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FGD~ Time to get SHTL done

Zephil

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
945
Location
Panama, Panama
You didn't even mention glide attack, Fox's weight being really low, Mk's ability to plank, and Fox's predictable recovery. He can recover by grabbing edge or landing on stage. Mk's usually cover one to punish the other.

The matchup is not even otherwise we'd see more Fox's beating all the Mk's. The only Fox I ever see beat top Mk's is TKD who AlSO HAS NEVER versed M2k in tourney.

I see no Fox's beating Overswarm, Kel, M2k, Dojo, Shadow, Dmbrandon, Seibrik, Omni, Korn, Atomsk, Anti, and/or Orion.

No, because the matchup is too much work and the more work required just to punish Mk and beat him, reflects the difficulty of the matchup. I think Fox vs Mk is 40-60 or 45-55 at best. You guys fail to realize that when Mk "gets in" he does a ****load of damage for one fail punish by Fox.
1. Saying planking destroys Fox is like saying that Falco also doesn't have a chance. Planking is horrible for Fox but is the same with almost the rest of the roster and all the other matches even with MK say the same thing: to win you need to get the lead. If MK is on the lead you are doing it wrong.

2. Fox recovery is not predictable, not even close. We have shine to stall and wait for the perfect time to recover. We have foxcopter, illusion, illusion cancel, firefox, and combining them makes Fox's recovery unpredictable.

3. When MK enters is not a ****load of damage for one fail compare to the stupid amount of damage we do when we punish.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Suddenly MK discussion!
- lol at mk plank. fox should be in the lead if the MU is played correctly
I don't ever like this argument. This is one of the most uncompetitive things you can hear. "If you fall behind, you lose"
Comebacks are one of the things that make competition interesting.

That said, I think this matchup is pretty good, which is why I much much prefer to use Fox vs MK instead of using Kirby. The only difficulty I find in this matchup is landing a kill, and of course planking is ungodly risky to combat as Fox. Luckily, people aren't robots and don't plank all day (usually)

What are we talking about, again?
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
2. Fox recovery is not predictable, not even close. We have shine to stall and wait for the perfect time to recover. We have foxcopter, illusion, illusion cancel, firefox, and combining them makes Fox's recovery unpredictable.
Not one of those actually makes it harder to counter or predict. A good player would simply outwait any of those until you actually need to recover. Since they're just waiting, they can easily punish any premature recoveries.

Here's what you mean to be arguing:

There are 2 times when it is impossible to cover all fox's recovery options

1. When there's a platform you can illusion to, you can illusion and either go to it, or cancel and go to the edge. You can cover 1 but not both.

2. When you still have your double jump left, you can fall toward the height of the edge. At this point, they either need to commit to covering the edge or covering the stage because fox can either illusion to the edge, or double jump and quickly illusion just above the edge. Again, they can cover one but not both.

tl;dr: don't list random things that can buy you more time that don't make it any harder to edgeguard as things that make it harder to edgeguard fox. Actually use the strats that fox can guarantee a 1/2 of getting correct.

edit/PS: I've been out of the metagame for too long to even know which players are good anymore, so I'm not going to argue about how MK is favored against fox, but you can bet your cobblenockers that it's in MKs favor, else there'd be more foxes being used (I'm assuming that still no one plays fox)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'd like to see Kain vs. M2K if TKD managed to win.

I dunno though. M2K had that MU freak out so he may be better at it now. He hasn't mentioned Wolf as being a MK counter yet, so I'd take my chances with Kain. xD
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
I'd like to see Kain vs. M2K if TKD managed to win.

I dunno though. M2K had that MU freak out so he may be better at it now. He hasn't mentioned Wolf as being a MK counter yet, so I'd take my chances with Kain. xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqRH0dA_VE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Bw_K2XUYU
What is the ratio for Wolf vs MK?
At low levels it's 40-60, but when you learn the matchup like I have, it's 45-55. Will never be even with planking legal and Mk's ability to rack endless damage quickly. Wolf can avoid a lot of traps with shine though and he never dies till around 170% normally.

