Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

GUIGUI

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#1
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So, There is finally a non-random way to use the Final Smash. Let's say it actually make the game more pleasurable to play, even in competition, is there a chance it will become Tourney Legal, or will force of habit impose itself and still ban it "on principle".

Unless it make the game too unbalanced, make things too unfair, I don't see no reason to turn this off.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#2
Probably not. Final Smashes when you get down to it are mostly mechanics that remove the intrigue of actually finishing stocks even if the meter ones are vaguely weaker, and the variation in quality looks pretty severe (like in a singles context that Lucas final smash looks like a good way to eat an overcharged tipper Marth fsmash whereas the Mario one is just ridiculously good obviously).
 

GUIGUI

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#3
It's really not different than the special attacks in othe fighting games. And that can be compensated by increasing the number of stocks. Whether it use Final Smash or land an other powerful attack, it just add as much to the increase, especially as it look like the field effect final smash have already been weakened while most of the other Final Smash require to land the attack to be able to work.

Looking at all the way the final smashes have been modified,it really look like they have tweaked them to be more fair.
 
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#4
Almost 0% chance

1) Off by default. Not a default setting. Competitive tends to stick to default as much as possible outside of items and stock vs timer battles.

2) Most likely charges too quickly. We don't want every other stock being taken by a final smash. Adding more stocks is not an answer, makes tournaments go too long and still doesn't change the fact that...

3) They are still too strong. Covers too much of the screen, kills too early etc etc even when nerfed in damaged output. There is no way that a character working around their strengths/weaknesses to normally KO an opponent is on par with "click B button, cover screen with massive amount of damage just because the bar is filled". Doesn't look like Street Fighter or w/e where not only do you have to work to fill the bar, you have other things you can use the bar for as a tradeoff.

At most, it will be a side event. I could see it working out for say, a team battle side event. Not taken as seriously as normal doubles, but something in the same category as low-tier only tournaments or the like. Just to spice things up every now and then.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#5
Let me just elaborate.

I mean final smashes hit harder than normal smash attacks but are much easier to actually land so they make it "not hard" to end a stock far earlier than you could otherwise wherein you either had to make a big read to land a power blow, take a risk by chasing off-stage, or gradually wear them down until one of your throws or one of your BnB moves kills at like 150%. It removes more gameplay than it adds. It's kinda like why we would never consider using the stamina mode. It's not that it's inherently unplayable, but making stocks end at a consistent and predictable clip is actually negative versus the status quo.

And again, just look at the difference in quality. That Lucas one just obviously sucks. It does a million damage but only hits right on top of Lucas so it's basically a souped up version of Pikachu's Thunder. Like it doesn't look like a bad move in and of itself (you'd still use it on reads and in edgeguard situations), but it's not the kind of thing you can reliably land on demand. No one is dodging that Mario one if the Mario player doesn't suck; he's taking your stock when he's in final smash kill range if he has it charged. Assuming Lucas isn't Brawl MK levels of good with final smashes off, that would just be a guarantee that Lucas would not be a viable character in this mode because his final smash sucks so he'd have to almost always earn his kills whereas Mario would just get a free one every time his meter filled. The removal of the insanely broken transformation final smashes balances some stuff out (like in Brawl, Falco's final smash was a basically guaranteed 2 stocks if used correctly which was insane) but it still doesn't seem likely to be balanced between the characters like... at all, and having this on would just impose a hard filter that characters with final smashes below a certain threshold of reliable landability would just instantly be bad. Enough other factors work to limit competitively viable characters; do you want another factor reducing the number of characters who see real play?
 
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Loki

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#6
No. As people have said, FS are in general to strong, oppresive and to add my own grain of sand to the discussion, not all FS are made equal. Some are stronger than others, some are easier to land than others. Bayo`s FS for example... global slow with instakill after a certain % mark... thats would be just the cherry on the pile of trash that is Bayo`s reputation right now. Imagine such power in 1v1 competitive gameplay.

No way jose FS are ever going to be tourney legal.
 

