risks getting you killed. FS happened waay to infrequently for stock come down. It's not like we didn't have similair moves in Smash 4 like True Shryo that not only killed even earlier, weren't gated. At the end of most KOs in Smash come do to reads and setups not combos which few actually had.

Your comment can literally apply to Rage Arts which are comeback supers in Trekken 7, however not only did they work, it didn't t stop other methods of koing. You're sceanrio is not how people play fighting games.

Yeah I did watch the Tree House footage, that’s what cemented my decision as a no.

Surely, they don’t kill as early, but as I stated, they take away s lot of excitement from the comeback factor of the game. Instead of having to carefully approach, space and take risks to make a comeback or gain an advantageous position, all you have to do is press B to use a move that covers a ton of space, forces you out of neutral, or could kill you instantly. Combine that with the fact that they are not all created equal, it’s not gonna fly well. If we couldn’t use custom moves in Smash 4, what makes you think that these are ok?

True Shoryu was strong in smash 4, but it’s saving grace that to set it up you had to use a series of inputs that could potentially screw up. Now with final smashes he could link any move into a final smash and true combo into it due to his mechanics allowing him to cancel normals into specials, and specials into final smashes.

Not all final smashes will kill, which wouldn’t be bad if they all functioned the same / gave the same benefits to each character, but that simply isn’t the case. Characters will final smashes that kill will be much more viable, and similar to how players cower on platforms for Limit / KO punch, players will do the same for final smashes, and scenarios like these are not exciting for spectators.

In comparison to Rage Arts in Tekken, and Supers on Street Fighter, landing and using them tend to come at a cost. In addition to burning a full meter of resources that could be used for EX moves to pressure or maintain a neutral position, a super is a Hail Mary, go for the damage maneuver that traditionally leaves your character with a sufficient amount of end lag. You can put your opponent in a damage / stun disadvantage, but your opponent may have the resources necessary to reverse the situation on you, especially if he / she gets some solid reads and strings. This push-pull with supers in traditional fighters creates a sense of tension, and pushes player executional barriers, which is why no one has qualms with them in traditional fighters. As opposed to final smashes, which have no execution barrier (press b), give players maximum advantage over stage control and neutral (some moves being able to whiff punish or instantly target a player from across screen), and no viable method of defense against them besides out maneuvering them, which in a game that is all about controlling space, is incredibly overwhelming (unlike games like street fighter with parry mechanics [3rd Strike], Alpha Counters [Street Fighter Alpha], and V-Reversals [Street Fighter V]). Even if you miss a final smash you aren’t at a disadvantage, you still have all of your moves available, so you only broke even. If there are no real costs associated with it than the possibility of punishing a character shortly outside of its invincibility frames, then having that advantage does not weight evenly with cost of the move, and therefor, presents an imbalance.

I know the idea for having these in the game is cool, but think about it in the long run what kind of game we would be playing. If you get final smashed then KO punched you’re basically losing 2 stocks for nothing, and I know you’re gonna get tired of that ****.

 

[Mecakoto]

It nearly kills Daisy from the other side of Battlefield at 43.4% when it launches her. Additionally, this is Daisy, who may have the same weight as Peach in this game (and whether or not it's been nerfed is to be determined), and Peach is known to be a very low middleweight in the series. This is no different from a regular Warlock Punch or a KO Punch sending her flying, both of which have the potential to KO her before Isabelle's Final Smash would.

Additionally, she would've been KO'd if she was in the opposite direction. I'll give you that. But other attacks would have resulted in the same outcome, too.

And I know you don't want meter FS to be included in a competitive environment. I respect that opinion, but I do also disagree to an extent.

---------------------------------

At this current state in the discussion, I find it imperative that everyone know that if we have Final Smashes included as a third main event, it wouldn't detract from the tournament itself whatsoever. It would be just that, a third main event that people could play, and if you don't want to watch it or play it, that's completely fine, but putting it as a third main event to give it some chance to see the viability of it would be the best thing we could do for it at the moment without either forcing it to be played as the meta or just outright snuffing it before we give it time or attention.

