Falcon's Worst Matchups - Strategizing Time *Updated 4/14/08, Zelda, Kirby, Sonic*

[IWuvGeno]

I just lost to a pretty average Game & Watch, and that really was a big blow to my pride.

I couldn't find an opening anywhere. All of his moves take supreme priority over poor Falcon, and I was getting tossed over and over. Nothing works to take priority over his moves.... Side B is completely useless (one of my favorite mind-game moves). Falcon Kick gets denied every time....

Your tilts are really your only option here, and even then it's a futile battle. I started improvising and using about 3 or 4 Falcon punches per game... to some avail. If the player was better he probably could have taken advantage of the lag after the punches more effectively. And here I was still being tossed like a rag-doll to his predictable, yet unstoppable antics. Whenever G&W starts his down A key move, you have no choice but to get as far away as possible. I tried hitting him from every angle while in the air... of course, only to get tossed. On the landing frames after G&W finishes, there is a small invisible 'explosion', preventing me from punishing. His aerials came out impossibly fast, obviously having the higher priority.

Most battles now feel decently fair, or that I could have done something differently to succeed. This one, however, was just stupid. He usually had one stock by the end, but if he was better, it probably would have been a massacre. Why is it that Brawl has to favor childish nonsense over skill.......? Horribly imbalanced.



Add one more to the HORRIBLE match-ups.

 

[Mann]

Hmm I haven't had the same experience with you. The G&W players I have played against were pretty horrid, as I was able to to shield grab a lot. I don't know how you handled it, but I believe Uairs still are one of the best ways to go.

 

[Ayato]

I don't have a bad history with G&W either. He doesn't have much range, so try making him move around a bit. Play campy, and if he refuses to chase, feint at him for a while and throw out a raptor boost or falcon kick after like 4 or 5 feints. from there just utilt>uair combo. G&W's air moves are good, but the startup is bleh on them. Your bair, uair, and nair are all faster than G&W's most useful air attacks, at least to my experience. Approaching G&W from above shouldn't be too difficult, either. Going high for backside hits with your bair would work as a decent start. Dthrow is still a good starter, but you'll have to play mindgames into it obviously because of the low hitlag. He can either airdodge or release an air attack before you can follow up, no matter how fast you are, so wait a tick and then slam him with uairs. You really just need one opportunity to start a uair juggle and you should be fine. Shield grab, tech and dash grab, backside assault, whatever you can think of to just get a single clear hit on him. Once you have him on his toes, he has a hard time coming back. Just watch out for his dair. The rest you should be able to outprioritize with uair.

Olimar is my bane with CF. I don't use Falcon anymore when my brother plays Olimar because he just camps and I can't do jack about it. Falcon Kick gets slowed too much on the approach vs thrown Pikmin. Raptor Boost gets cancelled by thrown Pikmin. Approaching from above is out of the question. Dash attacks are also out. I get thrown even if I manage to dodge my way into attacking range. His defense is impenetrable to Falcon.

 

[IWuvGeno]

I think that some of these tips you guys have been giving might come in handy. I still think that a good G&W is bad news for Falcon.

Camping G&W is possible. He does have a 'range' attack, without much range.

More research needed.

 

[Runeblade279]

Ok so I just finished playing a very nice ZSS in a Wi-Fi series (which I won 2/3!) and I have some notes about things I noticed in the match.

First off the beginning of the match is crucial. Dodge the parts that will come hurling your way and then pick them up and use them against ZSS. If the ZSS shields you are thankfully fast enough to be able to run up and pick up the part before she can unshield and run up and grab it. So Falcon's speed is REALLY handy in this circumstance (take that Ike and Ganondorf supporters!). In all three matches I was able to utilize the broken parts more effectively than the ZSS simply because I was so much faster on the ground. By the way Falcon feels great with a "projectile." Too bad they will never give him one!!!! Argh so sad. Anyways *ahem* so the parts phase of the match is crucial because it's a great opportunity to get ahead of the ZSS right off the bat. In the first match I played I already had ZSS in Falcon's killzone by the time the parts were gone so it was easy from there to get a quick KO with only like 25% damage on me.

