Kuares did this to me a lot when I played him and made me realize that it IS pretty safe.
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FGD~ Time to get SHTL done
- Thread starter Xiivi
- Start date
Zephil
Smash Ace
yeah... thats the reason (no sarcasm)Hahahahaa MINDGAMES. I like that.
I main Wolf and his Usmash hits the same on both sides so there is no point in Reverse Usmash, which is why I love it so much for Fox.
I just recently decided to finally alt Fox for good since we've had a love/hate relationships. TKD inspired me and showed me the correct way to use Fox. I also like the Japanese Fox's. I hate using Falco and can't get good with him ever (Probably because I'm white).
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
udum.
I played Judo's Sheik with Fox back in the day for about 7-8 hours. It wasn't pretty.
Arty is like the only good white Falco.
I'd much rather play a Sheik with Fox than a Pikachu with Fox.
Luckily I use Kirby for both, and generally win
HEY GUYS GUYS.
Ok, ok ok listen.
Your opponent's like, on the stage, right?
You run up to them, right?
You think they'll spotdodge, or stay in shield or something.
What you do-
what you do is-
FIREFOX.
You run up to them, and FIREFOX.
What do you think?
Luckily I use Kirby for both, and generally win
HEY GUYS GUYS.
Ok, ok ok listen.
Your opponent's like, on the stage, right?
You run up to them, right?
You think they'll spotdodge, or stay in shield or something.
What you do-
what you do is-
FIREFOX.
You run up to them, and FIREFOX.
What do you think?
Zephil
Smash Ace
too risky IMO because of the ending lag of firefox and unless you do the firefox really close to the opponent, you will not hit with the multihits at the beginning of the move and after that firefox is just one hit, if firefox had the same properties of firebird it will have been a good idea. Another reason why is not so viable is because you need to be far away from the edge because the worst thing you want is to pass through the opponent with the firefox but you go past by the edge and you fall into your death.I'd much rather play a Sheik with Fox than a Pikachu with Fox.
Luckily I use Kirby for both, and generally win
HEY GUYS GUYS.
Ok, ok ok listen.
Your opponent's like, on the stage, right?
You run up to them, right?
You think they'll spotdodge, or stay in shield or something.
What you do-
what you do is-
FIREFOX.
You run up to them, and FIREFOX.
What do you think?
Changing of topic Pikachu is way harder than Sheik for the simple reason that there are more ways to make a cg than making a tiltlock. Pikachu can shieldgrab you, running grab you, pivot grab you, and I think falling fair combos to grab compared to sheik that from what I know you can't OTS ftilt, you can ftilt while running, and I don't know of any move that combos to ftilt. Sheik MU is really similar to ZSS in the way to evade the locks and Pikachu is more similar to IC but worst.
So Pika MU can't be compared with the Sheik MU.
Fox 3 worst MU in this order are: Pikachu, IC, Sheik
The other reason why IC and Pikachu are worst MU are because both have really good uairs to pressure when you are on a platform which sheik cannot do with her uair.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Genius.I'd much rather play a Sheik with Fox than a Pikachu with Fox.
Luckily I use Kirby for both, and generally win
HEY GUYS GUYS.
Ok, ok ok listen.
Your opponent's like, on the stage, right?
You run up to them, right?
You think they'll spotdodge, or stay in shield or something.
What you do-
what you do is-
FIREFOX.
You run up to them, and FIREFOX.
What do you think?
I did something similar to this before with Wolf. I jabbed, ran away, then up b'd at them. It worked
.Sheik can duck under lasers entirely and her Ftilt doesn't have to be stale on Fox like it does on Wolf. Fair>Ftilt is a true combo too...
Not saying Pika and Ics are easier, but Sheik still sucks LMAO. I counterpick Sheik on Fox's cause it's an easier matchup then Fox vs Wolf, which is even.
Zephil
Smash Ace
I am ashamed of you... you never counterpick on a Fox vs Wolf match!! Thats one of the most awesome/fun/even/amazing/entertaining/satisfying matches of brawl!!Genius.
I did something similar to this before with Wolf. I jabbed, ran away, then up b'd at them. It worked
Sheik can duck under lasers entirely and her Ftilt doesn't have to be stale on Fox like it does on Wolf. Fair>Ftilt is a true combo too...
