Falcon's Worst Matchups - Strategizing Time *Updated 4/14/08, Zelda, Kirby, Sonic*

[.kR0]

Because it doesn't do anything significant.

What do you accomplish with it? You can't lunge forward and retreat really far in melee which made spacing incredibly hard for the opponent.

The DD now is you move back and force IN PLACE. Try raptor/upsmash and you'll just get shielded or worse, ground dodged and punished.

Its incredibly easy to see upsmash/raptor coming.

 

[KeyKid19]

Honestly.

Spacies, Pit, Lucas, Shiek, Toon, Snake, Marth, Metaknight, Olimar hands down is a "better" character atm. Thats already 11 characters thats incredibly hard for falcon to beat. Whoever Falcon can "counter" well, some other character can probably do better.

Falcon is a cool character and all and just because you can beat some mediocre player doesn't make the character itself better.

I never said being able to beat someone else had anything to do with what character is better. I was using my experiences against Zelda players as examples of how the characters stack up against each other, not me and the other player. Falcon is not the best. I generally agree with the 11 characters you listed as better than Falcon. However I do not agree if you say that Zelda is more easily able to defeat Falcon than Falcon is able to defeat Zelda. Since you didn't like my in-game examples I'll give you some hard figures.

- Falcon's moves are generally as strong or stronger than Zelda's.
- Falcon can move faster than Zelda.
- Falcon weighs more than Zelda so is statistically harder to KO.
- Zelda has more range than Falcon.
- Zelda has a projectile but it has a long total move time.
- Zelda's power moves are generally quicker (come out faster) than Falcon's power moves but they generally have comparable total move times.
- Zelda has a better but more inconsistent in expected result recovery (due to the nature of the warp). This inconsistency CAN lead to problems (however that is moving a little bit out of the character v. character realm and into the player v. player realm). Also Zelda's recovery is more stage-gimpable (near impossible to recover if you're under (literally under, not below and off to the side) the stage at all because you won't be able to get on the edge). I can go into more detail about this if you are at all confused about what I'm talking about because that wasn't that great of an explanation.
- Falcon's aerials are overall more consistent and have equal or more power (this is kind of a variable thing because of how many sweetspotted aerials the two combine to have).
- Falcon has a DownB (and it has good range and has good priority during the middle portion). Zelda doesn't really since we're strictly talking about Zelda and not Zelda/Sheik. Therefore Zelda has less moves. *I know this one is kind of silly but it's true*
- Zelda's moves have priority over a lot of Falcon's moves.

So to list each character's main strengths:

Falcon: Ground Speed, Weight, Air combat, Power.

Zelda: Priority, Projectile, Power, Some Quick Power Moves.

I honestly think that they are statistically pretty equal. I think the great equalizer between the two is that Falcon can kill sooner but will generally get less strong moves in while Zelda can't kill as soon but generally gets more strong moves in. If you disagree with any of this I'd love to hear your side of it. Also don't just say "you're dumb" and think that that proves me wrong. You did that after my other post ad never disproved anything I said. I still say that in a real match a Falcon will be able to out-maneuver a Zelda and win but statistically I can't deny that they are fairly equal overall. What do you think?

 

[.kR0]

Priority, projectile, quick kill moves > speed, weight, and ok aerials.

I dunno, when you compared Zelda with Ike I just really, really found that misleading. Even when you gave examples (running speed, gimpable recovery, kill options) those are completely unequal. Running speed is pretty much the same speed for almost all the characters except falcon+sonic. Recoveries aren't gimpable against Zelda, she just has a harder time sweetspotting (which any good Zelda can do with practice). Ike's recoveries are gimpable because his trajectory is so predictable. Not the same thing. And the kill moves that each character have is used completely differently. Ike uses his kill moves (upsmash, uptilt, ftilt, bair) as a form of punishment (player knows the guy is going to roll->upsmash). Zelda can easily spam her reliable kill move (dsmash, fsmash) with out too much worry of getting punished herself. The properties of their kill moves are completely different as well (one relies on range, the other on priority/lasting time).

It's not a match where either of them have a clear, distinct advantage, but overall Zelda seems to have a slight advantage because she seems to be slightly like a "jack-of-all-trades" character. Her aerial game, ground game and "camping" games aren't the best by far, but the fact that she has them and all of her movesets are solid (besides dair), she has more options in most cases.