Once the parts are gone then you have to focus on watching the whip. ZSS's Fsmash is very laggy and give you enough time to strike even if you normal shield it. Muffed grab has ridiculously bad lag so Falcon Punch that hoe when she misses. I didn't realize how right Runeblade was about watching out for the DownB -> Kick until I got demolished by it multiple times. I saw the DownB hop as a perfect time to strike but it is not and you have to be careful about any approach you make during it. It's safer to just bait ZSS into using it by doing a shorthop and then just do a Running A into her as soon as she lands.

Anyways Runeblade already has good info which I found useful against ZSS so I won't ramble on anymore about her. One last thing though is that you must not be afraid to dodge and play defensively. That's the ONLY way to beat ZSS. Just wait for an opportunity to strike because they will come if you play smart. Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick both clink the stun gun shot and they are generally good approaches against ZSS anyways (especially if you stand far enough to bait her into doing a long charge her charge gun and then surprise her with a Falcon Kick to the ovaries). So yeah just watch for the Usmash because it spikes (I actually died from its spike once because she was RIGHT on the edge and caught me with the outside of it so I was toast). SHE CAN ALMOST INFINITE COMBO YOU ON MELEE CORNERIA if she spams it from below the wing while you are on top of it. Trust me I was stuck in it for a while and took a LOT of damage in the process. So don't let her get under you if you're on the top of the wing on Melee Corneria.

I really wish I had videos from those three matches I just played. They were seriously probably the most entertaining matches I've had with Brawl thusfar, and they also showed off Falcon well.

Oh by the way I also played a Ganondorf main earlier who seemed pretty good with him and I wiped the floor with him in both matches as Falcon. The match proved to me that Ganondorf's DownB is NOT as good as Falcon's and his UpB is NOT EVEN CLOSE to as good as Falcon's. I had no problems edgeguarding him because with one hit he was out of recovery range. Also he is SO slow and actually comboable at Battlefield (and I suck at Battlefield). I think my combo on him was Running A -> SH-Uair -> Sweetspot Knee. After the Running A he popped up onto the left platform and was lying on the ground since he couldn't tech it and then the Uair poped him right up into Knee range. Also since he has the distinct disadvantage of having a large frame (unlike Falcon) I was able to sweetspot him easily on multiple occasions.

So yeah Falcon > Ganondorf. I know my opponent wasn't the best player but Ganondorf definitely has more severe disadvantages than Falcon.

Yeah those suit parts are lol. Down+B has invicibility frames, don't try to hit her out of it heh, i'll add that in the next update.

As for all discussion on G&W so far, I've never faced a good one either, but he's not terribly hard to approach if you use dashing shield > grab/tilt, that's usually a good one, always mix it up though.

As for Ganondorf / Falcon debate, I'm rather tired of seeing Ganondorf > Falcon or Falcon > Ganondorf, they're much more different characters in Brawl, each with their own advantages, disadvantages, and drastically different playstyles. Ganon's fair is a piece of ****, I prefer the knee any day, at least it doesn't have landing lag off of a DOUBLE JUMP. Conversely, Ganon's dair owns Falcon's, short hopping is way more useful, it's a killing move, it's got good priority, it's a mix-up after Ganon's sexy side+B, etc.

Different characters, different advantages, can both be played well.

Oh but Ganon's Up+B is horrible. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[Reaver197]

By the way, ZSS spike move is her up-B, not Upsmash. If you can accurately time a good priority move, like bair or uair, you can clink with her up-B and completely cancel out its hitboxes. I wonder if Falcon kick might produce the same result, but, eh, haven't had to play a ZSS in a while.

And, during her down-B kick, you can hit her upper body/head without worry, creating a nice little frame of opportunity for an accurate knee.

Wi-fi battle doesn't strike me as the best way to play in terms of really seeing what character match-ups are like.

Falco might be a character to keep an eye on. I hear he's pretty good at ground control between his lasers and shine, and that his aerials have pretty good priority.