M2k lost to me in friendlies 2-0 at Apex and beat me at Mlg Dc 1-2. He says Wolf is Mk 's hardest matchup...
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
4,285
Whos Tantalus...?

Anyway, aside from my clear lack of knowledge of players. Do any of you aside from NKB watch anime? Preferably not the commerical rubbish?
 

4Biddin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
369
Location
MC/West Lafayette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqRH0dA_VE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Bw_K2XUYU


At low levels it's 40-60, but when you learn the matchup like I have, it's 45-55. Will never be even with planking legal and Mk's ability to rack endless damage quickly. Wolf can avoid a lot of traps with shine though and he never dies till around 170% normally.

M2k lost to me in friendlies 2-0 at Apex and beat me at Mlg Dc 1-2. He says Wolf is Mk 's hardest matchup...
M2K thinks everyone is a hard MU for MK because he doesn't want MK to get banned so he'll say stuff like "Oh yea this MU is totally bad for MK ....LULZ(Not really I just don't want MK banned)"

Lol yea and idk why people post old vids of people because 9 times outta 10 that person is better than that currently. I think the oldest vids someone should post of somone should be like 2 months old no more than that.

But yea imo the Wolf MK MU is probaly 6:4 MK

Especially if the MK plays the MU regularly

EDIT: Just read the NAKAT Comments

Alright so here is my perspective on the MK FOX MU

If the MK actually KNOWS that MU it is a completely different ball game.
I play my roommates MK(Yes his MK is good and he has taken out other well known MK mains) regularly and I have to say the difficulty increases DRASTICALLY
Let it be known that I still believe its 50:50 but if you ever meet a MK who really KNOWS that MU as in they have hella experience aganist fox and know his attributes just as well as you....be prepared to get wrecked if you aren't prepared.

MK's back roll is GDLK in the MU and makes it really difficult to land dairs
MK's f-tilt mix ups can wreak havok on you.
MK's shuttle loop will literally destroy your stock if your jumps get predictable
MK's tornadoe can be used effectively against fox although it still has risks if the MK is at killing percentage
Stay grounded for to long and dash attacks mixed with tilt and fair/nair/dair mixups will be annoying

What im saying is that MK has so many different play styles and fox has counters to almost all of those.
But if the MK has discovered how to play the fox MU it will be reallly really hard

still 50:50 though :)

EDIT: Mk's don't know the fox MU that well thats why we beat them

Here is a mental picture
This is FD and I will have the spacing for Fox and Mk and where it typically is


******FOX*********************MK*******
_______________________________________

With this Fox can react to every one of MK's approaches and punish accordingly

Now here is where the MK should be

**********FOX*******MK****************
______________________________________


Also MK loses at this zone as well

*************FOX**MK******************
______________________________________


Addresses the second graph: As you can see the both are so close the is almost little time to reach to each others movements

Fox is now restricted to ONLY single lasers his farthest reaching move is dash attack and f-tilt and jab
This range is ideal for both chars but if the fox or meta does not know how to play at this range one of them will end up getting wreaked...badly

At the first distance it is actually in foxes favor because he is able to punish ANY approach that meta decides to do while still being able to get off 3 lazers.

Check out this vid and look at the MK's spacing in the first match....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SHW-czJIvA

As you can see the MK gets his **** wreaked because he play at the range that is foxes favor and all his approaches are punished.

Now Be@st and I play the MU at the second position which is where the MU really gets interesting.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
4Biddin, with that Logic, Wolf has an advantage on damn near every character. lol

@Killerjawz: Tantalus is in the BBR.
 

Exceladon City

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
6,037
Location
The Lonesome Crowded Midwest
M2K thinks everyone is a hard MU for MK because he doesn't want MK to get banned so he'll say stuff like "Oh yea this MU is totally bad for MK ....LULZ(Not really I just don't want MK banned)"

Lol yea and idk why people post old vids of people because 9 times outta 10 that person is better than that currently. I think the oldest vids someone should post of somone should be like 2 months old no more than that.