Is it that hard to try out something new for once, guys?

Are you for real? Brah, you got under my skin. Daisy got hit at 22%. That's the starting damage, not 43%. She almost died, cross stage, at 22%.

There is a MASSIVE difference between a FRAME 60-80 move that you are basically required to get a shield break to hit and a FRAME 4ish, INVINCIBLE, UNBLOCKABLE move that does MORE damage and will reasonably kill lower-mid weight characters at insanely low %s. AND IT'S GOING TO BE A LEGIT STRAT TO CAMP OUT FOR IT BECAUSE YOU CAN REASONABLY GET 1 PER STOCK WITH NORMAL PLAY.

And other attacks would of killed at 22%, at that position, from the other direction, huh? Name ANYTHING as remotely safe and fast that kill a lower-mid weight. Let me save you time. Game and Watch's Hammer and full, top tier bucket, a Bomb-Omb, KO Punch, and Waft. That's it. I'm not counting Smash attacks because you have to charge them for 60 frames, and even then it's a very rare few.

But this isn't isolated to just a few moves. WE'VE SEEN MULTIPLE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS HAVE SIMILAR POWER LEVELS FOR METERED SMASHES. Peach and Daisy both heal for, what? 60%? Then get a fully charged Smash attack of choice. Marth can combo you into something that kills at 0% from the middle of the stage. These aren't being balanced for competitive play and, considering they are so fast, safe, and kill so early, any metagame that includes them as an option WILL revolve around them.

It's glaringly obvious these are not suited for a competitive environment. The condition was, "would these be reasonably nerfed?" The answer is, "no." A fun, casual one? Sure. You do you. You should not sacrifice a side event, of which you only have room and time for so many, for the most rediculious thing since people discussed Smooth Lander.

 

[SvartWolf]

watching the spain invitational... actually, the bar seems more pasable on 2v2, First, with more than 2 characters, the final smashes do less damage, and second.. teh fact that you can catch your teammate makes more passable those easy to land Final smashes... maybe as a side event on teams?

 

[Iron Maw]

Um, let's be real here. FSM aren't adding an issues to the balance which are not already there. Whether it's people spamming the same flow chart attacks, early kill moves, camping, being forced to play differently under pressure threat of potential KO etc will exist regardless of FSM. People will end up learning same lesson they ought have already known by now: Smash inherently unbalanced by very fact all characters are extremely different to the point a lot even aren't playing by same rules. Other fighting communicates at least embraced the unbalanced natures of they fav games, but only here will people still try to pretend if any character where always on same playing field and some new mechanic made it worse. All this is doing taking potential option that could have lead to stratagies to help weaker characters not get completely steamrollered by top tiers and possible reversals like other fighters have.

FSM are no more instant wins than True Shoryu, WT, or tipper are, they are easier to dodge than most normal kill moves due to huge startup most of them have, much less over centralizing because they gated and won't even become usable until your stock nearly gone most of the time. And oh you just need to "B" to is laughable as if most normal kill moves don't require simply button presses. They don't offer a single advanagte that can't be overcome more than other move in the game. Most opposing arguments are based dishonest fearmonging of things already baked in by design in the system to mask real reason is that community doesn't want it, change. They don't want to adapt and will come up with all kinds of reasons to justify it while ignoring the blunt contradictions in those views. Unless Sakurai forces things "Rage" on the Smash community as most devs do they will take anything on their own. It will keep happening as it as always does.

Frankly a truly balanced Smash game would be very different what we have now much less fun. If the future of competitive smash means adhering to hypocritical standards and not serious openminded truthful discussion of mechanics then ultimate the games after will limited potential to go anywhere. If the current views here are anything to go by this already purely on concept, never-mind testing which won't happen seriously anyway we drop because it might be potentially broken as if we don't accept things like that. So I look forward to people defending newly zero-to-death combos, hoola-hoops shenanigans like they did past while having gall to complain about FSM.

 

[J0eyboi]

Simon and Wolf can just run up to you and press B for what's basically a frame 5 massively disjointed grab that's wider and taller than Ridley's entire body and kills you at 70.