 

[Runeblade279]

By the way, ZSS spike move is her up-B, not Upsmash. If you can accurately time a good priority move, like bair or uair, you can clink with her up-B and completely cancel out its hitboxes. I wonder if Falcon kick might produce the same result, but, eh, haven't had to play a ZSS in a while.

And, during her down-B kick, you can hit her upper body/head without worry, creating a nice little frame of opportunity for an accurate knee.

Wi-fi battle doesn't strike me as the best way to play in terms of really seeing what character match-ups are like.

Falco might be a character to keep an eye on. I hear he's pretty good at ground control between his lasers and shine, and that his aerials have pretty good priority.

Yeah Falco's the worst of the spacies for Falcon to go up against imo, his shine is so *****in'.

But I haven't fought him much, so I don't have anything concrete.

 

[KeyKid19]

Yeah you're right it's ZSS' UpB not Usmash. My bad.

In regards to Wi-Fi it isn't the perfect setup but unless you have 34 friends who all main different characters and are all very good with them, you'll never experience all of the matchups.

Game and Watch is indeed dangerous. However like someone else said I found Shield grabbing to be a very nice tool. He may have random moves with odd hitboxes and ranges, but generally if you can make him miss he isn't that fast on the recovery. Oh and yeah the best thing to do against the Dair key is to act like it's Young Link's, Shiek's, Sonic's or ZSS' Dair. Jump up for the chase to bait them into it, then air dodge and fast fall into a knee. Works great everytime.

 

[IWuvGeno]

Game and Watch is indeed dangerous. However like someone else said I found Shield grabbing to be a very nice tool. He may have random moves with odd hitboxes and ranges, but generally if you can make him miss he isn't that fast on the recovery. Oh and yeah the best thing to do against the Dair key is to act like it's Young Link's, Shiek's, Sonic's or ZSS' Dair. Jump up for the chase to bait them into it, then air dodge and fast fall into a knee. Works great everytime.

I really just haven't played him enough to form counter-strategies. I'll admit I drew conclusions too fast. The air dodge into knee maneuver sounds amazing!

 

[PhillipthaGoober]

I hate squirtle

 

[Reaver197]

Eh, so Falco has a chain throw that seems to work on heavier characters.

 

[IWuvGeno]

I just went 2-3 against a fairly good Pit. Felt good to be that close.

The SHAD technique is great for dodging that last arrow and grabbing him almost instantly afterwards. The last battle we were stock for stock and 150%-ish. At that point I was having a really hard time trying to squeak one last kill move in. I wonder what works best in that case for falcon?

 

[Mann]

SHAD technique?

On smaller stages the only problem I have with a Pit would be his forward B. On stages like FD, it just gets annoying.

 

[Runeblade279]

I just went 2-3 against a fairly good Pit. Felt good to be that close.

The SHAD technique is great for dodging that last arrow and grabbing him almost instantly afterwards. The last battle we were stock for stock and 150%-ish. At that point I was having a really hard time trying to squeak one last kill move in. I wonder what works best in that case for falcon?

Hit him with a uair somewhere near one of the edges, it usually kills if it isn't stale.

SHAD technique?

On smaller stages the only problem I have with a Pit would be his forward B. On stages like FD, it just gets annoying.

Short Hop Air Dodge. Press Z after a short hop right before you hit the ground, you'll dodge and land immediately and grab right out of it. More reliable than dashing shield for falcon cause his inital dash is so long.

There's a thread in tactical discussion about it, but I'm too lazy to link. XP

 

[Ayato]

Still annoyed by Lolimar here. Most obnoxious character ever. The strategies here and my own improvised ones aren't getting me any ground.

 

[.kR0]

Falco.

Lasers, chainthrow till 60%, high priority moves (tilts, jab, nair, fair, bair), better smashes.