Not saying Pika and Ics are easier, but Sheik still sucks LMAO. I counterpick Sheik on Fox's cause it's an easier matchup then Fox vs Wolf, which is even.
Question: Sheik ducks even a well made SHL with the silent laser?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fox vs. Wolf is pretty suspenseful. Like...I'm on the edge of my seat for most of the match. xD
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Oh in tourney I only do it if I lose with Wolf the first round. I have vids vs Omni's Fox on Coney's channel, but that's like all the Fox vs Wolf vids I have.
Sheik ducks as low as Snake, so I assume the SHL silent laser won't connect.
Kuares
Pizza
I have a Falco main who does spotdodge baits to chain grab me. I should be Nair'ing but do you know if the opponent can grab a fox out of fire? If not then awesome!
If I were fighting you and I just barely won the first round and then you switched to Sheik. I second Pikachu.
No one here is completely loyal to Fox ;_;
Lightning93
Smash Champion
It seems to me Ice Climbers are worse than Pikachu.
Shiek has a lot of moves that are good shield-grab bait. However, really good Shieks are very mobile and it can be hard to keep her away for an extended period of time. And if she does somehow decide to hold back, her ability to crawl is still a huge issue.
Shiek has a lot of moves that are good shield-grab bait. However, really good Shieks are very mobile and it can be hard to keep her away for an extended period of time. And if she does somehow decide to hold back, her ability to crawl is still a huge issue.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
If you won the first round then I'd pick probably like Battlefield and then you would have to tell me if you're gonna stay the same character or not dude so if you went Pikachu then I'd just go Metaknight...
KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
Going back to what Asdioh said. I actually do that myself, with quite large success. The problem is where you can do it. Depending on the character you're facing it can be HIDEOUSLY unsafe (like Samus, a long ranged powerful projectile that will be able to catch you before you're out of firefox).
what exactly is the difference between firefox and firebird?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Firefox is decent and firebird sucks.
:/
But yeah Firefox goes further than firebird, making it a better recovery move than Falco's Up-B. I don't know if there's something else different about it, though.
:/
But yeah Firefox goes further than firebird, making it a better recovery move than Falco's Up-B. I don't know if there's something else different about it, though.
Zephil
Smash Ace
I am talking of the amount of hits each move does, not about their recovery usefulness. Firebird has more hits than firefox which makes it actually a really good move to poke and even break shield, firefox just have multi hits at the beginning and then is just one big hit while firebird is a multihit move during the entire animation
Uzima (Uzi)
Smash Lord
to lazy to read previous posts,
firefox goes through shield, it lowers it enough to auto poke through.
firefox goes through shield, it lowers it enough to auto poke through.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Better hope he doesn't have MK experience. It could get ugly.
Wait, you've played Kenny.
Kuares
Pizza
Unless, being an optimist, I took you to the second round with Fox. Then, upon losing, the situation'd be reversed. Counterpicking FD so either Fox v Meta or Pika v Sheik both aren't good situations.
Which is why I'm going to change the game order to counterpick, counterpick, neutral when I hold a tournament because making the first round that important is dumb.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Fox vs Mk is NOT even close to even. I'm not stupid enough to struggle break into an Usmash and I can just wall Fox. I ban Fd always so I'd force you to take me somewhere else.
The 2nd idea is kind of stupid because you can take someone to potentially Rainbow Cruise first round vs an Mk. Lose, then if it has to be a counterpick then you're forced upon a bunch of ****ty selections unless you're including neutrals in counterpick.
Zephil
Smash Ace
The MU is even, no doubt about it. Check the MU discussion to see why because I am too lazy to post all the reasons
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fox vs. MK is even because M2K said so guys....
Jeez.
Jeez.
Gamegenie222
Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
Are u referring to me Kuares or that Zephilos guy? Sorry if I got the name wrong.
Kuares
Pizza
Don't wall fox please. You should just go Wolf.
How I was going to have the stages work:
- P1 chooses a stage
- P2 decides if it's agreeable
-If not, P1 chooses another stage but P2 doesn't have a say any more - Match Begins
- 2nd round, roles switch
- If it's still 1-1, 3rd match they'd stage strike.
Ha, I was referring to Zephyros. He does that stuff like 5 times in a row and it gets me half the time.
Conviction
Human Nature
Here are some of Meta Knight's options along with punishments:
- Full hop fair (whiffed): Dash into MK and Usmash or dash into MK and short hop fair.
