Falco's big advantage over Fox?

[Vect0r]

I've taken a look at the tier list recently, and I agree that Falco belongs in the top tier,
but what makes Falco so much better than Fox?

I have some things in mind, but I'd rather hear them from some other Falco's.
So what do you think?

 

[Kais3000]

It's because of Falco's moveset being changed for brawl and Fox's staying true to melee, but his moves being gimped a little.

Fox's shine now is not as good of a gimp as it used to be, simply put it sucks in comparison to melee shine. Not saying that Falco's is better but it does have its uses (i.e spacing).

Falco also has a chaingrab that is great for racking percents and I find that agaisnt Fox, Falco's chaingrab racks enough to put him on around 70%. Fox does have his utilt though that is also a great damage racker but with the chaingrab you can lead it into a spike for an easy, and some might say cheap, kill.

Falco's lasers also have the stun factor that can actually come in handy more times than you think. It is good for mindgames gimping jumps.

Also Fox's lack of killing moves with his dsmash being techable and his aerials being weak so his only real killing moves are his fsmash and usmash, with his usmash being Fox's only smash that is greater than Falco's.

In terms of recoveries they are fairly matched but with Fox's firefox being slightly longer so he has the edge on vertical recovery but Falco has a better phantasm with the added feature of spiking, which a few players forget about and so get spiked easily.

Anyway this is my first post on smashboards so if it sounds a bit wishy washy I appologise but I will improve with time.

 

[§witch]

Chain grab/spike, priority, and far superior projectile.

 

[zrky]

I think side smashes also count in to falco being better than fox, really from my experience is that falco's side smash does more damage or has more nock-back than fox's

 

[Blad01]

Falco's FSmash has more range / knock back than Fox's, but is also slower.

 

[§witch]

But fox's doesn't have a sweet spot, it has more range where it will KO, fox KOs and racks up damage alot betetr than falco, and with his fair recovery and his better fire fox, he also has superior recovery.

 

[J4pu]

If you wanted the specific reasons falco beats fox in a match everyone else has legit answers, if you wanted the reason falco's place on the tier list is higher, it is because Fox gets screwed by his fast fall speed in many cases and he dies early, I imagine the FF speed was supposed to be an advantage when they made the game to add to his overall speed but it ends up hurting him because he gets stuck in "cheap" damage builders for so long.
Falco also gets in trouble from his fall speed but his CG on over half the cast makes up for it in general (not specific match-ups). And falco's laser is the best projectile in the game imo because of its awesome spacing uses

 

[Denzi]

It's because of Falco's moveset being changed for brawl and Fox's staying true to melee, but his moves being gimped a little.

Fox's shine now is not as good of a gimp as it used to be, simply put it sucks in comparison to melee shine. Not saying that Falco's is better but it does have its uses (i.e spacing).

Falco also has a chaingrab that is great for racking percents and I find that agaisnt Fox, Falco's chaingrab racks enough to put him on around 70%. Fox does have his utilt though that is also a great damage racker but with the chaingrab you can lead it into a spike for an easy, and some might say cheap, kill.

Falco's lasers also have the stun factor that can actually come in handy more times than you think. It is good for mindgames gimping jumps.

Also Fox's lack of killing moves with his dsmash being techable and his aerials being weak so his only real killing moves are his fsmash and usmash, with his usmash being Fox's only smash that is greater than Falco's.

In terms of recoveries they are fairly matched but with Fox's firefox being slightly longer so he has the edge on vertical recovery but Falco has a better phantasm with the added feature of spiking, which a few players forget about and so get spiked easily.

Nice first post. I'd like to point out that Fox has Uair to land kills as well, although that's not really important here. Tier list placement takes into consideration how well each char does against all members of the cast, not just one or two. Falco is higher because he has fewer bad matchups (due largely to chaingrab/cainspike).

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yup, fox got the short stick when sakurai decided to make falco and fox more different characters, falcos jab combo and side tilt are also better imo, falco has one of the best proyectiles, and a Dthrow and Dair faaaaar better, i respect fox mains, falco is a better fighter and plays a lot like fox, so switching mains would be easy, but they stick to fox... thats cool

 

[illinialex24]

His laser seem to be a lot better adapted to Brawl. I also think his smashes besides U-smash got a lot better.