It's actually closer to frame 8 and kills at 60. At least in Simon's case.

Um, let's be real here. FSM aren't adding an issues to the balance which are not already there. Whether it's people spamming the same flow chart attacks, early kill moves, camping, being forced to play differently under pressure threat of potential KO etc will exist regardless of FSM. People will end up learning same lesson they ought have already known by now: Smash inherently unbalanced by very fact all characters are extremely different to the point a lot even aren't playing by same rules. Other fighting communicates at least embraced the unbalanced natures of they fav games, but only here will people still try to pretend if any character where always on same playing field and some new mechanic made it worse. All this is doing taking potential option that could have lead to stratagies to help weaker characters not get completely steamrollered by top tiers and possible reversals like other fighters have.

FSM are no more instant wins than True Shoryu, WT, or tipper are, they are easier to dodge than most normal kill moves due to huge startup most of them have, much less over centralizing because they gated and won't even become usable until your stock nearly gone most of the time. And oh you just need to "B" to is laughable as if most normal kill moves don't require simply button presses. They don't offer a single advanagte that can't be overcome more than other move in the game. Most opposing arguments are based dishonest fearmonging of things already baked in by design in the system to mask real reason is that community doesn't want it, change. They don't want to adapt and will come up with all kinds of reasons to justify it while ignoring the blunt contradictions in those views. Unless Sakurai forces things "Rage" on the Smash community as most devs do they will take anything on their own. It will keep happening as it as always does.

Frankly a truly balanced Smash game would be very different what we have now much less fun. If the future of competitive smash means adhering to hypocritical standards and not serious openminded truthful discussion of mechanics then ultimate the games after will limited potential to go anywhere. If the current views here are anything to go by this already purely on concept, never-mind testing which won't happen seriously anyway we drop because it might be potentially broken as if we don't accept things like that. So I look forward to people defending newly zero-to-death combos, hoola-hoops shenanigans like they did past while having gall to complain about FSM.

Oh hey, it's my old friend "balance is boring." Figured you'd show up around here sometime.

First of all, you're completely wrong about balance and other fighting games. If all characters had to be similar to each other for a game to be balanced, then why are there 12 different top tiers representing numerous different playstyles in Smash 4? Balance is only boring if the system balance is bad, which Smash's isn't in general but which Final Smash meter could cause it to be. And if you want proof that a game in which every character plays by different rules (in some cases near literally) can be extremely balanced, look at Guilty Gear.

Second of all,

FSM aren't adding an issues to the balance which are not already there.

I literally just ****ing talked about a potential balance issue that would be added by FSM.

Svart said what I was going to, but to add something else:

Not all characters are designed to be able to kill that early, and it could easily break the game's balance.

Take Bayo as an example. See, Bayo's not actually all that good at killing. She can certainly kill early, and does a lot of damage, but actually finding kills with any consistency can be pretty hard for her if you SDI and DI correctly. Top Bayos often have to rely on her killthrows, which generally don't kill till past 150%, to actually seal stocks. This weakness has reportedly been exacerbated in Ultimate, as Uair fails to kill midweights at 180% from center stage. With all that said, I hope it's becoming apparent why it would be an issue to give her a fullscreen Final Smash that is guaranteed to kill at 100%. For at least 1 stock and possibly 2 of every game, Bayo doesn't need to worry about struggling to kill, because she can kill off of almost any hit when she has FS up, and that has a lot of potential to become a problem.

At least have the decency to read the other side's arguments before you make broad, innacurate observations about them.

In fact, basically all of your arguments here have already been addressed (I can go into detail, if you'd like). Stop pretending like you're the victim of fear mongering when you are actively shutting out information that proves you wrong.

 

[GUIGUI]

Final Smash meter definitely still builds passively.

Counterpoint.

Which one of the charaters, and between what time and what time?

Final Smash meter definitely still builds passively.

Counterpoint.

Shield and roll.

 

[J0eyboi]

Which one of the charaters, and between what time and what time?

Daisy, and the link is timestamped.

Shield and roll.