- Full hop nair: Very difficult (although possible) to punish because of its low cool-down (although impossible from block unless maybe when powerblocked). Counterable with a preemptive short-hop dair and it's possible to interrupt it if the opponent does actually commit to it) though.
- Full hop dair (whiffed): Full hop fair.
- Short hop fair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack (dash usmash is better of course). DIFFICULT/UNSAFE/UNLIKELY
- Short hop nair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack.
- Short hop dair (whiffed or blocked): Dash usmash, dash short-hop fair; unblock, dash usmash.
- Dash attack (blocked): Unblock, dsmash.
- Short hop fair (miss-spaced and blocked): Usmash from block. If not "inside" Fox and completely at Fox's backside, unblock and utilt.
- Landing fair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing nair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing dair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing uair (anything): Shield-grab if blocking, anything if not (including moving away because its landing cool-down is very small). If this happens it's probably the opposing player's mistake.
- Dsmash (blocked or whiffed): Dash usmash or unblock, dash usmash. Punish dsmash every time you block it. Be aware that the second hit only has a 4 frame window for usmash to hit it, so it may be hard if it's tippered. Always possible when powerblocked.
- Shuttle loop (back facing Meta Knight): Full hop bair.
- Shuttle loop (facing Meta Knight): Full hop fair/nair.
If there's no time, walk under Meta Knight to usmash him. Dash under him uair works too. If there's really no time at all, block the glide attack. If it's miss-spaced horizontally (too close), shield-grab. If it's miss-spaced vertically (too high), usmash from block.
- Mach Tornado: Usmash or powerblock.
- Ftilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dtilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dsmash: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
Fox can interrupt certain actions with the following moves:
- Walk grab.
- Dash usmash.
- Dash attack.
Interruptions.
Interrupting serves to punish excessive commitment. You must observe how interrupting and punishing affects the opponent's behavior. You should't attempt interrupting too often (as you commit too strongly to interruption attempts), specially usmash which is quite punishable (walk grab is very good though). Interrupting serves mostly to manage the opponent's behavior so it doesn't fall out of control.
Dash attack only from above around 50%. I don't know the exact percentage when a connected Dash Attack is no longer punished with nair or dair, but the opponent can hit Fox out of hit-stun because of Fox's frame disadvantage before certain percentage.
About short-hop fair:
Actions that you can't interrupt are usually whiffs (which are punishable). Meta Knight's forward air is flexible. The opponent can either short-hop fair immediately, or short-hop and fair at the latest possible moment (before it makes Meta Knight land with cool-down of course). Short-hop fair in general is countered by short-hop air-dodge, but you can also bait the ones performed quickly out of the short-hop to punish as they're whiffed, or interrupt the delayed ones before the opponent acts out of their short-hop.
I don't recommend to attempt punishing this whiff too often, as timing and spacing are too strict. Short-hop air-dodge still counters this, which is good.
Don't worry about this until you see it. I'm the only Meta Knight player I've ever seen that delays his short hop fair.
Mach Tornado.
You should shine before landing to wait out Mach Tornadoes. There's stuff you can do like air-dodge into the move's last hit to punish its cool-down or nair/dair into the center of it (nair's easier but both are unreliable as the opponent spaces himself), but safety is usually better.
After blocking this move, you should downsmash if the opponent's not at usmash KO percentage if Meta Knight ends the move right above Fox (priority is given to downsmash to keep usmash slightly fresher since usmash is connected more often). If he's at usmash KO percentage, simply perform it. It's also possible that they land with enough cool-down or a short enough distance from Fox for a dash usmash to reach. If there's no chance of punishment, you can mix-up on the opponent (dair, block, grab in order of usefulness).
Usmash counters Mach Tornado from below too, so you can hit it as it's coming if too predictable, dash and usmash it from below, or maybe even block and immediately usmash it: tip was spread that a decayed Mach Tornado's hitbox is inactive for 11 frames after touching you or your shield, which may be the reason you can smash DI it so often so you don't get caught in it.
Recovery.
No character handles Fox's landing mix-up extremely well, and even though Meta Knight is one of the best at it, it's not enough to cover Fox's options: shine turn-around or not, fast-fall air-dodge drifting into whichever direction, bair, dair (to punish waiting without blocking)...my recommendation is to always air-dodge outside of Meta Knight's nair range, since it's very easy to react with that move, it takes around 6 frames to come out and it deals enormous damage for such a useful move.
