FINAL QUESTION for E for All Expo Attendees (Brawl: Failure or Success?)

[MikeMan445]

the new l-cancelling mechanic could easily reduce possibilities when approaching an opponent with an aerial, because players wanting to l-cancel will have to learn only one -(maybe two)- timings for short hop lag-cancelled aerials, as opposed to melee's options presented to characters like Samus or ganon (think samus' dair, and the alternate ways you can strike with that move... if you want to crash into someone's shield, Lag-cancel and shield bomb, there's really just going to be one speed for it in Brawl;( in melee, you could time that fastfall whenever you wish during the attack and still have the option to lag-cancel ); good smashers will learn these timings of their opponent's intended lag-cancelled aerials (because fewer options exist, therefore we have reduced breadth, therefore we have reduced depth) and i don't even know what the hell will happen after that. It will probably be more like SSB64 where everyone is so good that you *up once, you die.

At a competitive level in Melee, it's not like you would be facing anyone other than the top tier characters anyway. And for the top tier characters, things were so fast that there was basically only one timing to memorize depending on how you were positioning your shield. I think you're making assumptions when it is way too early to do so.

 

[malva00]

Yeah also since isai is the best SSB player and like never loses, doesn't that mean that SSB is even more competitive than melee?

dun dun dunnnnn

ur dum guy that doesn't mean anything I just think ssb is more fun

 

[peachori]

you dont need an e4a attendee to come in here and post, because odds are they're just going to tell you that they only played a demo. coming from 64, if you played melee for 4 days on 2-minute timed, items, and half the cast, would you say "wow this game is deep it will have a great competitive scene." yeah, didnt think so. its going to take us time to find how the games inner workings operate and that will tell us how deep the game actually is.

my real concern is that the game is delayed. which means that they'll probably work any and all bugs out and have the physics perform just as they like, which will lessen the possibility of us finding abusable tactics upon which to play the game. and seeing as how nintendo seemingly has no intention of catering to the competitive scene, we'll likely have to find such abuses if we want brawl to fill melee's void.

 

[MikeMan445]

ur dum guy that doesn't mean anything I just think ssb is more fun

no u







i was using his logic showing it was stupid, i think melee is more competitive

 

[Hydde]

We cant know for sure how deep is the game yet.

The truth is that it will take us a couple of months with the game in our hands to saya final verdict.

If you take in consideration the weird controllers, plus the few play time, plus the overall inexperience with the game... is almost impossible for someone to tell you if the game will have depth or not.

The lack of WD is a hard blow but who knows, maybe this new airdodge coupled with some fast falling can origin new mindgames and tactics..... we will need to wait to see.

 

[NES n00b]

LOL your assumption of me is cute. I do play on the hardcore side as well.

And the fact he asks if Brawl will be success or failure based on a science-****ed demo is no different from all the other topics concerning Brawl's so called 'slow down' speed.

Yeah, I make assumptions when someone uses "Waahh" in their post in whatever way. I see that way too often. It is weird to base everything on a demo and he did acknowledge it was demo. He just asked if there was anything that would imply depth. The answer is actually yes from how I see the impressions.

Anyways, everyone should wait and see.

 

[choknater]

Define failure and success!

Oh, you can't..!

I think Brawl will be a success. When this game comes out, it's really gonna take me back to the good old days when Melee was new...


- HRC and BtT world records (assuming BtT is still in)
with the new HRC, i bet i'm gonna be seeing some SICK videos
- 1-p mode world records in general
- competitive smash is not gonna die as long as this forum is active. as long as the smash engine is intact (which it is) and there is DI (which there is) and nothing is broken (since there's DI, fat chance of anything being broken) then competitive smash will not die, i'm sure of it. who cares about melee advanced techs... melee is outdated, people.
- ice climbers is still in the game which means choknater will dominate...

 

[Youkai Master]

Sakurai cant ask the best players because the best players are here and Sakurai's in Japan.

This is not true at all, they obviously have representatives that could work with the top Melee players in the US and then communicate the stuff to Sakurai's team. It's impossible that they're not aware of Melee being in the lineup of MLG or EVO, so I see no reason why they wouldn't reach out to the competitive scene more.

I really approve of the idea of contacting someone working with Brawl right now, hopefully his team in Japan directly or something, but it needs to be done NOW.
I see way too many suggestions (like M2K) but nothing concrete, something needs to be organized and well thought out quickly and be sent to them before it's too late. We've got nothing to lose...