 

[KeyKid19]

So I just got owned by a Pit. Well not owned but I got beat and never felt in control at any point in any of the matches. So yeah good Pit users pose problems for Falcon. Now I'm back here looking for tips. lol

 

[the_powner]

i need sonic help and i can take on any charater but sonic just gets me some how with his roll attacks its hard to tell which move hes doing

 

[talkingbeatles]

Honestly, I haven't gone against a good pit, so I can't offer advice there, but for Sonic, I would look at the fight like I look at most fights...
just get under him and uair him to death. Also I imagine down tilts and falcon kicks would be your
friend(s).

 

[bluebomber22]

interesting analysis. i wanna what youguyshave to say about the falcon vs zelda matchup....

 

[Mann]

interesting analysis. i wanna what youguyshave to say about the falcon vs zelda matchup....

Rarely have I seen anyone play Zelda over online play. None of the people at my college play her. I'll get back to you after my brothers and I work something out. Isn't she worse than she was in Melee as well? Or did they change something?

 

[.kR0]

Zelda got a huge buff.

Her >B has a huge hitbox now and is a incredibly good camping projectile. Not to mention she can b-stick it for spacing mindgames. Her smashes all have better range/speed/priority than most of Falcon's moves. Her uptilts crazy and her nair is solid. She can easily rack up dmg with >B, or upsmash->uptilt at low percentage->nair. Her dsmash is crazy fast and sends you in a horribly bad angle (horizontally low)

The only thing she doesn't have is a really good early kill move besides her bair/fair, but those two got incredibly hard to sweetspot with. You can easily live up to about 130%ish without too much fear of dying.

The good thing Falcon has on her is that he can upair juggle her incredibly well since her dair is atrocious. She also falls slow and is somewhat light.

She'll probably **** you in Final D. But then, any good player using a projectile character would wreck falcon there.

 

[Reaver197]

Zelda is considerably buffed from Melee. Her side-B is very good now, with considerable knockback and range. Plus, Zelda's smashes last a while and deal a good bit of damage. Her sweetspot kick is fairly spammable by her, since it actually has good range.

Beating Zelda is just being sure to dodge the side-B's (which isn't too difficult), and being careful to shield and time your hits around her fairly high priority smashes.

I never had too much trouble with a Zelda.

 

[.kR0]

I never had too much trouble with a Zelda.

Well, you know, you are fighting THAT guy... (no offense to him)

I'll play you with Zelda and it might be a different story.

 

[bluebomber22]

Rarely have I seen anyone play Zelda over online play. None of the people at my college play her. I'll get back to you after my brothers and I work something out. Isn't she worse than she was in Melee as well? Or did they change something?

read below to see my experiences with fighting zeldas.

Zelda got a huge buff.

Her >B has a huge hitbox now and is a incredibly good camping projectile. Not to mention she can b-stick it for spacing mindgames. Her smashes all have better range/speed/priority than most of Falcon's moves. Her uptilts crazy and her nair is solid. She can easily rack up dmg with >B, or upsmash->uptilt at low percentage->nair. Her dsmash is crazy fast and sends you in a horribly bad angle (horizontally low)

The only thing she doesn't have is a really good early kill move besides her bair/fair, but those two got incredibly hard to sweetspot with. You can easily live up to about 130%ish without too much fear of dying.

The good thing Falcon has on her is that he can upair juggle her incredibly well since her dair is atrocious. She also falls slow and is somewhat light.

She'll probably **** you in Final D. But then, any good player using a projectile character would wreck falcon there.

i agree with everything you said. I recently played my friend and he 3 stocked with her when i had cf. every other character he chose i won.

i think the problem is that its very hard to be offensive against a good zelda player because she has SO much more priority than cf. and her moves last incredibly long. and they push you back even when shielded so shield grabbing is difficult. Then again if you try to be patient you'll have din's fire comin at you nonstop. You can falcon kick under it but a good player will see it coming. I think the only way to go is try and make her miss, then punish

 

[KeyKid19]

Keys to Zelda:

1. Beware Smashes and Bair (WHICH WHEN SWEETSPOTTED IS BETTER THAN THE KNEE!! HOW STUPID IS THAT?)

2. Always be ready to dodge Din's Fire no matter where you are. It is seriously a ridiculously overpowered move now.

If you play with those things in mind, you will win.