Remember to shine from knock-back if there's no chance of you being KOed (to gain slight height, remove tumble animation and gain a chance to decide on the following action) and to reduce your momentum appropriately if there is (uair into air-jump fair while holding the Control Stick towards the stage if there's chance to be KOed sideways; C-stick down while holding the Control Stick towards the side you're drifting is there's a chance to be KOed upwards; a combination of both: For example uair, fast-fall, air-jump fair towards the stage if there's a chance of being KOed in either direction).
Illusion towards the stage if its invincible frames will help you (you're invincible at the first part of Illusion's trajectory if you don't perform the short cancel), if it's a guaranteed return, or if you're feeling gutsy; and towards the ledge if there's no chance of a ledge hog (for example an opponent charging fsmash).
Gimp.
Oops. Don't let it happen. When grab released at the ledge, air-jump air dodge back onstage instead of just air-jumping into an ftilt or a dair. We'd all rather risk a hit or throw than being gimped. DON'T EVER BE AIR-RELEASED OFF THE LEDGE. THIS WILL KILL YOU.
There are likely many more things I didn't mention that work in this match-up or in general.
This match-up depends a lot on observing the opponent.
Read that made from TKD's group and coupled with MU thread. Please stop with the non-sense. Lol walling Fox. Tell me how that works one a Fox who is better than the lower level of the metagame.
lol no and if you are trying to be funny be exact. M2K said Fox counters MK 60/40.
____________________________________________________________
No hard feelings here guys but you came to the Fox Boards to tell the Foxes we are wrong about something that has a lot of time and testing put into it.
Zephil
Smash Ace
lol Zephilos thats funny...
I am not saying it because M2K said it... lol he sucks hard at MU discussion
Practically Iblis wrote all you need to know of the MU and the reason why its even
I am not saying it because M2K said it... lol he sucks hard at MU discussion
Practically Iblis wrote all you need to know of the MU and the reason why its even
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
You didn't even mention glide attack, Fox's weight being really low, Mk's ability to plank, and Fox's predictable recovery. He can recover by grabbing edge or landing on stage. Mk's usually cover one to punish the other.
The matchup is not even otherwise we'd see more Fox's beating all the Mk's. The only Fox I ever see beat top Mk's is TKD who AlSO HAS NEVER versed M2k in tourney.
I see no Fox's beating Overswarm, Kel, M2k, Dojo, Shadow, Dmbrandon, Seibrik, Omni, Korn, Atomsk, Anti, and/or Orion.
The only top Mk's I've seen that were beaten by Fox's were Tyrant and Inui (I think he lost to Nakat).
Why would one opt for the Mk ditto most of the time then when Fox is a supposed even matchup as well? Wouldn't people know Mk vs Mk better then Fox vs Mk and choose a smarter decision by going Fox?
No, because the matchup is too much work and the more work required just to punish Mk and beat him, reflects the difficulty of the matchup. I think Fox vs Mk is 40-60 or 45-55 at best. You guys fail to realize that when Mk "gets in" he does a ****load of damage for one fail punish by Fox.
The matchup is not even otherwise we'd see more Fox's beating all the Mk's. The only Fox I ever see beat top Mk's is TKD who AlSO HAS NEVER versed M2k in tourney.
I see no Fox's beating Overswarm, Kel, M2k, Dojo, Shadow, Dmbrandon, Seibrik, Omni, Korn, Atomsk, Anti, and/or Orion.
The only top Mk's I've seen that were beaten by Fox's were Tyrant and Inui (I think he lost to Nakat).
Why would one opt for the Mk ditto most of the time then when Fox is a supposed even matchup as well? Wouldn't people know Mk vs Mk better then Fox vs Mk and choose a smarter decision by going Fox?
No, because the matchup is too much work and the more work required just to punish Mk and beat him, reflects the difficulty of the matchup. I think Fox vs Mk is 40-60 or 45-55 at best. You guys fail to realize that when Mk "gets in" he does a ****load of damage for one fail punish by Fox.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I was trying to be funny...and yeah, M2K said something even more ridiculous. I should have known.