 

[TaurToph]

Yeah, there are a few things you (and probably most people here) need to learn

1)Competitive=/=Hardcore: When Reggie says it's for the hardcore, he does not mean Smashboards. He means the people who play "higher games. The ones that would love Metroid Prime 3 and Twilight Princess. Not the people who can't stop playing Wii Sports. You guys are the Megacore. The people who need to find a new hobby. That take this game very highly. They aren't going to shot for you because your market is too small.

2)Focusing on only the Megacore=Failure: Like I said, the "Megacore" as I have termed it is to small. You made the example of Halo 3. Well, did you know it's now much easier to pick up and play Halo 3 then Halo 2? If you focus only on that one group of people, you won't sell. Sure, Mew2King and Tnga aren't going to buy the game know, but now so will a whole heck of a lot of people. Now the game works much easier for them. And, sadly for you, they are a much larger market.

3)Change is good: People fear this too much. Hack, I welcome it with open arms. It's a good thing. It prevents a game from becoming stagnant and will allow it to stay in rotation for a long long time.

4)Not all non-competitive players are n00bs: I really hate this statement. Just because you dedicate your life to it doesn't mean that everyone else is a n00b for A)Not knowing any of this BS or B)Because they don't care. That's what really irks me. Just because someone doesn't play like how you play doesn't make them any less then you. Actually, it makes them better as they aren't near as annoying about it.

Sorry if it's harsh. I feel many "competitive" players have a disillusion about Smash, and the reception of games.

You said everything. Thanks.

 

[Atlus8]

There is much more to Brawl that we found out at E for All. I think my friend and I were the only ones that actually bothered adding some cpu's and placing them at their higher level. We placed Mario at his highest level and he was all over the place.

 

[Youkai Master]

ur dum guy that doesn't mean anything I just think ssb is more fun

So Isai you went to E for All right? What did you think of brawl? =)

 

[choknater]

There is much more to Brawl that we found out at E for All. I think my friend and I were the only ones that actually bothered adding some cpu's and placing them at their higher level. We placed Mario at his highest level and he was all over the place.

Wow, cool, are CPUs tougher this time around?


I'm asking because I love teaming with lvl 9 Ganon in melee LMAO. I really enjoy the CPUs!

 

[Hydde]

One thing is sure... if Brawl fails to deliver,,,, not in a thousand times ill go back to melee. Its the end for me.

Ill playit fromt ime to time to have a good laugh but nothing in the way i play it now.
Brawl is the future, if it fails,, i will not want to be stuck in the past.

From what i have seen in Brawl, some players are more balanced, some nerfs has been brutal but not to the point to **** up someone... the lack of WD sukks but we will find new ways to play...

The core is there but with noticeable changes. Lets hope that Sakurai and co. know what they are doing and melee was not a "lucky shot"

 

[Atlus8]

Wow, cool, are CPUs tougher this time around?


I'm asking because I love teaming with lvl 9 Ganon in melee LMAO. I really enjoy the CPUs!

Well, we need to to understand that everyone is just getting started and cpu's are easily better than any human. Also, judging by the cpu's, speed can be taken to the level of melee.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

He doesn't mean actual hardcore gamers you know.

This IS Nintendo we're talking about.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nintendo is about the money people.

Also Isai and mikeman you two need to cool out.

I'm cool with both you guys IRL. Makes me sad that two of the coolest guys I know were going at it.

Also Nintendo would never do what Arc Systems (developers of Guilty Gear) or Capcom or other developers known for hardcore games do. That is to say, test thier games to hell and finhd every single exploit and then tweak it to balance it out. These guys actually cater to thehardcore scenes. Nintendo doesn't. This shouldn't be a surprise. Look at the amount of crap and casual stuff on the DS. Look at all the casual non-gamer games on the Wii and the DS. The stuff that looks like it could be an instructional video or a cartoon, etc. Brain age and coooking mama and what not. These are the games that are making Nintendo money. The DS is just chock full of bullcrap and the Wii is getting there. Nintendo is cashing in on the interactivity of it's games not the quality. This is the stuff that draws casuals in. So if the casuals are making them money, then wouldn't it make sense to cater to them and give them what they want.

Why would the second largest/richest/most influential company in Japan care about the people that don't make up the majority of thier market.

They care about the people that will make them rich.

Nothing more.