But yea imo the Wolf MK MU is probaly 6:4 MK

Especially if the MK plays the MU regularly

EDIT: Just read the NAKAT Comments

Alright so here is my perspective on the MK FOX MU

If the MK actually KNOWS that MU it is a completely different ball game.
I play my roommates MK(Yes his MK is good and he has taken out other well known MK mains) regularly and I have to say the difficulty increases DRASTICALLY
Let it be known that I still believe its 50:50 but if you ever meet a MK who really KNOWS that MU as in they have hella experience aganist fox and know his attributes just as well as you....be prepared to get wrecked if you aren't prepared.

MK's back roll is GDLK in the MU and makes it really difficult to land dairs
MK's f-tilt mix ups can wreak havok on you.
MK's shuttle loop will literally destroy your stock if your jumps get predictable
MK's tornadoe can be used effectively against fox although it still has risks if the MK is at killing percentage
Stay grounded for to long and dash attacks mixed with tilt and fair/nair/dair mixups will be annoying

What im saying is that MK has so many different play styles and fox has counters to almost all of those.
But if the MK has discovered how to play the fox MU it will be reallly really hard

still 50:50 though :)

EDIT: Mk's don't know the fox MU that well thats why we beat them

Here is a mental picture
This is FD and I will have the spacing for Fox and Mk and where it typically is


******FOX*********************MK*******
_______________________________________

With this Fox can react to every one of MK's approaches and punish accordingly

Now here is where the MK should be

**********FOX*******MK****************
______________________________________


Also MK loses at this zone as well

*************FOX**MK******************
______________________________________
As you can see the both are so close the is almost little time to reach to each others movements

Fox is now restricted to ONLY single lasers his farthest reaching move is dash attack and f-tilt and jab
This range is ideal for both chars but if the fox or meta does not know how to play at this range one of them will end up getting wreaked...badly

At the first distance it is actually in foxes favor because he is able to punish ANY approach that meta decides to do while still being able to get off 3 lazers.

Check out this vid and look at the MK's spacing in the first match....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SHW-czJIvA

As you can see the MK gets his **** wreaked because he play at the range that is foxes favor and all his approaches are punished.

Now Be@st and I play the MU at the second position which is where the MU really gets interesting.
My playstyle with MK doesn't work on Fox. I'd rather just go Sonic and play footsies.

I also have ICs. So yeah...
 

4Biddin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
369
Location
MC/West Lafayette
Oh yea and I think we need to move on from MK he is old new we should all be ****** MK now.

We need to talk about SNAKE NEXT :awesome:

That MU is rarely discussed
 

4Biddin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
369
Location
MC/West Lafayette


My playstyle with MK doesn't work on Fox. I'd rather just go Sonic and play footsies.

I also have ICs. So yeah...
Fox v. Sonic footsies LOL

Thats an interesting picture

Fox wins at

***************FOX**SONIC*****************

Also wins at

**FOX********************************SONIC**

And Also wins at

**************FOX***********SONIC************

EDIT: OH and this deff needs to be a MU discussion because all the other threads are deaaaaaad
 

NAKAT

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
2,436
Location
In Belleville NJ, with Leap of Faith
4biddin I play my boys P_wii and Jbandrew all the time both on the honorable mentions in NJ. They come over regularly and I have to say that they know Fox and better yet my playstyle so well it is so hard to pull through and beat them. I mean I am still able to do it, but that **** aint easy anymore. I ended up playing P_wii and tournament. I won 2-0 but they went to last hit it was so aggravating.
 

Exceladon City

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
6,037
Location
The Lonesome Crowded Midwest
Fox v. Sonic footsies LOL

Thats an interesting picture

Fox wins at

***************FOX**SONIC*****************

Bias. This could go either way. Fox does have the better CQC. Sonic has the better grab game. So it's whoever can fault the other first. If Sonic gets the grab in, pretty damaging follow-ups will come. Fox gets the jabs in, then it's gonna hurt.

Also wins at

**FOX********************************SONIC**

Sonic can play this from stock lead. Realistically speaking, Sonic isn't gonna be here very much at all unless he's camping with the lead.

And Also wins at

**************FOX***********SONIC************

Why would I be there?