And getting early kills with both characters require incredibly precise "techskill" (knee for falcon, bair/fair for Zelda) and the staple, solid kill moves (uptilt, upair, bair, dsmash, upsmash for falcon, bthrow, upair, uptilt, dsmash, fsmash, upsmash for Zelda) all depends pretty much on player skill. But overall, Zelda's moves ARE easier to land. That is undeniable.

The biggest problem with Falcon is not that he can't "combo" (although it would help a lot), the problem is that his air mobility was pretty much nerfed to oblivion which makes his aerials decent at best. If he could leap like half of Final D in an instant like he could in melee, he would be really, really good.

But the reality is, his aerial speed is slowed down to the point that its easy to see whats coming most of the time. It's either a bair, or an empty short hop. He can't do a effective running nair/fair/dair anymore.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I know Zelda has Din's fire, but how is she going to physically approach Falcon, and not get punished? What would she use? Running a? SH fair? SH dair? nair? She's so much slower in the air then the cap'm, it seems to me, most of her air game, while powerful, is defensive.

 

[KeyKid19]

Priority, projectile, quick kill moves > speed, weight, and ok aerials.

I dunno, when you compared Zelda with Ike I just really, really found that misleading. Even when you gave examples (running speed, gimpable recovery, kill options) those are completely unequal. Running speed is pretty much the same speed for almost all the characters except falcon+sonic. Recoveries aren't gimpable against Zelda, she just has a harder time sweetspotting (which any good Zelda can do with practice). Ike's recoveries are gimpable because his trajectory is so predictable. Not the same thing. And the kill moves that each character have is used completely differently. Ike uses his kill moves (upsmash, uptilt, ftilt, bair) as a form of punishment (player knows the guy is going to roll->upsmash). Zelda can easily spam her reliable kill move (dsmash, fsmash) with out too much worry of getting punished herself. The properties of their kill moves are completely different as well (one relies on range, the other on priority/lasting time).

It's not a match where either of them have a clear, distinct advantage, but overall Zelda seems to have a slight advantage because she seems to be slightly like a "jack-of-all-trades" character. Her aerial game, ground game and "camping" games aren't the best by far, but the fact that she has them and all of her movesets are solid (besides dair), she has more options in most cases.

And getting early kills with both characters require incredibly precise "techskill" (knee for falcon, bair/fair for Zelda) and the staple, solid kill moves (uptilt, upair, bair, dsmash, upsmash for falcon, bthrow, upair, uptilt, dsmash, fsmash, upsmash for Zelda) all depends pretty much on player skill. But overall, Zelda's moves ARE easier to land. That is undeniable.

The biggest problem with Falcon is not that he can't "combo" (although it would help a lot), the problem is that his air mobility was pretty much nerfed to oblivion which makes his aerials decent at best. If he could leap like half of Final D in an instant like he could in melee, he would be really, really good.

But the reality is, his aerial speed is slowed down to the point that its easy to see whats coming most of the time. It's either a bair, or an empty short hop. He can't do a effective running nair/fair/dair anymore.

Falcon's aerial speed is one of his biggest problems, I'll give you that.

Zelda's moves are probably easier to land.

I would argue that Sheik's running speed gives him a distinct speed advantage just like Falcon and Sonic have.

"Priority, projectile, quick kill moves > speed, weight, and ok aerials."

Honestly I don't see Zelda's projectile as much of and advantage in the case of fighting Falcon. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Also I really think that Falcon's weight is the difference that gives him an advantage overall. Falcon can kill Zelda about 40%-50% earlier than she can kill him. I really find that to be a huge advantage. Players play differently when they know they are in the kill zone. Sure that's not statistical but in real matches it comes into play. Also I still don't agree that Falcon has ok aerials. I'd say he has one of the stronger aerial sets in Brawl. Nair and Uair have great range, Dair and Fair are strong (Fair must be sweetspotted of course) and Bair is useful in many situations. Zelda has quicker kill moves and priority which is her forte especially against Falcon. However I think that Falcon's speed gives him the ability to punish more easily and also approach with quick moves, retreat, approach with quick moves, retreat, etc. Then once damage is high try getting in a power move. I dunno I know Zelda has some good attributes but I just think that Falcon has the upper hand when put in a real match.

Oh and I still say that Ike and Zelda are similar because you can fight them with essentially the same strategy. I'm not making any comparisons on a deeper level than that.

 

[KeyKid19]

I know Zelda has Din's fire, but how is she going to physically approach Falcon, and not get punished? What would she use? Running a? SH fair? SH dair? nair? She's so much slower in the air then the cap'm, it seems to me, most of her air game, while powerful, is defensive.