And yes, I think Brawl will kill the SBB competitive scene if it's not as competitive as Melee. That's usually how it goes. People look at the latest game and if it sucks competitively they just don't want to play any game in the series anymore.

Also more stuff then variable cancel killed Soul Caliber 3, but that was a big part of it.

Anyway, I'll be playing Soul Caliber 4 if Brawl sucks competitively.

So, even though I don't think Brawl will be as deep, I still have plans as a competitive gamer.

 

[spikehappy07]

Hydde is right. I'm not good at giving out points to an arguement, but I just gotta say, there will be new ways to throw off your opponent. Who knows? They'll probably leave in a glitch or two

 

[MikeMan445]

Nintendo is about the money people.

Also Isai and mikeman you two need to cool out.

I'm cool with both you guys IRL. Makes me sad that two of the coolest guys I know were going at it.

hehe we're not going at it isai's a cool dude

Also, everything else you said was pretty much spot on.

 

[maxpower1227]

1. In all other fighting games that have strong scenes the relationship between gamer and creator is constant. The creator understands that their most valuable customer is those who have devoted their lives to the game and not the causal gamer.

This pretty much sums up the ridiculousness of the thread. Those who "devote their lives to the game" are - aside from needing a serious priority readjustment - a VAST minority of the game's target audience. The "most valuable customer" is the one that generates the most revenue for the company.

.... I guess your right since we dont need to apply anything we learned in high school at college. <_<

Evidently not >_>

 

[Eternalfire]

Many, many people have said it plays like Melee so I don't think you have anything to worry about. More and more advanced tactics will be discovered and you will be amazed at the depth. Trust me...you don't have anything to worry about.

 

[maxpower1227]

Oh, and fixing the air dodge was not done to "remove depth" or to pander to the n00b/casual player. It was done to make the game's physics more realistic. Get over it.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Two words

Pros fears losing

Ouch: these are actually 3 words

OH, I just saw that this thread was ONLY for pro players. Ok, this board is going to be **** because of that elitism, seriously.

What's bad with being as equal as a noob? You will beat it with MINDGAMES, and not skill ****.

(looks at aniki)

 

[NES n00b]

Two words

Pros fears losing

Ouch: these are actually 3 words

LOL, try again.

I used to be worried about Brawl, but I was definitely not afraid of losing in Brawl and I am not even Pro. lol Stay tuned for the epic showdown of Ogre_Diety_Link vs NES n00b. Casual vs low end advance tech player both have two weeks to learn things in the game. Even though I will lose alot of advance techs and lose game knowledge, I will still have the "mindgames" of Melee so I am fairly confident. XD

Self promotion wins. Seriously though, nobody is afraid of losing. Why would anyone think that?

Edit: I can see afraid of change but losing?

 

[BigRick]

This is not true at all, they obviously have representatives that could work with the top Melee players in the US and then communicate the stuff to Sakurai's team. It's impossible that they're not aware of Melee being in the lineup of MLG or EVO, so I see no reason why they wouldn't reach out to the competitive scene more.

I really approve of the idea of contacting someone working with Brawl right now, hopefully his team in Japan directly or something, but it needs to be done NOW.
I see way too many suggestions (like M2K) but nothing concrete, something needs to be organized and well thought out quickly and be sent to them before it's too late. We've got nothing to lose...

Lol either nintendo doesn't know about MLG or EVO... or simply doesn't care. Or else these events would be sponspored by them.

And yes, I think Brawl will kill the SBB competitive scene if it's not as competitive as Melee. That's usually how it goes. People look at the latest game and if it sucks competitively they just don't want to play any game in the series anymore.

Anyway, I'll be playing Soul Caliber 4 if Brawl sucks competitively.

So, even though I don't think Brawl will be as deep, I still have plans as a competitive gamer.

And I will be playing Accent Core...

****, nobody plays Accent Core!

 

[Steel Braxus]

Smash bros is meant to be a simple and fun game. The 'hardcore competative' gamers like you are few and far between compared to the amount of regular player.

 

[yoshi_fan]

LOL, try again.

I used to be worried about Brawl, but I was definitely not afraid of losing in Brawl and I am not even Pro. lol Stay tuned for the epic showdown of Ogre_Diety_Link vs NES n00b. Casual vs low end advance tech player both have two weeks to learn things in the game. Even though I will lose alot of advance techs and lose game knowledge, I will still have the "mindgames" of Melee so I am fairly confident. XD

Self promotion wins. Seriously though, nobody is afraid of losing. Why would anyone think that?