EDIT: OH and this deff needs to be a MU discussion because all the other threads are deaaaaaad
Answers in red. It's a fast paced match. That happens to last a while because neither one is trying to whiff ANYTHING. Heavy punisher :fox: vs Fluid Punisher :sonic:

I feel it's 50:50/55:45 Fox. Jenkins' ******* is like 60:40 Sonic. I lol'd outrageously.
 

4Biddin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
369
Location
MC/West Lafayette
4biddin I play my boys P_wii and Jbandrew all the time both on the honorable mentions in NJ. They come over regularly and I have to say that they know Fox and better yet my playstyle so well it is so hard to pull through and beat them. I mean I am still able to do it, but that **** aint easy anymore. I ended up playing P_wii and tournament. I won 2-0 but they went to last hit it was so aggravating.
Yea I was wondering, I know that the MU is alllllot harder when people know what to do.
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
Oh yea and I think we need to move on from MK he is old new we should all be ****** MK now.

We need to talk about SNAKE NEXT :awesome:

That MU is rarely discussed
This matchup I do believe is even or Snake's favor 55-45.
Answers in red. It's a fast paced match. That happens to last a while because neither one is trying to whiff ANYTHING. Heavy punisher :fox: vs Fluid Punisher :sonic:

I feel it's 50:50/55:45 Fox. Jenkins' ******* is like 60:40 Sonic. I lol'd outrageously.
Fox beats Sonic probably slightly. The only reason Sonic can have an easier time vs Fox is because he out runs him and Fox is super light.
 

Exceladon City

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
6,037
Location
The Lonesome Crowded Midwest
This matchup I do believe is even or Snake's favor 55-45.


Fox beats Sonic probably slightly. The only reason Sonic can have an easier time vs Fox is because he out runs him and Fox is super light.
I've always hated the Snake match-up with Fox.

Fox vs Sonic is a momentum based match-up. Whoever gets the momentum first tends to do work. Either one of them can get it back from the other, it's just uphill for the both of them. The punish game they put on each other is ridiculous.
 

Zephil

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
945
Location
Panama, Panama
Whos Tantalus...?

Anyway, aside from my clear lack of knowledge of players. Do any of you aside from NKB watch anime? Preferably not the commerical rubbish?
I am a crazy otaku like NKB... Actually I just finished watching the last episodes released from the anime I am watching
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I watch anime. Just finished struggling through Haruhi Suzumiya Season 2. The last few episodes were good, but that endless eight.....ugh.

Also LOVING FMA: Brotherhood.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
Ehh I don't like that argument. That's basically saying that anyone who beat or got close to beating M2K was luck.
This is the 2nd most incorrect statement I've read all day (I've already read several times that F11 is how to hide the address bar in chrome). Not knowing a Matchup is 100% a skill based thing, sure it's lucky that it was M2K who didn't know that matchup very well vs someone of a lower caliber, but it's not luck that won the guy any games over M2K.

Whos Tantalus...?

Anyway, aside from my clear lack of knowledge of players. Do any of you aside from NKB watch anime? Preferably not the commerical rubbish?
I am probably one of the larger watchers of Anime on here. Or at least I have the most. 1.24TB and counting. Can't wait for the Blu Ray box set of Ga Rei Zero to be released in NA in February.



===================

Side note: does anyone know how to hide the address bar/toolbar in Chrome in windowed mode, so that it returns when you need it (i.e. opening a new tab, pressing Ctl+L, etc)? Furthermore, anyone know how to set up mouse gestures in chrome to save an image? I would probably switch to chrome if I could get both of those working, but for now, it looks like Firefox is still the best browser :( (which is sad, because it's one of the worst performers after Chrome, Opera, IE9)
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
@seagull mans post on last page


no, i'm the best mk

micaelis USED to be the best mk

;)

and at apex he had only been playing mk for maybe a month and still used dk sometimes, so it wasn't as good as it is now
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
@seagull mans post on last page


no, i'm the best mk

micaelis USED to be the best mk

;)

and at apex he had only been playing mk for maybe a month and still used dk sometimes, so it wasn't as good as it is now
I played him at Mlg Dc, not Apex.
 
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