You also right that huge wall of text stating what Fox can do against every single one of MK's moves when you fail to realize that we're only human. MK is the best character in the game for a reason, and there's no way a mid-tier like Fox is going to go even against MK. He may not be BAD against him, but yeah...what Seagull said.
Conviction
Human Nature
I didn't mention glide attack is beaten by Nair and Dair? opps.
Lol I'll go ahead and say it right now most Foxes don't play the MU right.
You fail to see Fox does the same. >.> This is why most Foxes avoid talking about this MU. People have their minds made up and don't want to change it.
Lol I'll go ahead and say it right now most Foxes don't play the MU right.
You fail to see Fox does the same. >.> This is why most Foxes avoid talking about this MU. People have their minds made up and don't want to change it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Then go prove it. Go take out some of the top MK mains.
Conviction
Human Nature
No lie. I want to, (lol I sound like DP) but there are NO MKs in GA :/
Lol another reason I stay out this MU discussion because I can't back it up with any proof XD
and it's better to know what you can do than be in a situation where you think you can't do anything but you can.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
That's because they just agree with TKD. Though based on Mk matchups if you look at someone like X, then you can argue Sonic vs Mk is even too since X beats like every Mk. He knows how to punish all Mk's moves accordingly. Just look at Mlg for proof. He lost to only one Mk. In fact by those statistics, Sonic beats Mk.
ok why is there an mk MU disscussion in here? completely unnecessary
- glide attack clashes with fox's dair FYI, dair lasts longer so dair wins
- fox is weight is low, so is meteknights
- lol at mk plank. fox should be in the lead if the MU is played correctly, if theres no ledge grab rule and mk gets the lead and goes straight to plank, its unlikely he will do perfect planking since no one(that i know of) can do it.
- fox predictable recovery? not at all. mk cant cover all fox's options for getting back to the stage.fox has too many fair, illusion and firefox mixups.
- You say we would see more fox's beating mk's but there are not many top level fox players. question, how many top level fox's have lost to top level mks where both have played the MU correctly? practically none. M2k is teribad at the Fox MU, he does not know how to fight fox.
- fox's go mk only when on counter pick stages. Its alot easier to use mk on brinstar against mk, thats just smart tactical play.
- You fail to understand the MU, appreciate others opinion and overall are just disrespectful, i dont know why your here but im sure your not wanted here.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
I've beaten Inui 2x, Nairo, Holynightmare,pwii and any other MK I've played after Apex....can't remember anyone EC is filled with MK so yea TKD isn't the only one taking out good Metaknights just saying. I played M2K and took him to last hit. The matchup is indeed even though.
i'm GAs top mk now
just wait till saturday
(but i won't use mk vs fox.... at least in tourney, lol)
Fire!
Smash Champion
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I don't consider pwii a top Mk lol. I'm not downsizing your achievements and congrats. I don't keep up with results for Fox's.
Are you coming to Md/Va tourney this weekend? I'll be there for mid tiers. Can't go for regular tourney cause I work from 3-8
. Lets get some Fox vs Wolf matchups recorded if you come down
.I can post where I want to. I recently decided to pick up Fox. I think Wolf does much better vs Mk anyway, but both aren't even matchups.
Perfect planking=Ledge snap Uairs -___-...That's not hard to do at all.
If you're considering matchups and changing characters based on stage then by default matchups can't be even because that'd be every stage vs Mk except Fd.
If M2k is super bad vs Fox and he barely beat Nakat then does that mean if he knew the matchup then Fox would be massacred? I'm going by YOUR logic and statements.
Isn't the only good Mk from there Micaelis (I think I spelled his name right)? Going by the same logic by the Fox's, I beat him Wolf vs Mk in a money match at Dc. I haven't lost to any Metaknight in tourney other then Omni and Kel. I beat a lot of people in MM's at Apex, especially Mk vs Wolf.
MU's can and do change with stages, it would be stupid if every MU stayed the same no matter the stage.
No, your wrong. M2k is a better player than nakat, thats why he won. all that happened was his skill overrode the MU. If M2k learnt the MU, he would of prob wrecked. its about balance, m2k had alot more exp then nakat.
and thats not perfect planking... thats mk planking lol
and yeah, i cant tell you were to post, so continue to make disrespectful comments
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
How are my posts disrespectful?
Conviction
Human Nature
Yea I never played his MK though, plus his switch from DK to MK was recent irrc. Also we just don't like MU discussion is our general thread. Lol