Edit: I can see afraid of change but losing?

It was only a bad joke i saw on the simpsons, and i changed the word to pro... meh never mind.

But i had read this post of M2k... and i'm starting to being SICK of this elitism.

10,000 matches isn't a lot at all I've played 5000 hours and countless times more than 10,000 matches, you need GOOD players to test it, the GOOD players are the ones who know what they are talking about. We need smart people like King to talk to them so they realize what a mistake this is..

Yeah, he says that sakurai needs HIM for making the game... oh yeah, try again M2K

Edit: Oh my bad... i messed the word losing with change... i was talking by msn about this topic and some guy sayed me that HE WAS GONNA BE BEATEN BY THE NOOBS (but he didn't put any emoticons) AND HE WASN'T GONNA GET MONEY FROM TOURNAMENTS, and i messed there. Sorry

I mean really pros are afraid of change.

And please, clarify in the first post and change "Directional air dodge" with "Wavedashing", because air dodge in the competitive scene and casual scene ISN'T usad (because is a too small dodge to being that useful)

Edit 2: Messed up again. M2k was talking about other master. I'm very sorry U_U... but anyways is too elitist with "I have over 5000 hours" >

Edit 3: Final thoughts: I think is deeper.

-More balancing means more strategy in the competitive scene
-New techs added (and many of them were doing by CPU like ink dropping or the "dash cancel")
-Overall new system: you are Koed a higher percentages and the DI works better. More aerial orientes, and combo oriented.

 

[maxpower1227]

lol Stay tuned for the epic showdown of Ogre_Diety_Link vs NES n00b. Casual vs low end advance tech player both have two weeks to learn things in the game. Even though I will lose alot of advance techs and lose game knowledge, I will still have the "mindgames" of Melee so I am fairly confident. XD

I'm not sure if this is what you're implying, but I get the sense among competitive Smash players that "mindgames" is some kind of skill exclusive to Smash Bros, and those that play SSBM competitively have some sort of inate advantage over those who don't. "Mindgames" as you (collectively) call it is a fairly general term for any attempt to grab a mental edge in a game. It can be learned just as well from basketball as it can from SSBM.

 

[Blatherskite]

The ability to do anything out of an air dodge compensates for the inability to direct it. Depth has probably been added in this case.

 

[NES n00b]

I'm not sure if this is what you're implying, but I get the sense among competitive Smash players that "mindgames" is some kind of skill exclusive to Smash Bros, and those that play SSBM competitively have some sort of inate advantage over those who don't. "Mindgames" as you (collectively) call it is a fairly general term for any attempt to grab a mental edge in a game. It can be learned just as well from basketball as it can from SSBM.

Exactly. . . . . . . . . . . playing competitively forces you to learn to observe your opponent more to win.

In other words, playing against lots of people with different styles and really good at this game > than playing against the same 5 friends.

Believe me, you won't have that great of mindgames if you only play against 5 people all the time unless those 5 people play against alot of different people themselves.

Above is what I am implying. Mindgames are in everything competitive, but Smashers who go to tournies have more of it than casuals due to training to use them.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

I went to E for All so here's my impression.

It seems to me that Nintendo wants to lessen the importance of execution oriented skill in the game. What I mean by this is it wants the game to still have as much strategic depth as it can, but for the implementation of those strategies to be as accessible as possible. I think the change to automatic l-canceling demonstrates this philosophy quite strongly, as well as the automatic ledge-snaping and removal of the need to face the ledge. One could also say wavedashing was nixed due to this philosophy (since many people claim its very difficult to perform) buts that's just conjecture since the its removal was a consequence of the new dodging type.

My impression? I'm scared. I don't know if increased depth added by new characters and probably better balance of all the characters will make up for the blows done to the competitiveness of the game by the removal of the execution-oriented techniques I mentioned above, even only considering the strategic options they allowed (wavedashing helping many characters, allowing for spacing and mindgames; Ledge facing helping Mario/Doc, etc.).

Has anyone else heard of response to a demo/beta of a new competitive game where the best players responses weren't "omg this will be awesome" but "lets give it time?"?

BTW, Valoem's totally right, I played a lot of SC and SCII but no one I've met really plays SCIII. Now I play none of them. I hope this isn't the fate of smash.