I agree. If the Zelda player comes to Falcon he will win with ease. However smart Zelda players won't do that and will wait for you to come to her. That's the main advantage of her projectile. It just makes you have to do the approach and not her which makes the match more in her favor. As a move it's not that great but using it as a tactic is pretty good.

 

[.kR0]

I know Zelda has Din's fire, but how is she going to physically approach Falcon, and not get punished? What would she use? Running a? SH fair? SH dair? nair? She's so much slower in the air then the cap'm, it seems to me, most of her air game, while powerful, is defensive.

Thats why Zelda never approaches as keykid said above.

I don't even main Zelda and I can't believe I bothered spending so much time discussing her match-up with Falcon. I will end up just saying that Zelda will have a slight advantage over Falcon. If you disagree, then it's pretty much how you view some of the mechanics in the game. Like I consider having any projectile (besides mario+luigi) a solid advantage over weight (unless you talk about DDD weight, which Falcon sure doesn't have).

And Ike and Zelda do not have the same strategy in terms of using them. One is completely defensive, camping, and hit+runs (Zelda). With Zelda, you rarely use dash attacks as approaches, aerials as a spacing game. She baits the opponents approach, and knocks them away again via nair, nB, upsmash, fsmash. Ike needs to approach and quickly via quickdraw/dashattack or he'll get camped (even against Meta or Marth, its much better to go offensive with Ike with his nair/fair). And since almost any of his moves aren't safe (besides nair and a well placed dashattack), he has to space and get the maximum benefit of his range. Their strategies aren't the same. I consider Zelda having a more similar playstyle to Pikachu (both have solid projectile, really good ground game, somewhat good aerials, light and can kill but hard to get quick kills).

I am a Ike main, so I just know that they play nothing alike or have the same strategies.

 

[Runeblade279]

Hey, thought I should inform you all that I'm going on a quick sojourn away from home to visit a college, so I won't be able to update for a few days.

Not that I have lately, but when I get back, I'll start back at page 4 and then compile what's been discussed so far.

If anyone feels like making a compilation post for when I get back detailing all the important stuff I need to know when I get back, I'd love you forever. XP

But yeah, thought I'd let you guys know so you don't just wonder where I am haha.

 

[KeyKid19]

Hey, thought I should inform you all that I'm going on a quick sojourn away from home to visit a college, so I won't be able to update for a few days.

Not that I have lately, but when I get back, I'll start back at page 4 and then compile what's been discussed so far.

If anyone feels like making a compilation post for when I get back detailing all the important stuff I need to know when I get back, I'd love you forever. XP

But yeah, thought I'd let you guys know so you don't just wonder where I am haha.

If we get some more epic info I'll try and make a compilation post for you. Have fun on your trip!

 

[IWuvGeno]

A good sonic ***** Falcon... wow! Hell, not even good, just decent.

Spring spamming with his down air is unstoppable by falcon... unpunishable and there is nothing that can take priority fast enough. Now, why would they make a faster character have more priority?

If you haven't gotten your fair bit of sonic **** yet, I can hook you up with a couple FC's.

 

[KeyKid19]

A good sonic ***** Falcon... wow! Hell, not even good, just decent.

Spring spamming with his down air is unstoppable by falcon... unpunishable and there is nothing that can take priority fast enough. Now, why would they make a faster character have more priority?

If you haven't gotten your fair bit of sonic **** yet, I can hook you up with a couple FC's.

I'd like to see a **** Sonic. Send mine and give me theirs. 1762-2331-9819

I think that online lag will unfortunately favor Sonic though, but we'll see what I can do.

 

[Reaver197]

I've uaired through Sonic's dair. The only move of Sonic's that will probably give you difficulty in terms of priority is his fair, but it doesn't do much other than rack up damage.

Also, surprisingly, Falcon has one of the most flexible recoveries in the game, making him difficult to edgeguard, which is what Sonic's game is about.

 

[KeyKid19]

I've uaired through Sonic's dair. The only move of Sonic's that will probably give you difficulty in terms of priority is his fair, but it doesn't do much other than rack up damage.

Also, surprisingly, Falcon has one of the most flexible recoveries in the game, making him difficult to edgeguard, which is what Sonic's game is about.

Finally someone besides me recognizes how good Falcon's recovery game is. Honestly he and Fox/Falco probably have the best recoveries not counting the wing characters (Pit, Meta).

 

[Reaver197]

Falco's recovery unfortunately still isn't that great, in relation to everyone's else, but at least it isn't ridiculously shorter than what Fox's is.