GUIGUI

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#7
(...)
3) They are still too strong. Covers too much of the screen, kills too early etc etc even when nerfed in damaged output. There is no way that a character working around their strengths/weaknesses to normally KO an opponent is on par with "click B button, cover screen with massive amount of damage just because the bar is filled". Doesn't look like Street Fighter or w/e where not only do you have to work to fill the bar, you have other things you can use the bar for as a tradeoff. (...)
It's basically giving Little Mac KO punch to everyone. I don't know if you have noticed, but most of those Final Smash need to land first to be activated, otherwise, they are just lost, like when Little Mac miss a KO punch.

There are also far less FS with area effects, and they have also tweaked those to be easier to dodge and be less powefull. Notice also, how they have removed all transformative FS.
 

GUIGUI

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#10
it mean final smashes hit harder than normal smash attacks but are much easier to actually land
As a matter of fact, not anymore, you might not have paid attention, but most FS now require that you hit the opponent with it first for it to come into effect. You miss and it's lost like a Little Mac KO Punch. That's for most of the FS. Like I said above, they have literally given everyone Litle Mac KO Punch. Some have a field effect, like Mario, Samus or Jigglypuff, bu they are in the minority, and it can be balnced by making thoe less powerfull
And again, just look at the difference in quality. That Lucas one just obviously sucks. It does a million damage but only hits right on top of Lucas so it's basically a souped up version of Pikachu's Thunder.
to add my own grain of sand to the discussion, not all FS are made equal.
The discrepancy of how effective a FS is can easily be balanced out with how fast tit take to charge it up.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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#11
As a matter of fact, not anymore, you might not have paid attention, but most FS now require that you hit the opponent with it first for it to come into effect. You miss and it's lost like a Little Mac KO Punch. That's for most of the FS. Like I said above, they have literally given everyone Litle Mac KO Punch. Some have a field effect, like Mario, Samus or Jigglypuff, bu they are in the minority, and it can be balnced by making thoe less powerfull


The discrepancy of how effective a FS is can easily be balanced out with how fast tit take to charge it up.
No, I was paying attention, and I know how they work in general. Most of them are like Meta Knight's and Ike's have traditionally been. That's not free to land but it's not anywhere as difficult as, say, landing MK or Ike fsmash. The difference between these is actually quite large; Meta Knight for instance is far, far worse off than Marth who very quickly can punish anything from full screen with final smash whereas MK has to be relatively close. Then you have like Mario's which actually is free and like Lucas's which is really bad. If the charging rates are different at all, which I doubt, how extreme do you think it would have to be? Lucas would have to get at least 3 in the time it takes for Mario to get 1 for that to be fair. Does that really seem realistic?
 
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#12
The Final Smashes are still stronger than KO Punch. KO Punch is also riskier because you lose it just be getting tapped into tumbling or if he takes longer than 4 seconds to try to use it. Final Smash charge you can hold forever (no Smashball that pops out if we're using the meter method) and force the opponent to play radically differently just because of the mere possibility that you'll use this stupidly powerful move.

So its more powerful while being less risky. No way no how. Not unless they get nerfed into absolute oblivion while not grabbed from a Smashball. Which does not appear to be the case in the direct.

Its frankly more obstructive than custom specials were in 4, and I argued for those to be included. Those barely got side tournaments.
 

GUIGUI

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#13
Lucas would have to get at least 3 in the time it takes for Mario to get 1 for that to be fair. Does that really seem realistic?
We don't know how effective Lucas's FS actually is, for now.

No matter what, it's clear a game with FS would require more stocks, which would make a slower charging FS meter more acceptable, even on 1 to 3.
 
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Fell God

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#14
I can't say for sure, on one hand, there is so much inconsistency in power and hitboxes, as well as activation (some can be avoided with a single dodge, others blanket the screen) that it seems unlikely. On the other hand, how cool would it be to watch Grand Finals end with a final smash?
 