It's unblockable, and roll staling will kill attempts to roll through it. The barrels appear to be more or less random and are completely unreactable anyway, so even if you can avoid it, whether or not you do will be up to the RNG gods.

 

[GUIGUI]

Daisy, and the link is timestamped.

At the timestamp you posted, she was actually attacking before getting her Smash Meter full.

 

[Jexulus]

I think the community as a whole will have a firmer grasp on the impact of FS Meter after some time playing the game. Things on paper almost always work out different in practice. Seeing footage and having limited pre-release exposure gameplay-wise is a non-starter because it's such a small sample size and the builds have differed between sessions. There are things that obviously won't change in such a short time, of course, but players' familiarity with the system and how to play around it will evolve throughout the game's lifecycle. Play some friendlies, maybe a few tournaments with the system enabled, and see how it is and join in on discussions once the game is released. Something as pivotal as this would be a shame to dismiss out of hand before the game's launch.

My personal view on it: the meter is visible to everyone, and we know how it builds up and when it's ready with clear tells. Because it overrides Neutral Special in almost every circumstance, it has to be discharged by most characters within a few seconds to continue normal gameplay. We already have experience with Mac's KO Punch and Cloud's Limit Break having a visible meter that builds over time that grants a one-time super-charged move with incredible KO potential.

Players are quick studies; we'll figure this out hands-on in due time. I just think it's too early to dismiss as competitively unviable.

 

[J0eyboi]

At the timestamp you posted, she was actually attacking before getting her Smash Meter full.

Except she didn't hit, and if you can gain meter by whiffing attacks, it's significantly worse than if it just generates passively, as you can just camp and spam fast moves to gain meter extremely quickly.

 

[Vulgun]

https://youtu.be/HCWuhfbkAng?t=139

Around this point here, it's apparent that the Final Smash meter will charge by attacking the opponent (timestamped is Bowser using the Daybreaker item on Marth). I didn't notice this could happen (or maybe I forgot) until the video, but with this new evidence being brought to light, it does raise some new discussion topics we've yet to talk about.

One such thing is that attacking an opponent builds the meter slower than being attacked by the opponent. I estimate it would take three to four times the amount of time to gain a Final Smash simply by attacking the opponent than by being attacked. I wish that this could have also been applied to being attacked since that would have been a great balancing factor for them.

 

[GrownManJones]

It kills the momentum in a 1 on 1 match and is clearly is a casual option for picking up some kills on your friends.

I would play against my friend with it on, but I couldn't take it seriously in a real match. If EVO was won by a final smash it would be stupid, not hype lol.

 

[Iron Maw]

I think the community as a whole will have a firmer grasp on the impact of FS Meter after some time playing the game. Things on paper almost always work out different in practice. Seeing footage and having limited pre-release exposure gameplay-wise is a non-starter because it's such a small sample size and the builds have differed between sessions. There are things that obviously won't change in such a short time, of course, but players' familiarity with the system and how to play around it will evolve throughout the game's lifecycle. Play some friendlies, maybe a few tournaments with the system enabled, and see how it is and join in on discussions once the game is released. Something as pivotal as this would be a shame to dismiss out of hand before the game's launch.

My personal view on it: the meter is visible to everyone, and we know how it builds up and when it's ready with clear tells. Because it overrides Neutral Special in almost every circumstance, it has to be discharged by most characters within a few seconds to continue normal gameplay. We already have experience with Mac's KO Punch and Cloud's Limit Break having a visible meter that builds over time that grants a one-time super-charged move with incredible KO potential.

Players are quick studies; we'll figure this out hands-on in due time. I just think it's too early to dismiss as competitively unviable.