ROB's recovery is probably one of the best, in particular because he can use it to chase opponents off the level to egdeguard them to death. In fact, fighting an aggressive ROB is probably one of the most fun match-ups for Falcon, because almost the entire battle is based on what happens on the ledge as you edgeguard/counter-edgeguard each other.

Might I add that Falcon dive actually is a pretty good move to use? It grabs from huge distances away, essentially teleporting to people, goes through shields, and at higher damages can send them pretty far away, if not kill depending upon your location. It might be viable to combo into as a surprise attack, since when the hell has Falcon ever tried to use Falcon Dive as an attack?

 

[IWuvGeno]

I'll tell you what. Come on to AllisBrawl match-making more often. I think the big problem you guys have is that you haven't seen players like the ones who come on here. I could be wrong, but I've definitely had high hopes for Falcon in the same way you guys repeatedly try to justify.

When I play players who aren't very good, I completely **** them and it makes me feel better about Falcon. When I play certain players on AllisBrawl, it crushes all hope of Falcon being good. Sometimes you get lag, which could be accounting for some of these negative feelings. But, I know it is mostly Falcon.

BTW: If you get good enough, you can play against people like Hugs, etc. The sky is the limit. It'd be great to see more Falcon players in there. Although, the losing gets old pretty fast.

While you guys are there, I can get you hooked up with some of the match-ups I'm talking about:

Sonic
Olimar
Snake
Zelda
Lucas
Zamus
Fox
Wolf

Those are Falcon's worst 8 match-ups. This is a recently revised list for me. Some are worst than others.

 

[KeyKid19]

Falcon Dive is a nice attack and even a pretty decent edgeguarder depending on the situation.

So I don't feel totally helpless against Olimar anymore. Through a fairly thorough training process, I've identified some weaknesses in Olimar's game and also some strategies that are good for Falcon.

Strategy:

Dsmash is very easily Kneed if you jump to dodge it. I find myself jumping a lot against offensive Olimars even though he has the advantage when I'm above him because his Fsmash, Dsmash, grab, and Side B (pretty much all of his ranged forward attacks) leave him wide open for punishment from above. Honestly even with his small frame I'm able to sweetspot him fairly regularly if I jump over those moves. You have to be careful when you jump though because his Usmash, Utilt, and sometimes his UpB will hurt you if you leave yourself open to them. UpB is not really much of an issue because it's hardly ever used on the ground as an attack but if the player does like to do that then just jump -> air dodge -> Nair or pass behind him and Bair. Fair out of air dodge is hard to get right so don't try it.

Olimar, while powerful on the ground and when below you in the air, is pretty much a sitting duck when he's in the air above you. Uair kills him so make sure to use that. BUair (backwards Uair) is also a pretty useful technique against him so use that as well. All of his aerials have terrible reach so try to be as aggressive as possible when you've got him off the ground. If you're above him do the exact opposite and be as defensive as possible because his Uair is a beast against you just like yours is against him. Airdodge and evasively DI your way to the ground.

Once on the ground your best moves are Running A, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost, and grab. Raptor Boost is your best friend against aggressive Olimars because it will kill thrown Pikmin (SideB) unless it has been decayed through spamming (which may be the case against Olimar since the move is so essential to your ground game against him but most of the time I find that it kills thrown Pikmin anyways). Falcon Kick has the same great qualities but unfortunately you slow down when kicking thrown Pikmin so chances are that you will end up stopping right in Olimar's Fsmash or Dsmash range (this is bad). Raptor Boost on the other hand stops you right in place when you hit the Pikmin so you never get in range of any Olimar Smashes. Once you're in his Smash range start your aerial attack because if you stay on the ground you will be demolished. The Knee is pretty useful because it last so long so you can SH-Knee and then FF with the gimp. Usually the gimp is bad but I find it useful here because if you trip Olimar you have better options. Otherwise just play with your aerials and approaches and don't let him sense a pattern. It's ok to switch things up and use a tilt here and there as well just to keep him guessing.

The grab is probably your best tool though. Work Olimar over to an edge and then make grabbing him your number one priority. Once you have him throw him off the edge and then SH-ANYTHING to hit him. Seriously any move will work. The best situation you can have is to grab him with your back to the edge, then Bthrow into Bair -> DJ -> Bair -> Falcon Dive. If he doesn't air dodge it then you've just given yourself a great chance of killing him due to his gimp recovery. He'll be too low to knock you away from the edge with any aerials and after then second Bair you'll be able to beat him to the edge. SCORE! 1 KO for you. Now of course this won't work against all players or 100% of the time but it is a pretty solid tactic which will result in an easy KO for you if you pull it off. It seriously can work when he's around 40% so even if he only has 40% and you have 124% you just KOed him first and have the upper hand. Beating Olimar is all about gimping him when he's off the edge, and with Falcon it's thankfully not that hard to do. If Olimar had a non-tether recovery there would be almost no hope of beating him as Falcon but thanks to his tether combined with Falcon's above average edgeguarding skills you have a decent shot. You may still lose even with all of these tactics but at least they give you a shot (well they give me a shot at least).