 

[.kR0]

Keys to Zelda:

1. Beware Smashes and Bair (WHICH WHEN SWEETSPOTTED IS BETTER THAN THE KNEE!! HOW STUPID IS THAT?)

2. Always be ready to dodge Din's Fire no matter where you are. It is seriously a ridiculously overpowered move now.

If you play with those things in mind, you will win.

As long as the guy you're playing against isn't ********, yes.

But ofcourse, a good Zelda player would be incredibly hard for Falcon to win against. She can pull off the nastiest hit and run game.

-A smart Zelda would bait rolls, spotdodge and SHADs and do a quick dashcancel upsmash->uptilt
-She can also use nB and send you flying back if you try to keep the pressure on for too long.
-Her recovery is hard to gimp.
-She'll ledgehop fair if you try camping her near the ledge.
-She'll mix up retreating djinn fire with short hop approaches. Not to mention she can approach you with pretty much a djinn shield (short hop with no charge Djinn makes the fire exploade right in front of her)
-She can jab->dsmash depending if only the first jab hit lands (I think)

 

[IWuvGeno]

Lucas is another bad matchup. I need more practice against him.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I still don't know if we have any good pikachu advice yet. That pokemon is brutal.
Also,
(randomly)
how do you guys feel about Skyworld?

 

[KeyKid19]

As long as the guy you're playing against isn't ********, yes.

But ofcourse, a good Zelda player would be incredibly hard for Falcon to win against. She can pull off the nastiest hit and run game.

-A smart Zelda would bait rolls, spotdodge and SHADs and do a quick dashcancel upsmash->uptilt
-She can also use nB and send you flying back if you try to keep the pressure on for too long.
-Her recovery is hard to gimp.
-She'll ledgehop fair if you try camping her near the ledge.
-She'll mix up retreating djinn fire with short hop approaches. Not to mention she can approach you with pretty much a djinn shield (short hop with no charge Djinn makes the fire exploade right in front of her)
-She can jab->dsmash depending if only the first jab hit lands (I think)

I think her recovery is one of her worst moves personally. Sure it goes really far but I find it very easy to punish. Sure it is somewhat difficult to edgeguard her when she uses it but all you have to do is knock her off, edgehog so that she MUST use her UpB, and then climb up and if she reappeared close to you charge a Fsmash and if she is somewhat far away use your beast running speed to sliding Usmash her. Then she's off the edge again and you can do the same thing. I really don't get how you see her recovery as an advantage.

Din's Fire is good but if you find it to be more than slightly problematic then you don't know how to dodge or shield. The lag of you non-perfect shielding a Din's Fire is about the same as the lag she gets after releasing it. So you can appraoch -> shield -> appraoch -> shield until you get close to her and then she'll stop. If she uses it as a close tactic you can roll through and Dsmash.

"-A smart Zelda would bait rolls, spotdodge and SHADs and do a quick dashcancel upsmash->uptilt"

A smart Falcon would bait Zelda. Any good player baits their opponent. That doesn't make their character good, that just makes them a good player.

"-She'll ledgehop fair if you try camping her near the ledge."

Don't camp her near the ledge then.

 

[.kR0]

You know she can hit you with her upB even when you're on the edge right?

And Falcon can't bait Zelda. How do you plan to do that without a projectile and dashdancing?

Even if you manage to get close, non of your moves comes out faster than Zelda's dsmash/upsmash/jab/ftilt. Good luck trying to hit her with your dsmash or pretty much any move actually. Try approaching a "B-sticking" Zelda doing her retreating Djinn, you can't dodge all of the >B and even if you did, you pretty much played right into the players hand, they'll just dashcancel upsmash you and roll away.

The only thing Falcon has over Zelda is his upair juggles and that she has a ****ty dair.

 

[KeyKid19]

You know she can hit you with her upB even when you're on the edge right?

And Falcon can't bait Zelda. How do you plan to do that without a projectile and dashdancing?