 

[valoem]

the reason people are replying that didn't go to e4a is because his post is really long for asking a question, and parts of his post is very controversial.

If he didn't have such assumptions as "i came to smashboards for the competitive scene, and im' sure most of you did the same"(or something like that....i didn't bother copying it) than he wouldn't get all these 'off topic posts'

he really could have worded it better, maybe saying "i came to smashboards for the competitive scene, and there are a lot of people here that did the same" than maybe people wouldn't respond to him

another thing he basically said(again could be wrong" if brawl isn't competetice than we wasted all our time on melee for nothing"

well if melee was the last ssb, than would you not get it cause it would 'be a waste of your time?', what he said basically made no sense and deserved someone correcting him

and this is a forum, it's not off topic if it has to do with what the op said,

say if someone made a topic asking

"wow i can't wait until next april when brawl comes out.....did you guys reserve your copy"
would you get angry if someone corrected this person, and would you consider the person that corrected him being off-topic?

Actually I said most not ALL people who come to smashboards came because they are good or want to get better. I spoke unbiasly and didnt assume anything. I like how a person with 6 posts who joined this month thinks he know the community better then people who have been here for years.

It seems all the competitive players agree with me which is excatly what I was looking for.

I think that most of what the OP said is bull, a game doesn't have to take a long time and alot of fancy button skills to master to be a great competative game, now melee does and still is a great competative game, but those arent requirements. Furthermore, if a game has a scene where there is no clear "best Player" but instead has many different players winning, is that a MORE COMPETATIVE game than one where whoever has better finger work is crowned the best and no one can beat him untill they get there button rotation better? 'cause melee is getting to that point right now: the players are becoming so technically skilled that they are finding quicker and better ways to perform their tech skill that they will just jockey for position and start up their perfect button rotations that no amount of DI can stop and then they win, that's not competative, thats just shallow with a lot of weeds to chop down.

from what im seeing brawl is more competative that Melee. With the exception of wavedashing, every tech skill has returned, yes some have changed slightly how you do them, but not in any way that removes depth. If a tech skill now has more options as to how to apply it doesn't that make the game deeper? and if something like canceling becomes more about timing than just pressing a button doesn't that add depth? Now you have to preform L-canceling perfectly to get anything out of it, before as long as you pressed L reasonbly close to when you hit the ground you cut down lag, now you have to fastfall THEN do your arial and you cancel all lag, if you don't do your arial the second you fastfall then you'll see alot of empty short hops just like you can see some empy lazers from Falco if you don't time your SHL perfectly. Whats not deep about that?

Why, also, do you require a huge learning curve and a long amount of time to master for a game to be competative, if every one reaches the peak of tech skill rather quickly wont the acctual strategy of the game come into play more? which would in turn make it more competative? Instead of it being who ever messes up an adv tech skill? that's not strategy, thats kind of a crap shoot acctually.

I'm just tired of people getting all mad and depressed because the game is acctually getting deepre than button skills, the tech skill is still there if not more, but the game is evolving, its the evolution of Smash and we shouldn't be afraid of it, the Depth is there, its just not apparent from the Melee looking glass that we are currently looking through.

Keep in mind I said this thread was an opinion I wanted e for all attendees to give there thoughts because they had first hand experience. I do disagrees what you said. Your saying that the game is deeper now because there is no tech skill? So instead of having to practice and make sure you l cancel properly all you have to do is mind games? Now you only have to worry about one thing instead of 2. Instead of have to worry about strategy and tech skill you only have to worry about strategy. The game is therefore half is difficult to master. Also tech skill adds a lot more strategy because it give you more options of what you can do.

Oh, and fixing the air dodge was not done to "remove depth" or to pander to the n00b/casual player. It was done to make the game's physics more realistic. Get over it.

Wow impressive I had no idea so that's why they did it!! Cause smash is suppose to be realistic fighter right?

I went to E for All so here's my impression.

It seems to me that Nintendo wants to lessen the importance of execution oriented skill in the game. What I mean by this is it wants the game to still have as much strategic depth as it can, but for the implementation of those strategies to be as accessible as possible. I think the change to automatic l-canceling demonstrates this philosophy quite strongly, as well as the automatic ledge-snaping and removal of the need to face the ledge. One could also say wavedashing was nixed due to this philosophy (since many people claim its very difficult to perform) buts that's just conjecture since the its removal was a consequence of the new dodging type.