I mean this what propponents like myself in this thread are ultimately saying. Despite same kind of hang-wringing about customs we at least tested them for almost year before we put ti down. Even If I didn't agree with concuslion it was still given a signficant trial period to learn it. Yet once again we trying to ban something right out of gate without doing that, with people either talking as if played with it or cherry-picking scenarios without context (i.e early killing not including things like DI and damage boost) and outright ignoring that a ton FS don't kill early to push their agenda. As far the issue counterplay for them is concerned in Smash or any other ifghter its not just something that happens in your head, it's needs to practically tested to be proven which is why it is another important reason to do it. Besides other posters have theorized simple ones to get around specific FSes anyway as you would any other move in the game. However they gotten are ridiculously dismissive and disingenuous reaction that take statement out of context. I think also worth noting that Nintendo themselves are hosting tournaments with FSM on which may mean they might getting balance adjustments in the future too.

One last thing, on inivicblity: most Supers in fighters are invincible on start up and most completiviet players rarely attempt clash with them and prefer simply wait or bait them out which Smash perfectly capable of doing. It's not issue itself either.

 

[Beatrice]

I mean this what propponents like myself in this thread are ultimately saying. Despite same kind of hang-wringing about customs we at least tested them for almost year before we put ti down. Even If I didn't agree with concuslion it was still given a signficant trial period to learn it. Yet once again we trying to ban something right out of gate without doing that, with people either talking as if played with it or cherry-picking scenarios without context (i.e early killing not including things like DI and damage boost) and outright ignoring that a ton FS don't kill early to push their agenda. As far the issue counterplay for them is concerned in Smash or any other ifghter its not just something that happens in your head, it's needs to practically tested to be proven which is why it is another important reason to do it. Besides other posters have theorized simple ones to get around specific FSes anyway as you would any other move in the game. However they gotten are ridiculously dismissive and disingenuous reaction that take statement out of context. I think also worth noting that Nintendo themselves are hosting tournaments with FSM on which may mean they might getting balance adjustments in the future too.

One last thing, on inivicblity: most Supers in fighters are invincible on start up and most completiviet players rarely attempt clash with them and prefer simply wait or bait them out which Smash perfectly capable of doing. It's not issue itself either.

Final smashes aren't comparable at all to supers in other fighters. Supers in other fighters are usually extremely punishable and generally blockable and come at the expense of using a resource. Final smashes are just free pressure and usually free damage/kills. I'm sure there will be side events where final smash meter is used, and I don't think anyone cares/opposes that, but it'd be disappointing to see something like Genesis be the testing ground for a mechanic that would almost certainly be banned the moment we come to the natural conclusion that "not touching the ground" is not adequate counterplay to final smashes.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I’d love to see FSM be used in competitive play (IMO it would make competitive play a bit more interesting and risky)

 

[blackghost]

people really also arent considering how this community, IN PARTICULAR, will react. Im watching the smash bros spain event. its doubles with FS meter on. The amount of pressure some characters can exert is just insane.

bayonetta when she earns/ is given her final smash essentially stops the game. I am not exaggerating. the opponent is 100 percent at the bayo player's mercy.

 

[J0eyboi]

cherry-picking scenarios without context (i.e early killing not including things like DI and damage boost) and outright ignoring that a ton FS don't kill early to push their agenda.

A ton of Final Smashes not killing early is not a point in your favor, and the fact that Marth's Final Smash still oneshotted while Lucas's did virtually nothing was a point detractors mentioned repeatedly after the August Direct. People who don't want final smash meter legal aren't ignoring the fact that a bunch of final Smashes don't kill early. We just don't bring it up because "a bunch" is not "all" and so long as there are Final Smashes that kill stupidly early, it's going to make otherwise perfectly fine characters unfun to fight and potentially degenerate.

Also it's not cherry picking to not account for DI when we have no way of telling how they DI'd. DI is not so impactful that it would change my opinion on any of these final Smashes killing too early. It's also not cherry picking to ignore the 1v1 damage boost when we know we're to be playing items-off 1v1.

Besides other posters have theorized simple ones to get around specific FSes anyway as you would any other move in the game. However they gotten are ridiculously dismissive and disingenuous reaction that take statement out of context.

Jesus, I can hardly parse what this says

I'm just going to quote someone else who already responded to the "Final Smashes are avoidable" point.

Every argument I'm hearing in defense of the final smash meter are being stated as though Final Smashes are going to be used in the neutral. We all know this is not at all true. There will be traps, there will be set-ups. All I see this doing is further polarizing the good characters from the bad.