Even if you manage to get close, non of your moves comes out faster than Zelda's dsmash/upsmash/jab/ftilt. Good luck trying to hit her with your dsmash or pretty much any move actually. Try approaching a "B-sticking" Zelda doing her retreating Djinn, you can't dodge all of the >B and even if you did, you pretty much played right into the players hand, they'll just dashcancel upsmash you and roll away.

The only thing Falcon has over Zelda is his upair juggles and that she has a ****ty dair.

That's why you start crawling up right before she is close enough to use it. Just like with EVERY other character that you use edgehogging against. This is ridiculously easy because Zelda doesn't sweetspot the edge very often with her UpB so she will be falling down right into your fist now that you've crawled up onto the stage. I thought that it was obvious that you would do this so I didn't specify before but I guess doing the usual technique to not get hit is somehow not routine enough to be assumed.

Space and bait her into Din's Fire, then Falcon Kick. Works EVERY time. By the way Falcon CAN dash dance still. Also by your logic Falcon can't bait anyone, which is totally incorrect. Every character can bait every other character. It's called mindgames. Dash towards her, make her think you're going to sliding Usmash or Running A her, then full jump over her and if she attack, Bair her. That's just one of the countless examples of baiting and punishing a character.

Honestly as I've said before Din's Fire is not that hard to dodge. Retreating and using it at the same time is not that great of a tactic against Falcon because he's so fast and can be on her before she recovers from the big lag that follows the move. I've seen Zelda users do this many times and honestly I don't have any problems with it. So I guess that's your problem.

Also why would you ever try and use Dsmash against anyone without using it as a punishing device? That's just dumb play. Why not try using tilts, aerials, and the A combo against her? That's what people win against Zelda do. Also if the player keeps sliding Usmashing you then use your shield.

Honestly I don't really see how you think Zelda is so hard. Fighting her is like fighting Ike except that she doesn't have as good of a reach. Someone that's as slow as Ike with less reach should honestly not be hard for a speedy punisher like Falcon. Personally I love it when people use Zelda instead of Sheik because Sheik is a LOT harder to fight against than Zelda. Sheik is almost as fast of a runner as Falcon and has less laggy moves. Too bad he doesn't have any kill moves because if he did he would be a beast. Zelda can kill but her kill moves are too slow and punishable.

 

[.kR0]

You make me look like if I think Zelda is her worst match-up. I already stated Falco would be his worst.

You know its nearly impossible to shield her fsmash/upsmash. Not to mention the moment your shield goes down by her smashes, she'll dsmash you. And all of her smashes have no lag. Just go to practice mode and see how friggin fast her fsmash->upsmash fsmash->dsmash is. Try doing any of your ground "punishers" on her and you'll get outprioritized 90% of the time with her ftilt which has better priority and faster than every single one of your ground tilts. Your jabs are fast and annoying, but annoying at best. She can easily nB you once Zelda starts floating up by the jabs and send you away for more Djinn fire.

And Falcon Kick doesn't work every time. That's just dumb. You might get her once at most. All she has to do is let the djinn go off in front of her and it'll clank with Falcon's kick. And its a good thing since Falcon would be usually be out of range to do anything really useful ground-wise.

And a empty dash->full jump bair over a players head is not a effective mindgame. How long do you think that ****'s being going on for now? Not to mention Falcon's bair got nerfed.

And don't compare Zelda with Ike. Thats probably the dumbest **** I heard today. What do they have in common? Zelda has a projectile, Ike doesn't. Ike has slow, powerful smashes. Zelda has fast, and long lasting smashes. Ike's jabs are great. Zelda's jabs are decent. Ike's aerials all have ridiculously good range and can kill. Zelda's aerials have **** range (besides her upair) and all require some sort of sweetspot. Ike's grabs doesn't kill or combo that effectively or can't be used that well for spacing. Zelda has a kill option with bthrow and can put opponent in a good place with dthrow/upthrow for upair/running upsmash.

I play both Zelda and Ike (I also use Falco, meta, ZSS a lot). And I can beat Falcon's much easier as Zelda than Ike. Ike can only rely on keeping pressure with nair->jabs as not to get punished. Zelda has the ability to pretty much spam incredibly safe ground moves and keep pressure on without the fear of getting punished.