My impression? I'm scared. I don't know if increased depth added by new characters and probably better balance of all the characters will make up for the blows done to the competitiveness of the game by the removal of the execution-oriented techniques I mentioned above, even only considering the strategic options they allowed (wavedashing helping many characters, allowing for spacing and mindgames; Ledge facing helping Mario/Doc, etc.).

Has anyone else heard of response to a demo/beta of a new competitive game where the best players responses weren't "omg this will be awesome" but "lets give it time?"?

BTW, Valoem's totally right, I played a lot of SC and SCII but no one I've met really plays SCIII. Now I play none of them. I hope this isn't the fate of smash.

very interesting read. Glad to finally get some e for all input

 

[mushroomedmario]

Actually I said most not ALL people who come to smashboards came because they are good or want to get better. I spoke unbiasly and did assume anything. I like how a person with 6 posts who joined this month thinks he know the community better then people who have been here for years.

It seems all the competitive players agree with me which is excatly what I was looking for.



Keep in mind I said this thread was an opinion I wanted e for all attendees to give there thoughts because they had first hand experience. I do disagrees what you said. Your saying that the game is deeper now because there is no tech skill? So instead of having to practice and make sure you l cancel properly all you have to do is mind games? Now you only have to worry about one thing instead of 2. Instead of have to worry about strategy and tech skill you only have to worry about strategy. The game is therefore half is difficult to master. Also tech skill adds a lot more strategy because it give you more options of what you can do.



Wow impressive I had no idea so that's why they did it!! Cause smash is suppose to be realistic fighter right?

well i didn't say you were wrong, i said you said something controversial

 

[Bendu]

Also tech skill adds a lot more strategy because it give you more options of what you can do.

You say this and continue to use L-Canceling as an example. That may be true for things like wavedashing, but with L-Canceling it's just not quite that way. Because L-Canceling is just a means to reduce your lag, and if you can do it then you have an advantage because you're faster, but if your opponent can do it then you're on the same level again. It's just a barrier, it's not a real skill that opens options and needs to be learned to be used in strategic instances like the wavedash.

So basically, taking away L-Canceling just takes away that rather annoying barrier. Even though sure, it means it takes less time to "master teh game" maybe there will be more legitimate skills to master in Brawl that aren't as niche and are more useful (in strategic terms) than the L-Cancel.

 

[Kittah4]

So basically, taking away L-Canceling just takes away that rather annoying barrier. Even though sure, it means it takes less time to "master teh game" maybe there will be more legitimate skills to master in Brawl that aren't as niche and are more useful (in strategic terms) than the L-Cancel.

Exactly. L-Cancelling, as a skill, is like pressing the control stick all the way over to run rather than pressing it halfway to do a little tiptoe. Who ever uses the tiptoe? Thus, it should (or could) be removed with little consequence. Who would ever attack with an L-Cancel and WANT more lag? Pressing an analog button with each jump to reduce your lag by half is counter-intuitive. What if you could do this with standing attacks too? Though you cant in melee, you'd have to L-Cancel EVERY ATTACK to be at the top of your game. Don't you see how complex and tiring that would be?

I'm interested in the NEW L-Cancelling though, because its risk vs reward. Either you get less time to pull your attack out, or you get more lag. The Melee L-Cancelling is not risk vs reward.

 

[Doggalina]

I'm interested in the NEW L-Cancelling though, because its risk vs reward. Either you get less time to pull your attack out, or you get more lag. The Melee L-Cancelling is not risk vs reward.

I don 't see the risk to Short Hopping, Fast Falling, and then attacking. You'll still get out the air move (which are generally fast and strong) as fast as possible. In Melee, if you just SH, and don't FF or LC, you have more time, too.

 

[Star105]

alright to add fuel to the fire allow me to say my 5 cents

fighting games (including smash) is all about strategies.(in my opinion)

to win the games you need to play the game and try strategies in order to best the opponents strategies.

for n00bs and beginners they usually stick with basic strategies (normal A attacks the occasional roll and smashes and shielding) that allows them to play the game and have fun trying the easy strategies. they usually don't try to develop new and complex strategies but stick with what works. (i'm in this category)

for competitive/ advanced players they are usually trying to develop new techniques and try to come up with new and better strategies to overtake the competition. this also comes with consistently playing the game to get the measure of what isn't possible and the speed at which you can improve. they find (usually by accident) and develop advanced techniques to use on the field. they also have to be quick to adapt to the situation in order to keep their strategies in place. and they have to have other ways of doing things in order to keep up with other people in the competition. but this category involves adaption time and trying and testing new techniques and strategies. this usually contains the top layers who can keep trying new strategies and adapting old strategies. but for these people to get good and play competitively they have to keep changing and learn new ways of doing things.