 

[KeyKid19]

I'll tell you what. Come on to AllisBrawl match-making more often. I think the big problem you guys have is that you haven't seen players like the ones who come on here. I could be wrong, but I've definitely had high hopes for Falcon in the same way you guys repeatedly try to justify.

When I play players who aren't very good, I completely **** them and it makes me feel better about Falcon. When I play certain players on AllisBrawl, it crushes all hope of Falcon being good. Sometimes you get lag, which could be accounting for some of these negative feelings. But, I know it is mostly Falcon.

BTW: If you get good enough, you can play against people like Hugs, etc. The sky is the limit. It'd be great to see more Falcon players in there. Although, the losing gets old pretty fast.

While you guys are there, I can get you hooked up with some of the match-ups I'm talking about:

Sonic
Olimar
Snake
Zelda
Lucas
Zamus
Fox
Wolf

Those are Falcon's worst 8 match-ups. This is a recently revised list for me. Some are worst than others.

I hear you. The top players at Smash Brawl Rankings (where I go for my Wi-Fi stuff) seriously **** me and it's not because of lag like most of the other people (seriously I just can't get in my groove online at ALL even against the worst players). But yeah they are probably just as good as the people you are talking about over at AllIsBrawl so I know where you're coming from. Falcon really struggles against certain characters (especially at Final Destination, that's probably one of the worst stages you can play on for him) and there's not much you can do without just getting lucky through mindgames and such. You definitely have to be a significantly better player than your opponent if you want to win as Falcon against those characters you listed.

Even with all of that, I still have fun playing Falcon even if I lose (unless it's because of lag in which case I get pissed off thoroughly). I think that at offline tournaments you'll see Falcon have more success than he does in online competitive play. But that's just my two cents.

 

[IWuvGeno]

I hear you. The top players at Smash Brawl Rankings (where I go for my Wi-Fi stuff) seriously **** me and it's not because of lag like most of the other people (seriously I just can't get in my groove online at ALL even against the worst players). But yeah they are probably just as good as the people you are talking about over at AllIsBrawl so I know where you're coming from. Falcon really struggles against certain characters (especially at Final Destination, that's probably one of the worst stages you can play on for him) and there's not much you can do without just getting lucky through mindgames and such. You definitely have to be a significantly better player than your opponent if you want to win as Falcon against those characters you listed.

Even with all of that, I still have fun playing Falcon even if I lose (unless it's because of lag in which case I get pissed off thoroughly). I think that at offline tournaments you'll see Falcon have more success than he does in online competitive play. But that's just my two cents.

I still think you should still try some AllisBrawl match-making.

Oh and my worst map is easily Battlefield... you can get 3 stocked against disjointed hitbox characters there. Final Destination is mild in my mind.

 

[KeyKid19]

Well I just registered there so I will definitely be using that service as long as it's user-friendly. I really like Smash Brawl Rankings but this site looks good too. Maybe I'll even see you on there and we can play.

 

[Runeblade279]

Falcon Dive is a nice attack and even a pretty decent edgeguarder depending on the situation.

So I don't feel totally helpless against Olimar anymore. Through a fairly thorough training process, I've identified some weaknesses in Olimar's game and also some strategies that are good for Falcon.

Strategy:

Dsmash is very easily Kneed if you jump to dodge it. I find myself jumping a lot against offensive Olimars even though he has the advantage when I'm above him because his Fsmash, Dsmash, grab, and Side B (pretty much all of his ranged forward attacks) leave him wide open for punishment from above. Honestly even with his small frame I'm able to sweetspot him fairly regularly if I jump over those moves. You have to be careful when you jump though because his Usmash, Utilt, and sometimes his UpB will hurt you if you leave yourself open to them. UpB is not really much of an issue because it's hardly ever used on the ground as an attack but if the player does like to do that then just jump -> air dodge -> Nair or pass behind him and Bair. Fair out of air dodge is hard to get right so don't try it.