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#15
They better be. They're easy to avoid and punish this time. Sakurai is even making sure they're more balanced and less KO-prone than Smash Ball versions. The competitive community needs to stop making excuses and start actually using the tools given to them. They're no different to Marvel Vs. Capcom hyper combos, which are equally screen filling as most final Smashes.
 

lucasla

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#17
I'm curious... if you collect the Smash Ball and get attacked, you have the chance to lose the Smash Ball and the possibility to give the Final Smash Attack. What will happen with this bar? If you fill the bar and you are ready to give a Final Smash any time, can you lose it if you are hit? You lose all the bar, half the bar..?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#18
It'll be interesting how the Final Smash meter will work out, but since a Final Smash that's executed that way will be less powerful, it might be tolerated more than having to hunt down Smash Balls.
 

lucasla

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#22
I think they should just add some interesting way to avoid a Final Smash attack. Maybe making the Perfect Shield one way you could totally defend a Final Smash and frustrate your opponent...
 

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#23
I think they should just add some interesting way to avoid a Final Smash attack. Maybe making the Perfect Shield one way you could totally defend a Final Smash and frustrate your opponent...
Considering that unblockable attacks pierce through shields, no matter what, that likely won't be happening.
 

nuclearneo577

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#25
As interesting as this sounds in theory, most likely not. The balance would shift far too much depending on how effective someone's final smash is.
 

GUIGUI

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#26
As interesting as this sounds in theory, most likely not. The balance would shift far too much depending on how effective someone's final smash is.
Like said before, the difference of effectiveness of the different FS could be balanced out by how fast it actually charge.
 
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jwillenn

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#27
In Nairo's stream, they brought up the idea of rolling building meter. It would seem this is true according to the footage. It would also seem unappealing WHILE operating under certain assumptions. We simply don't know the full truth about even that. For example. What IF Mario was only able to gain meter off the roll because he had escaped pressure (within a few frames of a hitbox, in this case, WFT's fwd smash)? What if the rules/details weren't finalized by time of the build used in the Direct? For all we know, in the finalized version of it, a "Rage" phase could mean faster gain of meter while it is absurdly slow gain throughout most of the stock. Maybe stale moves don't build meter. Maybe only some % of meter gained carries over after stock loss. Maybe use of FS comes with a trade-off such as faster shield deterioration. There's tons of stuff they can play with to make it interesting and far from a "win" button.

I said all of that to say I'd want more information about all things dealing with the meter and FS balance before saying I would/wouldn't like to see it for main 1 vs 1 tournaments. I do hope it's a strong addition to combat. If it strengthens gameplay and spectacle with fairness, I'm for it. So fingers crossed for something good here.
 
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#28
If Final Smashes are to be used in major tournaments, it first needs to be implemented as an optional event at locals. If the community likes it, then that meta can bleed into the major tournament scene. In other words, it should be slowly worked into the meta first.
 

Bozikins

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#29
As interesting as this sounds in theory, most likely not. The balance would shift far too much depending on how effective someone's final smash is.
Like said before, the difference of effectiveness of the different FS could be balanced out by how fast it actually charge.
Final Smash Meter - Nintendo Direct 8/8/2018 (starts at 16:29)

Fortunately/Unfortunately the meter appears to build rather quickly. Most characters appears to complete the meter around 70% which is starting to get in to KO range for MANY characters.

I think it should be said that the balance WILL shift with Final Smashes. Some characters WILL have more powerful or useful Final Smashes than others. However, how is that different than what we have now? Characters already have different move-sets. Some characters are already competitively better than others, that's why we have character tiers.

The way I see it, with Final Smash Meter enabled in Competitive play, there will be two play styles or schools of thought:

Group 1: A character is picked based on their ability to acquire KOs outside of their Final Smash. Think Bayonetta, Fox, Sheik. Their move-sets will not require Final Smashes to be competitively viable.

Group 2: A character is picked based on their ability to acquire KOs using their Final Smash. Thinking of Mario, Jigglypuff in this case. Maybe they are currently mid-tier or lower, but with a strong tool like a Final Smash, they can be competitively viable but in a different way from Group 1.

On one hand, based solely off of the footage from the Direct, the meter may build too quickly to be fair. Characters that have outstanding or over-powered Final Smashes will be able to use them often enough. The kicker is that the meter builds when giving and RECEIVING damage, but that too is way to balance this mechanic.
 