 

[M@v]

There is a two word answer to this: Chain grab. I like fox, I think he deserves to be at the bottom of high tier. But Falco is by far the best space animal. Also, Falco can force openings for approaches MUCH better than fox can.

 

[-Mars-]

Priority and a better spacing tool. I really don't think the chaingrab really sets him that much apart, Fox can put 50% on you really fast with ease. Fox is the better combo character and has better killing options.....but Falco is more suited for Brawls defensive style.

 

[D1]

Agreeing w/ all the good points already made in this thread...my main reason that Falco has a big advantage over Fox is because Falco has an overall better approach game than Fox will ever have.

IMO Fox's advantage over Falco is that he can kill earlier w/ the usmash than Falco ever can.

Whenever facing tough matchups where the opponent is past CG-able percentages Falco has to stick to his guns/jabs/bairs/throws/dairs/etc where applicable. Fox on the other hand can keep getting chip damage w/ his laser or throws until the opponent is in usmash killing range.

Fox doesn't get easily gimped as Falco does either...it doesn't take much to stop Falco from returning to the stage. Fox on the other hand takes more work to gimp. At least Falco's upB can burn ya now ^_^.

Overall, Falco does better in alotta matchups than Fox does...which is why he pwnz period (I know someone said this...shoot me).

 

[M@v]

Agreeing w/ all the good points already made in this thread...my main reason that Falco has a big advantage over Fox is because Falco has an overall better approach game than Fox will ever have.

IMO Fox's advantage over Falco is that he can kill earlier w/ the usmash than Falco ever can.

Whenever facing tough matchups where the opponent is past CG-able percentages Falco has to stick to his guns/jabs/bairs/throws/dairs/etc where applicable. Fox on the other hand can keep getting chip damage w/ his laser or throws until the opponent is in usmash killing range.

Fox doesn't get easily gimped as Falco does either...it doesn't take much to stop Falco from returning to the stage. Fox on the other hand takes more work to gimp. At least Falco's upB can burn ya now ^_^.

Overall, Falco does better in alotta matchups than Fox does...which is why he pwnz period (I know someone said this...shoot me).

I would never want to shoot you :O. But yeah, nice job bringing up all the good points. One thing I am noticing about fox is he has some good matchups with some of the best characters(even with snake and DDD, beats Diddy) but get OWNT by a lot too(MK,G&W,Marth,Pika). Fox seems to be moreso a great CP character to pull on someone when the opponent picks an ideal matchup for fox. Also, chances are that person hasnt played too many foxes, so you should have a slight element of suprise.

Fox's main problem is his approaching. Its something he has always had issues with.

 

[8AngeL8]

That "even with Snake" thing is very much still up for debate.

 

[M@v]

That "even with Snake" thing is very much still up for debate.

What IS there left to debate? I only know one or two people who firmly believe it is snake's clear advantage.

Also, I have been practicing BIG TIME with Falco recently...I might main him over fox, I dont know yet...but one thing is true. Falco is very easy to switch over to if you play fox. All Falco mains should have fox as one of their seconds, and vise versa.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Falco can chain grab to spike Snake, from there Snake is in DEEP trouble and has a REALLY hard time getting back on stage, Falco can SHDL to keep snake at bay and reflector if he gets close, and Falco is STILL EVEN with Snake.

So i dont see how Fox has an advantage on Snake if all he has is uptilt juggle, lazer spam, and can die A LOT sooner than Falco.

If Falco is even with Snake, then Fox is 4-6 best case scenario. Watch vids of Ally's Snake and even though im a Fox main, id say it would be 3-7 in Snakes favor.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

lol, just read your post PGH, i feel the same way. You have to work a lot harder with Fox, so switching to Falco almost seems like im cheating since he is so much easier to use.

 

[superglucose]

Fox has a better utilt, dtilt, and ftilt imo (with the utilt of Falco coming close). Fox has a better dsmash and usmash imo, but his fsmash is a little better.