Olimar, while powerful on the ground and when below you in the air, is pretty much a sitting duck when he's in the air above you. Uair kills him so make sure to use that. BUair (backwards Uair) is also a pretty useful technique against him so use that as well. All of his aerials have terrible reach so try to be as aggressive as possible when you've got him off the ground. If you're above him do the exact opposite and be as defensive as possible because his Uair is a beast against you just like yours is against him. Airdodge and evasively DI your way to the ground.

Once on the ground your best moves are Running A, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost, and grab. Raptor Boost is your best friend against aggressive Olimars because it will kill thrown Pikmin (SideB) unless it has been decayed through spamming (which may be the case against Olimar since the move is so essential to your ground game against him but most of the time I find that it kills thrown Pikmin anyways). Falcon Kick has the same great qualities but unfortunately you slow down when kicking thrown Pikmin so chances are that you will end up stopping right in Olimar's Fsmash or Dsmash range (this is bad). Raptor Boost on the other hand stops you right in place when you hit the Pikmin so you never get in range of any Olimar Smashes. Once you're in his Smash range start your aerial attack because if you stay on the ground you will be demolished. The Knee is pretty useful because it last so long so you can SH-Knee and then FF with the gimp. Usually the gimp is bad but I find it useful here because if you trip Olimar you have better options. Otherwise just play with your aerials and approaches and don't let him sense a pattern. It's ok to switch things up and use a tilt here and there as well just to keep him guessing.

The grab is probably your best tool though. Work Olimar over to an edge and then make grabbing him your number one priority. Once you have him throw him off the edge and then SH-ANYTHING to hit him. Seriously any move will work. The best situation you can have is to grab him with your back to the edge, then Bthrow into Bair -> DJ -> Bair -> Falcon Dive. If he doesn't air dodge it then you've just given yourself a great chance of killing him due to his gimp recovery. He'll be too low to knock you away from the edge with any aerials and after then second Bair you'll be able to beat him to the edge. SCORE! 1 KO for you. Now of course this won't work against all players or 100% of the time but it is a pretty solid tactic which will result in an easy KO for you if you pull it off. It seriously can work when he's around 40% so even if he only has 40% and you have 124% you just KOed him first and have the upper hand. Beating Olimar is all about gimping him when he's off the edge, and with Falcon it's thankfully not that hard to do. If Olimar had a non-tether recovery there would be almost no hope of beating him as Falcon but thanks to his tether combined with Falcon's above average edgeguarding skills you have a decent shot. You may still lose even with all of these tactics but at least they give you a shot (well they give me a shot at least).

I'm back! I'll be making the compilation post soon, gotta split real quick right now.

Anyway, this info I had all already discovered, excluding the raptor boost thing, that's awesome, just hadn't posted it yet. Especially love the throw > edgeguard, it works insanely well hehe.

 

[omfgomfg]

lol i challenge any falcon who thinks that game and watch is an easy matchup, please PM me as soon as possible if you would like to play

 

[KeyKid19]

I'm back! I'll be making the compilation post soon, gotta split real quick right now.

Anyway, this info I had all already discovered, excluding the raptor boost thing, that's awesome, just hadn't posted it yet. Especially love the throw > edgeguard, it works insanely well hehe.

Yeah I know we already had some Olimar stuff but I love to ramble on. lol I was just feeling so good about being able to take it to Olimar finally that I just felt like spewing everything I had observed. lol

BTW Welcome back!

 

[talkingbeatles]

lol i challenge any falcon who thinks that game and watch is an easy matchup, please PM me as soon as possible if you would like to play

I don't know anyone who thinks G&W is an easy fight for Falcon. When I fight G&W, I'm scared as hell.

 

[KeyKid19]

Game and Watch is not an easy matchup but there are certainly other characters who pose much greater problems for Falcon.

 

[Iwan]

I can't believe you would say dash dancing is not a useful technique. It might not be as good as it was in Melee, but it's definitely useful.

Having Raptor Boost and Hyphen Smashing out of dash dance is undeniably useful. If you haven't come to this realization, then you can stand to improve! Certainly it has less uses against certain match-ups, but that's only 20% or less of the characters.

Yea...i read that and was like "Uh? Not useful?"

Dash dancing is still without question a useful technique with certain characters. Marth and Falcon come to mind. The area that you actually dash dance in is smaller now than it was in melee, but even still...it's useful.

 

[KeyKid19]

Stage Strategies:

Pirate Ship: Get them in the water, then Dair. I'm pretty sure that you can infinite them to death if you don't miss. This is by far the most use Dair has in Brawl.