By the way Falcon CAN dash dance still.

Every character can. Is it useful in Brawl? No.

 

[KeyKid19]

You make me look like if I think Zelda is her worst match-up. I already stated Falco would be his worst.

You know its nearly impossible to shield her fsmash/upsmash. Not to mention the moment your shield goes down by her smashes, she'll dsmash you. And all of her smashes have no lag. Just go to practice mode and see how friggin fast her fsmash->upsmash fsmash->dsmash is. Try doing any of your ground "punishers" on her and you'll get outprioritized 90% of the time with her ftilt which has better priority and faster than every single one of your ground tilts. Your jabs are fast and annoying, but annoying at best. She can easily nB you once Zelda starts floating up by the jabs and send you away for more Djinn fire.

And Falcon Kick doesn't work every time. That's just dumb. You might get her once at most. All she has to do is let the djinn go off in front of her and it'll clank with Falcon's kick. And its a good thing since Falcon would be usually be out of range to do anything really useful ground-wise.

And a empty dash->full jump bair over a players head is not a effective mindgame. How long do you think that ****'s being going on for now? Not to mention Falcon's bair got nerfed.

And don't compare Zelda with Ike. Thats probably the dumbest **** I heard today. What do they have in common? Zelda has a projectile, Ike doesn't. Ike has slow, powerful smashes. Zelda has fast, and long lasting smashes. Ike's jabs are great. Zelda's jabs are decent. Ike's aerials all have ridiculously good range and can kill. Zelda's aerials have **** range (besides her upair) and all require some sort of sweetspot. Ike's grabs doesn't kill or combo that effectively or can't be used that well for spacing. Zelda has a kill option with bthrow and can put opponent in a good place with dthrow/upthrow for upair/running upsmash.

You make Zelda seem like she has the power of Ganondorf and the lack of lag of Metaknight. You said that Falcon's one advantage is his Uair. Seriously? I use probably all of his moves during a Zelda match, and Uair is not the most frequent by any means. If anything I use Bair a lot.

Fsmash is not hard to shield. If you let up too early you'll get hit but besides that it's easy to see coming. In fact I usually just roll behind her when I see Fsmash coming and Ftilt her then chase with Running A. Works great. Her moves don't have a lot of lag after but if you dodge them she is a sitting duck because of how long they last. Also you don't use a punisher unless you know she can't react in time to do anything about it, so your clinking point doesn't really apply to my strategy against her. A combo is still effective if you don't do the fists of fury.

Falcon Kick DOES work everytime if you space correctly. You don't use it right when she starts Din's Fire, but after it's almost to you. Falcon Kick is fast enough on the startup and slides fast enough that the Zelda player won't react in time. Trust me, this works. I've used it against every Zelda I've ever faced and as long as you don't do it the same way everytime so that they anticipate it you will get them with it.

It's an effective mindgame if you are facing an aggressive Zelda because once again her moves last so long that they are punishable (especially by this tactic).

Zelda is like Ike because both have similar total move times. Their longest sections are just in different places. Zelda and Ike are also both slow runners. Zelda and Ike are also prone to being punished. Zelda and Ike also have very punishable recoveries (edgeguarding Ike and doing the Zelda UpB thing that I mentioned before). They both can be played against with an almost identical mindset. Ike and Zelda both are bad in the air against Falcon and you can do the same things against both of them in the air. Honestly I don't really see how they're that different. Their move properties and knockbacks are different like you said but honestly they can be fought the same way.

Also the Bair is Falcon's best aerial kill option. I would hardly call it nerfed.

I still maintain that Zelda is not that hard of a matchup and that Sheik is a drastically harder one.

 

[.kR0]

You make Zelda seem like she has the power of Ganondorf and the lack of lag of Metaknight. You said that Falcon's one advantage is his Uair. Seriously? I use probably all of his moves during a Zelda match, and Uair is not the most frequent by any means. If anything I use Bair a lot.