In the air, Fox has a better fair and uair, but a worse bair, nair, and dair. Fox's shine is nothing compared to Falco's, fox's laser nothing compared to Falco's, illusion doesn't spike for Fox... only his Firefox is better.

Also Falco wins in grabs and jabs, which is where I think the game of Brawl is won and lost. Also Fox's super fast fall speed hurts him (as was already said). Fox is not a bad character at all, and I think he will probably move up, maybe even a little bit into high tier. But unlike Melee, his avian wingman is significantly better.

Just for fun, you should play Falco for ~30 matches, and then switch to fox. They are so similar in terms of how they can be played, but their subtle differences make them two very different animals. The slightly faster falling speed causes me to miss illusion sweet spots, his dash grab is timed a little differently...

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Fox has F-Air, U-Air, Up-Smash, Down-Smash, U-Tilt and Firefox. Fox had his range cut(look at the blaster) and Falco's decloning kept him Top Tier(only character in smash to be top tier in 2 SSB's) Fox is alright, but he gets ***** by Pika and such.

 

[OverLade]

Falco doesn't have as much of an edge over fox as people think. Im pretty sure Chaingrab to spike is survivable by Fox's recovery range. Fox's fast falling makes it easy to punish anything falco misses with, with dair combos. I've seen great falco players get ***** by equally good foxes, though I'm not going to name any names. XD

 

[superglucose]

Falco doesn't have as much of an edge over fox as people think. Im pretty sure Chaingrab to spike is survivable by Fox's recovery range.

Against a good edgehog? Don't forget that the spike pushes fox pretty far down cause of that normal fall speed Fox has.

 

[M@v]

Fox's Fair is RIDICULOUS. People dont realize how good it is. It can autocancel(if timed right, would not recommend using it for this). It does about 23% if fully connected. You can use the rising fair AT and get a huge boost in recovery. Although it is not a true combo, Dthrow-fair can connect a lot. Also, I have killed people with fair as low as 100%(it was a jigglypuff). But I have killed others around 130%. They were coming down from an upsmash hit. I used rising fair, and the last hit had enough knockback to kill them. When I realized Fair can kill that low, it makes fox's up aerial much less needed. Fair by far Fox's best move along with utilt and upsmash IMO.
Like I said, Falco is better overall, but in several situations fox DOMINATES, making him an ideal CP character. He just has too many people who can **** him(Pika, ZSS, Sheik). Those are 3 matchups that are near unwinnable.

 

[superglucose]

Just as a note about Fox, compare the animation of his fair to the nair of Snake.

But yeah, I agree with you about Fox's fair, PGH. It's got good damage, it's fairly quick, and it eats airdodging alive. It also has good knockback.

 

[viparagon]

Also Fox's lack of killing moves with his dsmash being techable and his aerials being weak so his only real killing moves are his fsmash and usmash, with his usmash being Fox's only smash that is greater than Falco's.

In terms of recoveries they are fairly matched but with Fox's firefox being slightly longer so he has the edge on vertical recovery but Falco has a better phantasm with the added feature of spiking, which a few players forget about and so get spiked easily.

Good first post! My first post was a tier list! just wondering, but I thought ALL of fox's smash's are better. And fox's recovery is quite a bit better thanks to helicopter kicks and a higher up b

 

[Shin Bowser Meow]

I agree w/ PGH, Fox is definitely one of my ideal CP chars to use along w/ DDD, Marth, Peach...all dependant on the matchup.

(D1 on Shin's account)

 

[8AngeL8]

What IS there left to debate? I only know one or two people who firmly believe it is snake's clear advantage.

Also, I have been practicing BIG TIME with Falco recently...I might main him over fox, I dont know yet...but one thing is true. Falco is very easy to switch over to if you play fox. All Falco mains should have fox as one of their seconds, and vise versa.

Last I checked, the debate thread was just one side saying "Fox's lasers and dair **** snake" and the other side saying "crouching and tilts ***** fox." Nothing really got proven.

 

[strider43]

It's because of Falco's moveset being changed for brawl and Fox's staying true to melee, but his moves being gimped a little.