If you're going to antagonize us and make broad generalizations, you could at least bother to try making those generalizations correct.

One last thing, on inivicblity: most Supers in fighters are invincible on start up and most completiviet players rarely attempt clash with them and prefer simply wait or bait them out which Smash perfectly capable of doing. It's not issue itself either.

Again, you're wrong about other fighting games. Not every super is a reversal, and not every character has a reversal super in most games. What's more, reversal supers are pretty much always unsafe on block, which we know won't be happening because Final Smashes can't be blocked.

 

[Iron Maw]

A ton of Final Smashes not killing early is not a point in your favor.

It is when it is one of most harp one points of contention in this thread. That already alleviates much of their danger. Even their can't be block they can be dodged. There plenty of fighters that have characters with unblockable supers anyway which just get rolled through. But hey keeping thing you don't have any options and only sit there them raw.

Final smashes aren't comparable at all to supers in other fighters. Supers in other fighters are usually extremely punishable and generally blockable and come at the expense of using a resource. Final smashes are just free pressure and usually free damage/kills. I'm sure there will be side events where final smash meter is used, and I don't think anyone cares/opposes that, but it'd be disappointing to see something like Genesis be the testing ground for a mechanic that would almost certainly be banned the moment we come to the natural conclusion that "not touching the ground" is not adequate counterplay to final smashes.

And I disagree as someone who played a tone of fighters as do many others.
FSM comes at expense of resource. FSM can be punished by simple evading and attacking even by most basic players looking at vids. So far most kill early without poor DI on the on in receiveing end. FS can be used in the airs not touching the ground won't help. Even if you can avoid some of them that who cares? We don't pick choose what counterplay is valid or not. This complaining that you spot dodge a smash attack. Nobody said they should be tested at major tournaments and event they are it's not gonna kill the scene anyway.

Frankly there far more things I'm worried about that than FS and they can kill 70% without need to charge them.

 

[S_B]

If FSMs were legal, the tier list would be based entirely around which characters can stall the longest and have the most guaranteed FS.

Competitive Ultimate would die overnight and everyone would go back to melee if this was implemented in major tournaments. This literally WOULD kill the scene.

Side events, sure, I guess, but I think you'll find most TOs aren't going to want to bother.

 

[J0eyboi]

It is when it is one of most harp one points of contention in this thread.

I'd ask if you actually read anything I wrote other than that one line, but the answer is readily apparent so I won't bother. Stop strawmanning, please.

Here's a refresher.

the fact that Marth's Final Smash still oneshotted while Lucas's did virtually nothing was a point detractors mentioned repeatedly after the August Direct.

We just don't bring it up because "a bunch" is not "all" and so long as there are Final Smashes that kill stupidly early, it's going to make otherwise perfectly fine characters unfun to fight and potentially degenerate.

Do you get it yet?

That already alleviates much of their danger. Even their can't be block they can be dodged. There plenty of fighters that have characters with unblockable supers anyway which just get rolled through. But hey keeping thing you don't have any options and only sit there them raw.

I'm not worried about raw supers in neutral. I'm worried about the fact that every character would have a true, one-button reversal, many of which are unpunishable and even more of which kill. Can you seriously not see any problems with this?

 

[ｐｓ＿]

No.

1. The idea behind Smash tournaments is that, save for the characters' own inherent movesets, everything is as level as possible. No random spawning items, no maps where crazy things happen, no Final Smashes (nor smash balls), just two players brawling.

2. Sakurai made a good decision quickening the pace of each Final Smash, but their exact properties and how to execute them remain very different from each other. If tournaments allowed Final Smash moves, certain characters would soar to top-tier solely because their moves kill instantly and aren't difficult to execute (the Belmont boys come to mind.)

3. Final Smash meters seem to reward dealing damage... no matter how you deal it. Matches swiftly boil down to spamming items/projectiles from far away until you have meter, then walking up to your opponent and using Final Smash. I know this because I've watched recent footage of people winning a tournament doing this.