Fsmash is not hard to shield. If you let up too early you'll get hit but besides that it's easy to see coming. In fact I usually just roll behind her when I see Fsmash coming and Ftilt her then chase with Running A. Works great. Her moves don't have a lot of lag after but if you dodge them she is a sitting duck because of how long they last. Also you don't use a punisher unless you know she can't react in time to do anything about it, so your clinking point doesn't really apply to my strategy against her. A combo is still effective if you don't do the fists of fury.

Falcon Kick DOES work everytime if you space correctly. You don't use it right when she starts Din's Fire, but after it's almost to you. Falcon Kick is fast enough on the startup and slides fast enough that the Zelda player won't react in time. Trust me, this works. I've used it against every Zelda I've ever faced and as long as you don't do it the same way everytime so that they anticipate it you will get them with it.

It's an effective mindgame if you are facing an aggressive Zelda because once again her moves last so long that they are punishable (especially by this tactic).

Zelda is like Ike because both have similar total move times. Their longest sections are just in different places. Zelda and Ike are also both slow runners. Zelda and Ike are also prone to being punished. Zelda and Ike also have very punishable recoveries (edgeguarding Ike and doing the Zelda UpB thing that I mentioned before). They both can be played against with an almost identical mindset. Ike and Zelda both are bad in the air against Falcon and you can do the same things against both of them in the air. Honestly I don't really see how they're that different. Their move properties and knockbacks are different like you said but honestly they can be fought the same way.

Also the Bair is Falcon's best aerial kill option. I would hardly call it nerfed.

I still maintain that Zelda is not that hard of a matchup and that Sheik is a drastically harder one.

There are so many things wrong here that I find it comical. Just by the first paragraph I find like everything wrong.

And you're absolutely out of your mind if you think bair didn't get nerfed. His best kill option is his dsmash only because rolls are much more prominent in spacing. You know that a guy is going to roll->dsmash. Kills at 90%ish. His bair doesn't have much power (and considering diminishing returns, it does even worse), has **** range, and **** priority. No good hitstun too unlike in melee so a shielding opponent can pivot grab you 100% of the time.

Falcon doesn't go flying like half of Final D like he did in melee with his short hop. He can't easily get behind opponents with a full jump and close enough to bair as long as the opponent isn't being ********.

I can point out like 20 more errors in your reasoning. But they're so obvious that any reasonably smart person will see it instantly.

The only thing I will agree with you is that Sheik is good against capt. Falcon. More than Zelda, but I highly doubt its that drastic. I mean Capt. Falcon is like mid-tierish atm. Its not that hard to beat a Falcon with a lot of the characters.

 

[.kR0]

Honestly.

Spacies, Pit, Lucas, Shiek, Toon, Snake, Marth, Metaknight, Olimar hands down is a "better" character atm. Thats already 11 characters thats incredibly hard for falcon to beat. Whoever Falcon can "counter" well, some other character can probably do better.

Falcon is a cool character and all and just because you can beat some mediocre player doesn't make the character itself better.

 

[Mann]

The confusion keeps coming in when trying to add the factor of player skill to statistics.

Not statistics, but... someone give me a term here.

 

[IWuvGeno]

Every character can [Dash Dance]. Is it useful in Brawl? No.

I can't believe you would say dash dancing is not a useful technique. It might not be as good as it was in Melee, but it's definitely useful.

Having Raptor Boost and Hyphen Smashing out of dash dance is undeniably useful. If you haven't come to this realization, then you can stand to improve! Certainly it has less uses against certain match-ups, but that's only 20% or less of the characters.

 

[Mann]

I believe one of the reasons that .kR0 says it's not useful is because of how much harder it is, with tripping added in, it can be a hazard. The dash dancing is just harder to control. There are much more useful and dependable techniques to use in mindgames other than dash dancing now.

 

[IWuvGeno]

DD isn't terribly hard to perform (I execute it every time) and it has roughly a 5% chance of failure. That's about 1 in 20. I can't see why anyone would call it useless... a move with a 5% chance of failure has never been called useless on those numbers alone.