Fox's shine now is not as good of a gimp as it used to be, simply put it sucks in comparison to melee shine. Not saying that Falco's is better but it does have its uses (i.e spacing).

Falco also has a chaingrab that is great for racking percents and I find that agaisnt Fox, Falco's chaingrab racks enough to put him on around 70%. Fox does have his utilt though that is also a great damage racker but with the chaingrab you can lead it into a spike for an easy, and some might say cheap, kill.

Falco's lasers also have the stun factor that can actually come in handy more times than you think. It is good for mindgames gimping jumps.

Also Fox's lack of killing moves with his dsmash being techable and his aerials being weak so his only real killing moves are his fsmash and usmash, with his usmash being Fox's only smash that is greater than Falco's.

In terms of recoveries they are fairly matched but with Fox's firefox being slightly longer so he has the edge on vertical recovery but Falco has a better phantasm with the added feature of spiking, which a few players forget about and so get spiked easily.

Anyway this is my first post on smashboards so if it sounds a bit wishy washy I appologise but I will improve with time.

Seems legit to me, also just to add on top of this, Falco can chain his attacks with grabs. He can chain his grabs to attacks, etc etc. His boost smash and dash attack smash are amazing for damage and kills. His dair can kill most characters at a relatively low percent and his taunts are god tier.

 

[-Mars-]

Hmmmm Ally?- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v28wJqzmw5k

Now that that's out of the way, Zerocool, i'm not even going to bother responding to your post.

@ 8Angel8, maybe you should check the thread again buddy. Utilt clashes with anything Snake has on the ground and comes out faster than anything besides his jab.........yes it CLASHES WITH UTILT AND FTILT. Foxs' aerials **** Snake in the air and Fox gimps the hell out of Snakes recovery. Snake can't camp and Fox combos the s*** out of him. High-level tournament play has proven that this matchup is even..........what more do you need?

 

[wangston]

inb4 landmastersz lol

Falco's , laser, chain grab, and spike make him much better. Though fox as amazing speed and can "combo" into many different.

 

[8AngeL8]

Hmmmm Ally?-
High-level tournament play has proven that this matchup is even..........what more do you need?

Replays. I'm not just bullheadedly in favor of Snake. I can be convinced on this subject if you can show me that it's more than theory.

 

[-Mars-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc1Lo-EREuo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVRMrPzmgVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jlov4anMuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuODnXy2_gg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoaKK8ACDjY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fqfkajRRFs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0rZIRguoFA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNrvY2FV--c&feature=related

Whew........lotsa vids to look up.

 

[8AngeL8]

Wow, nice vids. I'll concede it's 50/50 after that, but I don't think it's total ****.

 

[vKo]

Is it just me or does it seem like Falco's D-Smash has way less range than it did in Melee?
And does anyone else think Falco's ditto'd F-Smash kills more often than this new ax handle smash attack in Brawl?

 

[M@v]

Is it just me or does it seem like Falco's D-Smash has way less range than it did in Melee?
And does anyone else think Falco's ditto'd F-Smash kills more often than this new ax handle smash attack in Brawl?

well I dont know the answer the answer to your 2nd question, but Falco's Dsmash in Brawl...well....not very good(at least compared to fox's). Yes its strong, but its best use is spot dodging to dsmash or OoS. Its not a good move to try and kill with. Basically its situational.

 

[8AngeL8]

VERY situational. His tilts and dash attack have much better range. I only use it if I spot dodge and they're right behind me and vulnerable.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow, nice vids. I'll concede it's 50/50 after that, but I don't think it's total ****.

nor do I; We were merely stating that it was even.....while everyone else was saying that Snake ***** Fox.

 

[OverLade]

I'm gonna say the matchup is 50/50.

 

[Vect0r]

wow I'm amazed by how popular this topic got o_o

Oh and yeah, Snake owns Fox. Just had to tell you that.

 

[M@v]

wow I'm amazed by how popular this topic got o_o

Oh and yeah, Snake owns Fox. Just had to tell you that.

Way to read the thread.