Green Hill Zone: Use Falcon's speed to ALWAYS reach the checkpoint things first. The hill on the right is great for gimp knee trips and other cool things. One thing I like to do is "chain" Dthrow from the bottom of the pit all the way up the right hill. To do this just grab, Dthrow, chase, then dashgrab and repeat. Can probably be broken if your opponent is expecting it but it usually works. I actually find the Dthrow "chain" useful in many instances because people don't expect it. However it can definitely be broken if on a flat surface. Decent mind game anyways though. Back to Green Hill Zone: Once the level breaks try and Raptor Boost spike people down the hole. SH-Raptor when standing next to the pit is great.

I'm pretty sure I have more but I forget what they are right now. lol

 

[Iwan]

Kirby is always a tough matchup for me...he's so short so approaching him is problematic. I dash attack and that's effective in getting him up in the air...but it's still a tough matchup that i tend to have trouble with.

 

[KeyKid19]

Kirby like Ike has a ridiculous UpB that can be used to stop all juggling. This poses a problem for Falcon and unlike Ike Kirby is short so there's another problem. I honestly haven't played against Kirby that much so I'm not sure I can help you out on this one but try and take advantage of Kirby's reach. Your Dtilt and Ftilt both have more range than almost all of his attacks, so try and use them a lot. Running A is always a nice option... Ummm... Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick are always useful against short characters. I dunno. Kirby shouldn't be that hard to edgeguard because he's really light and none of his aerials have that great of reach I'm pretty sure... Use Uair and reverse Uair for that. Bair is always good too. lol

Are there any specific areas besides approach that give you problems?

 

[Iwan]

Kirby like Ike has a ridiculous UpB that can be used to stop all juggling. This poses a problem for Falcon and unlike Ike Kirby is short so there's another problem. I honestly haven't played against Kirby that much so I'm not sure I can help you out on this one but try and take advantage of Kirby's reach. Your Dtilt and Ftilt both have more range than almost all of his attacks, so try and use them a lot. Running A is always a nice option... Ummm... Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick are always useful against short characters. I dunno. Kirby shouldn't be that hard to edgeguard because he's really light and none of his aerials have that great of reach I'm pretty sure... Use Uair and reverse Uair for that. Bair is always good too. lol

Are there any specific areas besides approach that give you problems?

Specifically, Kirby's edge guard (the flurry of punches) gives me problems. Even when attempting to jump over it, it can still gimp you (and even prevent you from grabbing the ledge sometimes).

I'm starting to get the hang of it though...i had never played a kirby with C. Falcon, but after a few matches I'm starting to realize you can't get kirby and the air and then "pursue pursue pursue" like you would with normal to heavy size characters. His down B and up B, like you mentioned, prevent me from juggling with u-airs/fair/bairs.

I guess i'm just learning how to play Kirby. This new, thoroughly frustrating opponent .

 

[Sasurai_no_Hiroshi]

This is rather embarassing but I seem to have serious trouble against Wolf players who constantly spam F-Smash and D-Smash. He baits me in with that lazer, and then spams F-Smash to keep me away. If I get knocked onto the ground and try to hit him, he uses D-Smash to hurt me bad.

Usually my offense consists of grabing him, D-Throw > Dash Attack > Rapid Jabs and maybe even a Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost afterwards, but approaching him is the biggest problem for me.

Is there an easier way to approach Wolf besides jumping, air-dodge, shield, and then grabbing him? Or maybe someone could explain that method a little better?

 

[Mann]

Is there an easier way to approach Wolf besides jumping, air-dodge, shield, and then grabbing him? Or maybe someone could explain that method a little better?

No. Your options are limited to SHAD's, rolls, and not picking Final Destination. Seriously, spamming gets lame.

You're going to have to always roll away out of range from his Fsmash/Dsmash. It comes out too kick for any moves to stop him in between except for Aerials. If you knock him up once, you are forced to keep on him and predict/punish your opponent, if not, the game is going to be repetitive.

By the way Sasu, my AIM Screen name is in my profile.

Specifically, Kirby's edge guard (the flurry of punches) gives me problems. Even when attempting to jump over it, it can still gimp you (and even prevent you from grabbing the ledge sometimes).

I guess i'm just learning how to play Kirby. This new, thoroughly frustrating opponent .

My baby bro loves to pick on me with his Kirby. If you hang on the edge and he's spamming his punches, just roll. One of your best attacks with Falcon against Kirby is his dash attack, as you are able to lead into U-airs a lot more easier than his throws.

Don't be fooled by his dash attack either. Just hold shield all the way through.