now brawl is a new field with some similiar elements, the physics engine seems to make some Advanced strategies easier and get rid of some old strategies but retains similiar gameplay. competition now has a new field to develop new strategies and keep adjusting as more and more variables come on the field. to be "advanced or expert" people have to account for uncontrollable variables (items, stage hazards, shape of stages, certain types of terrain,....... ect..ect..ect..) and learn to adjust when something goes wrong in their strategies (yes i know they try to choose stages with little to no stage hazards and turn off items).

now try not to be so.......... oh whats the word?................ oh yeah

nostalgic

now old strategies are good and advanced strategies are great but don't try to use old advanced techniques to define whether you're good or not. try to see brawl as instead as a game that doesn't get rid of the depth of the previous game and instead see it as a opportunity to try new strats and don't rely on old techniques to determine if u are a competitive player. (now don't think im saying that get rid of old techniques because they are worthless im saying don't rely on them too much and try to find new techniques to take its place or be better in brawl).

Now brawl will be a great game and competitive players will find new and more advanced techniques to play competitions with but don't think that just because some techniques are made easier or are gone it will remove the depth of the game........ in fact the game (at this point) has MORE depth because there are more glitches/ exploits and secrets to uncover so don't think that brawl will result in a loss of indepth competitions.

rant over sry its very long

also didn't i hear a rumor that the people who are working on Brawl have played melee for a long time and are very good at it so i think that brawl will get alot of guidence from melee players even if some advanced strats are removed or made easier. also isn't that what makes the game more fun?............... creating new techniques and seeing them being executied and finding out secrets and getting more rewards for it? if not well... thats your opinion

well try to have fun with brawl and i see it as a fresh start for a great game.

 

[RedKnight]

I think this is a good point. Though Ive never had the skill to be a competitive Smasher, especially since I did not even find much interest in the game until not too long ago, I WANT to be capable of becoming a pro, or at least an above average player. If this game isn't good enough to attract and sustain a competitive community , how can I ever reach that goal.

Ive got to say, that after thinking about it, it makes me all the happier that Brawl supports online play, but all the more dissapointed that there is no rankings or anything like that.

Despite all this though, from what Ive seen so far, Brawl will be an AMAZING game

 

[ColossalSmurf]

I figure I'll get bashed for not having any posts up until now, and for joining today, but none the less..

Wow impressive I had no idea so that's why they did it!! Cause smash is suppose to be realistic fighter right?

I've been lurking about and seeing this answer get thrown around a few times. I would really like to add that just because a game's concept might be a little unrealistic and off the wall doesn't mean it can't use realistic physics.
as far as the subject at hand, I have read in a few posts that the game is fun. And in the end, isn't that what a game is supposed to be?
now that isn't to say that you "pro"/"advanced"/ " competitive" players are not entitled to your concerns, and all seem pretty valid. Yet, I agree that Melee's "depth" was not completely on purpose.
In my opinion, ( which I doubt any of you really care about) the game looks fantastic, and I'm really looking forward to it. However, if when the game is released and those of you with concerns decide that it is not as "deep" and it is not as competitive, then hate it if you want to.
It won't stop me from enjoying it. But I'll be sad should the competitive scene vanish because the game isn't quite like its predecessor.. but hey. We don't all like change.

 

[Salaad]

Idc, Brawl will be a fun party game and competitive game.

 

[gnosis]

I don 't see the risk to Short Hopping, Fast Falling, and then attacking. You'll still get out the air move (which are generally fast and strong) as fast as possible. In Melee, if you just SH, and don't FF or LC, you have more time, too.

Since you can't fast fall until you reach the peak of your jump, you'd also have to wait that long to get the attack out. Meaning you can't do a rising attack, and you're vulnerable on the way up if you want to l-cancel in Brawl. Thus, do you risk the lag afterwards, or the vulnerability beforehand?

In Melee, you could attack at any point and still shave off lag at the end. L-canceling was something you always did no matter what; in Brawl, you'll have to decide between l-canceling or getting the attack out sooner.