GUIGUI

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#30
What would be interr
Fortunately/Unfortunately the meter appears to build rather quickly. Most characters appears to complete the meter around 70% which is starting to get in to KO range for MANY characters.
What would be interesting is if the smash meter CARRY over stock death and that FS meter only got to be full after one or two stock lost, making that 70% less relevant.
 

link2702

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#31
I think it should be given a shot at side tournaments at least. It does seem like a lot of new mechanics revealed seem to be trying to get some elements to make smash a more competitive focused game, even if a lot fall flat, at the very least let’s see how they could work.
 
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#32
I see a lot of complaining about Marth killing Lucas at 20%, Final Smashes covering a lot of area, and so forth, but let's face it: the last two Smash games have had pretty significant problems with stocks just lasting too long due in part to slower match pace, but also due to there being fewer kill moves that are increasingly hard to land. If a more offensive game is desired, early kills with Final Smashes certainly won't hurt.

Additionally, Smash has the luxury of custom health in the form of stock counts. If killing at 20% happens every now and then, the stock count can go up to 3 or 4, and I guess Marth is top tier, but that's not really a huge issue in and of itself.

I'm not necessarily outright advocating that Final Smash meter be turned on, I just think it's way too early to say whether or not it's a good idea because we just don't know. If turning them on has a dramatic effect on character viability or creates more divides between character tiers (for example, Marth just always kills you at 20% making him SSS tier with meter on) then it's gotta go. But it's a little bit too early to call what kind of effect the meter would have on the game. We saw about ten seconds of pre-release footage recorded solely to make the game look as exciting and explosive as possible.

I think the idea of a final smash meter is great, but it has to be done right or at least pretty close to right.
 
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AIM0001

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#33
It depends on how long it takes for meters to charge. Also you might have to up the stocks atleast 1. It’s really hard to say. I’d be open to it because it would really differentiate the scene compared to Melee’s. Some people are obsessed with every new smash being Melee reborn. But we gotta try new things and be open to things like this given it’s fair and logical. Only time will tell.
 

Bozikins

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#34
Hungrybox posted this idea on Twitter and I think it sounds like a fantastic way to potentially incorporate some of the features other competitive players are shying away from already (rage, expanded stage lists as examples):

"Squad Strike Singles - A La MvC / DBZ Fighter 3v3,
one stock per character
Final Smash Meter ON (like a Super)
Omega/BF only"

Tournaments could have completely separate brackets for 1v1/2v2 Singles and 1v1 Squad Strike.
 

GUIGUI

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#35
"Squad Strike Singles - A La MvC / DBZ Fighter 3v3,
one stock per character
Final Smash Meter ON (like a Super)
Omega/BF only"
I am not sure why Squad should only have Omega and BF, but one thing is sure, if FS meter is on, 3v3 is not enough. 5v5 might be more appropriate, seeing Final Smash will likely consume stocks faster
 

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#36
With Final Smashes being less powerful in meter form, Lucas could've likely perfect-shielded Marth's FS.
Last I've checked, you can't perfect shield unblockable attacks, no matter how good your timing is. But most of them can't pierce through invincible/intangible frames.
 

TamaskaLEM

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#37
By the logic of that Squad Strike Singles match, it goes more along the lines of King of Fighters rather than DBFZ and MvC. The latter two fighting games rely heavily on assist and constant switch outs. To make this mode work, you would have to be able to switch the order of the characters popping up after both sides selected their fighters. Again, like King of Fighters and also Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. It would make a huge difference in making sure you're not so easily counter picked.

Everything else is fine, though I wonder if the amount of stocks should increase. I guess it does depends on the frequency of that final smash meter.
 
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gramkracka22

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#39
No way José

Giving every single person a big finishers just takes away from the game. Certain characters are balanced around being fast/strong but not the best at finishing and giving everyone some little mac KO move is shenanigans. Doesn't help Nintendo notoriously can't balance anything for the life of them. They appear to be off by default for a reason.
 
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