 

[KeyKid19]

Ok so I'm having a really tough time against Ice Climbers. Even the computer is making me work (and that's really sad). Real Ice Climbers mains (like Blackanese who is simply ridiculous with them) are even more problematic. Seriously not being able to utilize grabbing at all really leaves my ground game lacking, and I never can get very far with my air game.

Anyone else have problems with these eggplant eaters?

 

[Runeblade279]

Bleargh!! I'm back again!

Just finished the newest update, should all be there.

Once again, if my info is blatantly wrong, or I missed something, or didn't note something as contributed by whoever, please correct me and I shall address it ASAP. =)

And Keykid, sorry but I haven't fought any good ICs. The computer is kinda tough tho, what I found is it's easiest to see if you can seperate them, even if you have to pound on the computer controlled one and inflict no damage to get it away. Dunno if that's helpful against a player. =/

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

This is rather embarassing but I seem to have serious trouble against Wolf players who constantly spam F-Smash and D-Smash. He baits me in with that lazer, and then spams F-Smash to keep me away. If I get knocked onto the ground and try to hit him, he uses D-Smash to hurt me bad.

Usually my offense consists of grabing him, D-Throw > Dash Attack > Rapid Jabs and maybe even a Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost afterwards, but approaching him is the biggest problem for me.

Is there an easier way to approach Wolf besides jumping, air-dodge, shield, and then grabbing him? Or maybe someone could explain that method a little better?

Initial dash => Perfect Shield => Dash => Perfect Shield => Dash WTF OMG YOUR NRIGHT NEXT TO ME => Grab

I scare the **** out of my friends with this lol. Try to perfect shield the lasers and dash immediately after. I hope the people you're fighting doesn't expect this and smash you... either way, you can probably spot dodge or shield it.

The range for Wolf's smashes are kinda tricky.

 

[Runeblade279]

Initial dash => Perfect Shield => Dash => Perfect Shield => Dash WTF OMG YOUR NRIGHT NEXT TO ME => Grab

I scare the **** out of my friends with this lol. Try to perfect shield the lasers and dash immediately after. I hope the people you're fighting doesn't expect this and smash you... either way, you can probably spot dodge or shield it.

The range for Wolf's smashes are kinda tricky.

I've done this as well. XD

It's not as easy as the other approach in the thread, but it's funny. Sometimes he sees it coming and Fsmashes, but I shield it, then hit him with a tilt. Great stuff.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Ok so I'm having a really tough time against Ice Climbers. Even the computer is making me work (and that's really sad). Real Ice Climbers mains (like Blackanese who is simply ridiculous with them) are even more problematic. Seriously not being able to utilize grabbing at all really leaves my ground game lacking, and I never can get very far with my air game.

Anyone else have problems with these eggplant eaters?

Hell yeah especially when they spam ice blocks. I've beaten level nine ice climbers easily but when i face a human player it is really tough. Its very hard to grab them since nana will just hit you out of the grab. The best thing i would say is kill nana but that really doesn't do much since popo will be on your ***. Anymore tips?

 

[KeyKid19]

Is there anyway we can get this stickied? I come back from time to time to look at this thread and it always requires searching through the pages of posts.

Anyone know how to go about getting this thing stickied?

 

[Reaver197]

Pray that a mod some day year comes in and actually looks for sticky requests.

 

[Runeblade279]

Well it wouldn't be a problem if I had some information to update..

But I don't.

I should work on that.. Maybe do what that Ike guy did. For Olimar instead though. =(

 

[Tenki]

Ok so I'm having a really tough time against Ice Climbers. Even the computer is making me work (and that's really sad). Real Ice Climbers mains (like Blackanese who is simply ridiculous with them) are even more problematic. Seriously not being able to utilize grabbing at all really leaves my ground game lacking, and I never can get very far with my air game.

Anyone else have problems with these eggplant eaters?

Definitely go after Nana. Separate them and attack with Nana as your primary target. In the IC boards, I asked what IC players do if people go after Nana - after a while, they start to actively defend Nana, and that could make it easier to predict them. At the end of it, if you can knock them away at the same time and Nana has more damage, the sudden gap can gimp an unsuspecting IC. If you simply kill Nana first, SoPo (Solo Popo) will play defensively/harder to KO, so doing a surprise "HA, NOW YOU'RE TOO FAR!" is probably better.

Is there anyway we can get this stickied? I come back from time to time to look at this thread and it always requires searching through the pages of posts.

Anyone know how to go about getting this thing stickied?

On a random note, I didn't know this thread even existed.